Best Player Series: MLB Pitchers

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

This is the first in a series of threads about the best players in the MLB at their positions. I'm going to use the past 5 years as the criteria, that eliminates one hit wonder and life time acheivement award type players.

Pitchers will be the first position in the series.

The question is who do you think the best pitcher in the MLB is and why? It can be a starter or a reliever.

Be ready to defend your choice.

 

[Stormtrooper]

I am going to go with someone who should be an obvious choice, but probably won't get much consideration. This pitcher is a 40 year old 16 year veteran, but this isn't a lifetime achievement award, as he has been just as dominant now as he was during his earlier years (I didn't use prime, because this pitchers prime is seemingly endless). The pitcher I am speaking of is Mariano Rivera.

The criteria is the past 5 years, which in my eyes would be the 2005-2009 seasons. Outside of a less-then-stellar 2007 (by his lofty standards), Mariano Rivera has been absolutely outstanding. He compiled a 1.89 ERA during the 5 year period, with 190 saves in 204 chances. During these years, he received votes for the MVP 3 times (finishing as high as 9th, twice he was the highest pitcher in the race). He also finished top 5 in the Cy Young vote twice (including a 2nd place finish to Bartolo Colon in 2005). Of course all of this is during the regular season. The Postseason is where Rivera always shined (even brighter then the regular season).

During the past 5 seasons, he has thrown 24 2/3 innings, and only gave up 2 runs (1 in 05 and 1 in 09), all the while amassing 7 saves in 7 chances, and getting 0 decisions. Hell, he even picked up an RBI last year when he came up to the plate during an Inter-League game by drawing a bases-loaded walk off of Fransisco Rodriguez. How many closers can say that?

If you were to choose between any pitcher to get an out in a big situation, I implore you to find someone better qualified to do so then Mariano Rivera. Now, or during his early years.

 

[Theo Mays]

A case can be made for Tim Lincecum, as he has been 43-17 so far in his career with 2 Cy Young awards and an ERA of 2.84. 700 strikeouts in comparison to 220 walks is also pretty darn impressive. There is no doubt he has been one of the best pitchers in recent memory and I would have to say he is the best pitcher in baseball right now. Now hasn't played in the last 5 years and he hasn't really come on the scene until 2 years ago. But the last two years the guy has been dominant and he is looking like dominant again this season. He is on his 4th season in the bigs right now. His first season was pretty average with 24 games and a record of 7-5. But the last two years like I said he has been the best pitcher in the game. Great thread idea BC87, looking forward to participating in the rest.

 

[The Brain]

Off the top of my head I'll say Roy Halladay. He's 81-37 over the five year period with 34 complete games. His highest era during that period was .371 followed by .319. He also had excellent strike out to walk ratios. All this for a crappy team in the tough AL East.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Chris Carpenter

Year GP GS Innings H R ER BB SO Win Loss WHIP ERA

2005 33 33 241.2 204 82 76 51 213 21 5 1.06 2.83

2006 32 32 221.2 194 81 76 43 184 15 8 1.07 3.09

2007 N/A

2008 N/A

2009 28 28 192.2 156 49 48 38 144 17 4 1.01 2.24


I'm going with Chris Carpenter for the sake of an arguement. Carp when healthy is the best pitcher in the Major Leagues because he helps the Cardinals win. In 05 he won the Cy Young and the Cardinals made the playoffs, in 06 he was in the running for the Cy Young and the Cardinals won the World Series, in 07 and 08 he was out almost the entire season and the Cardinals missed the playoffs both years, in 09 he finished 2nd in the Cy Young voting and the cardinals made the playoffs. Sometimes I think Carpenter is the team MVP and not Pujols because the cardinals sucsess comes and goes when Carpenter is healthy.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

A case can be made for Tim Lincecum, as he has been 43-17 so far in his career with 2 Cy Young awards and an ERA of 2.84. 700 strikeouts in comparison to 220 walks is also pretty darn impressive. There is no doubt he has been one of the best pitchers in recent memory and I would have to say he is the best pitcher in baseball right now. Now hasn't played in the last 5 years and he hasn't really come on the scene until 2 years ago. But the last two years the guy has been dominant and he is looking like dominant again this season. He is on his 4th season in the bigs right now. His first season was pretty average with 24 games and a record of 7-5. But the last two years like I said he has been the best pitcher in the game. Great thread idea BC87, looking forward to participating in the rest.

