Bret Hart is crazy to moan about Hogan in 93

[harrythem]

Bret Hart has, for years, been one of wrestling championship level moaners. He was pretty good at it while he was active but his moaning about the past has increased massively since he retired. One of my real bugbears with Bret moaning is about Hulk Hogan not putting him over in 1993.

I really think Bret should be thanking his lucky stars he didn't come up against Hogan in 1993. Hogan, for pretty much his entire career, has been THE master crowd manipulator. Look at him against Warrior at WM6 and, even more famously, against The Rock at WM18. Hogan managed to make sure that the true star of each match was Hogan and he sure didn't do anything to help his opponent (which really shows that Stonecold was right to turn down the chance to wrestle Hogan at WM18, Austin was clearly wise to Hogans tricks and knew Hogan would show him up at Mania).

Could you imagine Bret Hart, still new to the main event scene in early 1993 and nowhere near confident enough on the microphone trying to have an even match with Hogan? It wouldn't have happened. Bret would've been severely damaged by having a match with Hogan, possibly to the point that he wouldn't have become the star of the level that he was (Hogan's that awesome at crowd mastery).

So, does anyone agree Bret had a lucky escape? Feel Hogan should've done the job to The Hitman? etc

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The thing to remember is that Bret was always extremely over and this has been acknowledged by most invovled. If Hogan was the "hero", Bret was the "teen idol" of the 80's WWF and when he started to rise as a singles star he converted a lot of regular fans in a way that a Mr. Perfect never did or Shawn Michaels took until his 2nd career to do.

Bret isn't "crazy" to moan but perhaps misguided in that Flair buried him far more than Hogan ever would have. By not putting Bret over on TV or even in a PPV rematch it meant his reign was already on the backfoot. He didn't have momentum as Champ and his first 2 PPV defences, against Shawn and Razor respectively didn't build that enough to make Hogan viable - even had Hogan wanted to play ball. For Hogan v Bret to work at that time, he had to beat Flair at Survivor Series, either for the belt or defending would have worked... then at Royal Rumble, he had to defend against a bigger name than him but not Razor. Of course then the "winner of the Rumble" stip would never have come into play but Yoko as winner still worked... I'd have put him against Savage at the Rumble, after all he had been champ just 2 months before Bret won it, so it made sense.

Bret having beaten Flair and Savage within 3 months would have made Hogan NEED that match. Yoko interferes and takes Hogan out and perhaps even leaves both guys down at the end of Mania... but to say Bret would have been damaged even if Bret had lost to Hogan would have been wrong. Hogan v Bret could have been a feud for the ages, Hogan knew it but knew it would mean he would eventually lose his position (which he did anyway far quicker for not doing it) but he had a way back far sooner had he done it - he v Bret could have been Hagler v Hearns for that era... the hitter v the technician.

Bret has a right to be a bit gipped about it, but he still ended up making 3m a year and perhaps perspective is something he has lost over time.

 

[Matty~!]

The thing with Bret and Hogan in 1993 is that WWF had been stagnating for a fair while with the obvious booking nature and the way Hogan did or did not do business from a stand point of booking for the future.

In 1993 the WWF needed fresh faces and main event talent, the old ways of the musclehead wrestlers was going to have to be put on hold because of the steroid trial and increased public scrutiny of the product.

Hogan on his way out of the company in 1993 from my perspective of how things were booked was doing more harm than good. And in this aspect Bret who would know far more about the inner workings has a serious grievance.

I'm of the opinion that when he comes to Hogan no promoter has ever had the ability to say enough is enough, you look at wherever he's been over the years, he did incredible business. However, he always left promotions in far worse positions than when he arrived its not entirely his fault and for different situations there are mitigating circumstances. However for all the good Hogan has done for the business he's done a fair amount to harm it as well.

I'm not trying to slate Hogan because regardless of anyone's opinions of his working ability, in ring or working a crowd was arguably the biggest thing ever in pro wrestling in america. The only one that is comparable is Austin at his peak. I just think he's been allowed to get away with far more, than he ever should have been allowed to. I think this is something that Vince realised in hindsight because you look at all major players that had fallings out with Vince from Ultimate Warrior, Bret, Austin etc they were all shipped out pretty quickly afterwards

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

I've always been torn about this one, Hulk Hogan and Bret Hart are two of my top ten favorites, EASILY. Let's be honest here, a lot of us when we were kids thought the Hulk Hogan impromptu title win was a great surprise. Even with the looming scandals, and the fact that the aura of Hulkamania was losing its luster, Hogan still had appeal. However, Bret Hart was really starting to come into his own. Bret's first reign was disappointing in some ways since he didn't even win the title on a televised event. That definitely took something away from it all. And of course, the way the first reign ended with Yokozuna winning and as I mentioned a moment ago, Hogan's impromptu victory over him. On the bright side, Bret lost the belt controversially and Hogan's last title win took away from his invincibility he had for so many years. I think Vince wanted to follow suit and have Hogan go out in a similar fashion, something that I thought could have happened and should have happened with The Undertaker in 1991.

