Best Wrestler to Come Out of ECW (original)

[IrishCanadian25]

And as for RVD being overrated, please, name one other ECW original that was able to come out of ECW and move into another major promotion and have the shear amount of success that RVD had, RVD was the only ECW original to come to WWE and win the "big one", and he still remains the own original to get an entire DVD dedicated to his work in the ring, the only others that even come close to haveing success like RVD has had outside of ECW are Raven, Rhino, and the Dudleys, Raven won the NWA title in TNA back when hardley anyone knew what the fuck TNA was, Rhino won the same belt and held it for what? all of two weeks before Jarrett squashed him to win it back, so both their title reigns were all but meaningless, and the Dudleys have never been able to do anything outside of the tag division, RVD is by far the most succesful wrestler to come out of ECW, and far from overrated

Yes, folks, aside from writing the world's longest run-on sentence )) Justin has managed to inspire a new thread by yours truly. I think the boldfaced print above represents a tremendous misconception about the original ECW, and the deification of an over rated - though talented and run to watch - Rob Van Dam.

Remember, just because someone is called "over rated" does not mean they aren't "great" or even "good." But to call RVD the best ever to come out of ECW is dismissive of several far better talents.

Chris Jericho. Yep, he won "the big one" long before RVD did, and long before Jericho was WCW's "Lionheart" or WWE's "Ayatollah of Rock N Rollah," he was ECW's marginal TV Title contender. That being said, he put on some great matches with Pitbull and 2Cold Scorpio.

Rey Mysterio. Also won "the big one" before RVD did. And he did it at Wrestlemania. Before WCW got their hands on the luchadores, it was Paul Heyman who brought them in, and they routinely stole shows.

Eddie Guerrero. Another ECW Alumni, another man who won "the big one" before Van Dam, and a man who had considerably more success in not one, but two other major promotions after ECW. And while Van Dam is remembered as an entertaining talent, Eddie will be debated for ages as a borderline Hall Of Famer. Even though he's not.

Steve Austin. Are we forgetting this man? Ok, you'll probably argue that he wasn't an ECW original, rather, a WCW original who went to ECW before hitting ECW. But you can't deny, he made a mark on the land of Extreme, and had ridiculous success - not to mention, he was a major reason RVD got over in WWE to begin with.

I'd love to hear some rebuttals to this. And not just "good points, but..." I want anger. I want the ECW fans who fawn over RVD to come out with a sanguinity that hasn't been seen since 1999...

 

[Slyfox696]

The problem lies in the definition of "comes out of". Are just talking about anyone who worked for any period of time in ECW? Because that answer would be Steve Austin, no doubt. Or, are we talking about someone who gained notice in the wrestling world, through ECW. Then, that answer would be RVD.

Rey and Benoit were both promoted by WCW before ECW did. Benoit had made a major mark in Japan before ECW. The Guerrero name is well known in wrestling. Jericho's run in SMW was every bit as noticeable as his run in ECW, both of which take a backseat to the WCW when it comes to being noticed.

Just about the only person to ever truly make a name for himself through working in ECW is RVD.

 

[RVDgurl]

The problem lies in the definition of "comes out of". Are just talking about anyone who worked for any period of time in ECW? Because that answer would be Steve Austin, no doubt. Or, are we talking about someone who gained notice in the wrestling world, through ECW. Then, that answer would be RVD.

Rey and Benoit were both promoted by WCW before ECW did. Benoit had made a major mark in Japan before ECW. The Guerrero name is well known in wrestling. Jericho's run in SMW was every bit as noticeable as his run in ECW, both of which take a backseat to the WCW when it comes to being noticed.

Just about the only person to ever truly make a name for himself through working in ECW is RVD.

I now truly believe that the world is coming to and end....Slyfox and RVDgurl agree on a post....about ECW!!!

