Boxing vs. MMA

[The Roid Rage]

Well first let me say how much it makes me vomit to hear you all getting chapped ass from riding the poles of these MMA guys so bad. I think MMA is a joke #1. It's barely even recognized by the sporting press, and frowned upon. It is what it has always been "Cage Fighting" or excuse me more accurately 'Human Cock Fighting". MMA is just the name given to it to make it sound like a real sport, newsflash, it's not. Dana White has even admitted before that they added the weight classes to make it seem more like a "Real Sport". Why would you have to do that if it was anything but?

Now don't think I am just going to support James Toney here either. I have thought he was a joke for years, and he hasn't really been good since he was a middleweight. The only reason he is coming to UFC is because he is washed up in Boxing, can't cut it anymore on the professional level there, and thinks he's badder than he is. But hey, isn't MMA where all guys go who can't cut it in other sports? Of course it is. There are a few exceptions but only a few. I guarantee against a good heavyweight like either of the Klitschko brothers, none of these MMA guys would last 3 boxing rounds, and I am being very generous. MMA guys don't have the endurance, the stamina, the skill, or the heart to beat a real boxer.

I know I know, once the boxer is off his feet it's over right? Wrong. A good boxer would never get taken to the ground, their footwork would not allow it. Simple things like side steps and parries would have these MMA guys falling over themselves, and running into knockout punches. There is also the ability to fight in every direction, MMA guys don't have it. They go either backwards or forwards, very little movement from side to side unless they are running away, trying to circle, acting like they know how to box. Those take-downs aren't going to help against a boxer with decent mobility either. A boxer knows how to use distance, reach, lateral movement, and all around footwork to keep from getting caught by something as feeble and desperate as a take-down. Kicks are a loser too, they take too much time, too much movement, and leave you too exposed and open. You'd have to be either tanked or stupid to get taken out with one of those wild wide kicks, every time I see one of these morons get knocked out by a kick I think to myself "Why didn't you take one step back ASSHOLE!!!???, Maybe then you wouldn't have got this jerk-offs toe jam in your eye.

The ground game, the knees, elbows, submissions, etc... All unnecessary and all cheap. If you have to resort to twisting someones arm to make them say "Uncle", hit them with an elbow, knee them, or try to get them on the ground so that you can pummel them, than I am betting you are a pussy. If you can't use your hands, than what the fuck are you fighting for. If your not good enough to be able to use just your hands, than you need not fight. All that other stuff is just violent and cheap. That is what used to be called dirty fighting, now that honor is lost amongst men though, it is accepted.

People used to fight like men, but unfortunately we somehow went from breeding men to pussy bitches who are afraid to fight fair, and possibly get their ass kicked. There is nothing wrong with taking a beating if you try to fight someone. It means that guy was the better man on that day. Oh well, you live to fight another day, and you can carry yourself with dignity, no excuses. In MMA there are nothing but excuses, and luck. These guys don't know what the fuck they are doing out there. All that happens is one of the two opponents squirming all over each other on the ground happens to find an opening while the two of them are trying to wrap themselves around each other to keep from having to fight for real, on their feet, like men. I could go on and on and on for hours about this and explain in a million different way and for a million different reasons why MMA is a joke, and why Boxing is by far so superior.

On the James Toney thing again though. I don't expect that he'll do so well. After all, he has left a sport he can no longer be competitive enough in, to do something that he can, MMA. Doesn't that tell you enough right there. He is stepping DOWN not up. That should tell you which is the superior sport with the superior athletes. I was told a long time ago, these cage fighters(and that's what they are) are just a bunch of guys who couldn't cut it as boxers, and it holds true today as it did back when I first heard it. James Toney is now your prime example. I don't expect him to be some world beater, or go in there and wipe the floor with people, and I don't expect that because he is a boxer he will be better off. Maybe if we were talking about James Tony 15 years ago, but his skills are diminishing, that is why he is going to MMA. Boxers would hurt him too bad, and so he is going to do something easier, MMA.

I do think in some ways you are all underestimating him to some degree because of your bias. That's fine. You have to remember something though: this is still a world class boxer, past his prime yes, but the skills and knowledge never leave you. He was a very slick, very deceptive fighter. He could go inside or out and bang with anyone, and he has been doing it for years. Do you think that he doesn't have hands or something? Do you think for one second that he doesn't have better hands than any of those MMA guys? If you do your wrong.

Unless there is anyone in the UFC who has been boxing for almost 20 years and has that kind of ring experience and the numerous accomplishments he does. He has won championships across a number of divisions, name me one MMA fighter who has went from middleweight all the way up to heavyweight. How about even better, name me an MMA guy who has had as long and successful a career as Toney, you can't because they don't exist. No one lasts that long in MMA because they get hurt too much too easily. This is because of the unnecessarily violent nature of it, and the fact that the majority of them are so poorly trained. If they were better trained to know how to defend themselves maybe they wouldn't take so much damage and the MMA wouldn't go through champions like toilet paper, that could also have something to do with it being mostly luck too though. One guy gets lucky one night and the other guy gets luck another night.

There is little to no skill involved with MMA, the proof is in the pudding. If it were so tough and you had to be so skilled to do it, anyone off the streets couldn't do it, but they do all the time. If you're a decent club fighter you can be a pro, if you can beat up locally trained assholes with almost as little training as you, you can be a champion in MMA or the UFC particularly. The amateur ring in MMA is fucking ridiculous too. It's riddled with weak regulation, crooked promoters, and a total disregard for health or safety. I think you'd have to be desperate dumb or both to want to fight MMA. People do that because it's too hard to become a pro at anything else, it's the cheap way to short lived glory. I look forward to seeing James Toney try this out. I can't stand him, but I am hoping he doesn't try to fight MMA style, and sticks mostly to his boxing and knocks the shit out of your beloved MMA fighters.

 

[Rizza]

Well first let me say how much it makes me vomit to hear you all getting chapped ass from riding the poles of these MMA guys so bad. I think MMA is a joke #1. It's barely even recognized by the sporting press, and frowned upon. It is what it has always been "Cage Fighting" or excuse me more accurately 'Human Cock Fighting". MMA is just the name given to it to make it sound like a real sport, newsflash, it's not. Dana White has even admitted before that they added the weight classes to make it seem more like a "Real Sport". Why would you have to do that if it was anything but?

Oh Jesus Christ, what do we have here? Another person who sad that boxing is on life support while MMA is prospering. You Boxing fans never surprise me.
Oh and a sport where two guys stand in front of each other and clobber each other with 10 ounce gloves for 12 rounds sounds like a real cake walk. Nothing like the Cock fighting we are speaking of. Your right, at one time we weren't a real sport, but things have changed. You can watch early UFC's and watch todays product and see we have evolved,unless your blind, biased or a boxing fan. Human cock fighting? Check how many people have died in a fucking boxing ring? Okay, got the answer skipper? Now go look up the MMA death ratio. Until you show me that more people have died in MMA, compared to boxing you can kindly shut the fuck up. LOL. More people tune in to see this fake sport too. What was top PPV draw this year? I'l give you a hint pal, it sure as fuck wasn't boxing.

Now don't think I am just going to support James Toney here either. I have thought he was a joke for years, and he hasn't really been good since he was a middleweight. The only reason he is coming to UFC is because he is washed up in Boxing, can't cut it anymore on the professional level there, and thinks he's badder than he is. But hey, isn't MMA where all guys go who can't cut it in other sports? Of course it is. There are a few exceptions but only a few. I guarantee against a good heavyweight like either of the Klitschko brothers, none of these MMA guys would last 3 boxing rounds, and I am being very generous. MMA guys don't have the endurance, the stamina, the skill, or the heart to beat a real boxer.

Whats your point. That a MMA guy couldn't beat a boxer in a boxing match? No shit bro, and the Klitchsko's couldn't hold Daniel Gracie's jock strap in a grappling match. Got any more obvious bull shit you would like to speak of?

I know I know, once the boxer is off his feet it's over right? Wrong. A good boxer would never get taken to the ground, their footwork would not allow it.

LOL. This is the best part, they wouldn't get taken of thier feet simply because they are a boxer? Dude, your smoking that boxer pole pretty hard here. I am sure that everyone that practices MMA has been taken down. I'm sure that there are boxers who have made the transition. Your telling me that a boxers footwork is too good to go down? So wouldn't the boxers that come over have ungodly take down defense. Go watch every fight of a boxer fighting MMA, and besides KJ Noons, most of the time they lose.

People used to fight like men, but unfortunately we somehow went from breeding men to pussy bitches who are afraid to fight fair, and possibly get their ass kicked. There is nothing wrong with taking a beating if you try to fight someone. It means that guy was the better man on that day. Oh well, you live to fight another day, and you can carry yourself with dignity, no excuses. In MMA there are nothing but excuses, and luck. These guys don't know what the fuck they are doing out there. All that happens is one of the two opponents squirming all over each other on the ground happens to find an opening while the two of them are trying to wrap themselves around each other to keep from having to fight for real, on their feet, like men. I could go on and on and on for hours about this and explain in a million different way and for a million different reasons why MMA is a joke, and why Boxing is by far so superior.

WOW. So Jui-Jitsu is luck, and swinging hands is all skill. Well you know what they say the more you practice the luckier you get. Its part of the game you have to be able to fight anywhere, like a real fight right?and be prepared for anything.I'm assuming you don't know much about those though after this horrendous paragraph.

Your next awful paragraph I'l ignore because it really isn't saying much. Tony's going to get destroyed on the ground though. If I'm lucky that will crush your soul. Only if I'm lucky though.

Unless there is anyone in the UFC who has been boxing for almost 20 years and has that kind of ring experience and the numerous accomplishments he does. He has won championships across a number of divisions, name me one MMA fighter who has went from middleweight all the way up to heavyweight. How about even better, name me an MMA guy who has had as long and successful a career as Toney, you can't because they don't exist. No one lasts that long in MMA because they get hurt too much too easily. This is because of the unnecessarily violent nature of it, and the fact that the majority of them are so poorly trained. If they were better trained to know how to defend themselves maybe they wouldn't take so much damage and the MMA wouldn't go through champions like toilet paper, that could also have something to do with it being mostly luck too though. One guy gets lucky one night and the other guy gets luck another night.

Hows about I give you the people with accomplishments in wrestling. You know? The best base for MMA, the base that matters. In this sport, those boxing accolades aren't shit compared to wrestlings bro. You know this though, your a genius.

There is little to no skill involved with MMA, the proof is in the pudding. If it were so tough and you had to be so skilled to do it, anyone off the streets couldn't do it, but they do all the time. If you're a decent club fighter you can be a pro, if you can beat up locally trained assholes with almost as little training as you, you can be a champion in MMA or the UFC particularly. The amateur ring in MMA is fucking ridiculous too. It's riddled with weak regulation, crooked promoters, and a total disregard for health or safety. I think you'd have to be desperate dumb or both to want to fight MMA. People do that because it's too hard to become a pro at anything else, it's the cheap way to short lived glory. I look forward to seeing James Toney try this out. I can't stand him, but I am hoping he doesn't try to fight MMA style, and sticks mostly to his boxing and knocks the shit out of your beloved MMA fighters

No skill to be in MMA. You saying that, I assume that you are making the claim that could hang with them, yes? Seriously dude, this WHOLE post was bull shit, the whole thing. If there was anybody on this site that read this a believed it. Then I will stop fucking posting. For real thats how bad this attempt was. I get it, you are pissed because there is only one fight left in boxing that people give a shit about. Then after that there is nothing. I get it, you boxing fans are bitter, nothing but biased, bitter,and completely uneducated on the subject of MMA. I wish I could have waded more of your bullshit bro, but you packed so much into one little post, that I just didn't have time to finish. Ah, where does the time go.

 

[The Roid Rage]

You don't comprehend what you read very well do you? It goes to the brain but doesn't check in, is that the case? I see little proof to the contrary.

Oh Jesus Christ, what do we have here? Another person who sad that boxing is on life support while MMA is prospering.

Boxing is doing just fine. The heavyweight division is hurting right now because the Klitschko brothers have dominated the ranks and there is no viable competition left for them, but other than that all the other weight divisions are solid as fuck. I have nothing to be bitter about as it pertains to the state of boxing. The fact that MMA is prospering doesn't matter in this case either

Oh and a sport where two guys stand in front of each other and clobber each other with 10 ounce gloves for 12 rounds sounds like a real cake walk. Nothing like the Cock fighting we are speaking of.

Exactly, you make my point for me. In Boxing they actually stand and fight, it's not a cake walk, far superior and nothing like the cock fighting we are speaking of. At least that much seems to be sinking through with you.

Your right, at one time we weren't a real sport, but things have changed. You can watch early UFC's and watch todays product and see we have evolved,unless your blind, biased or a boxing fan

.

Still not a real sport, never was meant to be, and never will be considered as such. It is what it always was "Cage Fighting". Keyword "Fighting" it's not a martial art, it's not a real discipline. That is why they came up with the term MMA to give it a name that would make it sound like a real sport, as I already stated. What about that don't you get. Sure, it's evolved a little bit, but not much. The difference now compared to when it all began is that now it's more popular, and more people are trying to do it. That is the evolution of "Cage Fighting". Sure the style has changed slightly, they have tried to turn it into some kind of fighting system, but it's not, that's the problem. That's like me throwing English, Japanese, and Hebrew into one made up language and calling it a "The Ultimate Dialect". I am a Boxing fan, and I can see at least that. I would like to know what you think has changed so dramatically that you can say MMA is a sport now, even though you admit that it wasn't at one time? When did that change? When it became really popular and everyone started wearing "Tap Out" shirts, and getting too many tattoos to try and look like an MMA fighter?

Human cock fighting? Check how many people have died in a fucking boxing ring? Okay, got the answer skipper? Now go look up the MMA death ratio. Until you show me that more people have died in MMA, compared to boxing you can kindly shut the fuck up. LOL. More people tune in to see this fake sport too. What was top PPV draw this year? I'l give you a hint pal, it sure as fuck wasn't boxing.

I tried to look up the numbers but there aren't too many solid statistics. What I did fid was a study from 1998-2006 where they kept track of reported deaths as a result of injuries sustained in both Boxing and MMA. The results showed a disproportionate number of 70 deaths a year for Boxing, opposed to 1 death per year in MMA. It was also noted however that there were a disproportionate amount of Boxing matches to MMA at the pro level. Either way, that still reinforces what I was saying, that being that Boxing is tougher than MMA and it takes way more to do it. They hit harder, more often, more accurately, and that is why the compounded damage is so much worse. You have to figure, a lot of fights do go the distance so that means 36:00 minutes of taking shots non stop. Most MMA guys couldn't handle that, a lot of them can't even handle one clean shot from another MMA fighter, imagine them taking a cleaner, more powerful, more well trained punch from a Boxer. It's lights out. So anyways, since I did show you the numbers, and explained them for you, I will gladly NOT shut the fuck up. Moving on.

You're so called "Fact" about MMA being the most viewed PPV event doesn't hold up either. The first glaring flaw in your idea there is that UFC has an MMA PPV every month. They can't even compete with Boxing, their competition is the WWE who also runs a PPV every month. Rightfully so, neither is a real sport. There is UFC, Strikeforce, WEC, and at least here local MMA on TV every day almost. Add to that the monthly PPV's, reality shows, regular shows with only matches, and commercials dedicated to those shows and companies and you also have WAYYYY more exposure and advertising than all the Boxing matches all year too. MMA produces way more product and so you can't really compare that aspect of which is more profitable.

Since you wanted to bring up the stats I looked some up on my own. Here's the deal. The top 10 PPV buys ever all belong to Boxing, 4 of them in the 2000's, 3 within the last 3 years, with a few fights coming up shortly that might join that club as well, and the big money fight everyone is waiting to see Pacquiao v.s. Mayweather, which is a lock to break into top 10 buys of all time. Oscar De La Hoya can lay claim to being in 3 of them, Tyson in 5, Holyfield 3, and to his own credit Pacquiao in 2 with more to come. You know how much money Floyd Mayweather made to fight Oscar De La Hoya? Over $20,000,000.00 for that one fight. Tyson has made $30,000,000.00 for a fight, De La Hoya is obviously in the $20,000,000.00 Club, and Holyfield has made $35,000,000.00. How many MMA guys can say they've made anything close to that? None. I've heard that Chuck Liddell is the highest paid in MMA for a single fight, I've hear Andre Arlovski somehow got a Million, and I'm hearing that GSP has made the most for a single fight with 4.5 mill most of which came from a cut of the PPV buys.

Whats your point. That a MMA guy couldn't beat a boxer in a boxing match? No shit bro, and the Klitchsko's couldn't hold Daniel Gracie's jock strap in a grappling match. Got any more obvious bull shit you would like to speak of?

Here's more of your reading comprehension problem rearing it's ugly head. I never said that an MMA guy couldn't beat a boxer in a boxing match. I said "Against a good heavyweight like one of the Klitschko brothers, none of these MMA guys would last 3 boxing rounds with them" you see, Boxing rounds are 3:00 minutes, not an incompetent 5:00 with about 2:00 of real fighting. They could be trying to fight MMA style all they want, against a boxer the caliber of either of them, no one is going to survive. Do you realize Vitali Klitschko has the highest KO percentage in history??? 97.2%!!!! That's fucking insane!!! No MMA guy is going to stand to that, not their best or boldest. I would take the best boxers in each weight class against the best in MMA in each weight calss any day of the weak. The only problem is that MMA's weight classes aren't even right, their all higher weights than they should be, another ploy by the UFC to try and make their fighters seem even more ultimate, their lightweights are bigger than anyone else's lightweights GRRRRRR!!!!!

LOL. This is the best part, they wouldn't get taken of thier feet simply because they are a boxer? Dude, your smoking that boxer pole pretty hard here.

No no no no no, why must you misinterpret everything you read???? And why do you find it funny that because obviously you don't know shit, you have no idea what I mean when I talk about something as practical as good footwork? Then you try to hide your lack of knowledge with a poorly delivered insult??? I am offended by that!!! Not the insult, the delivery. More Clarification, OK.

What I was talking about was NOT that a boxer would not be taken off of their feet solely because they are a such, but that the foot work and mechanics of said foot work in Boxing are such a great advantage that it would not allow them to be taken down. If you can move around your opponent properly, the result is that he can not take you down. If a man lunges at you for a take down, and you make a 45 degree turn away from him he flies past you. At that point as he is falling forward it is your will weather he is to be punched in the face, or allowed to fall on it. One simple little movement. You make it sound as if take downs are like fucking bear traps or something. Trust me, you can avoid take downs through footwork alone.