Now it's true Bret didn't get back into the title scene right away, however along the way he won the King Of The Ring and the Royal Rumble (well co-winner as we remember with Lex Luger) and in that time even set up one of his future challengers for his second reign ,when he faced off against his brother Owen, after their tag team aspirations were obliterated. By the time WrestleMania X rolled around, Bret Hart got his redemption against Yokozuna in a World Title rematch. The latter whom had his revenge realized against Yokozuna at King Of The Ring 1993. It took some time BUT Bret did indeed get his moment in the spotlight, and on a better platform than he did with his first title reign. Would a face vs face World Title feud have been an interesting thing with Bret and Hogan? Absolutely. However, and this is only speculation, is it possible that the reason they didn't go this route was because of how Warrior's victory over Hogan didn't have the desired effect? It's possible, after all, heels vanquishing
established acts is always more poignant especially when it's under controversy. See examples like "Superstar" Graham and The Iron Sheik doing the same thing to Bruno Sammartino and Bob Backlund respectively. Afterwards, the next face comes into play, and upends said heel.

Now, I won't say that Hogan also didn't have his reservations about working a program with Bret Hart, but at the same time, I think that if Hogan truly wanted to pull the political card, his title win would have come under far different circumstances. I think instead of a surprise out of nowhere victory, Hogan very easily could have lobbied for a WrestleMania IX title match upon his return to TV in February 1993. Remember, it was only a year ago at Mania VIII that a title match got changed. Nothing says the same thing couldn't have happened a year later.

I just think the advent of the internet and the "shoot interview craze" has made this story too complicated to really know about. Bret and Hogan give different accounts of what Vince told each of them. Who's to say Vince wasn't instigating matters between these two? Also, there's all this speculation of there being a photoshoot with Bret and Hogan having a tug of war over the WWF belt, this day and age, WWE releases stuff that isn't considered "canonical" to WWE lore. Like The Rockers win over The Hart Foundation for the WWF Tag Straps, and concept art of WWE characters that didn't make it past the cutting room floor. If what Bret said was true, I think we've had plenty of time to see this stuff surface. Then again, you never know, they could be waiting on that one. But something tells me that we'd have seen it by now.

At the end of the day, as far as the young fan in me went, Bret got back to the top the mountain a year later, Yokozuna was vanquished and Hulk Hogan regained his momentum in WCW. I was a very content fan, and from the perspective of things I was pleased with what I saw. No amount of speculation and "shooting" from the perspective of the wrestlers involved prevents me from enjoying what happened onscreen.

And because this is professional wrestling, I never take too much of what these people say even when they "break character". And despite how much I love The Hitman and The Hulkster, I think they are two of the biggest trolls on the internet. They'll say and do anything to get fans on the internet to get a rise out of us.

 

[HBKperfect23]

Ill agree with half of the OPs comment. I am sick of Bret moaning. He seems to hold a grudge like no other. Although in the past few years, I think hes mellowed out a little bit.

As for Bret vs. Hogan. I would have loved to see Hogan pass the torch to Bret at Summerslam 1993. I think the reason Hogan didnt want to be in the same ring as Bret is because he would have gotten booed. Bret was the guy in 93. Technical wrestling was becoming main stream. Bret belonged on top.

 

[obamartins]

Somebody reads PowerSlam Magazine...same question was asked in this months issue.

I agree that Bret Hart is lucky he didn't face Hulk Hogan in 1993 because Hogan would have turned the crowd against him because he is the greatest ever in terms of crowd control.

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

I can't think of a more unappealing match than Hogan Vs. Hart. I agree with the OP that Hogan would never have let Hart go cleanly over him. Simply put, Hogan doesn't do "passing the torch", and there's no way he would've done it for Hart. The closest was Warrior, but he made damn sure that camera watched every move Hogan made after that match, including his slow ride out of the arena. Call it brilliant, call it self serving, whatever.

But consider for a moment Hogan's ability to match up with Hart. You have a poor worker in Hogan with a mountainous ego no-selling and just looking awkward alongside a guy trying to either have a technical match or a hard-hitting brawl (a la Hart's match with Diesel at Survivor Series). Hogan couldn't work a match that would in any way look good with a guy like Hart. Hart would have to be a DiBiase or Savage style heel...it's the only way Hogan has ever been able to work with a smaller wrestler.

 

[ANVIL]

All I will say about Hogans abilities is look up on you tube Hogan vs Great Muta. The guy could work and be some what technical. Not Bret Hart technical, but showed being a good hand in both the first Muta match and the ones following after. With that said, in many aspects the OP is correct. I do believe that Hart benefited with his "Trial Run" and became better when the spot light was cast upon him the second time around. He was still a bit green the first go around.

 

[lowandmighty]

I don't think Bret Hart had a "lucky escape" because there was nothing to escape from. Vince McMahon never considered to make a match between them.

I don't really remember the exact scenario but I did see an interview with Hogan once where he explained why Bret Hart was so upset about 1993. It was something like this:

Bret Hart took Hogan into Vince McMahon's office and pitched the idea for Hogan vs Himself and Vince McMahon said "I'll think about it" but never actually did.

Ever since Bret Hart has blamed Hogan who in Bret Hart's mind used his "power of persuasion" on Vince McMahon to let him wrestle Yokozuna instead.