I think this question should be clarified a little bit more. If we are talking about guys who spend some time in ECW then Steve Austin is your man. He developed the Stone Cold character during his short time in ECW. Heyman gave him the mic and allowed him to say anything he wanted to. Hence, Stone Cold Steve Austin was born.

If we are talking about guys who were basically developed and "made" by ECW, then RVD would be your man. When ECW folded, the WWE was basically the only man left standing (WCW closed only a few months after ECW). Therefore, success in the wrestling business has to be measured by what a guy accomplished in the WWE. And quite honestly, RVD accomplished everything.

 

[NSL]

You forgot Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Jerry Lynn, Super Crazy, Too Cool Scorpio, Kid Kash, Juventud Guerrera, Tajiri, Stevie Richards, Lance Storm, The Blue Meanie, and Nunzio.

Ok, I'm kidding about the last two, except for the MeanieSault.

No one can take away Benoit or Malenko's in-ring ability. Both of them are great in-ring technicians, and innovated a lot of the wrestling that goes on today. Benoit reached a level of success outside of ECW, while Malenko was basically Jamie Noble with a push.

Super Crazy and Juventud Guerrera were big in the indies, and gained a lot of popularity based on their in-ring abilities. Guerrera won a few minor titles in the big companies, while Super Crazy basically became a jobber. His offense rarely, if ever, involved weapons, but he did need to use the arena to his advantage. Confining him to the ring was a problem.

Jerry Lynn is one of my all time favorites, and made his career by turning RVD and AJ Styles into wrestlers, not spot monkeys that use chairs. He even made Justin Credible look good. He could've done so much more in the bigger companies, but he felt it necessary to push younger talent.

Too Cool Scorpio was big in Japan, as well as indy shows. He could put on a hell of a match, and entertain any crowd. I don't recall him ever getting "extreme" in ECW, besides spending a lot of time outside of the ropes.

Kid Kash got a push in TNA, but they killed his career by turning him heel. Being a babyface is what worked for him, and gave him a name. He could've done more, but the fans wouldn't accept him as a heel.

Tajiri garnered some success in the WWE, but was at his biggest in ECW. The Buzzsaw Kick was a painful move, and the Tarantula was great to watch. His matches with Super Crazy are must-see for anyone that thinks ECW was all about barbwire and baseball bats.

Stevie Richards was never big outside of ECW. He wasn't even that big in ECW. But, he could wrestle, and used the Stevie Kick well. He'll forever be known as Raven's lacky, but he was a good in-ring performer that could make people laugh.

Lance Storm is the best example of a wrestler that made it big in ECW. He was huge, and got massive heel heat. He could do just about any move, and make it effective. His promos were a little lackluster, but that was part of the gimmick. He should've been bigger in WCW and WWE, but he was simply too boring on the mic.

 

[Slyfox696]

You forgot Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Jerry Lynn, Super Crazy, Too Cool Scorpio, Kid Kash, Juventud Guerrera, Tajiri, Stevie Richards, Lance Storm, The Blue Meanie, and Nunzio.

There's a difference between "forgetting" and "sucking".

With the exception of Benoit, all the rest of them suck. And, like I said, Benoit hardly made his name in the ECW, and even if you count him, then you have to count Austin, which overrules anyone.

 

[NSL]

There's a difference between "forgetting" and "sucking".

With the exception of Benoit, all the rest of them suck. And, like I said, Benoit hardly made his name in the ECW, and even if you count him, then you have to count Austin, which overrules anyone.

I'm not taking out Austin, or anyone else IC25 listed. I was just naming other wrestlers that came out of ECW, that were good. I wouldn't be able to pick a best, as I'm an impartial vote. I loved ECW, and Jerry Lynn has always been one of my favorites. That doesn't make him the best.

How can you say Dean Malenko sucks? Everyone loves the Crossface, and it's been beaten to death, that it's his move. The Terxas Cloverleaf is an under-rated finisher as well. He's a trainer for WWE for a reason.