Also, MMA fighters do not have very good footwork. They can move straight forward and straight back. The only time they have lateral movement is when they are trying to run away, or are pretending they can box. Every now and again you see a guy who thinks he can stick and move with a jab, funny thing is he can't do anything else though. Where is a follow up hook, an uppercut, or body shot maybe? Don't have the foot work to do it. MMA is off balance and wild, Boxing utilizes balance to make it a weapon of power, and is very smooth, it requires a lot of coordination and rhythm to have good balance and good foot work. A boxer often times will hit you from one place and end up in another place out of harms way as well, this opens you up for some extra body shots or a hard face shot depending on the ferocity of the boxer. Unfortunately it does not appear to be a concern to the MMA world however which is one of it's glaring weaknesses and inferiorities.

I am sure that everyone that practices MMA has been taken down.

Think that up all on your own Private Pyle? No fucking shit anyone who practices MMA has been taken down, it's a standard of training. Was I not supposed to know that or was it another one of your useless comments that pertains to nothing? Just as I thought.

I'm sure that there are boxers who have made the transition. Your telling me that a boxers footwork is too good to go down? So wouldn't the boxers that come over have ungodly take down defense. Go watch every fight of a boxer fighting MMA, and besides KJ Noons, most of the time they lose.

Why don't the boxers who cross over to MMA have great take down defense if they have such superior footwork? That's an easy one to answer. Those people who came to MMA weren't good enough boxers to make it in that sport, so they went to MMA. Obviously they lacked the athleticism to learn it, and apply it. Otherwise that is what they would be doing. Besides, not all boxers strongest point is their foot work. However, in the match where it is an MMA fighter and a Boxer, the boxer will have superior footwork to the MMA fighter. It's in the training, and Boxing training is by far superior as well. That is why Bruce Lee implemented most of it into JKD, as well as many aspects of the foot work, and punching. Beyond that, I would have to lay most of the blame to the horrible training athletes receive in MMA. I have seen the regiments, they are lacking in a lot of the prim areas. Not enough for conditioning and stamina for starters, not enough hand training, not enough of this that and everything else. It's Jack of all Trades, Master of None.

WOW. So Jui-Jitsu is luck, and swinging hands is all skill.

Yep, that's what I was saying Gomer, that's the exact message I was trying to convey. No, that's not entirely what I was saying at all. My point was that often times you can see that these guys are out there without a clue as to what they are doing. All this goes back to the training argument, as well as the talent pool argument. Boxing is not just swinging hands, and it is 90% mental 10% physical if that makes any sense to you. It's not called "The Sweet Science" for nothing. I think it's fair to say that Jui-Jitsu is much more reliant on luck than Boxing by a long shot. I can guarantee that actually because of how well I know Boxing alone. You see, in Boxing every punch leads to another punch. The first one isn't the one that is necessarily meant to land, it's the next one going to the area that becomes open from you blocking the first shot, then the next one that lands harder, etc... Now, I won't be so bold as to say that the occasional lucky punch hasn't or doesn't happen, that would be blatant lying. What I will say is that taking a man down and making him submit is one thing, but putting a man down into submission or beating a man with your fists to the point that someone else stops it is another and a much harder task.

Its part of the game you have to be able to fight anywhere, like a real fight right?and be prepared for anything.I'm assuming you don't know much about those though after this horrendous paragraph.

What are you giving me a pep talk? coach? You think that any discipline doesn't teach that in some way? Well, I see you said you "Assumed" something so at least we've pointed out the flaw there. You really have no real fight experience or training in any kind of real Martial Arts or Self Defense of any kind do you? It shows. I mean fuck man, you don't have to try and talk like Steven Segal in "The Glimmer Man" or something. You can just say, "I don't really know about all that but I am a big fan of MMA and in my honest opinion it looks a lot tougher to me." That would at least be honest. You don't have to carry on the charade like you really know what you are talking about here.

Hows about I give you the people with accomplishments in wrestling. You know? The best base for MMA, the base that matters. In this sport, those boxing accolades aren't shit compared to wrestlings bro. You know this though, your a genius.

This is one of the most telling statements of all. This is where you really show your ignorance. I was talking about how accomplished in Boxing that James Toney is, and you are trying to tell me that none of that experience matters. That is one of the most idiotic statements I have ever seen someone try to pass off as having the slightest inkling of truth. You actually think all that experience in the ring just amounts to nothing?..........This just keeps getting better. As much as I am talking down MMA, you are grossly underestimating how much it takes to be as successful as a guy like James Toney for as long as he has, and what kind of advantage it is, that's real. I never laid claim to being a genius, but you sure are making me look good. Let's move on, and look at the last of your droppings shall we!

No skill to be in MMA. You saying that, I assume that you are making the claim that could hang with them, yes? Seriously dude, this WHOLE post was bull shit, the whole thing. If there was anybody on this site that read this a believed it. Then I will stop fucking posting. For real thats how bad this attempt was. I get it, you are pissed because there is only one fight left in boxing that people give a shit about. Then after that there is nothing. I get it, you boxing fans are bitter, nothing but biased, bitter,and completely uneducated on the subject of MMA. I wish I could have waded more of your bullshit bro, but you packed so much into one little post, that I just didn't have time to finish. Ah, where does the time go.

I am saying that it takes little enough skill that anyone can do it, and that it takes much more skill to box which is why more people have moved to MMA. I see you asked me a question about one of your assumptions there but you couldn't form a proper sentence. It looks like your assuming I am trying to say that I can hang with MMA fighters? As if I can jump out of my computer chair and just have MMA fighters floppin' everywhere huh chico!? No, Not making that case. I like boxing, and other forms of martial arts on their own. I'm not trying to make some new form of fighting by mixing elements of conflicting styles together. I am into mastering one style, or one at a time. Not some jumbled up mixture of moves pulled from different forms of martial arts, like they can just rape any style they want.

I am disappointed with you here though. In your final folly here you once again make assumptions that have no truth to them, meanwhile once again missing the whole point, putting into question yet again, your reading comprehension level. For some reason you keep wanting to think that somehow I am bitter about Boxing for some reason, your trying to say there is only 1 fight left that anyone gives a shit about which you could never prove and is pointless to have said, and go on to refer to Boxing fans so rudely by saying and I quote:

boxing fans are bitter, nothing but biased, bitter,and completely uneducated on the subject of MMA.

. Yep! That's right folks. Millions of people have been watching "Cage Fighting" since it's inception, watched as it has dawned a new identity as MMA, and continue to follow it but Boxing fans know nothing about it because.......Oh yeah, you never went on to explain that, or anything else. But he's preachin' the gospel people!!! FUCK!

I have been watching this stuff from it's beginning, I used to like it a bit because they didn't really front about what it was. They presented the product for what it was. Not like the way they try to pass MMA off MMA as some kind of fucking breakthrough in full contact sports or some shit. That was JKD folks, and unless Dana White is the fucking dragon like Bruce Lee was, I highly doubt his MMA is as legit as any of that. This is nothing more than the evolution of tough man competitions. That is it right there, they have taken guys of that level and tried to pass them off as the best athletes, toughest fighters, most skilled, best trained, this, that, whatever when it is obvious to the trained and experienced eye that is not the case.

It really pisses me off because of punks like you. You sit there like you know so much about MMA, which you have made obvious is anything but the truth, and talk shit about Boxing like you know shit about it either, when it is also obvious that you know nothing about it either. And why? Because you "Think" MMA is some bad shit because it's violent? That's one of the biggest flaws. Boxing and the individual forms of martial arts are forms of "Self Defense" where as MMA is a form of "Fighting". It is so because it lacks discipline, basically anything goes remember? It's not as tactful, it's not as technical. It is animalistic, and brutish. They try to use as much "Shop Talk" as possible to make it sound like some crazy technical shit or something but I've got news for you, there is nothing technical about sicking two guys on each other like pitbulls who know just enough to hurt each other and themselves.

 

[Rizza]

Boxing is doing just fine. The heavyweight division is hurting right now because the Klitschko brothers have dominated the ranks and there is no viable competition left for them, but other than that all the other weight divisions are solid as fuck. I have nothing to be bitter about as it pertains to the state of boxing. The fact that MMA is prospering doesn't matter in this case either

Your a Hardcore Boxing fan, right? So I'm sure that there are fights out there that you want to see that wouldn't be gave a shit about besides hardcore Boxing fans. I am speaking about the general public. The general public isn't interested in Boxing unless its a huge name fight, there aren't many of those left man, you said it yourself Boxing doesn't get the exposure that MMA does. So no one really cares about it anymore. Unless its a super star fighting a super star.

Exactly, you make my point for me. In Boxing they actually stand and fight, it's not a cake walk, far superior and nothing like the cock fighting we are speaking of. At least that much seems to be sinking through with you.

Of course its not a cake walk. Your making my point for me in this case. Boxing is just as vicious as MMA. The dudes in boxing take hundreds of punches in a single fight to the face and body. You say it yourself, more precise harder blows too. Its a very, very violent sport. What do you think MMA is? Two guys getting locked in the Colosseum armed with fucking swords? You can't(In UFC) Knee on the ground or kick on the ground. You can't throw 12/ 6 elbows, and the ref can stop after only one unanswered punch if need it be, not to mention the obvious like fish-hooking, biting, gouging ect. Its not nearly as violent as you make it out to be. As for "they actually stand and fight" thing, what the hell is the difference between punching a man when he's down if he is trained to fight there? Hell, whats wrong with hitting a man when he's down? Morals? Because you were taught it wasn't the manly, or the real way to fight? A fight is a fucking fight. if you agree to a fight you shouldn't expect to be let back up so you can use your boxing technique. All that is opinion, Boxing is in no way to superior, to MMA because they "they actually stand and fight". Oh and for the cock fight name we love to stamp on it. Im from North GA. I have been to my share of cock fights. They don't leave until one rooster fucking dyes, from violently getting shanked with spurs from the other one. I would love to hear how that compares any way to MMA. Is it the cage? In Japan they mostly use rings, you know, like Boxing. Does that make it less cock-fight-ish? I really don't get it.

Sure, it's evolved a little bit, but not much. The difference now compared to when it all began is that now it's more popular, and more people are trying to do it. That is the evolution of "Cage Fighting". Sure the style has changed slightly, they have tried to turn it into some kind of fighting system, but it's not, that's the problem. That's like me throwing English, Japanese, and Hebrew into one made up language and calling it a "The Ultimate Dialect". I am a Boxing fan, and I can see at least that. I would like to know what you think has changed so dramatically that you can say MMA is a sport now, even though you admit that it wasn't at one time? When did that change? When it became really popular and everyone started wearing "Tap Out" shirts, and getting too many tattoos to try and look like an MMA fighter?

It hasn't evolved much? Its very much changed. I can tell your not a fan of the sport but you should actually compare the old days(93-96) to modern times and you would see the huge difference dude. You will never give it a fair try, or else you would see that saying its the same is insane. Thats why it went from being illegal to getting coverage on ESPN. Thats a fucking huge evolution. We staring being a sport when on November 17, 2000 the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board, sanctioned our fights under the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial arts. The same commission that sanctions Kickboxing and of course Boxing. All the events from November 17,2000, to November 2, 2001, events from UFC 28 to UFC 33 is our evolution from a tough man contest to a real sport. I consider UFC 34 to be USA's first real MMA sporting event. This is just for USA though they have been doing things like that for a while in Japan.

Since you wanted to bring up the stats I looked some up on my own. Here's the deal. The top 10 PPV buys ever all belong to Boxing, 4 of them in the 2000's, 3 within the last 3 years, with a few fights coming up shortly that might join that club as well, and the big money fight everyone is waiting to see Pacquiao v.s. Mayweather, which is a lock to break into top 10 buys of all time. Oscar De La Hoya can lay claim to being in 3 of them, Tyson in 5, Holyfield 3, and to his own credit Pacquiao in 2 with more to come. You know how much money Floyd Mayweather made to fight Oscar De La Hoya? Over $20,000,000.00 for that one fight. Tyson has made $30,000,000.00 for a fight, De La Hoya is obviously in the $20,000,000.00 Club, and Holyfield has made $35,000,000.00. How many MMA guys can say they've made anything close to that? None. I've heard that Chuck Liddell is the highest paid in MMA for a single fight, I've hear Andre Arlovski somehow got a Million, and I'm hearing that GSP has made the most for a single fight with 4.5 mill most of which came from a cut of the PPV buys.

Can't argue about this. These are cold hard facts. Its is in my opinion though that boxing doesn't have the star power. Those names you mentioned, Tyson, Holyfield, De La Hoya, they were huge names man, there aren't people with names names like that out there anymore besides Pacman, and Mayweather. I know there are guys that are names and can draw( like Cotto for example) but I don't believe,(with exception of the first two), that Boxing ever draws like that again.

Here's more of your reading comprehension problem rearing it's ugly head. I never said that an MMA guy couldn't beat a boxer in a boxing match. I said "Against a good heavyweight like one of the Klitschko brothers, none of these MMA guys would last 3 boxing rounds with them" you see, Boxing rounds are 3:00 minutes, not an incompetent 5:00 with about 2:00 of real fighting. They could be trying to fight MMA style all they want, against a boxer the caliber of either of them, no one is going to survive. Do you realize Vitali Klitschko has the highest KO percentage in history??? 97.2%!!!! That's fucking insane!!! No MMA guy is going to stand to that, not their best or boldest. I would take the best boxers in each weight class against the best in MMA in each weight calss any day of the weak. The only problem is that MMA's weight classes aren't even right, their all higher weights than they should be, another ploy by the UFC to try and make their fighters seem even more ultimate, their lightweights are bigger than anyone else's lightweights GRRRRRR!!!!!

First thing that intrigues me about this is that you call the 5 minute rounds incompetent. With only two minutes if real fighting. Most MMA fans that I talk to like the old Pride FC method of ten minute rounds. Infact, I think that all that I talk to do. It is our(MMA fans) opinion that it makes for a better fight, now, why do I not find it surprising that you are shitting on the lengths of the round? Because you are a hater. Its as simple as that. Then you proceed to shit on things as small the weight classes because its different. Its not the UFC. Its the Mixed Martial Arts Unified Rules of Conduct. In Japan and UK its the same. It is also your opinion no fighter could stand with Klitschko. They probably could not. I'l tell you straight up man, high lever boxers like Klitschko Boxers could beat most if not all MMA fighters in a stand up fight. In a MMA fight I am picking the MMA guy. They train 24/7 on how to take a man off his feet. Im sure taking a Boxer off thier feet in the opening seconds wouldn't be too hard. Thats with or without teaching the Boxer some basics like sprawling.

Yep, that's what I was saying Gomer, that's the exact message I was trying to convey. No, that's not entirely what I was saying at all. My point was that often times you can see that these guys are out there without a clue as to what they are doing. All this goes back to the training argument, as well as the talent pool argument. Boxing is not just swinging hands, and it is 90% mental 10% physical if that makes any sense to you. It's not called "The Sweet Science" for nothing. I think it's fair to say that Jui-Jitsu is much more reliant on luck than Boxing by a long shot. I can guarantee that actually because of how well I know Boxing alone. You see, in Boxing every punch leads to another punch. The first one isn't the one that is necessarily meant to land, it's the next one going to the area that becomes open from you blocking the first shot, then the next one that lands harder, etc... Now, I won't be so bold as to say that the occasional lucky punch hasn't or doesn't happen, that would be blatant lying. What I will say is that taking a man down and making him submit is one thing, but putting a man down into submission or beating a man with your fists to the point that someone else stops it is another and a much harder task.

Dude I know boxing is the sweet science, and I can very much see the difference in the striking, countering, and foot work of boxers. Just as in boxing where one punch sets up another punch. In grappling one transition leads into another transition. In a well trained BJJ atrist every thing they do is leading to something. You say you know this because how well you know Boxing. I am not gonna come out and say because of how much I know about Jiu-Jitsu, but my very good buddy is a blue belt in Jiu Jitsu, and just what from he has taught me in just a few rolling sessions showed me how technical BJJ is. You are always thinking on how to move forward and gain dominant spot. Its more then rolling on the ground man.

What are you giving me a pep talk? coach? You think that any discipline doesn't teach that in some way? Well, I see you said you "Assumed" something so at least we've pointed out the flaw there. You really have no real fight experience or training in any kind of real Martial Arts or Self Defense of any kind do you? It shows. I mean fuck man, you don't have to try and talk like Steven Segal in "The Glimmer Man" or something. You can just say, "I don't really know about all that but I am a big fan of MMA and in my honest opinion it looks a lot tougher to me." That would at least be honest. You don't have to carry on the charade like you really know what you are talking about here.

LOL at this. Not a dick head smart assy lol either.I think were just mixed up here. All I meant by

it part of the game you have to be able to fight anywhere, like a real fight right?and be prepared for anything.I'm assuming you don't know much about those though after this horrendous paragraph.

Is that in a real fight ,alot of the times it ends up on the ground. If you are a highly trained boxer, then what are you gonna do when the fight goes to the ground after somebody trips you, or anything, to get to the ground in a street fight. Or what if somebody blindsides you and fall, and they go in for the kill on you, then what do you do. That is the reason MMA seems tougher to me, because its more the mastering one dimension. You can type another essay telling why I am wrong or whatever, but that is my thoughts and I stand by them. By the way, I was in Jiu-Jitsu for two months before I quit do to family problems. So no, I am not a hyper killing machine like Segal or even a skillfull grappler, but I know more then average Joe blow on the ground.

This is one of the most telling statements of all. This is where you really show your ignorance. I was talking about how accomplished in Boxing that James Toney is, and you are trying to tell me that none of that experience matters. That is one of the most idiotic statements I have ever seen someone try to pass off as having the slightest inkling of truth. You actually think all that experience in the ring just amounts to nothing?..........This just keeps getting better. As much as I am talking down MMA, you are grossly underestimating how much it takes to be as successful as a guy like James Toney for as long as he has, and what kind of advantage it is, that's real. I never laid claim to being a genius, but you sure are making me look good. Let's move on, and look at the last of your droppings shall we!

In MMA, James Toney's boxing accomplishments really don't mean much man. So he was a world class boxer. MMA has had cross overs from World class Kickboxers,from world class BJJ artist ,and world class Collegiate wrestlers, and before they prove their self in are oh so barbaric death cage, then their accolades don't mean shit. This is a different sport. He was a great Boxer but until he comes over and fight under MMA rules and shows off that world class Boxing effectively, those accomplishments don't mean shit.

It really pisses me off because of punks like you.

You don't know me.