The truth is Hogan had no say who he wrestled and it was entirely Vince McMahon's idea which makes sense since he was running the company after all.

McMahon didn't even have a reason for why or why not, he just never even considered it.
Hogan was leaving the company anyway to pursue acting and rest his body which was already broken at that stage, so there was definitely no match happening at summerslam thats for sure.

He was only ever going to be there for the time he was in 1993. People forget he'd been gone a while and wrestlemania 9 was a return for him. However it was only temporary to bolster the numbers for wrestlemania.

Hogan and McMahon still weren't on good terms since the steroid scandal, it was just McMahon had nobody else to turn to, to make wrestlemania a success for that year.

Yokozuna in McMahon's eyes was just more likely a wrestler to match Hogans "strength" and was a heel so he could screw Hogan out of the belt, leaving the Hulkamaniacs feeling like their guy may have won if it weren't for that and keep the hoards wwe fans.
Besides it was a rematch from wrestlemania

So in that regard I am sick of Bret Hart bitching because he's bitching about something that was never going to happen anyway and wasn't Hogans choice so he's not even in the same argument if he thinks the things he's saying about Hogan are body blows.

 

[Matty~!]

All I will say about Hogans abilities is look up on you tube Hogan vs Great Muta. The guy could work and be some what technical. Not Bret Hart technical, but showed being a good hand in both the first Muta match and the ones following after. With that said, in many aspects the OP is correct. I do believe that Hart benefited with his "Trial Run" and became better when the spot light was cast upon him the second time around. He was still a bit green the first go around.

There's a complete contradiction here. I agree 100% that Hogan's match with Muta is one of the best Hogan matches you are ever likely to see and it's just as much Hogan working his tail off as it is Muta. However, then saying Bret Hart was green in 1992 during his initial WWF title run? This is just complete madness, unless you mean he was green in terms of main eventing and even then that debatable because he was having some of the best matches in the WWF during 1992.

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[YOUTUBE]6EZveIuA_hg[/YOUTUBE]

A couple of examples Hogan was actually motivated to work good matches when he felt like it.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

All I will say about Hogans abilities is look up on you tube Hogan vs Great Muta. The guy could work and be some what technical. Not Bret Hart technical, but showed being a good hand in both the first Muta match and the ones following after. With that said, in many aspects the OP is correct. I do believe that Hart benefited with his "Trial Run" and became better when the spot light was cast upon him the second time around. He was still a bit green the first go around.

I don't think that Bret was necessarily green as a World Champion, he had proved himself very well as an IC Champion. I just think the booking was a little to be desired. However, his first World Title defense against Shawn Michaels at Survivor Series 1992 was the stuff of greatness, even if some of the WWF diehards refuse to see that during Hogan's hiatus the previous spring at WrestleMania VIII. Bret Hart in my opinion was the unfortunate victim of circumstance during a low-time in the WWF. However, I think he did beautifully with a WWF that wasn't what it was, at least in the United States.

However, Bret did some great stuff overseas as champion, there were places he toured and showed the world over, that he wasn't more than just a former tag team specialist that wound up as a World Champion. Plus I can't forget how he was a key component in what became the Attitude Era. Those who detract Bret Hart, I say to hell with their dismissive opinion, I thought the being a face in the US but a hero in Canada was great. Also, Stone Cold to his credit did rise very well on his own merits at WrestleMania, but in my opinion he had a hell of an opponent to make what happened even better.

Bottom line, Bret at times has said some stuff that's inflammatory and self-centered, but my opinion, it's par for the course. Wrestlers will be wrestlers, and they have their egos to boot. However, Bret Hart was great, and while hindsight suggests and rightfully so in some cases that his initial title reign could have been better handled. I think he exceedingly did the best with a less than great situation.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

I would say Bret has every right to be vocal over his 1st title reign. There are two ways to build a champ. You either have them take out monster heels, or take out the top guys no matter if there a good or bad guy. Bret wasn't given either option. Instead his big title defenses were against Shawn at Survivor Series (great match, but made no sense) and Razor at the Rumble (a little better as Razor was a new rising heel with a story against Bret). Since there were no monsters other than Yoko (too new) and Taker (rising face) he should have faced stars like Flair and Macho. When that didn't happen Hogan was his last chance at something big and that didn't happen either.

 

[CrucifiedRaven]

Can we talk a little bit about Hogan's "crowd control"? As in, can you show me examples of what Hogan himself did in the Warrior or the Rock matches where he intentionally won the fans over/away from the other guy?

Also - keep in mind both matches were in Toronto (New York lite in terms of WWF smarks), and the second one was Hogan's first return to WrestleMania (an event he helped create/define) in almost 10 years.

Hogan's popularity was fading in a big way in 1993. Bret's was rising in a big way. Hogan, despite being 6'6 or whatever he is, was also booked constantly as the underdog babyface vs the monster heel. Half of his run is going up against guys even bigger than him like Bundy, Andre, Earthquake, Zeus, Sid, etc. You know who else played the underdog babyface to perfection? Bret Hart.