Jerry Lynn was great in the ring. He never had the title runs or notoriety, because he was busy putting over younger talent. He could've easily beaten guys like RVD, but it was for the good of the company, and for the good of the business, to put them over.

Find me a bad, non-WWE, match of Too Cool Scorpio's. He could fly from anywhere, and wasn't bad at mat-wrestling. People associate him with sucking, because of Flash Funk.

Lance Storm was the most boring guy to watch, but that was because he was talented, and could out-wrestle almost anyone on the roster. Wrestling isn't always exciting to watch. That's why the so-called "spot monkeys" were always pushed ahead of guys like Lance Storm.

Kid Kash was a guy on the rise when he landed in TNA, but because of bad booking, his career stalled terribly. He was great in the ring, and the crowd loved him. He could've been a mid-card champ for any company.

As for the rest of them, they're all based on opinion. Some people don't like the styles of guys like Guerrera or Super Crazy. I do. They were fun to watch, and didn't fail to put on a good show whenever they were in the ring.




Until the Mexicools. Seriously,

 

[Slyfox696]

How can you say Dean Malenko sucks?

Easily. I watch his matches, note how he bores everyone, take into account the fact he has the charisma of an anvil, and it's easy enough to do.

Everyone loves the Crossface, and it's been beaten to death, that it's his move. The Terxas Cloverleaf is an under-rated finisher as well. He's a trainer for WWE for a reason.

So, because he has two moves, that makes him a good wrestler? I agree he was a trainer for a reason. Because he wasn't good enough to actually be successful in the ring.

Knowing moves and being a good wrestler are completely different.

Jerry Lynn was great in the ring. He never had the title runs or notoriety, because he was busy putting over younger talent. He could've easily beaten guys like RVD, but it was for the good of the company, and for the good of the business, to put them over.

Lynn may be the most overrated worker to ever come out of ECW.

Find me a bad, non-WWE, match of Too Cool Scorpio's. He could fly from anywhere, and wasn't bad at mat-wrestling. People associate him with sucking, because of Flash Funk.

How about the "ever-famous" match with Dean Douglas, where after the match, Dean throws down the title? Awful match.

Lance Storm was the most boring guy to watch, but that was because he was talented, and could out-wrestle almost anyone on the roster. Wrestling isn't always exciting to watch. That's why the so-called "spot monkeys" were always pushed ahead of guys like Lance Storm.

Wait. Did you just say Lance Storm was boring, so that is what makes him good? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Kid Kash was a guy on the rise when he landed in TNA, but because of bad booking, his career stalled terribly. He was great in the ring, and the crowd loved him. He could've been a mid-card champ for any company.

Bad booking? No, not even close. His career stalled for two reasons. 1) He sucked and 2) He had a terrible attitude.

 

[NSL]

Easily. I watch his matches, note how he bores everyone, take into account the fact he has the charisma of an anvil, and it's easy enough to do.

So, because he has two moves, that makes him a good wrestler? I agree he was a trainer for a reason. Because he wasn't good enough to actually be successful in the ring.

Knowing moves and being a good wrestler are completely different.



Lynn may be the most overrated worker to ever come out of ECW.

How about the "ever-famous" match with Dean Douglas, where after the match, Dean throws down the title? Awful match.

Wait. Did you just say Lance Storm was boring, so that is what makes him good? Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

Bad booking? No, not even close. His career stalled for two reasons. 1) He sucked and 2) He had a terrible attitude.

I'll quote Will: "This coming from a guy pushing a nipple-wearing tool"

Yes, I said Lance Storm was good, and that caused him to be boring. Same thing with a ton of other guys. We don't always get the best wrestlers on TV, and that's because they're not the most fun to watch.

Jeff Hardy. Average wrestler. Fun to watch. Entertaining. Perfect example.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'll quote Will: "This coming from a guy pushing a nipple-wearing tool"

Yes, I said Lance Storm was good, and that caused him to be boring. Same thing with a ton of other guys. We don't always get the best wrestlers on TV, and that's because they're not the most fun to watch.