You sit there like you know so much about MMA, which you have made obvious is anything but the truth,

How so? I actually watch the sport, and often discuss it with other punks as you have labeled us. I actually care enough about the sport to research it. I also find it amusing how you said you watch the shit in the beggining, but stopped once it was trying to be marketed as a real sport. So you like it whens its extra violent, but when it gets big and less violent, you start to talk about it like its human cock fighting?

There is nothing technical about sicking two guys on each other like pitbulls who know just enough to hurt each other and themselves.

Just like boxing, only in boxing they know enough to really hurt their opponents, shown by how many deaths are compared to MMA. Its just as barbaric. Its techniacal too, don't get me wrong, but saying all this about just MMA is bull shit. In boxing its the same thing. Two men enter, one man leaves a winner, its just as much as a goddamn pitbull fight as MMA is. Please tell what the difference is, what you can't go to the ground?

 

[The Roid Rage]

Your a Hardcore Boxing fan, right? So I'm sure that there are fights out there that you want to see that wouldn't be gave a shit about besides hardcore Boxing fans. I am speaking about the general public. The general public isn't interested in Boxing unless its a huge name fight, there aren't many of those left man, you said it yourself Boxing doesn't get the exposure that MMA does. So no one really cares about it anymore. Unless its a super star fighting a super star.

Ehhhh, that's shaky ground right there. If what you were saying was water tight than Boxing would be dead. Sure, it's not as advertised and marketed as MMA. Even so, I watch Boxing matches all the time, and they never have trouble filling arenas around the world. I think the case you are talking about is more so in American society, than anywhere else. Boxing is still loved, respected, and highly celebrated throughout all corners of the world. Also, that says nothing to MMA being superior to Boxing in any way but regional popularity. That says nothing to prove that MMA is tougher or superior to Boxing, which it is not.

I can tell again here that you must not be much of a Boxing fan or keep up on it either. There are stars coming out, there is talent on the horizon, and talent at the top right now that if people only knew about or watched, would be superstars. Part of the thing is that you don't become a house hold name in Boxing near as soon or as easily as in MMA. You have to really really accomplish something in Boxing to get the same kind of recognition guys in MMA do for almost nothing. There is a higher standard, tougher proving grounds. These guys in MMA have a hand full of fights and are referred to as legends, and veterans with records that wouldn't even be close to significant in Boxing.

B.J. Penn for example is a legend in MMA and one of their hollowed veterans, his record is only 15-5-1 and that is what they call this guy, he is so highly revered, he's so great, blah blah blah. In Boxing that record wouldn't get him a shot at one of the more insignificant titles, what does that say? Manny Pacquiao has a record of 51-3-2, that's a champion. Hell, The WBC Super Middleweight Champion Carl Froch has a record of 26-0 and has been defending the title since 08 successfully, that's a guy who's moved up relatively fast too. Froch is one of the best prizefighters on the planet, but you have probably never heard of him, seen him fight, or you might have just "heard" of him. If he had a record like that in MMA he would be considered the greatest of all time, and in Boxing that is so far away from that acclaim it's ridiculous.

As for the prospect of big ticket fights for the future, I'd have to ask who gave a shit about Floyd Mayweather Jr. 6 years ago when he was at 30-something and 0? No one. It takes time. There are guys on their way up that will be superstars in time. The boxing world is very patient. Hell, we waited over 40 years for a decent white heavyweight, now the best two in the world are white. No to make it a color issue or anything, but for years people always said there were no good white heavyweights and the division was dominated by blacks. Looks like the pendulum has swung the other way. It just took some time.

In MMA they seemingly have no concept of time in those respects. That is one of the major problems I have with it. You have these guys who are largely inexperienced pushed to levels they aren't ready for, aren't trained adequately for, and aren't mentally tough enough to be in. Why? So some promoter can make money of the slab of flesh in the ring. I just don't see it as a very respectable sport if you can even call it a sport. Fuck, Brock Lesnar is a perfect example. He had a name, but no real experience, sure he had a wrestling background, but that's a far cry from full on fighting. Here he comes, this guy with a name and a great physique who act like he chews nails for breakfast, and eats tires for lunch, and because of his attitude he is immediately viewed as some bad ass fighter, then look at his record. He has 3 or 4 fights and he's the Heavyweight champion???? How illegitimate does that make the sport look. A guy with next to no experience comes in and just wipes the floor with your so called "Seasoned Veterans"? C'mon. I think that is another prime example that it is not a skilled sport like Boxing. And hey, if Brock Lesnar was so tough, why didn't he try Boxing? Because not even he could hack it. It's too disciplined, and to cerebral.

Of course its not a cake walk. Your making my point for me in this case. Boxing is just as vicious as MMA. The dudes in boxing take hundreds of punches in a single fight to the face and body. You say it yourself, more precise harder blows too. Its a very, very violent sport.

Ok, so your point is why how can I say MMA is so much more brutal than Boxing when there are obviously more deaths in the sport as a result of the Boxers hitting harder, more accurately, and in greater consistency for a longer period of time? That's easy. It's because of the unnecessary tactics that are used so frequently and encouraged. Knees, elbows, submissions, kicks, all unnecessary.

Boxing shows us that a sufficient and sometimes deadly amount of damage can be inflicted with the hands alone, meaning that that is all that is necessary to prove who is a better fighter, and to win a bout. It's a legit, even playing field where there really aren't any excuses to be had. There's no "Well, he got me into this submission" or "I took too many elbows" "I didn't see that kick coming". Boxing decides a more defined winner. Either you win on points, you win with a knock out/tko, or you lose in either of those fashions, that's it, no excuses. You can't rely on any type of luck outside of the one "lucky punch" and that is a great rarity anyways, it's all on you and your skills, mentally and physically. Not only that, as a result of the superior training, and results of that we've already established, it is much harder to be a boxer than an MMA fighter.

My problem has been that people act as if it is the other way around, and actually call MMA "Ultimate Fighting", when in fact the "Ultimate" level of fighting is in the Boxing ring. You don't have the luxury of using your legs(kicking), you can't work a gut into a submission(which proves nothing anyways), you can't mount a guy and pummel him, slam him, no cheap shots, none of that. Those are all alternatives to having to stand and use your fists alone. Why? Because if those people had to, they wouldn't be able to win. So as a result MMA says "Well, we'll change the rules so that you can" and changing the rules is the same as cheating. So what you end up with is a bunch of guys basically cheating their way to victory. They can't do it the traditional way, so they made up something where they could.

What do you think MMA is? Two guys getting locked in the Colosseum armed with fucking swords? You can't(In UFC) Knee on the ground or kick on the ground. You can't throw 12/ 6 elbows, and the ref can stop after only one unanswered punch if need it be, not to mention the obvious like fish-hooking, biting, gouging ect. Its not nearly as violent as you make it out to be.

That's amusing but no. That is what the hype machine behind it would have you think instead which is another problem I have with it, in conjunction with the last paragraph above. As I said it is simply dirty fighting. It's a form of fighting made up to make guys who couldn't hack it as boxers, look like a bunch of world beaters. The distinctions in what is and is not allowed that you made do not change that, and don't make in any less violent than I make it out to be. Now, due to the level of competition, the superior training, and the all around nature of the sport, Boxing is more Dangerous than MMA, true. But, because of the unnecessary tactics utilized in MMA it is inherently more Violent, the nature of it is more violent. Once again it's the difference between "Boxing" and just "Fighting". Fighting is what people do on the streets, it's more carnal, without skill. Boxing is all skill, is highly scientific, and only takes place in the squared circle. They have tried to add a science to "Fighting" rather than following one that already exists. Why? I already said it. Because fighting by the rules in other sports did not allow these type of athletes to succeed, so they made up something that did. I'm sorry but pinning a man on his back, sitting on top of him, and pounding him in the face isn't very scientific, and doesn't require any skill, it is just violent. Hitting a man when he is down is not skilled, it is violent. Choking a man out is not skilled, it is violent, on and on.

As for "they actually stand and fight" thing, what the hell is the difference between punching a man when he's down if he is trained to fight there? Hell, whats wrong with hitting a man when he's down? Morals? Because you were taught it wasn't the manly, or the real way to fight?

It's about class, sportsmanship, pride, competition, honor, and respect. There are morals involved, which is why there ARE the rules in Boxing that exist. It's because as I said, none of that other stuff proves anything. So what, you hit a guy when he was down, what does that prove? That your cheap and desperate enough to do so? No. If your really the superior competitor, you will be able to put them down again. If it's not luck, than you should be able to win regardless right? Exactly. You twisted a mans arm and he had to tap, so what? What does that prove? Nothing. It proves that you could twist a guys arm, not that your better, or a skilled fighter for that matter. Cowards take that lower easy road, it is men of honor, character, and class that will stand and fight, and allow another man the chance to stand and fight.

A fight is a fucking fight. if you agree to a fight you shouldn't expect to be let back up so you can use your boxing technique.

That's the thing. Boxing isn't fighting, MMA is. Boxing isn't a fight on the street, nor is it to be reflective of that, MMA is. If it were more than "Fighting" it would be a sport, but by your own admission that's exactly what it is. Sure, in a "fight" you shouldn't expect to be let up, because technically a fight has no rules. So suddenly when you add a few rules and get sanctions it's supposed to be a sport? Hardly. However in any sport, the idea is that there is a level playing field, there are rules to ensure that the better man wins. That is not so in MMA. It's set up so that you can see a "fight". If people want that, they can go to a local bar and see a fight, if you want to see real athletes, with real skills, watch a Boxing match. It's not always as exciting, it's not always as entertaining, but it is always tough, it is always dignified, and it is always fair. If a man doesn't have the chance to use his technique, that where is the fair part of that? That's the idea of competition, each man gives what they've got, uses their skills, and a victor is decided. Not, two guys with minimal skills get into a fight, and through any tactic a victor is decided.

All that is opinion, Boxing is in no way to superior, to MMA because they "they actually stand and fight".

That is also an opinion, but how did you back yours and how did I back mine? Through my supporting arguments I think it is very safe to say that Boxing is in every way superior for that fact. If you never go to the ground, never get into submission struggles, never kick or get kicked, and have to rely only on your fists, I'm pretty positive common sense has to tell that is harder and requires more skill. As mentioned before; it is one thing to take a man down, it is another thing to PUT a man down. It is much tougher to stay on your feet, and continually throw, absorb, and deliver punches a rapid pace, i.e. it takes more, it is superior.

Oh and for the cock fight name we love to stamp on it. Im from North GA. I have been to my share of cock fights. They don't leave until one rooster fucking dyes, from violently getting shanked with spurs from the other one. I would love to hear how that compares any way to MMA. Is it the cage? In Japan they mostly use rings, you know, like Boxing. Does that make it less cock-fight-ish? I really don't get it.

It's a metaphor ok. It's because it is more brutal, and anything goes basically, and there is a complete disregard for safety. I will say, they have become much stricter about some of the safety issues, but like I explained earlier, it is still more violent in nature which in and of itself is a blatant disregard for safety. Whether it is in an octagon or regular ring doesn't matter, it is what it is. I can see how the comparison is hard to match up though, or how confusing it may seem to have one equated with the other. It's really just for exaggerations sake to make a point, but now you have heard it explained.

It hasn't evolved much? Its very much changed. I can tell your not a fan of the sport but you should actually compare the old days(93-96) to modern times and you would see the huge difference dude. You will never give it a fair try, or else you would see that saying its the same is insane.

Ok, so your defense has been "It's very much changed" "whatever I am saying is insane" "I won't give it a fair try". Where's some proof. Say something please. How has the "sport" evolved so much? I've already explained enough about that myself, so what have you to say about it? "I won't give it a fair try"? I've already given it a fair try, over the course of years. I still watch waiting for it to impress me somehow, but it doesn't. I guess part of it is my fault for watching, excuse me for that. The only difference between then and now is how it is presented to you in terms of production quality. The "Technical" part of the game is largely the same. There has been no revolution in fighting "technically" just because now more people are doing it. That makes it popular, and that is something itself, but not revolutionary, not superior. Fads come and go, I think MMA is just that, a Fad waiting to die out. Boxing is timeless.

Thats why it went from being illegal to getting coverage on ESPN. Thats a fucking huge evolution. We staring being a sport when on November 17, 2000 the New Jersey State Athletic Control Board, sanctioned our fights under the Unified Rules of Mixed Martial arts. The same commission that sanctions Kickboxing and of course Boxing. All the events from November 17,2000, to November 2, 2001, events from UFC 28 to UFC 33 is our evolution from a tough man contest to a real sport. I consider UFC 34 to be USA's first real MMA sporting event. This is just for USA though they have been doing things like that for a while in Japan.

It went from illegal to getting coverage on ESPN because it was profitable, not because it was a real sport. WWE has to be sanctioned by the same bodies of authority too, and we already know about wrestling now don't we? A division of that authority assigned to sanction those bouts doing so, doesn't obviously make it a real sport than does it? Like I said, WWE and MMA are the real competitors here, and Boxing is on a higher level. You think because governing bodies put an official set of rules in action that somehow makes it a sport? Keep in mind here, you agreed that it was nothing more than a glorified toughman contest. I am asking how that has changed so much, and so far we are seeing no notable changes. What does that say my friend? What does that say? It says that it has become popular enough that bigger people with power want a cut, and they are going to regulate the competition. That's not a revolution, it's someone telling you to either follow our rules or close up shop. Get to within this line of legality or we can't back you, and you need us not the other way around.

Its is in my opinion though that boxing doesn't have the star power. Those names you mentioned, Tyson, Holyfield, De La Hoya, they were huge names man, there aren't people with names names like that out there anymore besides Pacman, and Mayweather. I know there are guys that are names and can draw( like Cotto for example) but I don't believe,(with exception of the first two), that Boxing ever draws like that again.

I hit on this one a little bit earlier. The stars are there, they just need the exposure. Another thing is, if they don't have a star, one will be created. That goes for MMA or Boxing. There will always be the high profile, big name, big money talent whether they are propped up or legit. People can be MADE popular, the fans don't choose as much as they'd like to believe. I don't think that either MMA or Boxing has anything to really worry about there. No matter what, as long as there are prospects, there will be greats. Someone will always rise to the top to be admired by all, that is seems is only inevitable.

First thing that intrigues me about this is that you call the 5 minute rounds incompetent. With only two minutes if real fighting. Most MMA fans that I talk to like the old Pride FC method of ten minute rounds. Infact, I think that all that I talk to do. It is our(MMA fans) opinion that it makes for a better fight, now, why do I not find it surprising that you are shitting on the lengths of the round? Because you are a hater. Its as simple as that.

Unnecessary once again. 5:00 is ******ed, what purpose does having longer rounds serve? It's yet another generic attempt at trying to make it seem "tougher" than Boxing or other sports. And, once again you offer nothing up except "I think it makes a better fight". Well, I KNOW it doesn't. It makes for boring fights with guys barely moving on the ground because their winded within the first 2 minutes to begin with. Then you might get a minute and a half of two guys hugging against the fence trying to knee each other just so that they are moving and the ref doesn't end their rest period. I can't fathom how pointless a 10 minute round would be.

This all shows the lack of science in the MMA world. 3:00 is an optimal amount of time for any two fighters to be going at it. It's long enough to keep them going and short enough to keep them from gassing out. The proof is in the pudding, take a look. 90% of these MMA guys are absolutely tanked, winded, spent, breathing heavy through their mouths after 1 round. It's not because it's soooo tough, it's because these guys aren't conditioned to actually go that amount of time, which goes back to my whole argument about them being so poorly trained. Most guys never even have a chance because of the poor training for MMA.

As for me being a hater, call me what you will. I know what the fuck I am talking about, and generally when someone is saying what you DON'T want to hear, that is what you call them. Yeah I'm busting out MMA, if anyone doesn't like it, I dare them to prove anything differently than what I am saying. So far all I have heard is opinions to my factual knowledge, most of which you have agreed with. MMA is just illogical in almost all of it's practices, it makes no sense, and things like the 5:00 minute round are just gimmicks to make it seem like something it is not, a real sport. Just because I am pointing out all of the flaws and round time happens to be one of them does not mean I am a hater.

Then you proceed to shit on things as small the weight classes because its different. Its not the UFC. Its the Mixed Martial Arts Unified Rules of Conduct. In Japan and UK its the same.

No, it's not because it's different. It's because they label the wrong weights with the wrong weight classes, simple as that. It's because that is another thing they have done to try and be different or separate themselves, or to try and make it seem like they are better in some way. All the while trying to be accepted as a real sport. It's a true testament to the logic, science, and thought that must have went into MMA, they can't even get the weight classes right, how dumb must they be? If someone is a true Middleweight(154) why would you call them a Welterweight? If someone is a true Light Heavyweight (175) why would you call that Middleweight?

It's ridiculous. What is the point behind it? How is that logical? What sense is there in moving the weight classes up in weight? There is none, it just makes them look stupid. As you have informed me it is not just the UFC either but all around the world which makes the case even worse. If it were just the UFC you could say "Well, that's just the UFC" but you can't. The whole sport is confused about what is a Lightweight, Welterweight, Middleweight, Light Heavyweight, and Heavyweight.

It is also your opinion no fighter could stand with Klitschko. They probably could not. I'l tell you straight up man, high lever boxers like Klitschko Boxers could beat most if not all MMA fighters in a stand up fight. In a MMA fight I am picking the MMA guy. They train 24/7 on how to take a man off his feet. Im sure taking a Boxer off thier feet in the opening seconds wouldn't be too hard. Thats with or without teaching the Boxer some basics like sprawling.

Opinion backed by knowledge rather than emotion. At least you can admit that in the actual stand up fight the MMA guys lose. I still say that in the MMA style of fight where the MMA fighter can use all his tools that the task wouldn't be as easy as you think it would. You're sure it wouldn't be hard to take a boxer off their feet in opening seconds of a fight, but this is where your lack of knowledge in Boxing hurts you. The first thing you'd have to know as the Boxer going into that fight, is that the main objective of the MMA fighter is going to be to get you off your feet, meaning that you would be training to avoid the take downs with your footwork so you do stay vertical.

If you are one of the Klitschko's doing this, that means certain defeat for whomever you are fighting. Vitali is a guy who literally will start with a jab in front of you, and finish with a hook on the other side of you, it's all footwork. I explained it before, if you lunge at me for a take down, all I have to do is backpedal a bit, side step you, or if I have highly skilled hands like a boxer catch you with a punch coming in using your momentum and my own power to knock you out. You seem to think a take down is impossible to avoid if your a boxer or something. I am trying to explain to you how in fact it would be easier to avoid for a boxer because of the superior footwork they often times poses. I will say this is also dependent on the boxers style. That is something you may or may not have heard before "Boxing is all about styles". It's true, there is always one style to beat another if the fighter is smart enough to figure it out, which is what makes for interesting fights.