Regardless of the build or the initial pops, which could very well easily favour Hogan, I'd bet the crowd would become sympathetic towards Hart in a match vs Hogan. He'd be the clear underdog babyface. He wasn't a maniacal heel like DiBiase or Savage. I'd even assume Hogan was smart enough to realize this would happen (assuming there was ever a discussion). It had to be booked this way at the time. It was the only logical way for it to happen, and the fans would buy in.

 

[justinept]

Can we talk a little bit about Hogan's "crowd control"? As in, can you show me examples of what Hogan himself did in the Warrior or the Rock matches where he intentionally won the fans over/away from the other guy?

Also - keep in mind both matches were in Toronto (New York lite in terms of WWF smarks), and the second one was Hogan's first return to WrestleMania (an event he helped create/define) in almost 10 years.

Hogan's popularity was fading in a big way in 1993. Bret's was rising in a big way. Hogan, despite being 6'6 or whatever he is, was also booked constantly as the underdog babyface vs the monster heel. Half of his run is going up against guys even bigger than him like Bundy, Andre, Earthquake, Zeus, Sid, etc. You know who else played the underdog babyface to perfection? Bret Hart.

Basically this. Hogan and Bischoff have done a good job re-writing the history books by consistently stating that Hogan's heel turn came because he heard some boos from the fans in 1995. Bischoff takes it a step further and says the boos were due to Hogan being a New York guy in a southern wrestling promotion. Neither is technically a lie, but both skew the very real fact that Hogan started losing steam as early as the 1992 Royal Rumble when the biggest pop of the night came from his elimination. Sure, he got a nice pop at WrestleMania 9 when he returned after a year-long hiatus, and he piqued some's interest when he went to WCW a few months later - but his ability to sustain that fan interest was severely diminished from where it was in 1990.

Now because we're to believe Hogan's claim that his crowd support started to diminish in 1995 - as opposed to 1992 - we're now left believing that Hogan would've had the crowd support in a match against Bret Hart in 1993. That's simply not true. While it's nowhere near the level of John Cena today, the fans were tired of Hogan and wanted to see someone new. At that time, that someone new was Bret Hart.

 

[Emmet]

As Bret said himself numerous times, by the early 90s wrestling fans wanted more than the usual crap Hogan was putting into his matches, they wanted actual wrestling, hence his star fading and the boos starting in around the 1992-93 period.

In his book Bret says there was a kind of power struggle between Vince and Hogan and Bret just happened to be in the middle in 1993.

I don't think Bret vs Hogan would have been a classic. Bret would have probably had to work heel, as he was younger and more nimble than the dinosaur style Hogan worked, the fans might have turned against Hart, as if he was a young hoodlum beating up an old man.

 

[theHeadliner]

Bret has stated in interviews and his book the story about the photo shoot with the tug-of-war with the belt, and that Vince told him he was going over Hogan with the Sharpshooter. Bret also mentioned that the crowd would have most likely looked at Bret as the underdog and supported him, while booing Hogan, and figured Hogan already thought that. Someone else also mentioned how Bret thought there was some kind of head game going on between Hogan and Vince and Bret was caught in the middle. All of those seem like valid points, as Hogan was losing steam and Bret was breaking through to the top and was almost at that point of being taken 100% viable as the top guy.

He got stiffed in the title win as it wasn't on TV or PPV, even though Flair was a credible opponent. the Match with Shawn at Survivor Series was good, the concept was champ vs. champ, but if Shawn lost he would still keep the IC belt which was interesting, but Shawn wasn't at the level to give Bret his first PPV title defense as "the" guy to make it a must-see. The next PPV was Razor, and he was new and green on the WWF scene. He had an angle going with Owen where Bret the older brother avenged him, but once again Razor wasn't buyable yet in my opinion on a major PPV trying to establish a new champ as the new top guy of the company. Even if Bret still won the belt in the same fashion off the air, and if Flair and Savage were worked in as Bret's opponents in those PPVs or WM--especially a Flair looking for revenge for losing the title, and Hogan was later on, say SummerSlam or King of the Ring-- those major opponents could have catapulted Bret a little farther along and more buyable as the top guy sooner. Maybe he could have wrestled twice in one of the PPVs, taking Shawn on earlier in the event and the main event later, because it was a good match and they are my two all-time favorites.

 

[lowandmighty]

Bret Hart is plain lying about being told he would go over Hogan with the sharpshooter, thats complete nonsense.

Vince McMahon and Hogan have both attested that there was never a match between Hogan and Bret Hart in the planning. It was nothing more than an idea Bret Hart tried to pitch to McMahon.

The truth is Bret Hart came in to Vince McMahon's office with Hogan and pitched the whole thing and then McMahon gave a sort of response along the lines of "... ok Bret, I'm talking to Hogan right now if you don't mind" and Bret Hart took it as "ok good idea that's what we're going to do"

So yes Bret Hart is crazy to moan because Hogan was LEAVING THE COMPANY before they could properly build something like that up anyway. On top of that Hogan was due for knee surgery.

As far as Hogans waning popularity goes, there weren't that many boos before 95 which is the truth although there were some. There were many more cheers as Hogan was still very much on top of the world up until 95.