Jeff Hardy. Average wrestler. Fun to watch. Entertaining. Perfect example.

Perhaps I should explain the concept of professional wrestling to you. Professional wrestling is "entertainment". This means that it is supposed to be entertaining to the people who watch it. Since the purpose is to be "entertaining", the people who are not "entertaining" are not good at wrestling.

Being able to apply a bunch of different moves and holds does not make you good. If you are not entertaining, then you are not good. Because if you are not entertaining, then no one wants to watch you. And if no one wants to watch you, then you cannot be good.

 

[NSL]

Perhaps I should explain the concept of professional wrestling to you. Professional wrestling is "entertainment". This means that it is supposed to be entertaining to the people who watch it. Since the purpose is to be "entertaining", the people who are not "entertaining" are not good at wrestling.

Being able to apply a bunch of different moves and holds does not make you good. If you are not entertaining, then you are not good. Because if you are not entertaining, then no one wants to watch you. And if no one wants to watch you, then you cannot be good.

A wrestling match consists of physical engagement between two people in which each wrestler strives to get an advantage over, or control of, the opponent. Physical techniques used, include clinching, holding, locking, application of leverage and takedowns. Today there are a wide range of styles with varying rules.

Particular wrestling styles, have particular rules. Also, one can distinguish between traditional and non-traditonal styles of wrestling, and wrestling techniques found in military hand-to-hand combat and self-defence systems

I don't see entertainment anywhere in that definition. Sports entertainment is what you're thinking of. That doesn't have anything to do with wrestling.

Why do you think Flair sucks? He was always entertaining and he was good in the ring. Hart was good in the ring, but was hardly entertaining.

You confuse me Sly. I think you're turning in to Vince Russo-McMahon. If it isn't entertaining, then it's not worth putting on a WRESTLING show.

 

[chanfan304]

Dang, I have yet to see the names of Dreamer, Sandman, Sabu, and Taz. If we're talking "come out of" ECW as memorable, long lasting names in the wrestling industry as a result of the ECW run, then there are so many. If you mean the ones that were able to withstand the fall and make a name elsewhere, then yes, Austin has to be the guy. While I am the consummate RVD fanatic, he did not reach the level of popularity outside of ECW that good ole Steve did. He actually did not reach the level that a number of people did outside of ECW, but still... he's still the whole f'n show dammit.

 

[Slyfox696]

I don't see entertainment anywhere in that definition.

Wait...wait. Did....did you really just quote Wikipedia? Seriously? Give me 25 seconds, and I can fix that up nice and neat.

Sports entertainment is what you're thinking of. That doesn't have anything to do with wrestling.

No, Sports Entertainment is what WE are talking about. If you want to talk about wrestling, then go to a board to discuss Olympic freestyle, or NCAA wrestling.

I'm going to talk about Professional Wrestling, which is the same thing as Sports Entertainment. Please tell me that you know why it was called Sports Entertainment. If not, you will verily disappoint me.

Why do you think Flair sucks?

I've seen his matches.

He was always entertaining and he was good in the ring.

Entertaining? Possibly. Good in the ring? Hardly.

Hart was good in the ring, but was hardly entertaining.

Disagree completely. Hart was average out of the ring. He wasn't the Rock on the mic, but he wasn't Owen either. He could cut a decent promo, enough to get the story of his feud over. But, in the ring, Hart shined. His ability to work a crowd, and to tell a story in the match was phenomenal.

You confuse me Sly. I think you're turning in to Vince Russo-McMahon. If it isn't entertaining, then it's not worth putting on a WRESTLING show.

Exactly. Why would you put something on your show that isn't worth watching? If it's dull and boring, why would I want to see it? If I want dull and boring, I'll have sex with your girlfriend/wife.

Seriously though, why put something on a scripted show that doesn't entertain people? That makes ZERO amount of sense. How long would the TV show "Friends" been on the air, if all the actors did was sit in the coffee shop without saying a word for 25 minutes? You think the show would have made it past 5 episodes? Not a chance.