Thanks Theo, TM helped me with the particulars though so some of the credit goes to him. I'm probably going to try to make one at least once every few days, and if they are a sucsess move on to other sports.

All these guys are geat pitchers and probably Hall of Fame material if they keep it up. But just agreeing is no funso for arguements sake I'll try to debate everyone's picks.

Mariano Rivera is a great closer, if not the best, but he is a closer and only pitchs 1 or 2 innings per game. In the past five years the Yankees have won the World Series one time despite having the highest payroll in all of baseball by a longshot. He isn't even the best pitcher on the team, Sabathia is. Before C.C. it was argueably Pettitte and Clemens.

Tim Lincecum is a great choice as well, but I wouldn't call him the best yet. You said yourself that he doesn't have much experience, don't get me wrong two Cy Youngs is a big deal but the Giants haven't won anything in a long time, with or without The Freak. Give it a couple years and this kid will be number 1, just not yet.

Doc Halladay is probably the best pitcher out of the bunch but he hasn't won enough in the post season. This guy has more complete games then anyone in this discussion but that didn't help his team win a Championship.

 

[People's Champ]

A case can be made for Tim Lincecum, as he has been 43-17 so far in his career with 2 Cy Young awards and an ERA of 2.84. 700 strikeouts in comparison to 220 walks is also pretty darn impressive. There is no doubt he has been one of the best pitchers in recent memory and I would have to say he is the best pitcher in baseball right now. Now hasn't played in the last 5 years and he hasn't really come on the scene until 2 years ago. But the last two years the guy has been dominant and he is looking like dominant again this season. He is on his 4th season in the bigs right now. His first season was pretty average with 24 games and a record of 7-5. But the last two years like I said he has been the best pitcher in the game. Great thread idea BC87, looking forward to participating in the rest.

Theo made my case for me haha. I mean look athe numbers, they don't lie. 700 strikeouts, 2.84 ERA to go along with back to back Cy Youngs. He right now has started the season again looking like the best pitcher in MLB. Theo had all the stats, but there is one other thing to keep in mind that should not go unnoticed. His run support. Or lack thereof. He had pitched phenomnially with a terrible offense. I don't know how many times I've seen what should be wins become losses because the Giants can't score runs. And the fact that he's won games on just his pitching alone. I understand that he hasn't had much time in the league, but what he's done already should put him at the top. Nobdy has had a career start the way his has.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Mariano Rivera is a great closer, if not the best, but he is a closer and only pitchs 1 or 2 innings per game. In the past five years the Yankees have won the World Series one time despite having the highest payroll in all of baseball by a longshot. He isn't even the best pitcher on the team, Sabathia is. Before C.C. it was argueably Pettitte and Clemens.

Please, lets not make this into a payroll argument. It's not worth it, and we all know it isn't Rivera's fault the Yankees put their moneys back into the team, when other teams do not.

1. Why all the closer hate? Sure, Rivera pitches only 1+ inning an outing, but Starting Pitchers only pitch once every 5+ days. And pitching the 9th inning is much much different (and harder) then pitching other innings.


2. Pettitte better then Rivera? You gotta be shitting me. I love Andy Pettitte and CC Sabathia, but they have never been in the same league as Rivera is now. The argument can be made that Clemens wasn't, either. Pettitte and CC both are not nearly as dominant, and haven't done it nearly as long as Rivera. Even in the past 5 years, CC has only been really dominant during his stint with the Brewers. Rivera is widely regarded as the greatest closer of the modern era, and no one can say CC, Andy, or even Clemens as the greatest of the modern era.

3. 2 words are really all that matters when arguing against Carpenter and Lincecum. NATIONAL LEAGUE. The National League is a natural, legal PED for pitchers, whom lower their ERA around .75 runs, just by switching leagues. Rivera (and Halladay, who deserves consideration in this as well) have been dominant in the tougher American League. Hell, they were both dominant in what is (recently) the toughest division in baseball by a longshot, the AL East.