What happened was in 95, Hogan ditched the red and yellow and wore black for his feud with the giant and in a weird interview, sting accused Hogan of turning his back on him.
All the boos in 95 were was the crowd taking Sting's side rather than Hogans. WCW fans were very loyal to their Sting. Hogan and sting even had a match around that time.
Hogan was also given an uncaring persona being suspended at world war 3.

 

[FlairFan2003]

The thing to remember is that Bret was always extremely over and this has been acknowledged by most invovled. If Hogan was the "hero", Bret was the "teen idol" of the 80's WWF and when he started to rise as a singles star he converted a lot of regular fans in a way that a Mr. Perfect never did or Shawn Michaels took until his 2nd career to do.

Bret isn't "crazy" to moan but perhaps misguided in that Flair buried him far more than Hogan ever would have. By not putting Bret over on TV or even in a PPV rematch it meant his reign was already on the backfoot. He didn't have momentum as Champ and his first 2 PPV defences, against Shawn and Razor respectively didn't build that enough to make Hogan viable - even had Hogan wanted to play ball. For Hogan v Bret to work at that time, he had to beat Flair at Survivor Series, either for the belt or defending would have worked... then at Royal Rumble, he had to defend against a bigger name than him but not Razor. Of course then the "winner of the Rumble" stip would never have come into play but Yoko as winner still worked... I'd have put him against Savage at the Rumble, after all he had been champ just 2 months before Bret won it, so it made sense.

Bret having beaten Flair and Savage within 3 months would have made Hogan NEED that match. Yoko interferes and takes Hogan out and perhaps even leaves both guys down at the end of Mania... but to say Bret would have been damaged even if Bret had lost to Hogan would have been wrong. Hogan v Bret could have been a feud for the ages, Hogan knew it but knew it would mean he would eventually lose his position (which he did anyway far quicker for not doing it) but he had a way back far sooner had he done it - he v Bret could have been Hagler v Hearns for that era... the hitter v the technician.

Bret has a right to be a bit gipped about it, but he still ended up making 3m a year and perhaps perspective is something he has lost over time.

First, Hart was a villain nearly the entire 1980s...he was never the "teen idol" of the 80s vs Hogan's "hero"

Second...Flair never buried Hart...WWE was building to Flair-Warrior at Survivor Series...Flair and Warrior were battling on house shows, cutting promos, all related to Warrior-Savage match and Flair's involvement at SummerSlam which set up Flair's title win. Hart was not even in the championship picture.

Flair was seriously injured in a house show match vs Warrior in Phoenix when Warrior (often criticized by others for beiung careless in the ring) bothched a press slam, causing bone chips to dislodge in Flair's ear. Earl Hebner had to call the match because Warrior missed Flair's sign that he was legit hurt and tried to continue the bout. Flair suffered from instances of loss of balance and vision issues due to the dislodged bone fragments in his ear fluid ruining his equilibrium. If his movements were not sudden or if he was given time to "re set" after a major physical move Flair could regain his balance. Flair agreed to try and lose the belt as quickly as possible in the ring, doing the right thing by WWE (despite the possible real threat of injury to himself) but they were more than a month away from S-Series. WWE quickly had Flair lose to Hart.

Hart was chosen at this point because A) Savage didn't want it, he was taking himself off the road and cutting back his schedule following a short series of matches vs Scott Hall B) Warrior and WWE were already having a strained relationship, McMahon and company not pleased with his work, injuring Flair just more icing on the cake. C) Hart was well known, with a decade of work on WWE, and was fairly over as a Fan Fav at the time. He had more credibility than anyone else left on the roster save for maybe Ted DiBiase who was a major heel (If you are shifting from Flair as champ you would likely move to a Fan Fav). Remember, Hogan & Piper were gone at this point.

It's entirely possible that given Warrior's career implosion he might have been pushed back and Hart might have been elevated into the Main Event Spot vs Flair had Flair not been injured. Flair (who saw several specialists and was treated at the Mayo Clinic) hadn't even been properly diagnosed yet as to what was wrong when he lost, they just knew he couldn't continue wrestling. With that in mind WWE either had to find an emergency 2nd choice or go indefinitely with a World Champ on IR, not wrestling, no one knowing when he would be back.

If anything Flair deserves credit (although I think it was stupid) for wrestling again just to lose when he was hurt.

Also, when Flair returned he wrestled Hart all over the circuit and put him over repeatedly in a series of matches billed as Flair's return bouts that he originally missed because he was off injured (remember WWE announced Flair was out with an injury on TV right after Hart won the title, he was gone for a full month plus).

 

[FlairFan2003]

Bret Hart is plain lying about being told he would go over Hogan with the sharpshooter, thats complete nonsense.

Vince McMahon and Hogan have both attested that there was never a match between Hogan and Bret Hart in the planning. It was nothing more than an idea Bret Hart tried to pitch to McMahon.

The truth is Bret Hart came in to Vince McMahon's office with Hogan and pitched the whole thing and then McMahon gave a sort of response along the lines of "... ok Bret, I'm talking to Hogan right now if you don't mind" and Bret Hart took it as "ok good idea that's what we're going to do"

So yes Bret Hart is crazy to moan because Hogan was LEAVING THE COMPANY before they could properly build something like that up anyway. On top of that Hogan was due for knee surgery.