Professional wrestling IS entertainment. It's a scripted form of pseudo athletic competition, where two or more guys try to entertain the audience as much as possible. Trying to claim it is anything else is completely missing the point.

Dang, I have yet to see the names of Dreamer, Sandman, Sabu, and Taz.

That's because they sucked. No, seriously, they sucked.

If we're talking "come out of" ECW as memorable, long lasting names in the wrestling industry as a result of the ECW run, then there are so many.

Just like a whole host of minor league feds could claim. Hell, just look at OCW, and all the talent that is in WWE now from them.

 

[TwistofRKO]

Absolutely correct. A great "wrestler" doesn't have to be a technical stand-out or have a collegiate history, it gives them no secret passage way to the main event. It's about entertainment. If the main event was MVP vs Chavo, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't watch although they have plenty of moves.

 

[The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh]

Dang, I have yet to see the names of Dreamer, Sandman, Sabu, and Taz.

Well yeah but that's because they each achieved jack diggety shit in WWE/WCW/TNA. Russo and Jarrett or Vinnie Mac and his cronies want someone who is the total package, or close enough to the total package that they can justify paying them.

Paul Hayman's approach was 'what can you do? You're 300lbs and you can moonsault? Your friends laugh because of how you jiggle when you dance? Perfect! You're now going to be the Blue Meanie! Give it all ya got kid!'

Let's have a few home truths about the guys you mentioned in your post.

The Sandman - couldn't wrestle to save his life. Take the weapons and the overdrawn entrance away and you've got nothing.

Sabu - was very innovative and when he actually hit the moves properly, was great to watch. But 65% he botched the moves and i don't think i ever saw the guy cut a promo ever. Probably because a Michigan native can't pull off a believeable Middle Eastern accent i imagine.

Tommy Dreamer- If i'm truly honest, i don't see why Tommy Dreamer was never given a decent push in WWE. Maybe it's because he didn't seem passionate enough about WWE. He'll bleed to death and wrestle his ass off for his lil' league promotion that does what it wants, but in the big leagues where his 'talents' aren't needed anymore, he'll do what is neccessary to stay employed and it's obviously worked, because he's the only one still there (wrestling that is). I've always enjoyed Tommy Dreamer, weapons or no weapons, but he's obviously missing something that i'm not picking up on.

Taz - This is the most tragic one. The guy's too small....... Seriously, apart from getting hurt and having to hang up his boots, that's the only reason i can see why Taz never got a bigger push in WWE, and he may have even gotten one if he'd lasted longer. I mean, aside from RVD and Spike Dudley, he's the only original to win more than 1 WWE title, the Hardcore title and the tag titles. He had decent promos that fitted his character to a T, he had a varied moveset and a unique signature move, but nothing happened.

Most guys from other promotions have to pay their dues before they get any true pushes or recognition in WWE. It was 5 years until Booker T finally won a World title in WWE, despite being so over in WCW, and RVD took just as long to accomplish that same feat.

Christian is having to work his way up again despite how over he was when he left WWE, and how big he was once in TNA.

The only blatant exception to my theory is CM Punk who's won every fuckin' title in 2 years, which for the life of me i still don't comprehend.

Basically, if you come from another promotion to WWE, you better get uber-pops every fuckin night or you're going nowhere. If you go to TNA you'll have to prove yourself to get pushed unless you've just come from WWE.

Answering the thread question? If we mean, 'anybody who was ever in ECW', then the answer as previously stated is Austin. He became the Attitude era's version of Hogan.

If we mean 'very first national exposure was ECW' then RVD is the pick.

 

[butsecks]

raven is the best wrestler to come out of ecw...his promos were/ and still are amazing. his gimmick was innovative...his matches were solid, and his ring psychology is great...his feuds with tommy dreamer and sandman are some of the best feuds and storylines ive have ever seen.