 

[The People's Peep]

another reason why Rivera is a great choice is because of one word: cutter. i dont think there is another pitcher/pitch connection that is strong than Mo and the cutter. it is arguably the greatest and most effective pitch in the history of the game (im talking about Rivera's cutter, not cutters in general). hitters step into the box saying to themselves "ok. here come a cutter" and they still cant hit it. pitch after pitch is a cutter and the batters cant do anything about it. in my opinion, that is the definition of dominance.

 

[Theo Mays]

Tim Lincecum is a great choice as well, but I wouldn't call him the best yet. You said yourself that he doesn't have much experience, don't get me wrong two Cy Youngs is a big deal but the Giants haven't won anything in a long time, with or without The Freak. Give it a couple years and this kid will be number 1, just not yet.

Even with the "lack of experience" per se, no pitcher has dominated the game like Lincecum. You know that when he goes out there that you are going to have your hands full and you'll be lucky to score 3 runs. There is no doubt that the other pitchers deserve some credit here as well. Doc is awesome and has been a great addition to my Phils. Mo is no doubt one of the 2 greatest closers of all time, but for me to consider you the best pitcher I want you to pitch more than 2 innings at a time. Carpenter is great, but the injuries bother me and I want a healthy guy out there at all times.

No pitcher has gone out and dominated like Lincecum has these past few years and even with the "lack of experience" I'd still take him over any pitcher in baseball today.

 

[Scotty]

I have got to go with Theo here. Tim Lincecum owns the game of baseball. He has that stats. I do not want to repeat the stats all over again, but they do not lie.

Career statistics
(through April 17, 2010)
Win-Loss 43–17
Earned run average 2.84
Strikeouts 700
Walks 220
WHIP 1.14
Shutouts 3

My God that is domination. He has accomplished by age 25 what most people will not accomplish in their life. Twice! Cy Young twice by the age of 25 is a great sign for the game of baseball. Add that with his terrific fundamentals, work ethic, and natural God given talent, you have the makings of a Ace for your team for many years to come.

 

[Mr. TM]

I think I would say Halladay here if it was restricted to starting pitchers, but because I value a closer more than I value a starter, I am going to pick the guy who when I see come into the ball game, 9 times out of 9.5, he is going to get the win for his team.

Despite only one World Series, and the toll of age (something I see very little of for the guy) Mariano Rivera is the most feared pitcher in baseball when he comes up against my team. Playing in his division, it does happen a lot. Right now, the Blue Jays are known as the comebackers of the year, but against Mariano Rivera there is no comeback. If you need a guy to save a game for you, he is the man I put in.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Theo made my case for me haha. I mean look athe numbers, they don't lie. 700 strikeouts, 2.84 ERA to go along with back to back Cy Youngs. He right now has started the season again looking like the best pitcher in MLB. Theo had all the stats, but there is one other thing to keep in mind that should not go unnoticed. His run support. Or lack thereof. He had pitched phenomnially with a terrible offense. I don't know how many times I've seen what should be wins become losses because the Giants can't score runs. And the fact that he's won games on just his pitching alone. I understand that he hasn't had much time in the league, but what he's done already should put him at the top. Nobdy has had a career start the way his has.

I agree with you saying that Tim is a great pitcher and no he doesn't get enough run support, but in the past five years how many times have the Giants even made the playoffs? Lincecum can pitch his ass off that's for sure but I wouldn't can him the best since in the time he has been there the Giants haven't made any waves in the post season. I would call him the best pitcher on a mediocre team, no offense to the Giants, they are improving but they haven't really built their team up since Bonds left, they are on their way, but not there just yet.

Please, lets not make this into a payroll argument. It's not worth it, and we all know it isn't Rivera's fault the Yankees put their moneys back into the team, when other teams do not.

1. Why all the closer hate? Sure, Rivera pitches only 1+ inning an outing, but Starting Pitchers only pitch once every 5+ days. And pitching the 9th inning is much much different (and harder) then pitching other innings.


2. Pettitte better then Rivera? You gotta be shitting me. I love Andy Pettitte and CC Sabathia, but they have never been in the same league as Rivera is now. The argument can be made that Clemens wasn't, either. Pettitte and CC both are not nearly as dominant, and haven't done it nearly as long as Rivera. Even in the past 5 years, CC has only been really dominant during his stint with the Brewers. Rivera is widely regarded as the greatest closer of the modern era, and no one can say CC, Andy, or even Clemens as the greatest of the modern era.