Dude I know boxing is the sweet science, and I can very much see the difference in the striking, countering, and foot work of boxers. Just as in boxing where one punch sets up another punch. In grappling one transition leads into another transition. In a well trained BJJ atrist every thing they do is leading to something. You say you know this because how well you know Boxing. I am not gonna come out and say because of how much I know about Jiu-Jitsu, but my very good buddy is a blue belt in Jiu Jitsu, and just what from he has taught me in just a few rolling sessions showed me how technical BJJ is. You are always thinking on how to move forward and gain dominant spot. Its more then rolling on the ground man.

Yeah, your buddy has shown you how in practice "theoretically" you can do this or that. In a fight however, it's a different story altogether. That is when the real luck comes into play. As you said, your always trying to figure out how to gain a dominant spot, well if you knew BJJ so well you would already be there instead of trying to figure out a way to get there while rolling on the ground. Like I said, most of these guys I've seen on TV don't seem to have a clue what they are doing or what to do. That's because of the major flaw in MMA and Martial Arts to begin with. They are all choreographed moves, made to counter other choreographed moves. It's situational knowledge, the problem is though that unless you are in that exact scenario than you are left without any answers, which is where you see these guys struggle so much.

Boxing is reaction to action, it's free flowing which is one of the reasons it is a superior form of fighting. Your not limited in what you can do in reaction to this or that, you have to just know what to do, it has to be instinct and second nature to you. Some people don't have those instincts and don't know what to do for instance when a guy throws a jab, hook combo. Some people freeze up mentally once they are in there and don't know what to do, those are probably the majority of people who went from Boxing to MMA.

Is that in a real fight ,alot of the times it ends up on the ground. If you are a highly trained boxer, then what are you gonna do when the fight goes to the ground after somebody trips you, or anything, to get to the ground in a street fight. Or what if somebody blindsides you and fall, and they go in for the kill on you, then what do you do.

Real street fights generally end up on the ground because regular people on the streets don't really know how to fight. If you knew how to box you could end the fight with a couple shots and end the scenario, especially if it's against some random guy on the streets who doesn't know how to take a punch right, like most of the guys in MMA fighting with their heads way up, and necks. In a situation however where you do go to the ground, the truth is your chance is as good as the other persons no matter who knows what. What do you do? Whatever you have to do to get back on your feet. I can't give you a definitive answer because it all depends on what is happening at any given moment. There are a lot of things you can do. My point is that if you know how to Box it's more than likely not going to the ground because you will be able to end it very quickly with your fists.

Here is a little education on that matter as well, another reason Boxing is superior. Your legs are the strongest part of your body correct? Correct. So you would think that you would want to be able to use your legs to kick. Hu-uh. While the legs are strong, they are also not near as fast as your hands due to the range of movement that is takes to get your leg around to the point of contact. This is why there is emphasis put on fists instead. They are much quicker, and through the utilization of your legs, core, and arms you can hit with as much power in a fraction of the same time it would take you to kick someone, or take them to the ground for a submission or anything else. You can inflict the most amount of damage, the fastest with just your fists. If you can't get from within my reach because I am jabbing your lips off, you can't do any of that MMA shit.

That is the reason MMA seems tougher to me, because its more the mastering one dimension. You can type another essay telling why I am wrong or whatever, but that is my thoughts and I stand by them. By the way, I was in Jiu-Jitsu for two months before I quit do to family problems. So no, I am not a hyper killing machine like Segal or even a skillfull grappler, but I know more then average Joe blow on the ground.

It seems tougher to you because of the way it has been marketed and explained to you. It seems tougher because you can understand it in a way you can't understand Boxing. Not only that, you could jump right into MMA and Boxing would be tougher to get into and actually do. So the more accessible, highly marketed of the two wins with you. You have had MMA explained to you and just from watching it on TV you don't have to think about the action because it's not as scientific and skilled as Boxing making it more entertaining to you. There isn't as much to comprehend in what is going on. Your little experience in Jiu-Jitsu may give you a minimal amount of personal experience to speak from and that is good for you. But, it does not equip you to challenge Boxing because you know more than the average Joe on the ground. It;s not a pissing match so I'm not going to go on about my extensive experience across the board but I have been studying all of this shit my entire life, I know what I am talking about.

 

[The Roid Rage]

In MMA, James Toney's boxing accomplishments really don't mean much man. So he was a world class boxer. MMA has had cross overs from World class Kickboxers,from world class BJJ artist ,and world class Collegiate wrestlers, and before they prove their self in are oh so barbaric death cage, then their accolades don't mean shit. This is a different sport. He was a great Boxer but until he comes over and fight under MMA rules and shows off that world class Boxing effectively, those accomplishments don't mean shit

That is an opinion, and if not what makes it a fact? MMA has never had a boxer the caliber of James Toney cross over. Admittedly he is well past his prime, but that's also why he is going to MMA. Because he knows that with his boxing ability and some training in other areas he can still dominate MMA if he wants. That is where guys too old to be fighting elsewhere go. Boxers generally don't fight into their late 30's or 40's. Bernard Hopkins is an exception to that rule because he only got better with age like a fucking fine wine or something, that dude is ridiculous. He is the type of guy who is so defensive, technical, and intelligent in the ring that his age has seeming not mattered for years, he out thinks his opponents. He was also a middleweight champion for 12 years straight.

Back to business though. Whether there have been wrestlers, kick boxers, BJJ practitioners, or whatever else come over to MMA doesn't matter because they aren't Boxers. The Prize Ring of Boxing is the highest level of competition of the planet, and that is where real champions are crowned. I would say, until any of those MMA guys make the transition to Boxing and are successful at it, any accomplishments in MMA are null and void in comparison to those accomplished in Boxing. You act as if someone going from Boxing to MMA is a step up when it is more of a step down than anything. Remember, James Toney is finished in Boxing, that is why he is going to MMA, he can still be competitive in that sport because of his superior handskills, defensive skills, and footwork.

How can you sit there are say that this guy's Boxing career is irrelevant to MMA? So you mean to tell me that his experience in 70 something fights, multiple championships, and accomplishments like being 1 of only 2 fighters in history to move from Middleweight up to Heavyweight and win a title at heavyweight is irrelevant? What are you smoking and where can I get some? It is relevant because it shows that he has more ring experience than 3 MMA legends combined, and has been knocking out better competition for longer than any of them, and done it more consistently as well, meaning he is a higher caliber fighter period. The only reason I would not say he will completely mop the floor with these MMA guys is because Toney has been fighting longer than he should have, at a higher weight than he should have. He is a natural Middleweight, but is not disciplined enough to stick to the diet necessary to sustain that weight.

He has taken a lot of punishment over the years, and is frankly kind of spent, for Boxing that is. I don't know how he will do in MMA, but I do think that if he catches anyone with one of those measured shots which he can do if nothing else, people are going to drop. I just hope he sticks mostly to his Boxing and doesn't try to fight like an MMA guy as much by voluntarily going to the ground and so on because obviously he isn't trained in that so he would put himself at a great disadvantage doing so.

How so? I actually watch the sport, and often discuss it with other punks as you have labeled us. I actually care enough about the sport to research it. I also find it amusing how you said you watch the shit in the beggining, but stopped once it was trying to be marketed as a real sport. So you like it whens its extra violent, but when it gets big and less violent, you start to talk about it like its human cock fighting?

How so? because you have offered practically no factual or technical argument to support your case, and made statements throughout that show you don't know as much as you think you do. That is a problem with MMA fans. You guys think you know MMA because you watch it. Maybe not you particularly as much as the majority of other fans, but that is a trend I have noticed with MMA fans. I have researched all kinds of Martial Arts, Boxing, MMA, on and on and trained in more disciplines than just Boxing, and have experience in more than Boxing as well. I speak from real experience and education that has formed my opinions and views on the matter. I am a natural athlete, been good at everything I ever did including MMA.

Glad to hear you find something amusing about this as I have been shutting down every argument you had to make. Glad that amuses you. I never stopped watching "Cage Fighting", I just stopped liking it when they tried to front it as a real sport. At least before they were honest about it, and they weren't trying to act like it was something it's not.

Some of my dismay is also due to the fans though too. Look around man, you see so many people who think this is the end all be all of physical competition and haven't even given Boxing a chance because it's not called "Ultimate Fighting" even though it is the superior sport. There are all these guys walking around acting like their some kind of bad asses because they are wearing UFC shirts or Tap Out shirts and shit like that, or because they watch MMA so they are real tough guys suddenly. MMA is full of high school bullies who couldn't hack it in other sports including Boxing, and want to look like bad asses and get laid, so they try to be MMA fighters. They get unnecessarily hurt in the amateurs because no one is looking out for them or training them right either and while I hate those kind of guys, I don't think they deserve to be exploited and used up by MMA even if it is due to their own stupidity.If you try to go out for Boxing you have to show your shit first and they will tell you whether or not you should or shouldn't pursue it so that the above mentioned scenario doesn't happen. Boxing actually tries to protect it's Boxers on the amateur level much more so than MMA.

That is where a lot of my beef with MMA comes from too, the amateur ranks. It is so crooked, so corrupt, and so unprofessional in the way they handle everything it's sickening. Boxing has had it's past but they have fixed the sport on that level at least. I read about a guy recently from here in Iowa who is paralyzed from the neck down because he was fighting MMA on the amateur level and the ****** he was fighting dropped him on his neck and head because he wasn't trained properly to be doing what he was trying to do and fucked up. There was another story along with that one about a kid who was 17, lied about his age, and was allowed to fight at one of these night clubs where the have amateur MMA fights. He had no training, wasn't of age, no one checked to see, and he was matches up against a guy with years of experience(basically a pro fighting amateur). That kid now has permanent eye socket damage, a broken jaw, and is going to need reconstructive face surgery to look normal again because his cheek bone was also collapsed and shattered. That's fucking bullshit, and I don't respect a "Sport" that condones that kind of treatment of people. The promoter didn't offer to help him, didn't get in trouble for it somehow, and basically just said "fuck him, it's not my problem".

I've read about guys getting massive concussions and passing out due to the trauma, and these places put them in a room in the back and just leave them there. There is no concern for their health or safety at all. There are tons of these club fighters and they just pick random inexperienced people from the crowd and beat the shit out of them to pad their records, and this shit happens everywhere, not just here in Iowa. It's that kind of shit that turns me away from MMA. If it's that bad at the amateur level, it can't be much better on the pro circuit as far as the treatment of the fighters goes. There is little to no regulation of the amateur circuit and the above mentioned is what happens to people for no reason. People are told that this is the thing to do, and think they can do it because they "Know" so much about it, just like you, and maybe fight on a dare or just for the hell of it, and then these guys get matched up against people who are really pros fighting on the amateur level taking money under the table from promoters, then they get seriously injured, and these places aren't required to carry any kind of insurance for those people who get hurt real bad, don't offer to help them, and don't even have medical staff on the grounds to tend to them in the event they do get hurt really bad. They just say "Fuck you, thanks for getting your ass beat" and send them on their way beaten the fuck out of. That is MMA. That is the nasty, cruel, and crooked nature of it, and some of the main reasons it is a fucking joke, and why it is a shame that people actually think it is this "Ultimate Fighting" of some kind and get into it thinking they have a shot at becoming some world beater, some champion, when in fact they have a better chance of being permanently and severely injured.

Boxing isn't like that. They aren't about to do that kind of shit to people, and they don't. That is because there is honor in Boxing, pride, and respect. They respect their fellow man. MMA fighters are mostly assholes that think they are tougher than they really are, and stoop to levels as mentioned above to prove so. You will never find that in Boxing, it's not viscous like MMA where they want people to just go for the jugular, and therein lies the main difference. One is respectful and the other isn't. One is two guys proving who is the more skilled athlete, and the other is two guys trying to be a couple bad asses and add inches to their dicks by being "MMA Fighters".

Just like boxing, only in boxing they know enough to really hurt their opponents, shown by how many deaths are compared to MMA. Its just as barbaric. Its techniacal too, don't get me wrong, but saying all this about just MMA is bull shit. In boxing its the same thing. Two men enter, one man leaves a winner, its just as much as a goddamn pitbull fight as MMA is. Please tell what the difference is, what you can't go to the ground?

The death rate in Boxing doesn't mean it's down on the level of MMA. It shows that this is the real deal and that it is dangerous. It shows that sometimes these guys who deliver the most devastating punches on the planet take too much damage sometimes, and push themselves too far at time. That is due to a little thing you won't find in MMA called "Heart". The personality and mentality of Boxing is completely different. You just don't know enough about Boxing to make the distinction. One is a respectable sport, the other is a glorified tough man contest, plain and simple. The rules, the practices, and the athletes themselves show it. MMA is viscous and mean spirited. It's all about going for the jugular, beating a man through any means possible practically, and winning by any means no matter how cheap and unsportsmanlike it may be. No honor or self respect. Maybe it wouldn't be such a joke if they didn't beat each other on the ground like fucking cave men, play twister with each other, and actually fought like respectable skilled athletes instead of a bunch of "Tough Men".

 

[gd]

I'm not going to say that there isn't any truth to your argument, as there was definetly some things I agreed with, but for the most part your post was complete crap and made you come off as a condecending jerk, but from what I understand that's you're "character", so that's not surprising. Also, I'd like to point out that I'm by no means an "MMA guy" like most of the other posters in this thread. Definetly more of a casual fan.

First off, I agree with you about the new stars in boxing thing. Boxing is popular enough where there will always be a few guys that everyone will talk about as a "dream fight" simply to keep that popularity. I don't think I knew who Pacquiao was 3 years ago, but I'd be excited for him against Mayweather. However, that being said, those are literally the only 2 fighters I really care about at this point, so it's not like boxing as a whole is popular or appealing to the casual fan. Most of the time it's only a few guys.

You are also very right in saying that MMA fighters get gassed extremely easily. The majority of the fights I see involve guys who look to be in about as good of shape as any Average Joe on the street. Of course, I've never participate in an MMA fight so I couldn't possibly imagine what it's like in reality, but you'd think they'd be in better condition if it's their profession.

Here's where the bullshit starts. Saying things like it doesn't take skill to be an MMA fighter and they are cowards are just ridiculous. You even stated yourself how untrained fighters nearly got killed by trained professionals. Obviously there is plenty of technique and skill involved in the sport. I'm not going to say it inolves more skill than boxing, but it definetly isn't easy to try and perfect multiple facets of fighting (boxing, kickboxing, bjj, etc.) To say otherwise is just asinine. Calling MMA fighters cowards because they fight differently than boxers is quite stupid as well. TO me, it just seems like an attack on the sport for the sake of attacking it.

You asked for examples of cleaning up the sport, and I assure you there have been quite a bit since the beginnings of MMA. Taking the UFC as an example. A little more than 10 years ago headbutts, groin strikes, hair pulling, and kicks to a downed opponent were banned. Obviously the sport has evolved and is definetly not a brutal charade or whatever you want to call it. You say it is more "brutal" than boxing, despite the fact it is a far safer sport when done properly.

Obviously you're a big boxing fan, which is fine as I have nothing against it. However, MMA is certainly the more popular sport at the moment and taking pot shots at it won't change that. You can talk all you want about how you and boxing are so "superior", but that's just not the case. MMA is simply a different sport, not anything worse nor anything better. It all depends on your perspective.

O ya, as for the actual subject. Toney in the UFC is very interesting. I'd definetly be excited to see a fight between Toney and Kimbo. Are Kimbo's ground skills far enough along to use them effectively against Toney? Does Toney have any ground skills? Whoever Toney faces, I'll be watching as will plently of others.

 

[jmt225]

B.J. Penn for example is a legend in MMA and one of their hollowed veterans, his record is only 15-5-1 and that is what they call this guy, he is so highly revered, he's so great, blah blah blah. In Boxing that record wouldn't get him a shot at one of the more insignificant titles, what does that say? Manny Pacquiao has a record of 51-3-2, that's a champion. Hell, The WBC Super Middleweight Champion Carl Froch has a record of 26-0 and has been defending the title since 08 successfully, that's a guy who's moved up relatively fast too. Froch is one of the best prizefighters on the planet, but you have probably never heard of him, seen him fight, or you might have just "heard" of him. If he had a record like that in MMA he would be considered the greatest of all time, and in Boxing that is so far away from that acclaim it's ridiculous.

Out of that tremendously long post, this right here is what I wanted to address most of all.

That may be BJ Penn's overall record, but do you know BJ Penn's record at 155 pounds, his natural weight, is? 11-1-1, with the loss and draw being against opponents he would eventually beat. All his other loses were against guys who at fight time outweighed him by a good 20 pounds.

Now, looking at it like that, how would Floyd Mayweather fair against someone 20 pounds bigger than him? Shit, why do you think Mayweather has continuously ducked Paul Williams all these years? Because he doesn't want to fight anyone that much bigger than him. Hell, him and Pac during the fucking fight negotiations bitched about the weight being at either 145 or 147, if I remember correctly.

Weight is a big reason why someone like BJ Penn gets those losses. You see, unlike boxing, when a person becomes dominate in their division in MMA, they get bored and decide to challenge themselves, rather than just continue to beat people who are nowhere near their level.

Moreover, a lot of the best in MMA's losses came early on in their career. You see, unlike boxing, if you're a prospect in MMA, that doesn't automatically get you 20 cans for your first 20 fights. You fight good fighters right from the get-go, not when you have a nice little record that your trainers and managers got for you by handpicking opponents that they knew were walk-throughs for their guys.

And lastly, it's funny you bring up BJ Penn and Manny Pacquiao in the same paragraph, because Freddy Roach (Pacquiao's trainer) has said that BJ Penn is by far and large the best boxer in MMA, and would easily compete against the best boxers in and around 155 pounds. So, BJ Penn wasn't the best person to call out right there, Rage. Just look at this handspeed:

[YOUTUBE]hJJXLunXlZ0[/YOUTUBE]

The fact of the matter is, BJ Penn is truly one of the greatest fighters on this Earth. From boxing, to Jiu-Jitsu, to Wrestling... the guy is superior to everyone in each of those qualities individually in his weight class. And when it comes to boxing and Jiu-Jitsu... BJ can absolutely compete against the best in the World in both.

 

[Via Armbar]

First and foremost, MMA is a sport for many reasons. The one that matters the most however is the fact that it's recognized by an athletic commision. Above all else, the fact that it is recognized by the people who's opinions matter the most should be enough to stop that fucking argument right there. So what your going to say is that even though it's recognized as a sport...it's not a sport? Well fuck everytime I watch a hockey game I thought I was watching a sport. You learn somethign new everyday.