As far as Hogans waning popularity goes, there weren't that many boos before 95 which is the truth although there were some. There were many more cheers as Hogan was still very much on top of the world up until 95.

What happened was in 95, Hogan ditched the red and yellow and wore black for his feud with the giant and in a weird interview, sting accused Hogan of turning his back on him.
All the boos in 95 were was the crowd taking Sting's side rather than Hogans. WCW fans were very loyal to their Sting. Hogan and sting even had a match around that time.
Hogan was also given an uncaring persona being suspended at world war 3.

OK...I was watching WCW in 94-95 and I can tell you, Hogan having a brief tiff with Sting that lasted all of 5 minutes in Nov of 95 was not what lead him to get booed. Hogan had mixed reactions, at best, from the time he arrived in WCW because he was not a WCW guy, he was a WWE guy, and the WCW fans wanted Flair to go over him. It was that simple. Flair was more popular with that audience, and Hogan's act was getting stale by this time, plus older fans liked Flair more because of his work ethic and quality matches, something Hogan never matched. Still, he was a big draw, and he had fans, he just wasn't invincible to the audience anymore. That started happening as soon as he started appearing.

As far as 93 goes, Hogan really wasnt even in WWE. He was brought back to hot shot WrestleMania, then milk one more PPV out of him. It's not like Hogan had been wrestling full time and Hart was finally eclipsing him.

Would Hogan have gotten booed vs Hart...I doubt it. In WWE he was still No. 1. Hart may have gotten some cheers yes, if they were truly booked as two Fan Favs like Warrior-Hogan were, but Hogan was the bigger star with a bigger connection to that audience, he would have gotten a mostly positive reaction.

Why didn't the match take place....Who knows...Hogan's version is way different than Hart's...It is entirely plausible that Vince wanted to move on with a different champ for awhile because he didn't think business was good enough with Hart, and the plan all along was for Yoko to be the next long term champ, the whole Hogan escapade nothing more than a way to milk a few extra bucks out of Hogan's brief return. It's also possible that Hogan liked the idea of losing to Yoko more, especially in screw job fashion, because with Yoko as a heel, there would be clamoring for a re match when (if) Hogan returned. I can easily see McMahon leaning towards going with Yoko and Hogan inserting himself in, offering (or agreeing) to do the match with the screw job ending and disappear like Yoko "killed Hulka Mania", so if he came back later he'd have an instant Main Event waiting. Hart simply might not have been in the plans, no fault of his own.

I do get tired of Hart's complaints, largely because he never seems to praise anyone, he is often so negative, with very few compliments. I get that he had beefs back stage with some guys, and that in some cases they were profound. I also get that it wasn't all likely his fault. To some degree I wonder if Hart's motorcycle accident, which effectively ended any chance he could ever wrestle again, makes him bitter, especially with HHH dominating the 2000s and now running WWE, with HBK returning as a "Reformed hero" and getting a great last chapter on his career, Flair's revival, "Legend" status, and incredible WrestleMania send off, Hogan's multiple returns, final title run, and the fact he is still making money in TNA today, maybe Hart rants because he feels he deserved some of that and will never get it.

One thing I will say is that HBK has publicly, including during his retirement speech, praised Hart as a wrestler and given him much credit for his success despite their differences. Flair did the same with Dusty Rhodes. You don't hear Hart give many interviews like that.

 

[FlairFan2003]

As Bret said himself numerous times, by the early 90s wrestling fans wanted more than the usual crap Hogan was putting into his matches, they wanted actual wrestling, hence his star fading and the boos starting in around the 1992-93 period.

In his book Bret says there was a kind of power struggle between Vince and Hogan and Bret just happened to be in the middle in 1993.

I don't think Bret vs Hogan would have been a classic. Bret would have probably had to work heel, as he was younger and more nimble than the dinosaur style Hogan worked, the fans might have turned against Hart, as if he was a young hoodlum beating up an old man.

The match wouldn't have been a classic, no, but Hogan could still work a solid match in 93, he did good work with Flair in 94-95 and Hart at that time was a step better than Flair, he could have carried Hogan in a good match.

 

[FlairFan2003]

Basically this. Hogan and Bischoff have done a good job re-writing the history books by consistently stating that Hogan's heel turn came because he heard some boos from the fans in 1995. Bischoff takes it a step further and says the boos were due to Hogan being a New York guy in a southern wrestling promotion. Neither is technically a lie, but both skew the very real fact that Hogan started losing steam as early as the 1992 Royal Rumble when the biggest pop of the night came from his elimination. Sure, he got a nice pop at WrestleMania 9 when he returned after a year-long hiatus, and he piqued some's interest when he went to WCW a few months later - but his ability to sustain that fan interest was severely diminished from where it was in 1990.

Now because we're to believe Hogan's claim that his crowd support started to diminish in 1995 - as opposed to 1992 - we're now left believing that Hogan would've had the crowd support in a match against Bret Hart in 1993. That's simply not true. While it's nowhere near the level of John Cena today, the fans were tired of Hogan and wanted to see someone new. At that time, that someone new was Bret Hart.