3. 2 words are really all that matters when arguing against Carpenter and Lincecum. NATIONAL LEAGUE. The National League is a natural, legal PED for pitchers, whom lower their ERA around .75 runs, just by switching leagues. Rivera (and Halladay, who deserves consideration in this as well) have been dominant in the tougher American League. Hell, they were both dominant in what is (recently) the toughest division in baseball by a longshot, the AL East.

You and your damn Yankees Well ok I won't make it into a payroll debate because payroll has nothing to do with how a team performs, Florida Marlins are proof of that.

1) I don't hate closers at all, I think that they are an intricate part of the bullpen, hell my biggest complaint with the Cardinals is Ryan Franklin, and he's not that bad. The reason I don't give the closer my vote for best pitcher is the lack of innings pitched. A closer can't win the game for a team, he can only lose it, and even if you have a bad closer the most he'll lose is around 10 games.

2) I'll give you those.

3) This is why I like you but hate you at the same time Your arguement is a double edged sword, yes a NL pitcher doesn't pitch to the almighty Designated Hitter, but a NL pitcher aslo has to hit thus breaking his mental concentration. If you want proof just look at all the perfect games thrown, more have been in the AL which is supposed to be the better hitting league.

another reason why Rivera is a great choice is because of one word: cutter. i dont think there is another pitcher/pitch connection that is strong than Mo and the cutter. it is arguably the greatest and most effective pitch in the history of the game (im talking about Rivera's cutter, not cutters in general). hitters step into the box saying to themselves "ok. here come a cutter" and they still cant hit it. pitch after pitch is a cutter and the batters cant do anything about it. in my opinion, that is the definition of dominance.

The same can be said for Wakefield and his knuckleball(on a good day)

Even with the "lack of experience" per se, no pitcher has dominated the game like Lincecum. You know that when he goes out there that you are going to have your hands full and you'll be lucky to score 3 runs. There is no doubt that the other pitchers deserve some credit here as well. Doc is awesome and has been a great addition to my Phils. Mo is no doubt one of the 2 greatest closers of all time, but for me to consider you the best pitcher I want you to pitch more than 2 innings at a time. Carpenter is great, but the injuries bother me and I want a healthy guy out there at all times.

No pitcher has gone out and dominated like Lincecum has these past few years and even with the "lack of experience" I'd still take him over any pitcher in baseball today.

I'm completetly with you on almost this whole post Theo, yes Carp's injuries bother me too, but when he is healthy he is a beast and the Cardinals win, hell last year he was second in th Cy Young to Lincecum and he missed a month or two at the beginning of the season.

I have got to go with Theo here. Tim Lincecum owns the game of baseball. He has that stats. I do not want to repeat the stats all over again, but they do not lie.



My God that is domination. He has accomplished by age 25 what most people will not accomplish in their life. Twice! Cy Young twice by the age of 25 is a great sign for the game of baseball. Add that with his terrific fundamentals, work ethic, and natural God given talent, you have the makings of a Ace for your team for many years to come.

The kid is good for baseball and is becoming one of my favorite non Cardinals to watch. But I will say that the strikeout is an overrated stat, yes it's exciting and can pump up your team but it also takes more pitches to get then a groundball out. People always hold the strikeout in such a high regard as the end all be all in pitching, but it's not, if you can use one pitch to get a guy out as opposed to at least three, I'd say smart money would go with one pitch.

I think I would say Halladay here if it was restricted to starting pitchers, but because I value a closer more than I value a starter, I am going to pick the guy who when I see come into the ball game, 9 times out of 9.5, he is going to get the win for his team.

Despite only one World Series, and the toll of age (something I see very little of for the guy) Mariano Rivera is the most feared pitcher in baseball when he comes up against my team. Playing in his division, it does happen a lot. Right now, the Blue Jays are known as the comebackers of the year, but against Mariano Rivera there is no comeback. If you need a guy to save a game for you, he is the man I put in.

I'll give you the same reasons I gave Trooper, I can't call the best pitcher in the game a closer, Yes he does closer the door on a win, but he can only lose a game for you and doesn't throw enough innings for me.