The whole sport has evolved. I absolutely agree that in it's early stages, mma was nothing more than human cockfighting. There was little to no skill involved and a majority of the fighters had no previous training or experience. We are talking 25 years ago mind you. Even at the first UFC, you looked at the guys that advanced in the competition and even they looked nearly clueless. So at that point in time, I will agree that it was a primitive and obtuse competition consisting of nothing more than inflicting damage to another human being. This is where you go and look up the definition of evolution. The sport is imeasurably different from it's earliest stages, as was boxing. Do you think there were Fraziers in boxings infancy? Was there a Roy Jones Jr. early in the century? I'll bet all three of my testicles there were no such fighters. Every single sport evolves. All of them. Records are broken, legacies are tested and legends are dethroned. It's in the nature of the game. You can look at boxers from the first quarter of the century and see how primitive and devolved the sport was. Every competition is born somewhere from something.

What pains me the most is people that try and argue the differences between mma and boxing when they have far more in common. When you break it down, the ultimate goal of both sports is to either render your opponnent unconscience or make them physically or verbally submit. Even though submissions can cause joint and ligiment damage, most consider it less dangerous than being knocked unconscience. Yet they don't have that option in boxing do they? Last time I checked, the only option you have is knocking your opponent out, or riding points until the fight is over and you take a decision. I may not be a rocket scientist, but I'd consider a sport where your only option is to knock an opponent unconscience far more brutal than one where you can win by other means. Still you claim that mma is inhumane and a devolutionary step in the wrong direction. Excuse me while I blow my runny nose, I'm very allergic to bullshit. Face it, the ultimate goal of both is the same. When you say that knees are too brutal and wrong as opposed to punching somebody in the face, thats like saying lethal injection is a less damaging form of capital punishment. The ultimate end is the same. Don't be so damn biased.

There's something I need to understand. Somebody that trains for years, learning the best way to punch somebody in the face takes tremendous skill. Somebody that trains for years to do the same thing but also adds kicks, submission and wrestling to their overall game however, they are unskilled roosters in what your calling a human cockfight. That must be cool, knowing multiple pro boxers AND mixed martial artists and their respective training regiments. You would think that as someone who doesn't respect or even know anything about mma wouldn't have friends in that business. Fighters in mma train for years, in some cases a majority of their lives. They work just as hard as any boxer. Call me crazy, but I would think that two people who train just as hard and long should earn an equal amount of respect. Call me crazy again, but you would think somebody who wants to great in all areas of combat would be respected. I'm not a great basketball player, but I sure can shoot a nice free throw. If only there was a sport where you didn't play basketball, just took free throw shots.

Im a boxing fan. I really am and I have been for years, longer even then I've been an mma fan. I remember watching Douglas upset Iron Mike, I remember watching one of the most talented athletes in the world in Roy Jones Jr. defeat Bernard Hopkins. I know the sweet science of boxing, but I'm not biased. The reason boxing isn't what is was is, more than anything else, because of the shady promoters. You have countless titles with more and more being created all the time. UFC has far less titles, yet you claim they need more weight classes to seem like a real sport? Don't know about you, but I'd rather be THE champion of my weightclass then one out of 20 champions in my weightclass. You talk about boxers having a larger win to loss ratio. Let's be honest and inbiased here for a second, it's no secret to anybody that there's a ton of relatively big name boxers who have heavily padded their record by fighting cans. The managers have so much authority in the sport, more than any other. There could be extremely talented fighters who won't fight anybody on their level for 15 fights because of promoters and greedy managers padding their records. That is undeniable. In mma, you get a couple fights before you get a bigger name. Sometimes it's only a few, sometimes it's more. The champions of boxing have far fewer legitimate contenders than mma champions. Common sense would tell you that it's harder for a champion with 4 contenders to stay on top then a champion with only 2 contenders. Wait what's that you say? Boxers are just superior atheletes and would destroy any mma fighter in boxing match? Sure and genital warts itch. A near majority of mma fighters would lose to boxers in boxing match. That's works both ways though, as a majority of boxers would badly lose to an mma fighter in a cage. Good boxing is a tremendous skill to have in mma. Yet, it's not the most important nor succesful. Wrestling is THE best base to have in mixed martial arts. There has been countless fights where great boxers were taken down and will and either submitted or knocked out. No, pro boxers wouldn't do any better in an mma match with a good wrestler. Maybe if those said boxers were former wrestlers. Wait no they aren't because they never trained in anything else. If only time travel were possible.

Boxing isn't what it was. The sport has been oversaturated with greedy managers and fishy promoters. There remain so few dream fights now. I honestly wish that things weren't the way they are. The wounds of professional boxing are self-inflicted. Nobody stood up and said enough is enough. Individual prosperity took top priority and nobody looked back. I still love the sport, and I can't imaging that changing. I know when things are bad however. I know when things are in the shitter. Mixed martial arts is a different beast, yet ultimately similar. Athletes competing at their personal highest level. Training their whole lives to be the best at what they do, to be at the top of their game. Brothers from another mother maybe, but their origins start at the same nutsack.

 

[Mufasa]

Do you know anything about the history of boxing Game Rage? It was brutal and equally as deserving of being called "human cockfighting" as the early days of MMA. Reforms had to be gradually introduced to clean up boxing to make it a legitimate sporting event.

I'm sorry but a world class grappler would be able to get any boxer who hasn't trained in proper take down defense to the mat. It wouldn't be difficult. Even if the boxer choose to run away the whole fight using his footwork, after eating enough legkicks, he would loose the spring in his step.

I don't understand your criticism of grappling. Grappling is as old as punching. It takes tremendous skill. It isn't cheap. Someone who is skilled will be able to defend themselves even when they are on bottom either by sweeping their opponent or submitting them. You say it's cheap because it involves one person maneuvering themselves into a dominate position, but that really isn't different from boxers using their footwork to gain bettering position. The argument "why don't boxers stand completely still and fight like men?" would be pretty much the same argument you're making. It's a bad argument. Instead of prohibiting maneuvering into dominate positions we should just say let the fighters demonstrate their skills in defending and maneuvering into dominate positions of their own.

It takes a tremendous amount of skill to compete in mixed martial arts at a high level. Professional Boxer Ray Mercer has recently gone on record as saying MMA training was more difficult and more complex than boxing.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Ok, Most of this if not almost all of it I have already covered and said something about. If you actually read all the posts I wrote, which most of you didn't apparently. I made good arguments about all the points you are trying to raise.

But what am I supposed to do then? There are a few of you making your cases, and I know I can beat them. Take a look though, at how much that is to respond to, and tell me why my posts are long. If I am going to respond to you, I am going to try and explain myself. Also I am not going to dodge any of your info which I thought you all would have respect for, but apparently that's just a nuisance for someone to be thorough.

I already have went through almost all of those arguments, you just weren't paying attention until people got sand in their snatch about it. I could probably smash that just by pulling excerpts from my other posts which would make you look even worse because I already shot those arguments to swish cheese.

So am I supposed to just not respond even though I know I can counter those arguments? I'm just not supposed to challenge anyone? Make anyone think or check their info? Just let everyone be right, and tell me I am wrong? You tell me folks. What should I do then since your all such higher authorities and I am so far beneath your greatness?

 

[Via Armbar]

Ok, Most of this if not almost all of it I have already covered and said something about. If you actually read all the posts I wrote, which most of you didn't apparently. I made good arguments about all the points you are trying to raise.

But what am I supposed to do then? There are a few of you making your cases, and I know I can beat them. Take a look though, at how much that is to respond to, and tell me why my posts are long. If I am going to respond to you, I am going to try and explain myself. Also I am not going to dodge any of your info which I thought you all would have respect for, but apparently that's just a nuisance for someone to be thorough.

I already have went through almost all of those arguments, you just weren't paying attention until people got sand in their snatch about it. I could probably smash that just by pulling excerpts from my other posts which would make you look even worse because I already shot those arguments to swish cheese.

So am I supposed to just not respond even though I know I can counter those arguments? I'm just not supposed to challenge anyone? Make anyone think or check their info? Just let everyone be right, and tell me I am wrong? You tell me folks. What should I do then since your all such higher authorities and I am so far beneath your greatness?

You spent the time to write this as oppossed to counter pointing my arguments. You haven't adressed a single one of my posts, and no you haven't adressed them in previous posts. I based my entire post on your originals, so the least you can do is counter my points with something other than what if and coulda been scenarios in which pro boxers dodge the world class wrestlers of mma in Superman liek fashion. That's not fact sir, that's a hypothetical scenario, one in which that carries no real world merit. You can't just shake your head and say no no no. You've managed to terribly confuse fact with opinion, and what ifs with what is.

 

[Mufasa]

If you actually read all the posts I wrote, which most of you didn't apparently. I made good arguments about all the points you are trying to raise.

No. You never made good arguments. You argument is basically "MMA sucks because I say it sucks".

You say things like Jiu-Jitsu is luck and that anybody who fights with anything other than punches aren't really fighters. Those are ridiculous assertions based on nothing more than a strongly biased person's opinion. At no point in this conversation did you make a good argument.

I think it's fair to say that Jui-Jitsu is much more reliant on luck than Boxing by a long shot. I can guarantee that actually because of how well I know Boxing alone. You see, in Boxing every punch leads to another punch. The first one isn't the one that is necessarily meant to land, it's the next one going to the area that becomes open from you blocking the first shot, then the next one that lands harder, etc... Now, I won't be so bold as to say that the occasional lucky punch hasn't or doesn't happen, that would be blatant lying. What I will say is that taking a man down and making him submit is one thing, but putting a man down into submission or beating a man with your fists to the point that someone else stops it is another and a much harder task.

Stuff like this shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. It takes many years of hard work to develop the skills necessary to become a black belt in Brazillian Jui-Jitsu. Submissions don't just happen. Taking someone down and moving from full guard to half guard to side mount to full mount in order to pull off an arm bar is very difficult when working against a skilled opponent. All the different transitions to get into the spot where you can pull off the submission take work. It's not just instantaneous submission, you have to work to set them up just like you set up the knock out punch.

 

[The Roid Rage]

You spent the time to write this as oppossed to counter pointing my arguments. You haven't adressed a single one of my posts, and no you haven't adressed them in previous posts.

Don't act like I'm ducking you. I simply made a point. You all bitch about my long posts, but then write rather long posts yourself that you expect me to respond to. So I was asking you if you were ok with it, if you would sit through it, if I should respond. Looks like you are all too eager to jump in the fight and have been from the beginning. Who am I to deny you? You got it.

I based my entire post on your originals, so the least you can do is counter my points with something other than what if and coulda been scenarios in which pro boxers dodge the world class wrestlers of mma in Superman like fashion. That's not fact sir, that's a hypothetical scenario, one in which that carries no real world merit. You can't just shake your head and say no no no. You've managed to terribly confuse fact with opinion, and what ifs with what is

What "what if and coulda been" scenarios would you be speaking of? You must be talking about my writings on the superior footwork in Boxing. I never made it out to be anyone doing anything in superman like fashion, I just explained how simple it is to avoid those tactics when you know how to move on your feet the right way. It's called fighting on the outside. That's not make believe it's tactic. I've been explaining to you the tactics a boxer would use to beat an MMA fighter and why it would work against that style. It would work because of the way it would exploit the weaknesses of MMA. Also Since you always go into a fight with a game plan, that's not far fetched at all.


This is what I am going to do. There are a few responses I have yet to answer, and since you want it so bad I am going to go for it. I will not however respond to every one of them in one post. I will go through one by one. So Armbar, you've got one coming. Mustafa, you've got one coming. And JMT, you also have one coming. I will try to make them as short as I can, and we can go from there.

 

[Via Armbar]

Don't act like I'm ducking you. I simply made a point. You all bitch about my long posts, but then write rather long posts yourself that you expect me to respond to. So I was asking you if you were ok with it, if you would sit through it, if I should respond. Looks like you are all too eager to jump in the fight and have been from the beginning. Who am I to deny you? You got it.



What "what if and coulda been" scenarios would you be speaking of? You must be talking about my writings on the superior footwork in Boxing. I never made it out to be anyone doing anything in superman like fashion, I just explained how simple it is to avoid those tactics when you know how to move on your feet the right way. It's called fighting on the outside. That's not make believe it's tactic. I've been explaining to you the tactics a boxer would use to beat an MMA fighter and why it would work against that style. It would work because of the way it would exploit the weaknesses of MMA. Also Since you always go into a fight with a game plan, that's not far fetched at all.


This is what I am going to do. There are a few responses I have yet to answer, and since you want it so bad I am going to go for it. I will not however respond to every one of them in one post. I will go through one by one. So Armbar, you've got one coming. Mustafa, you've got one coming. And JMT, you also have one coming. I will try to make them as short as I can, and we can go from there.

No. See they are what if scenarios because your just throwing out there what you THINK would happen in that situation. I'm sorry, but that is a total hypothetical question. We are in agreement that boxers has superior footwork than most general mma fighters. There are honestly only a handful of mma fighters who are good enough boxers to hang with the really good pros. On the opposite side of the coin, you have very few pro boxers that can hang and grapple with jujitsu guys. How many other cross over stars have there been in sports? Michael Jordan is arguably the greatest baskball player of all time, and yet he was a mediocre baseball player.

What you are trying to say is that a world champion caliber wrestler like Brock Lesnar or Randy Couture couldn't take down somebody with no wrestling background or skill? That's absolutely ridiculous. Could a boxer potentially knock out an mma fighter as he's going for a tackdown? Absolutely, more than once even. Is it likely? I seriously doubt it when your dealing with wrestling champions like the gentlemen I mentioned. I gaurentee nine times out of ten, a good wrestler could take down a great boxer. Man, if only that boxer had trained in some other form of combat, he wouldn't be so fucked on the ground. Wait, I forgot only ''******'' have enough know how on the human anatomy to be able to make a grown man verbally submit to a submission. Only ''******'' fight with anything other then their hands. I've always thought a knee to the face was pretty macho, not the last minute effort of a beaten man. Remind me to call the president of the NBA and let him know that players can only shoot two pointers from now on, anything else is dirty and against the rules.

I can't seem to understand how you can talk so badly of something you clearly know nothing about. You've said absolutely ludacris things about some of the greatest mixed martial artists in the world having no talent. Every single comment you have made has been litered with such biased observations it's mind blowing. When you act like that, you give up the right to be taken seriously. You aren't an outside observer, your a bitter fan who can't accept the fact that something they love is in a state of ruin and it has top competition.

 

[Mr. TM]

MMA is a sport on the rise. Boxing is on the decline.

I think it is important to note that MMA, coming from the early 90s as a 1 on 1 fight, with no protection, with any weight class. Since then, the contest has become legitimate, weight classes were added, more and more protection to the fighters, in the form of gloves, mouth pieces, and joint passing.

Boxing on the other hand still has many of the same problems it always had. Shots to vital organs and to the head are causing injuries, and early retirements to talent.

Boxing is dying, and MMA is growing. Most of the upper sales records this year for PPVs were for MMA, specifically UFC. That sows the great growth of the company.

 

[The Roid Rage]

That may be BJ Penn's overall record, but do you know BJ Penn's record at 155 pounds, his natural weight, is? 11-1-1, with the loss and draw being against opponents he would eventually beat. All his other loses were against guys who at fight time outweighed him by a good 20 pounds.

Regardless the record is 15-5-1, which has earned him acclaim as a legend of MMA, multiple title reigns, and he is one of their hallowed seasoned veterans. As we all know that wouldn't get you shit in Boxing. It takes much more to be a champion in the prize ring. At 21 fights, with a record of 15-5-1 in Boxing you wouldn't even be considered for a title shot unless it was one of the more meaningless titles (NABA or something like that). That is one thing that I think makes Boxing a superior sport. You have to accomplish a lot more to be considered much of anything, and if you want to be considered a legend at some point your going to have to do something truly amazing because the standards are already so high. Take a look at the records of some of these all time greats in Boxing.

Sugar Ray Robinson - welterweight and five-time middleweight champion
Record: 175-19-6, 109 KO's; Career: 1940-65, 24 years active.

Henry Armstrong - only fighter to hold three titles (featherweight, lightweight and welterweight) simultaneously
Record: 150-21-9, 101 KO's; Career: 1933-45, 13 years active.

Joe Louis - defended the heavyweight championship a record 25 times
Record: 68-3, 54 KO's; Career: 1934-51, 14 years active.

Willie Pep - featherweight champion who was a brilliant boxer
Record: 230-11-1, 65 KO's; Career: 1940-66, 22 years active.

Roberto Duran - dominant lightweight of 1970's, who also won titles in three other weight classes
Record: 102-15, 70 KO's; Career: 1967-99, 31 years active.

Harry Greb - middleweight champion and only man ever to beat Gene Tunney
Record: 115-8-3, 51 KO's, 179 ND; Career: 1913-26, 14 years active.

Take a look, some of these guys have as many or more losses that a lot of these MMA legends have fights all together.

Now, looking at it like that, how would Floyd Mayweather fair against someone 20 pounds bigger than him? Shit, why do you think Mayweather has continuously ducked Paul Williams all these years? Because he doesn't want to fight anyone that much bigger than him. Hell, him and Pac during the fucking fight negotiations bitched about the weight being at either 145 or 147, if I remember correctly.

How would any fighter do against a guy who outweighs them by 20 pounds? Obviously not good, doesn't matter who it is at the professional level. That is why the weight classes are so tight in Boxing . That is why 140 and 147 are different divisions, size matters at that point and every pound counts. If anyone was looking out for Penn they shouldn't have let him do that anyways unless he was actually moving up in weight to fight at that level. Otherwise my hats off to Penn if he just said “FTW, I'm a welterweight and I'm going to fight a fucking Middleweight for the hell of it.” I will admit that takes some balls.

Don't get me going on Mayweather. You want to see a real word fort just ask me to talk about this guy. I fucking hate Mayweather which might surprise you because I am such a big Boxing fan, but I can't stand him for exactly the type of thing you mentioned. He hasn't just ducked Paul Williams, he's ducked anyone in his league for years and as you said, always fought smaller opponents. The deal with Pacman and him wasn't really about weight, it was about Mayweather trying to find any excuse to not have to fight a guy who will put him on his ass. The funny thing is that Manny is the smaller guy in this scenario too. The fight fell apart because Mayweather was trying to make the rules for the fight regarding blood testing, and that is the job of the sanctioning commission not the fighters.

Weight is a big reason why someone like BJ Penn gets those losses.

That wasn't the issue, I explained this above.

You see, unlike boxing, when a person becomes dominate in their division in MMA, they get bored and decide to challenge themselves, rather than just continue to beat people who are nowhere near their level.