Hogan got a thunderous ovation at Royal Rumble 92, he was only booed because he did a totally, non hero, non Hogan, clear heel like move by arguing with, distracting, and even fighting with Sid after he was eliminated (the RR is "Every man for himself" and Sid eliminated him clean). WWE clearly did not play the interaction between in the match close very well as they made Hogan look like the heel, which they didn't intend.

Hogan got a lot more boos in WCW because he was in "Flair Country" and those fans were partial to their guy. If he was wrestling Flair in WWE he would have 80 plus % of the crowd on his side, wrestling him in GA, Kentucky, the Carolinas, FLA, WVA, etc, he was going to be around 50%, with that only because Flair was booked as such a monster heel.

Hogan would have gotten a strong response in 93 in WWE vs Hart, probably a much better response than Hart because he was bigger star with a much bigger history with the audience.

 

[shalliin]

OK...I was watching WCW in 94-95 and I can tell you, Hogan having a brief tiff with Sting that lasted all of 5 minutes in Nov of 95 was not what lead him to get booed. Hogan had mixed reactions, at best, from the time he arrived in WCW because he was not a WCW guy, he was a WWE guy, and the WCW fans wanted Flair to go over him. It was that simple. Flair was more popular with that audience, and Hogan's act was getting stale by this time, plus older fans liked Flair more because of his work ethic and quality matches, something Hogan never matched. Still, he was a big draw, and he had fans, he just wasn't invincible to the audience anymore. That started happening as soon as he started appearing.

As far as 93 goes, Hogan really wasnt even in WWE. He was brought back to hot shot WrestleMania, then milk one more PPV out of him. It's not like Hogan had been wrestling full time and Hart was finally eclipsing him.

Would Hogan have gotten booed vs Hart...I doubt it. In WWE he was still No. 1. Hart may have gotten some cheers yes, if they were truly booked as two Fan Favs like Warrior-Hogan were, but Hogan was the bigger star with a bigger connection to that audience, he would have gotten a mostly positive reaction.

Why didn't the match take place....Who knows...Hogan's version is way different than Hart's...It is entirely plausible that Vince wanted to move on with a different champ for awhile because he didn't think business was good enough with Hart, and the plan all along was for Yoko to be the next long term champ, the whole Hogan escapade nothing more than a way to milk a few extra bucks out of Hogan's brief return. It's also possible that Hogan liked the idea of losing to Yoko more, especially in screw job fashion, because with Yoko as a heel, there would be clamoring for a re match when (if) Hogan returned. I can easily see McMahon leaning towards going with Yoko and Hogan inserting himself in, offering (or agreeing) to do the match with the screw job ending and disappear like Yoko "killed Hulka Mania", so if he came back later he'd have an instant Main Event waiting. Hart simply might not have been in the plans, no fault of his own.

I do get tired of Hart's complaints, largely because he never seems to praise anyone, he is often so negative, with very few compliments. I get that he had beefs back stage with some guys, and that in some cases they were profound. I also get that it wasn't all likely his fault. To some degree I wonder if Hart's motorcycle accident, which effectively ended any chance he could ever wrestle again, makes him bitter, especially with HHH dominating the 2000s and now running WWE, with HBK returning as a "Reformed hero" and getting a great last chapter on his career, Flair's revival, "Legend" status, and incredible WrestleMania send off, Hogan's multiple returns, final title run, and the fact he is still making money in TNA today, maybe Hart rants because he feels he deserved some of that and will never get it.

One thing I will say is that HBK has publicly, including during his retirement speech, praised Hart as a wrestler and given him much credit for his success despite their differences. Flair did the same with Dusty Rhodes. You don't hear Hart give many interviews like that.

1-it wasn't a motorcycle accident. He was riding a normal bike in a park, hit a bump and it jared his brain, causing him to fall as he suffered a stroke.

2-Hogan is well known to have refused to loose to anyone he considered a smaller star then himself, either physically as with Bret, or not as popular with the fans. He also refused to loose cleanly to many of his opponents (see Undertaker's first title win off Hogan, where there was outside interfenece when Flair slid a chair into the ring, and Taker tombstoned Hogan on the chair). This set up a Hogan/Flair potential feud that was nixed with all the crap that went on that year and the next, eventually leading to Flair returning to WCW and Hogan following a year or so later. He's also known for trying to rewrite history to make himself seem less of a douchebag and more of a sympathetic figure. Vince has done this himself a few times in the past to try and downplay the shit he pulled on his wrestlers and putting the blame for backfiring PR on the wrestlers and off of himself.

3-Bret recently made an appearance for a canadian run independant company known as maximum pro wrestling that runs mainly out of the toronto area. this apperance was at a show that took place in my home town of Timmins Ont, and from knowing some of the locals behind the show, I heard he was paid anywhere from 25-50 grand for coming in for a one night show. This was apart from all travel and hotel expenses. They run several shows in town a year, and often have TNA or former wwe/tna guys come up. In the past we've had Kanyon, Matt Morgan a few times, Kurt Angle, and lesser known guys like the Robbie from the Highlanders tag team, most of the TNA knockouts from the last 4-5 years. The company used to be known as Blood, Sweat and Tears, but changed names a few times and one of the main owners is now Arda Ocal, who used to be the cohost along with Jimmy Korderas and Renee Young(Paquette) of the wrestling analysis show Aftermath(formerly Right After Wrestling). So there's little reason for Bret to be jealous of Hogan's run in TNA, since he sees it as a minor league barely above the independants that he takes bookings from and gets to set his own schedule and roles for.