 

[Stormtrooper]

You and your damn Yankees Well ok I won't make it into a payroll debate because payroll has nothing to do with how a team performs, Florida Marlins are proof of that.

1. God damn you for bring up the Marlins, the real end of the Yankee Torre Dynasty.
2. Yes, my damn Yankees. I am sitting here arguing for my Yankees while listening to Moving Forward, Bernie Williams 2nd album (and I'm not ashamed to admit that, since it's pretty damn good).

1) I don't hate closers at all, I think that they are an intricate part of the bullpen, hell my biggest complaint with the Cardinals is Ryan Franklin, and he's not that bad. The reason I don't give the closer my vote for best pitcher is the lack of innings pitched. A closer can't win the game for a team, he can only lose it, and even if you have a bad closer the most he'll lose is around 10 games.

I bolded that last part because those 10 games is a shitload of games. Lets look at the 2009 season. 9 teams finished within 10 games of their respective divisions (2 of which were the wildcard teams). of those teams, only the Red Sox had a top echelon closer (and that may be somewhat debatable). Put Rivera on ANY of those teams, and they make the playoffs. Yes, he lacks innings pitched, but as I said, the 9th inning is the most taxing on a pitcher, because of the stress of the game being over one way or the other.

3) This is why I like you but hate you at the same time Your arguement is a double edged sword, yes a NL pitcher doesn't pitch to the almighty Designated Hitter, but a NL pitcher aslo has to hit thus breaking his mental concentration. If you want proof just look at all the perfect games thrown, more have been in the AL which is supposed to be the better hitting league.

You are right, hitting might break a pitchers concentration. But he still goes out and gets an inning off. I'll take a "break of concentration" in order to get an inning off every couple innings.

The same can be said for Wakefield and his knuckleball(on a good day)

You are trying to compare Rivera to Wakefield, that gets you the green disappointed guy.

Anyway, the bolded portion again is the important factor. ON A GOOD DAY. Wakefield rarely has a "good day," and when he is less then an ordinary pitcher. When Rivera is off his game, he is still effective.

 

[The People's Peep]

You are trying to compare Rivera to Wakefield, that gets you the green disappointed guy.

Anyway, the bolded portion again is the important factor. ON A GOOD DAY. Wakefield rarely has a "good day," and when he is less then an ordinary pitcher. When Rivera is off his game, he is still effective.

i was going to say the exact same thing. you cant even compare the two. when someone says the word "cutter" to you, if you dont think mariano rivera, you dont know baseball. when someone says the word "knuckleball", i dont think "oh yeah Tim Wakefield". on top of that, compare the ages of the two leading candidates for the debate. Rivera is almost 40 years old and still dominating. when most pitchers are digging deep inside for their last pitches, mariano looks like he can go for another 5 years. Lincecum is young and with his stuff, he should be dominating and he is. but the fact that Mo is doing at his age gives him the edge. Lincecum can win this debate after Mo retires.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

1. God damn you for bring up the Marlins, the real end of the Yankee Torre Dynasty.
2. Yes, my damn Yankees. I am sitting here arguing for my Yankees while listening to Moving Forward, Bernie Williams 2nd album (and I'm not ashamed to admit that, since it's pretty damn good).

Ha ha I forgot about that, sorry man, at least we can both agree on hating the 2004 Red Sox.

I bolded that last part because those 10 games is a shitload of games. Lets look at the 2009 season. 9 teams finished within 10 games of their respective divisions (2 of which were the wildcard teams). of those teams, only the Red Sox had a top echelon closer (and that may be somewhat debatable). Put Rivera on ANY of those teams, and they make the playoffs. Yes, he lacks innings pitched, but as I said, the 9th inning is the most taxing on a pitcher, because of the stress of the game being over one way or the other.

That is true 10 games is alot, that's why Carpenter is better, he wins around 20 games a season. No matter how good your closer is you need a good starter to win.

You are right, hitting might break a pitchers concentration. But he still goes out and gets an inning off. I'll take a "break of concentration" in order to get an inning off every couple innings.

I'd rather stay in the zone because even though a pitcher is usually not the best hitter on the team he is still a big leaguer and can sneek a hit or two in there, besides a NL pitcher doesn't face another pitcher everytime the 9 hole comes around, a pinch hitter can be pretty hard to get out, because the pitcher is not expecting it and has to change his gameplan accordingly.