Unlike Boxing huh? Don't watch much of it or know much about it do you? Guys are jumping weight divisions all the time. That has become the thing to do over the last 15 years or so. Pacquiao started at 112 lbs and now fights at 147 that's a 35 lb difference. He's also beaten the best in every division on the way winning a record 7 titles across 7 different divisions. In addition to that, he is the only boxer to win the lineal championships in four different weight classes. Roy Jones and James Toney both started as middleweights and moved up to heavyweight to win significant titles there. De La Hoya has defeated 17 world champions and has won 10 world titles in six different weight classes. The list goes on and on. You are trying to say the whole sport of Boxing does what Mayweather has done which is obviously not the case.

Moreover, a lot of the best in MMA's losses came early on in their career. You see, unlike boxing, if you're a prospect in MMA, that doesn't automatically get you 20 cans for your first 20 fights

That is an assumption and more of an opinion than anything carrying no fact with it at all.

You fight good fighters right from the get-go

Oh so in MMA these guys are already really good fighters from the start, but in Boxing it's all a bunch of nobodies from the start? That makes sense.

not when you have a nice little record that your trainers and managers got for you by handpicking opponents that they knew were walk-throughs for their guys.

This is still an assumption. Your assuming that is the case with all these fighters. In Boxing you are matched very evenly based on weight, current skills, amount of training, and in ring experience. At the beginning of a Boxing career neither of you are THAT good, or you've proven in the Amateurs that you are good, and then you will be placed against a guy in the pro's with a comparable amateur record, and small pro record so that the two of you are closer in experience. There is a difference between matching up fighters, and handpicking them. Once again you are applying the Floyd Mayweather stigma to the entire sport. Sure, that is one guy who has done that shit his whole career, and I couldn't agree with you more on anything you had negative to say about him as a result, but that is not the sport my friend, that is one individual.

And lastly, it's funny you bring up BJ Penn and Manny Pacquiao in the same paragraph, because Freddy Roach (Pacquiao's trainer) has said that BJ Penn is by far and large the best boxer in MMA, and would easily compete against the best boxers in and around 155 pounds. So, BJ Penn wasn't the best person to call out right there, Rage.

First of all, I just pulled B.J. Penn out of thin air as an example for one point not my whole fucking argument. What a coincidence though, that the best Boxer in MMA, is also one of the greatest of all time in MMA? Wonder if that has anything to do with his superior striking ability as compared to the majority of other MMA fighters? If he is good enough to fight a real boxer in that weight class good for him, that is one good example out of an entire sport.

The fact of the matter is, BJ Penn is truly one of the greatest fighters on this Earth. From boxing, to Jiu-Jitsu, to Wrestling... the guy is superior to everyone in each of those qualities individually in his weight class. And when it comes to boxing and Jiu-Jitsu... BJ can absolutely compete against the best in the World in both.

Looks like he wasn't superior to at least 5 people no matter what time or in what weight class he was in LOL. He might be one of those guys who is just athletic enough to be good at everything he does. That's how I have always been, a natural athlete. I've been good or above average at every sport I ever played and every discipline I've trained in. Fact of the matter is though, that he has a record that wouldn't amount to much in Boxing which I believe goes to show that there are much higher standards in Boxing than in MMA. That is just common sense at work here.

 

[The Roid Rage]

First and foremost, MMA is a sport for many reasons. The one that matters the most however is the fact that it's recognized by an athletic commision. Above all else, the fact that it is recognized by the people who's opinions matter the most should be enough to stop that fucking argument right there.

I already covered this, but I will go back over it for you since you missed it. My point was that just because MMA has been regulated by higher authorities does not mean it is a real sport. Proof positive is professional wrestling which is governed and regulated by the same athletic commissions as Boxing and MMA. It was too brutal to be sanctioned by a commission at one point, so now they are more organized and there are rules, standards, and practices they must follow that they never did before. That still doesn't make it a sport, if the case were any different than we could say all day that professional wrestling is a real sport too because they are recognized by a sanctioning body.

So what your going to say is that even though it's recognized as a sport...it's not a sport? Well fuck every time I watch a hockey game I thought I was watching a sport. You learn something new everyday.

Well I just explained it. Cage Fighting/UFC/MMA whatever you want to call it, was too violent, and too brutal to be viewed as a sport, and at one time was being outlawed because of it. The only option they had to stay in business was to get sanctioning. There are still plenty of states where it is difficult to get sanctioning for MMA bouts because it is not recognized as widely as a sport, and because of the violent nature of it. That's not my opinion, that's the way it is.

The whole sport has evolved. I absolutely agree that in it's early stages, mma was nothing more than human cockfighting. There was little to no skill involved and a majority of the fighters had no previous training or experience.

At least you admit that much. It is still very much that way. Maybe not at the heights of the sport, but in the Amateurs specifically, and smaller MMA promotions, it is still very much that way. Here inIowa MMA is huge, we are a very big MMA state and there is a lot of amateur MMA fights going on all the time, as well as smaller promotions(most notably MCC). I have been to tons of these fights, and let me assure you, what they are doing is not what you are watching on UFC, WEC, or Strikeforce. On the Professional level the sport has made improvements and they have added some rules that make it a little less dangerous than it was, but it is still the same sport with the same objectives.

We are talking 25 years ago mind you.Even at the first UFC, you looked at the guys that advanced in the competition and even they looked nearly clueless. So at that point in time, I will agree that it was a primitive and obtuse competition consisting of nothing more than inflicting damage to another human being.

You just said the same thing a second ago, why are you repeating yourself and building this word fort? That was all unnecessary. Too bad if you were trying to make a point, you're taking too much time to say the same thing, kind of what you and your cronies accused me of.

This is where you go and look up the definition of evolution. The sport is imeasurably different from it's earliest stages, as was boxing.

You already said that too. So far you could have left out half of this post. You want to nit pick me I will nit pick you. I do have a background in journalism, I can edit this to death all day.

Do you think there were Fraziers in boxings infancy? Was there a Roy Jones Jr. early in the century? I'll bet all three of my testicles there were no such fighters.

Ooooooh your going to be pissed because you just lost your balls on that bet. If you go back to the early days of Boxing there most certainly were greats like Joe Frazier and Roy Jones. I don't need to go into great detail about it, I will just give you a list of fighters from before Fraziers time that were all greats dating from the early 1900's to the 60's. Before that in ancient times as well the Boxers were highly celebrated warriors and received great respect and admiration from everyone. Even the Emperor of Rome at one time Boxed it was so popular.


Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson(Bare Knuckle Champion), Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharky, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, James Braddock, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Ingemar Johansson, Cassius Clay.

That's just the heavyweights, I didn't even touch another division. These may not be names to you, but every one of those guys are legends of the prize ring, and were all recognized as World Champion in a time when there was only 1 world champion.

Every single sport evolves. All of them. Records are broken, legacies are tested and legends are dethroned. It's in the nature of the game.

While that is true, MMA hasn't seen a great evolution yet. Sure, some lines have been drawn, they've found more of an identity, and there is a more clear cut idea of what the sport actually is. But, there simply hasn't been enough time in the sports existence to really evolve much past where it was in it's beginnings. Once again, not my personal opinion, a consequence of time.

You can look at boxers from the first quarter of the century and see how primitive and devolved the sport was. Every competition is born somewhere from something.

This is only true in some small aspects. The training was more primitive and devolved back then, but the sport was still every bit as technical as it is today. You just have to look outside of the heavyweight division which garnered most of the attention at the time if you want to see some especially good technical Boxing matches.. The heavyweights were still very technical too, there just wasn't as great a concern for safety then on the part of the promoters or the fighters for that matter.

Boxings origins go all the way back to ancient times. The rules that stand relatively unchanged today were established in 1867. The original rules were thatafter a knockdown you had 30 seconds to get back up under your own will, and that was the end of a round. There were no limits on how many rounds you went so sometimes you had fights go 50 or 60 rounds and that's not an exaggeration. After they figured out that wasn't going to work, it was taken down to 15 rounds 3:00 minute rounds, and then again down to 12 rounds in the 1980's. Other than that, obviously they changed the knockdown rules. Other than that the sport has remained largely the same in the ring. Now you have more “high tech” training, but that is about it as far as the changes in Boxing go. It is steeped in tradition.

What pains me the most is people that try and argue the differences between mma and boxing when they have far more in common. When you break it down, the ultimate goal of both sports is to either render your opponent unconscious or make them physically or verbally submit.

Yes, but what has separated them from the start is the method in which people go about reaching that similar goal, and what tactics are and are not acceptable in doing so.

Even though submissions can cause joint and ligiment damage, most consider it less dangerous than being knocked unconscience. Yet they don't have that option in boxing do they? Last time I checked, the only option you have is knocking your opponent out, or riding points until the fight is over and you take a decision.

Who are the “Most” you are referring to? Would that happen to be maybe you or your circle of acquaintances? Who are these people who find it less dangerous? Let me guess, your making a general statement right? Well I did that too but when I did it I was stating opinion as fact, apparently when you do it it's the fucking gospel truth. Hypocrisy? Maybe.

Another thing, why would Boxing have submissions? If there were it wouldn't be Boxing. You refer to submissions as a safer alternative to knockouts and state that even so, Boxing does not have them. Well, the obvious speaks for itself there now doesn't it? You can still “Submit” in Boxing, it's not like once your in there there's no way out but winning or being ko'd. You can beat a man until he quits, quitting is highly frowned upon though. Like I said, higher expectations.

Going the distance isn't riding points either. Part of the idea of Boxing is to slowly break down an opponent to set up for a knockout, not set up a quick knockout to break down your opponent. How many fights in MMA go the distance? Are those guys riding out points too like you're saying Boxers do?

I may not be a rocket scientist, but I'd consider a sport where your only option is to knock an opponent unconscience far more brutal than one where you can win by other means. Still you claim that mma is inhumane and a devolutionary step in the wrong direction.

That's your opinion again right? And aren't you the one now making up hypothetical situations and presenting them as facts? Last I checked “knocking a man unconscious” isn't your only option in Boxing, and furthermore it's rare that anyone is actually knocked unconscious. The definition of a knockout is when a man is knocked down and can not answer a 10 count, that doesn't mean their catching Z's on the canvas. There is also the obvious option of trying not to just score a knockout of some kind as quickly and as violently as possible, but actually Boxing your opponent to a decision if you can last that long with out being ko'd yourself, or having the fight stopped on you for any reason,Those are other things that can happen. I'm not making up hypothetical scenarios here, these thing actually happen.

How all of that is more violent than MMA doesn't seem to make sense. How is it more violent to keep it to just fists, than to allow people to pummel each other on the ground, knee each other in the face or body, elbow people in the face or body, kick people in the head, body or legs, or put someone in a submission which you say has a tendency to cause joint and ligament damage? The answer is that it's not more “Violent” however as the death tolls show, it is much harder to endure, which would have to mean it is a lot tougher to Box than to fight MMA. Those death tolls show us that fists are enough, and fatal on their own. Allowing more compromising tactics would then be unnecessary, and devolutionary as it reverts to unnecessary tactics already show to be so, by the damages shown caused by fighting with fists alone.

For example: we all know that legs are stronger than arms and as a result you can kick a person harder than you can punch them right? Well, we already know that by taking successive punches you can knock a man unconscious and a variety of other problems can arise immediately and down the road. Going off of that, than if you kick people that would cause more damage, and people already die from taking too many punches. So how many kicks than do you suppose it takes to do the same or worse? Rather than find out, logic and reason tell us that kicking people is unnecessary in fighting. Now if we say that suddenly it's ok to use kicks after it's been unanimously decided for a long period of time that it's not, how do you defend that as not being a step backwards? By calling it technique? Good Job.

Excuse me while I blow my runny nose, I'm very allergic to bullshit. Face it, the ultimate goal of both is the same.

Maybe the ultimate goal of winning sure, outside of that I wouldn't say so. You assume that there is an ultimate goal in either which is another opinion not a fact. The difference as already mentioned before is the way that each goes about reaching the obvious goal of winning period.

When you say that knees are too brutal and wrong as opposed to punching somebody in the face, thats like saying lethal injection is a less damaging form of capital punishment.

More and more opinion, nothing being proven.

The ultimate end is the same. Don't be so damn biased.

No the ultimate end is not the same. Knees and kicks generate a lot more pressure per square inch which equates to more damaging shots. The outcome is that you have a higher likely hood of causing someone unnecessary damage. The same goes for elbows, they are more damaging as well because of how much more solid that area is than your fist. At the end of the day neither is necessary. That's not being biased it's being concerned for the safety of people who want to fight.

There's something I need to understand. Somebody that trains for years, learning the best way to punch somebody in the face takes tremendous skill.

Yes it does, in fact you have to already be a great athlete to even survive the training.

Somebody that trains for years to do the same thing but also adds kicks, submission and wrestling to their overall game however, they are unskilled roosters in what your calling a human cockfight.

The problem with what you're saying though is that your once again making a false assumption. Your assuming that MMA fighters train for Boxing as much as boxers do, and become as good at Boxing while training for MMA, as a boxer does training specifically for Boxing. If that were so than an MMA fighter could beat a boxer in a Boxing match any time, but we've already agreed and established that was the least likely of outcomes, so that can't be.

These two do not train to do the same thing, not at all. In Boxing you train your hands to be good enough weapons that you don't need to add kicks, submissions, wrestling, elbows, mounts, or anything else. Would it not be fair to say that is a lot tougher to do than to have all those other options at your disposal? Is it not harder to be a master of one thing, than to be mediocre at a few things. That's like saying you get more education from taking 4 classes and not finishing them, than by taking one class and completely learning it.

So lets look at this whole thing, you have a bunch of guys who are just learning small aspects of a multitude of fighting styles but not mastering anything good enough to be able to solely rely on it, putting them in cages, encouraging them to fight, and putting options at their disposal to win that are potentially more harmful than taking a simple punch would have been putting them in unnecessary risk ? Sounds real technical to me.

That must be cool, knowing multiple pro boxers AND mixed martial artists and their respective training regiments. You would think that as someone who doesn't respect or even know anything about mma wouldn't have friends in that business.

I never said I know multiple pro boxers and mixed martial artists, but I do know the training regiments that both boxers and mixed martial artists use. I never said I had friends in the business either, and you once again assume I don't know anything about MMA. The fact that I know MMA so well is one of the bigger reasons Im so positive that I am correct in the issue

Fighters in mma train for years, in some cases a majority of their lives.

So do runners, football players, baseball players, basketball players, hockey players, etc... That doesn't make MMA better or more special than Boxing. Besides that, you can't actually say that MMA fighters train for years or the majority of their lives. Sure some of the best in MMA have been training for years and so on, but the typical MMA fighter is 1. not a pro, 2. hasn't been into for that long, and 3. isn't on the level of most typical boxers physically, mentally, or otherwise. Even a lot of the pros haven't been doing it for a long time because go through them so quickly, and aren't on the level of most pro boxers physically, mentally, or otherwise. This is because of the training methods of MMA that are all over the board.

They work just as hard as any boxer. Call me crazy, but I would think that two people who train just as hard and long should earn an equal amount of respect.

No, they don't work just as hard as any boxer, want proof? If they did than they would be as well conditioned as boxers and you wouldn't see these guys sucking wind like turbine engines out of their mouths withing 2 minutes of a fight on almost all occasions. It has already been established that Boxers have more stamina and better conditioning across the board anyways. It is because of the training that the two utilize.

Boxing has a much greater emphasis on endurance and stamina in it's training and can because it is not distracted with trying to learn a variation of 3 or 4 Martial Arts combined. Instead you are learning all you need to know to defend yourself against any attack, conditioning your body to not only withstand punishment but to be able to deliver it for an extended amount of time, and preparing yourself mentally to outsmart your opponent, and keep yourself in the right frame of mind.

Call me crazy again, but you would think somebody who wants to great in all areas of combat would be respected.

Well, you can respect the idea all you want, but that doesn't mean you have to respect a sport that goes about trying to but hasn't, and says they have basically by trying to say it is the next evolution of fighting. When the athletes are in better shape and show greater skills I'll believe it. And by the way that's what you think again, not what is.

I'm not a great basketball player, but I sure can shoot a nice free throw. If only there was a sport where you didn't play basketball, just took free throw shots.

Thank you for that anecdote, it made no sense whatsoever. I did get what you were trying to do there though.

Im a boxing fan. I really am and I have been for years, longer even then I've been an mma fan. I remember watching Douglas upset Iron Mike, I remember watching one of the most talented athletes in the world in Roy Jones Jr. defeat Bernard Hopkins. I know the sweet science of boxing, but I'm not biased.

Good for you, your not biased, thanks for the brief insight to your life, now make a relevant point.

The reason boxing isn't what is was is, more than anything else, because of the shady promoters. You have countless titles with more and more being created all the time. UFC has far less titles, yet you claim they need more weight classes to seem like a real sport? Don't know about you, but I'd rather be THE champion of my weightclass then one out of 20 champions in my weightclass.

Firstly I never said that UFC needed more weight classes, if you assumed that's what I was inferring that is your fuck up again, not mine. I said that they can't even get the weight classes right, and that is true. If you look at the weight classes in Boxing and UFC, the UFC has raised the weights in their weight classes. For example: A middleweight in Boxing is no more than 160, in UFC it's 185 and in Pride it was 205, why? That makes no sense. It's either to try and front that their guys are bigger and badder somehow, or they just did it to try and be that much different which makes no sense either.

Boxings history business wise has nothing to do with this argument. Sure, promoters in Boxing have made it harder to get bigger fights signed, but they've still been getting the big fights signed. The reason there are multiple titles is because there are multiple Boxing councils who oversee Boxing worldwide. There are only four that are recognized as the top titles: WBC, WBO, WBA, IBF. It's actually kind of cool because they are like separate companies that have champions and those champions compete all the time to decide who is the best. That is how you become THE champion. Like I said, higher standards in Boxing. You can be a champion but to be recognized as THE champion, you have to beat other champions first.

You talk about boxers having a larger win to loss ratio.

I made the point for different reasons than you are interpreting though. I made the point to show how much more experience and dedication it takes in Boxing before anyone considers you a real contender. Thanks for pointing out though that across the board boxers do have a better win loss ratio too.

Let's be honest and inbiased here for a second, it's no secret to anybody that there's a ton of relatively big name boxers who have heavily padded their record by fighting cans.

Name them and prove it. I am not denying that boxers can pad their records that way, obviously they can. Your trying to say though that a ton of the big name boxers only have their records because that is basically all they have done, which you can't prove and don't really know. Yet another assumption.

The managers have so much authority in the sport, more than any other. There could be extremely talented fighters who won't fight anybody on their level for 15 fights because of promoters and greedy managers padding their records.