 

[theHeadliner]

Bret Hart is plain lying about being told he would go over Hogan with the sharpshooter, thats complete nonsense.

Vince McMahon and Hogan have both attested that there was never a match between Hogan and Bret Hart in the planning. It was nothing more than an idea Bret Hart tried to pitch to McMahon.

The truth is Bret Hart came in to Vince McMahon's office with Hogan and pitched the whole thing and then McMahon gave a sort of response along the lines of "... ok Bret, I'm talking to Hogan right now if you don't mind" and Bret Hart took it as "ok good idea that's what we're going to do"

This is also what I think happened with the Shawn situation. I know Shawn was a prick back then, but Vince and Shawn have never said that Vince ordered Shawn to drop the title to Bret at WM13 as the plan all along, or that it was set in stone from booking meetings. Even in Bret's book he said he suggested to Vince and Jim Ross in the summer of 1996 in Vince's back deck that he should go over Shawn at WM13 to get the belt back, then he would put Shawn over again and endorse him on-screen to firmly pass the torch. Vince never said "yes" or "that's the plan.

So in essence, Bret came up with the scenario, pitched it to Vince and Shawn separately on a plane ride during the summer of 1996, and it was never confirmed by either party. The next time it was mentioned in Bret's book was the phone call from Vince saying Bret was gonna screw Shawn out of the title in the match with Sid at the Thursday RAW where Shawn lost his smile to set up a non-title grudge ladder match at WM13 for Shawn's hair, and Sid and Undertaker would be for the belt because in Vince's words, Bret vs. Shawn for the belt at WM13 was "too predictable now."

 

[Just Do It]

What on Earth are you talking about, the Headliner.

1. Vince has never commented on the Bret / Hogan situation for a start.

2. Where on earth have you got this, "Just an idea Bret pitched" notion from.

 

[Emmet]

OK...I was watching WCW in 94-95 and I can tell you, Hogan having a brief tiff with Sting that lasted all of 5 minutes in Nov of 95 was not what lead him to get booed. Hogan had mixed reactions, at best, from the time he arrived in WCW because he was not a WCW guy, he was a WWE guy, and the WCW fans wanted Flair to go over him. It was that simple. Flair was more popular with that audience, and Hogan's act was getting stale by this time, plus older fans liked Flair more because of his work ethic and quality matches, something Hogan never matched. Still, he was a big draw, and he had fans, he just wasn't invincible to the audience anymore. That started happening as soon as he started appearing.

As far as 93 goes, Hogan really wasnt even in WWE. He was brought back to hot shot WrestleMania, then milk one more PPV out of him. It's not like Hogan had been wrestling full time and Hart was finally eclipsing him.

Would Hogan have gotten booed vs Hart...I doubt it. In WWE he was still No. 1. Hart may have gotten some cheers yes, if they were truly booked as two Fan Favs like Warrior-Hogan were, but Hogan was the bigger star with a bigger connection to that audience, he would have gotten a mostly positive reaction.

Why didn't the match take place....Who knows...Hogan's version is way different than Hart's...It is entirely plausible that Vince wanted to move on with a different champ for awhile because he didn't think business was good enough with Hart, and the plan all along was for Yoko to be the next long term champ, the whole Hogan escapade nothing more than a way to milk a few extra bucks out of Hogan's brief return. It's also possible that Hogan liked the idea of losing to Yoko more, especially in screw job fashion, because with Yoko as a heel, there would be clamoring for a re match when (if) Hogan returned. I can easily see McMahon leaning towards going with Yoko and Hogan inserting himself in, offering (or agreeing) to do the match with the screw job ending and disappear like Yoko "killed Hulka Mania", so if he came back later he'd have an instant Main Event waiting. Hart simply might not have been in the plans, no fault of his own.

I do get tired of Hart's complaints, largely because he never seems to praise anyone, he is often so negative, with very few compliments. I get that he had beefs back stage with some guys, and that in some cases they were profound. I also get that it wasn't all likely his fault. To some degree I wonder if Hart's motorcycle accident, which effectively ended any chance he could ever wrestle again, makes him bitter, especially with HHH dominating the 2000s and now running WWE, with HBK returning as a "Reformed hero" and getting a great last chapter on his career, Flair's revival, "Legend" status, and incredible WrestleMania send off, Hogan's multiple returns, final title run, and the fact he is still making money in TNA today, maybe Hart rants because he feels he deserved some of that and will never get it.

One thing I will say is that HBK has publicly, including during his retirement speech, praised Hart as a wrestler and given him much credit for his success despite their differences. Flair did the same with Dusty Rhodes. You don't hear Hart give many interviews like that.

Watch any Bret Hart interview, even when he hated HBK and Vince, and he always said HBK was a tremendous wrestler, he always gave him credit. In his DVD he puts over everyone, even Flair. Bret might be bitter on some things, but he always gives wrestlers credit for being good at whatever it is they're good at (Hogan at promos, HBK/Dynamite for wrestling ability etc).