You are trying to compare Rivera to Wakefield, that gets you the green disappointed guy.

Anyway, the bolded portion again is the important factor. ON A GOOD DAY. Wakefield rarely has a "good day," and when he is less then an ordinary pitcher. When Rivera is off his game, he is still effective.

I'll take your green disappointed guy, that's fine. I'll give the reason why I said it in a minute. But I put the bolded point in there for that reason.

i was going to say the exact same thing. you cant even compare the two. when someone says the word "cutter" to you, if you dont think mariano rivera, you dont know baseball. when someone says the word "knuckleball", i dont think "oh yeah Tim Wakefield". on top of that, compare the ages of the two leading candidates for the debate. Rivera is almost 40 years old and still dominating. when most pitchers are digging deep inside for their last pitches, mariano looks like he can go for another 5 years. Lincecum is young and with his stuff, he should be dominating and he is. but the fact that Mo is doing at his age gives him the edge. Lincecum can win this debate after Mo retires.

C'mon man if you don't either think Wakefield or Niekro when you hear knuckleball then you don't know baseball. You might think Rivera when you hear cutter in New York but that's it.

But besides all the age arguements the question is who is the best pitcher in the last five years. I refuse to call a guy that only pitches around 60 innings a year the best, I'm sorry but I can't. A great starter is more important than a great closer. The best arguement for Rivera is that he doesn't lose the game for the Yankees very often, but how many does he win?


FYI I don't hate the Yankees even though it might seem that way, I hate the Red Sox.

 

[Stormtrooper]

That is true 10 games is alot, that's why Carpenter is better, he wins around 20 games a season. No matter how good your closer is you need a good starter to win.

and how many of those 20 games did Carpenter pitch the 9th inning? In modern baseball, you NEED a closer to be good. Cy Young didn't need a closer. Hell, neither did Bob Gibson. Carpenter DAMN SURE needs one. During his 5 years, he had 15 complete games, and 53 wins. Even if all 15 CGs came in wins, that leads 38 games he was unable to finish. He needed the bullpen to finish the job. Both sides need each other to win baseball games.

I'd rather stay in the zone because even though a pitcher is usually not the best hitter on the team he is still a big leaguer and can sneek a hit or two in there, besides a NL pitcher doesn't face another pitcher everytime the 9 hole comes around, a pinch hitter can be pretty hard to get out, because the pitcher is not expecting it and has to change his gameplan accordingly.

A pinch hitter usually is not good enough to start (hence the reason he doesn't), so he obviously isn't better then the average DH in the AL. Anyway, name me an expert who doesn't say that pitching in the NL is easier then the AL. When Halladay went to the Phillies, most everyone said he would get around 25 wins. And on average, a pitcher's ERA goes down 0.75 when making the move. Therefore, it is easier to pitch in the NL.

C'mon man if you don't either think Wakefield or Niekro when you hear knuckleball then you don't know baseball. You might think Rivera when you hear cutter in New York but that's it.

You are right about Niekro, and to a much lesser extent Niekro. Even to a much much lesser extent about Rivera. The Cutter is a common pitch, but Rivera is known to have the most unhittable one in baseball, and it really isn't all that close.

But besides all the age arguements the question is who is the best pitcher in the last five years. I refuse to call a guy that only pitches around 60 innings a year the best, I'm sorry but I can't. A great starter is more important than a great closer. The best arguement for Rivera is that he doesn't lose the game for the Yankees very often, but how many does he win?

In all honesty, doesn't lose is pretty much equal to winning. Rivera comes into close games, in the last inning (when the other team pulls out all the stops in an effort to continue the game), and is required to win the game. That is one of the most pressure jobs in all of baseball.

FYI I don't hate the Yankees even though it might seem that way, I hate the Red Sox.

I thought there was a reason you were awesome.

 

[The People's Peep]

C'mon man if you don't either think Wakefield or Niekro when you hear knuckleball then you don't know baseball. You might think Rivera when you hear cutter in New York but that's it.

But besides all the age arguements the question is who is the best pitcher in the last five years. I refuse to call a guy that only pitches around 60 innings a year the best, I'm sorry but I can't. A great starter is more important than a great closer. The best arguement for Rivera is that he doesn't lose the game for the Yankees very often, but how many does he win?