Hey, there's that “hypothetical situation” thing popping up again. I thought only I did that because I don't know anything about what I am saying and I only give opinion as fact? Looks like I could learn from you on this. Sure, that “could” happen, and probably has, but name me anyone you know that has and I bet you can't. You could accuse someone of that, but that isn't going to work, you have to prove it.

In mma, you get a couple fights before you get a bigger name. Sometimes it's only a few, sometimes it's more.

Oh so what your saying is that after only a few fights they throw you in with a bigger name? And how does that have any relevance? So people get pushed up faster in MMA, big deal. All that means is that they are more willing to make uneven matches and put someone at unnecessary risk to make a fight happen. That doesn't do them any justice in this argument.

The champions of boxing have far fewer legitimate contenders than mma champions.

Prove it. Wladimir Klitschko has held a major world title since 2005 and hasn't lost since 2004 with 12 wins in a row 9 by KO, every one of them were legitimate contenders and the best available fights.

Common sense would tell you that it's harder for a champion with 4 contenders to stay on top then a champion with only 2 contenders.

That all depends on the quality of the contenders. If the 2 are better than the 4 than what does that tell you?

Wait what's that you say? Boxers are just superior atheletes and would destroy any mma fighter in boxing match? Sure and genital warts itch.

This makes no sense, you make some coy statements like you're about to prove some point and then agree with my own, and go on rambling about something you think makes a difference in your argument. Here's the proof.

A near majority of mma fighters would lose to boxers in boxing match.

Agreed, ok. What now?

That's works both ways though, as a majority of boxers would badly lose to an mma fighter in a cage.

Opinion not fact. Especially the “badly” part. How do you plan to prove that? So far you haven't in any way? Let's hope you last bits are good then huh?

Good boxing is a tremendous skill to have in mma. Yet, it's not the most important nor succesful.

Right, because it's MMA not Boxing. What does that have to do with anything?

Wrestling is THE best base to have in mixed martial arts.

Might be a good place to start by still...opinion, moving on.....

There has been countless fights where great boxers were taken down and will and either submitted or knocked out.

What GREAT boxers are you referring to? Last I knew there haven't been any great boxers jump to MMA until just now with James Toney, and he's a washed up great so where are you getting you're info? You mean there were people who made the transition that were “supposed” to be good boxers, but still got their asses kicked. That makes sense because if they were a great boxer they would have just ruined their career by going to MMA for smaller purses, more brutal rules, and the opportunity to put themselves at a disadvantage, right.

No, pro boxers wouldn't do any better in an mma match with a good wrestler. Maybe if those said boxers were former wrestlers. Wait no they aren't because they never trained in anything else. If only time travel were possible.

Theory and opinion again.

Boxing isn't what it was. The sport has been oversaturated with greedy managers and fishy promoters.

Prove it. Other than Don King name me a real big “Fishy, Greedy” promoter you know of? The biggest in the sport are Cedric Cushner, Bob Arum, Lou DiBella, Murad Mohammad, Gary Shaw, and the whole “Golden Boy Promotions” company and none of them have bad reps. Don King is the only real big fucked up promoter in Boxing. Now at one time waaaay back in the day when The Mafia was influencing and controlling Boxing you had some of that, but that was over 40 years ago now.

There remain so few dream fights now.

Be patient, something will come along. It always does.

I honestly wish that things weren't the way they are.

Likewise to some degree.

The wounds of professional boxing are self-inflicted.

The greatest sign of intelligence you have given thus far.

Nobody stood up and said enough is enough. Individual prosperity took top priority and nobody looked back.

This has some truth to it too. Not so much the case now days though. Now we are paying for some of it a little bit.

I still love the sport, and I can't imaging that changing. I know when things are bad however. I know when things are in the shitter.

Take a better look at Boxing right now and you will see there is still plenty of great fights to be had.

Mixed martial arts is a different beast, yet ultimately similar. Athletes competing at their personal highest level. Training their whole lives to be the best at what they do, to be at the top of their game. Brothers from another mother maybe, but their origins start at the same nutsack.

While that all may be true nowhere in here have you proven how MMA is any better than Boxing, or why an MMA fighter would beat a boxer. I have given substantial argument to prove my side of the story and I maintain my stance on the issue. Which part is the truth is up to the reader to decide for themselves.

 

[The Roid Rage]

First and foremost, MMA is a sport for many reasons. The one that matters the most however is the fact that it's recognized by an athletic commision. Above all else, the fact that it is recognized by the people who's opinions matter the most should be enough to stop that fucking argument right there.

I already covered this, but I will go back over it for you since you missed it. My point was that just because MMA has been regulated by higher authorities does not mean it is a real sport. Proof positive is professional wrestling which is governed and regulated by the same athletic commissions as Boxing and MMA. It was too brutal to be sanctioned by a commission at one point, so now they are more organized and there are rules, standards, and practices they must follow that they never did before. That still doesn't make it a sport, if the case were any different than we could say all day that professional wrestling is a real sport too because they are recognized by a sanctioning body.

So what your going to say is that even though it's recognized as a sport...it's not a sport? Well fuck every time I watch a hockey game I thought I was watching a sport. You learn something new everyday.

Well I just explained it. Cage Fighting/UFC/MMA whatever you want to call it, was too violent, and too brutal to be viewed as a sport, and at one time was being outlawed because of it. The only option they had to stay in business was to get sanctioning. There are still plenty of states where it is difficult to get sanctioning for MMA bouts because it is not recognized as widely as a sport, and because of the violent nature of it. That's not my opinion, that's the way it is.

The whole sport has evolved. I absolutely agree that in it's early stages, mma was nothing more than human cockfighting. There was little to no skill involved and a majority of the fighters had no previous training or experience.

At least you admit that much. It is still very much that way. Maybe not at the heights of the sport, but in the Amateurs specifically, and smaller MMA promotions, it is still very much that way. Here inIowa MMA is huge, we are a very big MMA state and there is a lot of amateur MMA fights going on all the time, as well as smaller promotions(most notably MCC). I have been to tons of these fights, and let me assure you, what they are doing is not what you are watching on UFC, WEC, or Strikeforce. On the Professional level the sport has made improvements and they have added some rules that make it a little less dangerous than it was, but it is still the same sport with the same objectives.

We are talking 25 years ago mind you.Even at the first UFC, you looked at the guys that advanced in the competition and even they looked nearly clueless. So at that point in time, I will agree that it was a primitive and obtuse competition consisting of nothing more than inflicting damage to another human being.

You just said the same thing a second ago, why are you repeating yourself and building this word fort? That was all unnecessary. Too bad if you were trying to make a point, you're taking too much time to say the same thing, kind of what you and your cronies accused me of.

This is where you go and look up the definition of evolution. The sport is imeasurably different from it's earliest stages, as was boxing.

You already said that too. So far you could have left out half of this post. You want to nit pick me I will nit pick you. I do have a background in journalism, I can edit this to death all day.

Do you think there were Fraziers in boxings infancy? Was there a Roy Jones Jr. early in the century? I'll bet all three of my testicles there were no such fighters.

Ooooooh your going to be pissed because you just lost your balls on that bet. If you go back to the early days of Boxing there most certainly were greats like Joe Frazier and Roy Jones. I don't need to go into great detail about it, I will just give you a list of fighters from before Fraziers time that were all greats dating from the early 1900's to the 60's. Before that in ancient times as well the Boxers were highly celebrated warriors and received great respect and admiration from everyone. Even the Emperor of Rome at one time Boxed it was so popular.


Jim Jeffries and Jack Johnson(Bare Knuckle Champion), Jess Willard, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, Max Schmeling, Jack Sharky, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, James Braddock, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Joe Walcott, Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Ingemar Johansson, Cassius Clay.

That's just the heavyweights, I didn't even touch another division. These may not be names to you, but every one of those guys are legends of the prize ring, and were all recognized as World Champion in a time when there was only 1 world champion.

Every single sport evolves. All of them. Records are broken, legacies are tested and legends are dethroned. It's in the nature of the game.

While that is true, MMA hasn't seen a great evolution yet. Sure, some lines have been drawn, they've found more of an identity, and there is a more clear cut idea of what the sport actually is. But, there simply hasn't been enough time in the sports existence to really evolve much past where it was in it's beginnings. Once again, not my personal opinion, a consequence of time.

You can look at boxers from the first quarter of the century and see how primitive and devolved the sport was. Every competition is born somewhere from something.

This is only true in some small aspects. The training was more primitive and devolved back then, but the sport was still every bit as technical as it is today. You just have to look outside of the heavyweight division which garnered most of the attention at the time if you want to see some especially good technical Boxing matches.. The heavyweights were still very technical too, there just wasn't as great a concern for safety then on the part of the promoters or the fighters for that matter.

Boxings origins go all the way back to ancient times. The rules that stand relatively unchanged today were established in 1867. The original rules were thatafter a knockdown you had 30 seconds to get back up under your own will, and that was the end of a round. There were no limits on how many rounds you went so sometimes you had fights go 50 or 60 rounds and that's not an exaggeration. After they figured out that wasn't going to work, it was taken down to 15 rounds 3:00 minute rounds, and then again down to 12 rounds in the 1980's. Other than that, obviously they changed the knockdown rules. Other than that the sport has remained largely the same in the ring. Now you have more “high tech” training, but that is about it as far as the changes in Boxing go. It is steeped in tradition.

What pains me the most is people that try and argue the differences between mma and boxing when they have far more in common. When you break it down, the ultimate goal of both sports is to either render your opponent unconscious or make them physically or verbally submit.

Yes, but what has separated them from the start is the method in which people go about reaching that similar goal, and what tactics are and are not acceptable in doing so.

Even though submissions can cause joint and ligiment damage, most consider it less dangerous than being knocked unconscience. Yet they don't have that option in boxing do they? Last time I checked, the only option you have is knocking your opponent out, or riding points until the fight is over and you take a decision.

Who are the “Most” you are referring to? Would that happen to be maybe you or your circle of acquaintances? Who are these people who find it less dangerous? Let me guess, your making a general statement right? Well I did that too but when I did it I was stating opinion as fact, apparently when you do it it's the fucking gospel truth. Hypocrisy? Maybe.

Another thing, why would Boxing have submissions? If there were it wouldn't be Boxing. You refer to submissions as a safer alternative to knockouts and state that even so, Boxing does not have them. Well, the obvious speaks for itself there now doesn't it? You can still “Submit” in Boxing, it's not like once your in there there's no way out but winning or being ko'd. You can beat a man until he quits, quitting is highly frowned upon though. Like I said, higher expectations.

Going the distance isn't riding points either. Part of the idea of Boxing is to slowly break down an opponent to set up for a knockout, not set up a quick knockout to break down your opponent. How many fights in MMA go the distance? Are those guys riding out points too like you're saying Boxers do?

I may not be a rocket scientist, but I'd consider a sport where your only option is to knock an opponent unconscience far more brutal than one where you can win by other means. Still you claim that mma is inhumane and a devolutionary step in the wrong direction.

That's your opinion again right? And aren't you the one now making up hypothetical situations and presenting them as facts? Last I checked “knocking a man unconscious” isn't your only option in Boxing, and furthermore it's rare that anyone is actually knocked unconscious. The definition of a knockout is when a man is knocked down and can not answer a 10 count, that doesn't mean their catching Z's on the canvas. There is also the obvious option of trying not to just score a knockout of some kind as quickly and as violently as possible, but actually Boxing your opponent to a decision if you can last that long with out being ko'd yourself, or having the fight stopped on you for any reason,Those are other things that can happen. I'm not making up hypothetical scenarios here, these thing actually happen.

How all of that is more violent than MMA doesn't seem to make sense. How is it more violent to keep it to just fists, than to allow people to pummel each other on the ground, knee each other in the face or body, elbow people in the face or body, kick people in the head, body or legs, or put someone in a submission which you say has a tendency to cause joint and ligament damage? The answer is that it's not more “Violent” however as the death tolls show, it is much harder to endure, which would have to mean it is a lot tougher to Box than to fight MMA. Those death tolls show us that fists are enough, and fatal on their own. Allowing more compromising tactics would then be unnecessary, and devolutionary as it reverts to unnecessary tactics already show to be so, by the damages shown caused by fighting with fists alone.

For example: we all know that legs are stronger than arms and as a result you can kick a person harder than you can punch them right? Well, we already know that by taking successive punches you can knock a man unconscious and a variety of other problems can arise immediately and down the road. Going off of that, than if you kick people that would cause more damage, and people already die from taking too many punches. So how many kicks than do you suppose it takes to do the same or worse? Rather than find out, logic and reason tell us that kicking people is unnecessary in fighting. Now if we say that suddenly it's ok to use kicks after it's been unanimously decided for a long period of time that it's not, how do you defend that as not being a step backwards? By calling it technique? Good Job.

Excuse me while I blow my runny nose, I'm very allergic to bullshit. Face it, the ultimate goal of both is the same.

Maybe the ultimate goal of winning sure, outside of that I wouldn't say so. You assume that there is an ultimate goal in either which is another opinion not a fact. The difference as already mentioned before is the way that each goes about reaching the obvious goal of winning period.

When you say that knees are too brutal and wrong as opposed to punching somebody in the face, thats like saying lethal injection is a less damaging form of capital punishment.

More and more opinion, nothing being proven.

The ultimate end is the same. Don't be so damn biased.

No the ultimate end is not the same. Knees and kicks generate a lot more pressure per square inch which equates to more damaging shots. The outcome is that you have a higher likely hood of causing someone unnecessary damage. The same goes for elbows, they are more damaging as well because of how much more solid that area is than your fist. At the end of the day neither is necessary. That's not being biased it's being concerned for the safety of people who want to fight.

There's something I need to understand. Somebody that trains for years, learning the best way to punch somebody in the face takes tremendous skill.

Yes it does, in fact you have to already be a great athlete to even survive the training.

Somebody that trains for years to do the same thing but also adds kicks, submission and wrestling to their overall game however, they are unskilled roosters in what your calling a human cockfight.

The problem with what you're saying though is that your once again making a false assumption. Your assuming that MMA fighters train for Boxing as much as boxers do, and become as good at Boxing while training for MMA, as a boxer does training specifically for Boxing. If that were so than an MMA fighter could beat a boxer in a Boxing match any time, but we've already agreed and established that was the least likely of outcomes, so that can't be.

These two do not train to do the same thing, not at all. In Boxing you train your hands to be good enough weapons that you don't need to add kicks, submissions, wrestling, elbows, mounts, or anything else. Would it not be fair to say that is a lot tougher to do than to have all those other options at your disposal? Is it not harder to be a master of one thing, than to be mediocre at a few things. That's like saying you get more education from taking 4 classes and not finishing them, than by taking one class and completely learning it.

So lets look at this whole thing, you have a bunch of guys who are just learning small aspects of a multitude of fighting styles but not mastering anything good enough to be able to solely rely on it, putting them in cages, encouraging them to fight, and putting options at their disposal to win that are potentially more harmful than taking a simple punch would have been putting them in unnecessary risk ? Sounds real technical to me.

That must be cool, knowing multiple pro boxers AND mixed martial artists and their respective training regiments. You would think that as someone who doesn't respect or even know anything about mma wouldn't have friends in that business.

I never said I know multiple pro boxers and mixed martial artists, but I do know the training regiments that both boxers and mixed martial artists use. I never said I had friends in the business either, and you once again assume I don't know anything about MMA. The fact that I know MMA so well is one of the bigger reasons Im so positive that I am correct in the issue

Fighters in mma train for years, in some cases a majority of their lives.

So do runners, football players, baseball players, basketball players, hockey players, etc... That doesn't make MMA better or more special than Boxing. Besides that, you can't actually say that MMA fighters train for years or the majority of their lives. Sure some of the best in MMA have been training for years and so on, but the typical MMA fighter is 1. not a pro, 2. hasn't been into for that long, and 3. isn't on the level of most typical boxers physically, mentally, or otherwise. Even a lot of the pros haven't been doing it for a long time because go through them so quickly, and aren't on the level of most pro boxers physically, mentally, or otherwise. This is because of the training methods of MMA that are all over the board.

They work just as hard as any boxer. Call me crazy, but I would think that two people who train just as hard and long should earn an equal amount of respect.

No, they don't work just as hard as any boxer, want proof? If they did than they would be as well conditioned as boxers and you wouldn't see these guys sucking wind like turbine engines out of their mouths withing 2 minutes of a fight on almost all occasions. It has already been established that Boxers have more stamina and better conditioning across the board anyways. It is because of the training that the two utilize.

Boxing has a much greater emphasis on endurance and stamina in it's training and can because it is not distracted with trying to learn a variation of 3 or 4 Martial Arts combined. Instead you are learning all you need to know to defend yourself against any attack, conditioning your body to not only withstand punishment but to be able to deliver it for an extended amount of time, and preparing yourself mentally to outsmart your opponent, and keep yourself in the right frame of mind.

Call me crazy again, but you would think somebody who wants to great in all areas of combat would be respected.

Well, you can respect the idea all you want, but that doesn't mean you have to respect a sport that goes about trying to but hasn't, and says they have basically by trying to say it is the next evolution of fighting. When the athletes are in better shape and show greater skills I'll believe it. And by the way that's what you think again, not what is.

I'm not a great basketball player, but I sure can shoot a nice free throw. If only there was a sport where you didn't play basketball, just took free throw shots.

Thank you for that anecdote, it made no sense whatsoever. I did get what you were trying to do there though.

Im a boxing fan. I really am and I have been for years, longer even then I've been an mma fan. I remember watching Douglas upset Iron Mike, I remember watching one of the most talented athletes in the world in Roy Jones Jr. defeat Bernard Hopkins. I know the sweet science of boxing, but I'm not biased.

Good for you, your not biased, thanks for the brief insight to your life, now make a relevant point.

The reason boxing isn't what is was is, more than anything else, because of the shady promoters. You have countless titles with more and more being created all the time. UFC has far less titles, yet you claim they need more weight classes to seem like a real sport? Don't know about you, but I'd rather be THE champion of my weightclass then one out of 20 champions in my weightclass.

Firstly I never said that UFC needed more weight classes, if you assumed that's what I was inferring that is your fuck up again, not mine. I said that they can't even get the weight classes right, and that is true. If you look at the weight classes in Boxing and UFC, the UFC has raised the weights in their weight classes. For example: A middleweight in Boxing is no more than 160, in UFC it's 185 and in Pride it was 205, why? That makes no sense. It's either to try and front that their guys are bigger and badder somehow, or they just did it to try and be that much different which makes no sense either.

Boxings history business wise has nothing to do with this argument. Sure, promoters in Boxing have made it harder to get bigger fights signed, but they've still been getting the big fights signed. The reason there are multiple titles is because there are multiple Boxing councils who oversee Boxing worldwide. There are only four that are recognized as the top titles: WBC, WBO, WBA, IBF. It's actually kind of cool because they are like separate companies that have champions and those champions compete all the time to decide who is the best. That is how you become THE champion. Like I said, higher standards in Boxing. You can be a champion but to be recognized as THE champion, you have to beat other champions first.

You talk about boxers having a larger win to loss ratio.

I made the point for different reasons than you are interpreting though. I made the point to show how much more experience and dedication it takes in Boxing before anyone considers you a real contender. Thanks for pointing out though that across the board boxers do have a better win loss ratio too.

Let's be honest and inbiased here for a second, it's no secret to anybody that there's a ton of relatively big name boxers who have heavily padded their record by fighting cans.

Name them and prove it. I am not denying that boxers can pad their records that way, obviously they can. Your trying to say though that a ton of the big name boxers only have their records because that is basically all they have done, which you can't prove and don't really know. Yet another assumption.

The managers have so much authority in the sport, more than any other. There could be extremely talented fighters who won't fight anybody on their level for 15 fights because of promoters and greedy managers padding their records.

Hey, there's that “hypothetical situation” thing popping up again. I thought only I did that because I don't know anything about what I am saying and I only give opinion as fact? Looks like I could learn from you on this. Sure, that “could” happen, and probably has, but name me anyone you know that has and I bet you can't. You could accuse someone of that, but that isn't going to work, you have to prove it.

In mma, you get a couple fights before you get a bigger name. Sometimes it's only a few, sometimes it's more.

Oh so what your saying is that after only a few fights they throw you in with a bigger name? And how does that have any relevance? So people get pushed up faster in MMA, big deal. All that means is that they are more willing to make uneven matches and put someone at unnecessary risk to make a fight happen. That doesn't do them any justice in this argument.

The champions of boxing have far fewer legitimate contenders than mma champions.

Prove it. Wladimir Klitschko has held a major world title since 2005 and hasn't lost since 2004 with 12 wins in a row 9 by KO, every one of them were legitimate contenders and the best available fights.

Common sense would tell you that it's harder for a champion with 4 contenders to stay on top then a champion with only 2 contenders.

That all depends on the quality of the contenders. If the 2 are better than the 4 than what does that tell you?

Wait what's that you say? Boxers are just superior atheletes and would destroy any mma fighter in boxing match? Sure and genital warts itch.

This makes no sense, you make some coy statements like you're about to prove some point and then agree with my own, and go on rambling about something you think makes a difference in your argument. Here's the proof.

A near majority of mma fighters would lose to boxers in boxing match.

Agreed, ok. What now?

That's works both ways though, as a majority of boxers would badly lose to an mma fighter in a cage.

Opinion not fact. Especially the “badly” part. How do you plan to prove that? So far you haven't in any way? Let's hope you last bits are good then huh?

Good boxing is a tremendous skill to have in mma. Yet, it's not the most important nor succesful.

Right, because it's MMA not Boxing. What does that have to do with anything?

Wrestling is THE best base to have in mixed martial arts.

Might be a good place to start by still...opinion, moving on.....

There has been countless fights where great boxers were taken down and will and either submitted or knocked out.

What GREAT boxers are you referring to? Last I knew there haven't been any great boxers jump to MMA until just now with James Toney, and he's a washed up great so where are you getting you're info? You mean there were people who made the transition that were “supposed” to be good boxers, but still got their asses kicked. That makes sense because if they were a great boxer they would have just ruined their career by going to MMA for smaller purses, more brutal rules, and the opportunity to put themselves at a disadvantage, right.

No, pro boxers wouldn't do any better in an mma match with a good wrestler. Maybe if those said boxers were former wrestlers. Wait no they aren't because they never trained in anything else. If only time travel were possible.

Theory and opinion again.

Boxing isn't what it was. The sport has been oversaturated with greedy managers and fishy promoters.

Prove it. Other than Don King name me a real big “Fishy, Greedy” promoter you know of? The biggest in the sport are Cedric Cushner, Bob Arum, Lou DiBella, Murad Mohammad, Gary Shaw, and the whole “Golden Boy Promotions” company and none of them have bad reps. Don King is the only real big fucked up promoter in Boxing. Now at one time waaaay back in the day when The Mafia was influencing and controlling Boxing you had some of that, but that was over 40 years ago now.

There remain so few dream fights now.

Be patient, something will come along. It always does.

I honestly wish that things weren't the way they are.

Likewise to some degree.

The wounds of professional boxing are self-inflicted.

The greatest sign of intelligence you have given thus far.

Nobody stood up and said enough is enough. Individual prosperity took top priority and nobody looked back.

This has some truth to it too. Not so much the case now days though. Now we are paying for some of it a little bit.

I still love the sport, and I can't imaging that changing. I know when things are bad however. I know when things are in the shitter.

Take a better look at Boxing right now and you will see there is still plenty of great fights to be had.

Mixed martial arts is a different beast, yet ultimately similar. Athletes competing at their personal highest level. Training their whole lives to be the best at what they do, to be at the top of their game. Brothers from another mother maybe, but their origins start at the same nutsack.

While that all may be true nowhere in here have you proven how MMA is any better than Boxing, or why an MMA fighter would beat a boxer. I have given substantial argument to prove my side of the story and I maintain my stance on the issue. Which part is the truth is up to the reader to decide for themselves.

 

[The Roid Rage]

Do you know anything about the history of boxing Game Rage? It was brutal and equally as deserving of being called "human cockfighting" as the early days of MMA.

At one time over 100 years ago and further into history. That says nothing about the sport today.

Reforms had to be gradually introduced to clean up boxing to make it a legitimate sporting event.

And so it is, has been, and continues to be. Your point?

I'm sorry but a world class grappler would be able to get any boxer who hasn't trained in proper take down defense to the mat. It wouldn't be difficult. Even if the boxer choose to run away the whole fight using his footwork, after eating enough legkicks, he would loose the spring in his step.

You like Armbar have made the mistake of assuming this is the truth but you can't be so certain. You even say it would be difficult, what makes you think it wouldn't go in favor of the boxer who can knock the MMA fighter out with much less effort than anything the MMA fighter can do? Who's to say the boxer would be eating leg kicks either? That's another one of those “Hypothetical Situations” I was so rudely branded as using and propping up as facts. Let's all play by the same rules now.

I don't understand your criticism of grappling. Grappling is as old as punching. It takes tremendous skill. It isn't cheap. Someone who is skilled will be able to defend themselves even when they are on bottom either by sweeping their opponent or submitting them.

I don't have so much a problem with grappling as I do with two assholes in an octagon doing next to nothing while the announcers make it sound like they've just unlocked the secrets of the universe while taking a break on the ground or the fence. It's the hype, it doesn't match up at all. They call any kind of movement some kind of skilled maneuver. Announcer: “ The fighters are on the canvas and as you can see (insert name) is really showing off his Jujitsu, that's the mark of a real experienced veteran” Meanwhile the guy is just trying to hold down any body part of their opponent they can so they don't have to do anything else for a minute, but they act like something spectacular is going on.

You do realize that Boxing has grappling too don't you? It's called a clinch instead though because they are on their feet the whole time. Those guys grapple with each other and clinching has a real purpose in Boxing, it's not two guys just hugging. Not only that, it is allowed but only to a certain degree. If the fighters keep clinching and don't fight the ref will make them. Fighting in the clinch is very technical and very difficult. It takes a pretty decently trained fighter to fight really good in the clinch, Lennox Lewis was very good at it for example.

You say it's cheap because it involves one person maneuvering themselves into a dominate position, but that really isn't different from boxers using their footwork to gain bettering position.

I didn't say it was cheap because it involves one person maneuvering themselves into a dominant position. I said it was cheap because it was someone pinning someone else on the ground and proceeding to pummel them in the face because that's the only way they could be dominant.

The argument "why don't boxers stand completely still and fight like men?" would be pretty much the same argument you're making.

If you weren't picking up what I'm putting down maybe.

It's a bad argument. Instead of prohibiting maneuvering into dominate positions we should just say let the fighters demonstrate their skills in defending and maneuvering into dominate positions of their own.

Who is talking about prohibiting anything? It's legal in MMA to take someone to the ground, sit on top of them and beat them in the face. That could happen to anyone no matter what their skills in MMA, and does. I just think that is a pretty weak ass way to try and prove your some kind of a fighter.

It takes a tremendous amount of skill to compete in mixed martial arts at a high level. Professional Boxer Ray Mercer has recently gone on record as saying MMA training was more difficult and more complex than boxing.

That's because Ray Mercer is old and out of shape. He hasn't been a relevant name in Boxing since the early 90's. Of course it was harder, he's been doing it in his 40's, a rather late time to try and get into the sport. Regardless, here is an interesting little piece of info I found about him that has a lot to do with this conversation.

On June 13, 2009, Mercer defeated former UFC Heavyweight Champion Tim Sylvia at Adrenaline III: Bragging Rights. He won the fight via knockout in 9 seconds, becoming the first man to ever defeat Sylvia by knockout.

That's an old washed up Boxer KO'ing one of the great former UFC Heavyweight champions of all time in 9 seconds. What would a better boxer, younger, in better shape do ?

 

[The Roid Rage]

No. You never made good arguments. You argument is basically "MMA sucks because I say it sucks".

Those are your thoughts, and they make no difference in this argument.

You say things like Jiu-Jitsu is luck and that anybody who fights with anything other than punches aren't really fighters. Those are ridiculous assertions based on nothing more than a strongly biased person's opinion. At no point in this conversation did you make a good argument.

I said that Jujitsu relies more so on luck than Boxing, and that from what I have witnessed since MMA's inception was that it is mostly luck. You just have to be in the right place at the right time of the fight. It's not an assertion based on a bias, it's an observation based on witnessing it. When did you plan on making an argument at all by the way? All you are doing is trying to refute anything I have said simply out of spite and your own personal bias.

Stuff like this shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. It takes many years of hard work to develop the skills necessary to become a black belt in Brazillian Jui-Jitsu.

Really? B.J. Penn got his in about 3 years. It takes at least 10 years to get a black belt in TKD, and the only belt you get in Boxing that shows how good you are is a world title which takes as long as it does for you to go through the amateur ranks, on to pro, work your way from the bottom all the way to the top, and win a world title which most people don't do, which is obviously the greater accomplishment?

Submissions don't just happen. Taking someone down and moving from full guard to half guard to side mount to full mount in order to pull off an arm bar is very difficult when working against a skilled opponent.

Maybe against a skilled opponent but across the board most of these guys aren't that skilled. Either way some of that shit DOES just happen, and more frequently than you would like to admit.

All the different transitions to get into the spot where you can pull off the submission take work. It's not just instantaneous submission, you have to work to set them up just like you set up the knock out punch.

While I am sure the absolute best in the sport can do all of that, 95% of them can't and are touted as the greatest fighters in the world regardless.

 

[The Roid Rage]

No. See they are what if scenarios because your just throwing out there what you THINK would happen in that situation. I'm sorry, but that is a total hypothetical question.

Here it was, where you accused me of throwing out hypothetical scenarios of what I think would happen. I recall trying to explain instances where a boxer would be able to take advantage of his Boxing skills against an MMA fighter, but non of that was what I think would happen, more so than me explaining how those things could happen and why. You just don't like what is happening in those situations so you shoot them down.

We are in agreement that boxers has superior footwork than most general mma fighters. There are honestly only a handful of mma fighters who are good enough boxers to hang with the really good pros.

I'd love to see them try, and wouldn't mind knowing who you think those handful are. I may or may not agree on a few guys in UFC. This does however make my argument for me. You admitted that there are only a handful of these MMA fighters who are good enough to box with some of the decent pros. As I was saying, Boxing is superior to MMA, and the MMA guys aren't good enough to be boxers(Not all but most). By your own admission this is true.

On the opposite side of the coin, you have very few pro boxers that can hang and grapple with jujitsu guys.

That's not what they do and isn't apart of Boxing so why would they? Boxing is apart of MMA so if they are so great and on the same level as boxers they would be able to beat them at their own game.
However we know they would not 9 out of 10 times.

How many other cross over stars have there been in sports? Michael Jordan is arguably the greatest baskball player of all time, and yet he was a mediocre baseball player.

Matters not, although is a fair way of looking at either MMA fighters or Boxers crossing over I will admit.

What you are trying to say is that a world champion caliber wrestler like Brock Lesnar or Randy Couture couldn't take down somebody with no wrestling background or skill? That's absolutely ridiculous.

If they are a boxer with acceptional footwork than that is exactly what I am saying. I have seen it done with my own eyes I know I am not just high, this is not a far fetched idea. It is one skill countering another that is all. It's not as hard as you are making out to be in your minds, that was what I was trying to explain earlier, but you took that for arrogance of some kind or something of that nature.

Could a boxer potentially knock out an mma fighter as he's going for a tackdown? Absolutely, more than once even. Is it likely? I seriously doubt it when your dealing with wrestling champions like the gentlemen I mentioned.

Maybe it's not as likely when dealing with someone like a Lesnar, but the typical MMA fighter would be smoked.

I guarantee nine times out of ten, a good wrestler could take down a great boxer.

Maybe if he doesn't have arms. Do any of you realize the effectiveness of a decent jab, or sticking and moving, or good footwork? Those aren't just novelty items of Boxing. The jab alone could shut down a wrestler, and then it's “Man if only that wrestler didn't eat all those shots and knew how to Box.”

Man, if only that boxer had trained in some other form of combat, he wouldn't be so fucked on the ground.

That's assuming as you've done so much, that anything goes to the ground. Which neither of us know for sure would happen. I have been saying that I don't think the Boxer would go down or if he did, not as easily as you make it sound, and I think that is because they would be able to avoid the charging take downs, and any other ones from a clinch of sorts I think would be avoided by the boxer because of their ability to fight so well when tied up a bit, or in a small space.

Wait, I forgot only ''******'' have enough know how on the human anatomy to be able to make a grown man verbally submit to a submission.

If they were tougher, better trained, or more skilled than they wouldn't have to use a submission to win now would they. Obviously if a fighter can just knock a guy out, that is what they are going to do. So why then would you do otherwise? Because that option is no longer an option.

Only ''******'' fight with anything other then their hands. I've always thought a knee to the face was pretty macho, not the last minute effort of a beaten man.

It might be “Macho” but it's also pretty chicken shit, and can cause an unnecessary amount of damage. But FUCK IT right, it's MACHO!!! And everyone knows that's what MMA is all about, trying to be macho because these guys need to be able to do all that shit to win a fight. It can't be a fair fight, that might mean you lose when you really should and don't get laid by one of the ring girls tonight.

Remind me to call the president of the NBA and let him know that players can only shoot two pointers from now on, anything else is dirty and against the rules.

Yeah, that makes no sense. Completely different aspects of competition.

I can't seem to understand how you can talk so badly of something you clearly know nothing about.

Clearly you don't know shit about what I do or don't know. I am very well versed in MMA, Boxing, and TKD.

You've said absolutely ludacris things about some of the greatest mixed martial artists in the world having no talent.

I didn't say anything about the best mixed martial artists in the world, I was talking about the sport in general, and the majority of it' practitioners. Obviously some of the best are there for a reason, guys like GSP and Anderson Silva. I would still question the level of their competition since it is MMA, but those guys have proven to have what it takes to separate themselves from the majority of the MMA world.

Every single comment you have made has been litered with such biased observations it's mind blowing.

Well I am defending a certain side of an argument, that right there should let you know I would be biased to some degree. Besides, I only said anything to begin with because of the blind , idiotic, and frankly pathetic bias on the conversation for MMA. What goes around comes around..

When you act like that, you give up the right to be taken seriously.

No one takes you seriously anyways, so why not be glad someone bothered to talk to you. My personal opinions on the matter may not do me justice in my efforts, but the science of it I have tried to lay out for you is not just from biased observation. The scenarios I laid out were examples of the way things would happen if what I was saying was right, I wasn't saying that was exactly what would happen and by the way I am right. There is a difference.

You aren't an outside observer, your a bitter fan who can't accept the fact that something they love is in a state of ruin and it has top competition.

I'm not bitter at all, I see the sport in great shape. There are a bunch of great fights lined up for the rest of the year. Boxing is far from being “In a state of ruin” and thinking any differently shows how out of touch with Boxing you must be. I am glad there is a competitor to Boxing in MMA, I just don't care for it perosnally so much, and I believe that the boxers are the better fighters. If you don't like that, Tough Shit. I've said my peace.

 

[Mufasa]

It's ridiculous to say fighting on the ground is cheap. If you are skilled at takedown defense you can avoid the takedown so that you won't get taken down in the first place. If you are skilled on your back you can sweep or sub from your guard. The only fighter that would call the ground game cheap is the fighter that has no ground game.

I really wish a top level boxer would agree to fight a top mixed martial artist. They could even do it inside a ring to make it fair. Watching a few top level boxers being dominated into submission would kind of just end the debate right there. Until then neither side will concede.

 

[blah]

Just had to sign up quickly to reply on such an idiotic shit thread. I didn't read through all the crap but it is safe to say, you don't like MMA, big deal, get over it. Why post such a shit thread with no real logic, just biased opinions you share with zero facts and knowledge? MMA is a growing sport and it is still relatively new. Your biased opinions claiming there is no skill in MMA is unbelievably inaccurate.

To be honest, it takes more skill to do MMA than boxing, because you have to train in all the different arts. Boxing, wrestling, defending takedowns, transitioning on the ground, delivering damage, submission attempts, submission defense. In boxing you just stand and punch, with foot work.

You need to get your facts right before even mentioning MMA ever again.

 

[The Roid Rage]

And you need to pick your battles a little better before you get into them. Big fuck up on your end #1, you didn't even read everything which means you didn't even take the time to listen, which automatically tells me you suck at life.

#2 I have followed both sports my entire life and know more about them both than you can probably even imagine, I support everything I say from experience, and fact based knowledge. If you can't handle that, tough shit.

#3 Your Opinion that MMA is harder because of this or that is simply that, an opinion, so where's your facts asshole? I don't see any, just your personal logic on why MMA is tougher.

#4 You talk about me being bias but you won't even read what I've had to say to see what I'm trying to say due to your own bias, that's called being a hypocrite, so fuck you.

My commentaries on the two come from extensive learning and experience which you obviously have neither, I wouldn't say it if it wasn't based on true principles and science. If you don't like the fact that Boxing is superior to MMA, stop watching MMA and watch some boxing, learn about it, and once you do you'll know what I am talking about. Until then, there's no way for me to be able to convince you because you are dead set against accepting the truth of the matter.