FYI I don't hate the Yankees even though it might seem that way, I hate the Red Sox.

Ha. when i wrote my last post, i was gonna say that i think of Niekro if anything. but i didnt think it was important.

about the innings argument, the question was "who is the best pitcher in the league?" if it was "who would you rather take?" i would choose Lincecum without a doubt because of the innings. But because we are talking about who is better, it really is all about skill and domination. I understand that it might be easier for someone to be dominate when he is only throwing one inning at a time and now i see that you really cant compare the two. they are different breeds. Rivera comes in, throws the same pitch over and over, and gets the save. Lincecum has to throw different pitches over several innings and really think about outsmarting the hitter.

in essence, Rivera is the best at running sprints and Lincecum is the best marathon runner.

and by the way, add another one to the "i hate the red sox" club

 

[People's Champ]

Lincecum is going for win number 5 in the first month of the season. He has been a hell of a pitcher this season and this just proof that we are looking at the best pitcher in the game. You didn't ask who was the best pitcher on the best team, or pitcher on playoff teams. You asked who was the best pitcher in MLB. I think that the fact that the Giants have such a bad offense works in his favor. He doesn't get help yet look at his stats. He continues to go out and get wins even tho the offense scores 3 or 4 runs, if they are lucky.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Lincecum is going for win number 5 in the first month of the season. He has been a hell of a pitcher this season and this just proof that we are looking at the best pitcher in the game. You didn't ask who was the best pitcher on the best team, or pitcher on playoff teams. You asked who was the best pitcher in MLB. I think that the fact that the Giants have such a bad offense works in his favor. He doesn't get help yet look at his stats. He continues to go out and get wins even tho the offense scores 3 or 4 runs, if they are lucky.

I'm going to use the past 5 years as the criteria, that eliminates one hit wonder and life time acheivement award type players.

Tim Lincecum's MLB stats for the 2005 and 2006 seasons:
2005:
2006:

Can you read them? I typed them above this sentence. Maybe try reading them aloud or something. Oh wait, you can't, because they do not exist. HE wasn't even in the big leagues til 2007. He is a phenom, but how can one be the best pitcher over the past 5 years if they have 2 years in which they weren't even there.

Some more anti-Lincecum facts:
-In one of his 3 seasons he ended with a 4.00 ERA.
-In his 2 Cy Young winning seasons he was given 4.6 runs per game run support, which is not as embarrassing as people make it out to be. Their offense is sub-par, but 4.6 is acceptable.
-His bullpen only cost him 9 games (in his 2 Cy Young years), and the pen saved him 4 times. So the Bullpen isn't really affecting him.

Tim Lincecum is a beast, and he has had 2 absolutely phenomenal years, but the other 3 were nothing special (especially the 2 in which he didn't do anything). That is why he ISN'T the best pitcher over the past 5 years.

 

[People's Champ]

Tim Lincecum's MLB stats for the 2005 and 2006 seasons:
2005:
2006:

Can you read them? I typed them above this sentence. Maybe try reading them aloud or something. Oh wait, you can't, because they do not exist. HE wasn't even in the big leagues til 2007. He is a phenom, but how can one be the best pitcher over the past 5 years if they have 2 years in which they weren't even there.

Some more anti-Lincecum facts:
-In one of his 3 seasons he ended with a 4.00 ERA.
-In his 2 Cy Young winning seasons he was given 4.6 runs per game run support, which is not as embarrassing as people make it out to be. Their offense is sub-par, but 4.6 is acceptable.
-His bullpen only cost him 9 games (in his 2 Cy Young years), and the pen saved him 4 times. So the Bullpen isn't really affecting him.

Tim Lincecum is a beast, and he has had 2 absolutely phenomenal years, but the other 3 were nothing special (especially the 2 in which he didn't do anything). That is why he ISN'T the best pitcher over the past 5 years.

I'm not supid so quoting Blue is unnecessary. It says the last 5 years to avoid 1 hit wonders and lifetime achievment players. The Freak is neither. Throwing out his lack of stats from 05 and 06 actually doesn't hurt my opinion. His first 3 years are better than 98% of anyone else's last 5 years. And I will argue that against anyone. Mariano has had a great career and doesn't look like he's slowed down much, but he's a closer. Lincecum goes out every game and goes at least 7 innings per game and still puts unbelievable numbers. And I bring up the offense because that's reason they haven't made the playoffs. If they had half the offense the Yankees have they would eaily win the West.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I'm not supid so quoting Blue is unnecessary. It says the last 5 years to avoid 1 hit wonders and lifetime achievment players. The Freak is neither. Throwing out his lack of stats from 05 and 06 actually doesn't hurt my opinion. His first 3 years are better than 98% of anyone else's last 5 years. And I will argue that against anyone. Mariano has had a great career and doesn't look like he's slowed down much, but he's a closer. Lincecum goes out every game and goes at least 7 innings per game and still puts unbelievable numbers. And I bring up the offense because that's reason they haven't made the playoffs. If they had half the offense the Yankees have they would eaily win the West.

I'm just going to throw this in here for now and reply to everyone's posts a little later, but the reason I'm saying Lincecum isn't the best is because his team hasn't won anything. My pick Carpenter also missed two years in the past five due to injury, but in the 3 that he was healthy the Cardinals were in the playoffs, won the World Series in 2006, he won the Cy Young, hasn't finished outside the top 3 in Cy Young voting in those three years, and last year finished 2nd to Tim having missed a month or two that season and splitting votes between him and Wainwright gave Lincecum the edge last year.

 

[The People's Peep]

I'm not supid so quoting Blue is unnecessary. It says the last 5 years to avoid 1 hit wonders and lifetime achievment players. The Freak is neither. Throwing out his lack of stats from 05 and 06 actually doesn't hurt my opinion. His first 3 years are better than 98% of anyone else's last 5 years. And I will argue that against anyone. Mariano has had a great career and doesn't look like he's slowed down much, but he's a closer. Lincecum goes out every game and goes at least 7 innings per game and still puts unbelievable numbers. And I bring up the offense because that's reason they haven't made the playoffs. If they had half the offense the Yankees have they would eaily win the West.

You dont know if he is a one hit wonder. he could blow out his elbow tomorrow, probably from that crazy delivery of his, and never be the same again. but thats not the important part. having no stats for two of the last 5 years hurts his argument in this debate, especially when you are pointing directly at stats to support your argument. That lack of two years could be really helping him. lets say he did play in 05 and 06 and he had an ERA over 4 like he did one year. that significantly raises his ERA over the last 5 years. He almost has an unfair advantage from not playing.

and be careful with what you say because he does not "go out there every game". he goes out there every 5 games.

 

[People's Champ]

Ok so let me start by correcting myself since it seems I'm not technically correct. Every game he pitches is the term I will use. I don't know why I have to be carefull but anyways there the correction.

Lincecum can't control what the team does. Is it his fault that the Giants were stupid in building a ballpark that doesn't attract hitters? No. He can only do what he can and that's pitch his best on the night he's called. And that's exactly what he does. He regulary gives the Giants a great game and a great chance to win.

How do I know he's not a one hit wonder? Because of the way he pitches. He's won two Cy Youngs, something nobody has done to start their career. If he wasa one hit wonder he wouldn't be considered the best pitcher RIGHT NOW in the major leagues. He wouldn't be a front runner to win his 3rd straight Cy Young award. Yes he does have a crazy delivery but so what? That's what makes him the freak and helps him be the dominate pitcher that he his. And don't give me what if's. What if question are rediculous because they are hypotheticals. What if A-Rod blows out his knee and never plays again? Rediculous.

Listen I'm all for debate on this topic. That's what this thread is for. But don't come on here and talk to me as if what you are stating is fact. This is all a matter of opinion and I've given mine.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Jake Peavy. Although he plays for the Ghetto ass White Sox now, Peavy's as close to hittable as you can find in the past 5 years. We're talking All-Star selections in 2005 and 2007 and started in both games. Also won the Cy Young Award in 2007...and even won the pitching Triple Crown (wins, strikeouts, ERA). His CAREER ERA is 3.33 as of right now. That's phenomenal considering the Padres weren't very good during his tenure there.

I'll put Peavy at his peak against ANY pitcher today in a clutch situation. All he does is throw strikes.