Best Player Series: MLB Pitchers

[The People's Peep]

How do I know he's not a one hit wonder? Because of the way he pitches. He's won two Cy Youngs, something nobody has done to start their career. If he wasa one hit wonder he wouldn't be considered the best pitcher RIGHT NOW in the major leagues. He wouldn't be a front runner to win his 3rd straight Cy Young award. Yes he does have a crazy delivery but so what? That's what makes him the freak and helps him be the dominate pitcher that he his. And don't give me what if's. What if question are rediculous because they are hypotheticals. What if A-Rod blows out his knee and never plays again? Rediculous.

Listen I'm all for debate on this topic. That's what this thread is for. But don't come on here and talk to me as if what you are stating is fact. This is all a matter of opinion and I've given mine.

I wasnt calling out his delivery as bad or terrible. i was just citing it as a possible reason for him to blow out his elbow. my what if question was meant to show how different his situation is from the other top candidates. the whole A-rod comparison doesnt work. A-Rod has been playing for 15 years and if he blows out his knee, he already has an established legacy. Lincecum has been around for 3 years and if he blows out his elbow, he really becomes forgotten and is only remembered for "what could've been".

I am also for debating on the game i love. I wasnt trying to make it seem like i was stating facts. i was also stating my opinion. Honestly, my opinion is now that you cant come up with an answer. Starters and closers are so different that you cant compare the two. im willing to say that Lincecum is the best starting pitcher and Rivera is the best closer. Other than that, its impossible to decide who is better.

Plus, youre a giants fan and im a yankee fan. we are both obviously a little biased here.

 

[People's Champ]

I wasnt calling out his delivery as bad or terrible. i was just citing it as a possible reason for him to blow out his elbow. my what if question was meant to show how different his situation is from the other top candidates. the whole A-rod comparison doesnt work. A-Rod has been playing for 15 years and if he blows out his knee, he already has an established legacy. Lincecum has been around for 3 years and if he blows out his elbow, he really becomes forgotten and is only remembered for "what could've been".

I am also for debating on the game i love. I wasnt trying to make it seem like i was stating facts. i was also stating my opinion. Honestly, my opinion is now that you cant come up with an answer. Starters and closers are so different that you cant compare the two. im willing to say that Lincecum is the best starting pitcher and Rivera is the best closer. Other than that, its impossible to decide who is better.

Plus, youre a giants fan and im a yankee fan. we are both obviously a little biased here.

Come up with an answer for what? I've stated my case as to why I think its Lincecum. Beisdes pure numbers I've said he always goes out and thows hard and give everything he's got for the team and it usually is a win. Even tho yesterday he didn't finish, he's still 4-0. He's got a 1.27 ERA, which is better than big name pitcher we have named here. He leads the league in strikeouts. That tells me he isn't a one hit wonder. And as I said I'd be willing to bet his first 3 seasons were better than any pitcher in the last 5 years. I could go all day.

But you are right. We have a bias here and probably won't agree on who is better. I'm willing to agree to disagree here. I do believe Mariano was and still is the best closer in the game. Besides, with the Sharks playing tonight my focus has shifted so we both are right how bout that?

 

[Scotty]

Come up with an answer for what? I've stated my case as to why I think its Lincecum. Beisdes pure numbers I've said he always goes out and thows hard and give everything he's got for the team and it usually is a win. Even tho yesterday he didn't finish, he's still 4-0. He's got a 1.27 ERA, which is better than big name pitcher we have named here. He leads the league in strikeouts. That tells me he isn't a one hit wonder. And as I said I'd be willing to bet his first 3 seasons were better than any pitcher in the last 5 years. I could go all day.

But you are right. We have a bias here and probably won't agree on who is better. I'm willing to agree to disagree here. I do believe Mariano was and still is the best closer in the game. Besides, with the Sharks playing tonight my focus has shifted so we both are right how bout that?

Well Roy Halladay only has a 1.80 ERA and a 4-1 record. The man is a machine who goes the distance quite often. He could have 200 strikeouts a year, but he chooses to let the batter put the bat on the ball, keep the pitch count down, trust his defense, and let the relievers take a well needed rest. He goes deep into the game, gets ground balls for double plays and strikeouts when needed. The man keeps his pitch count down and gets win after win for whatever team he is playing for.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Jake Peavy. Although he plays for the Ghetto ass White Sox now, Peavy's as close to hittable as you can find in the past 5 years. We're talking All-Star selections in 2005 and 2007 and started in both games. Also won the Cy Young Award in 2007...and even won the pitching Triple Crown (wins, strikeouts, ERA). His CAREER ERA is 3.33 as of right now. That's phenomenal considering the Padres weren't very good during his tenure there.

I'll put Peavy at his peak against ANY pitcher today in a clutch situation. All he does is throw strikes.

Sorry Lariat, as funny as the "Ghetto Ass White Sox" comment was, Jake Peavy isn't even close to the best pitcher in the last five years. His best year was 2007, when he won the Cy Young. Other than that year he has only been above .500 one time and his record was 9-6.

 

[CH David]

I'm giving the nod to the Doc. (Sorry, not you Doc) Doc Halladay is a beast, and consistent to boot. From 2005-2009, likely the five year period Blue Cardinal is looking at, he went 81-37, with a 2.98 ERA. Can you say dealing? He was on a pretty mediocre team in Toronto, performance-wise. It was obviously difficult for the team itself to compete in the AL East, especially with the Yankees and Red Sox being their normal selves, and the Rays becoming a force.

However, he was able to win 81 games in 5 years with that team. He also had 34 complete games, with 9 shutouts. He is consistently in the 200+ innings pitched, with 2005 being the only season he didn't surpass 200 due to injury. Don't get me wrong, Lincecum and all the others mentioned (I only remember Carpenter and Peavy (due to Lariat's hatred of the White Sox )) definitely should be mentioned. Lincecum is a phenom, no doubt about it, but I want to see where he is in 2 years. Carpenter is good, won the Cy Young, as well as a World Series. I just don't think he is better than Halladay.

 

[Baller]

Without a doubt it is Roy Halladay.

Over the past 5 years, he has dominated in the AL East the toughest division in baseball, with a crappy bullpen, and a lineup that was always poor. Doc always found a way to win at least 15 games in all those years.

As a Phillies he has been practically untouchable, and now that he has a lineup, I see him winning 20 games this year. He is already 4-1, with a 1.80 ERA, and with that lineup he has, they will be putting runs on the board, putting less pressure on the best in the game in Roy Halladay.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Alright I see a few people saying Roy Halladay, but my arguement against Doc is what has he won? Yes he throws a billion complete games but those complete games mean shit if he doesn't get into the post season. Carpenter, when healthy leads the Cardinals to the post season every year, when he is hurt the Cardinals don't make it. So Carpenter is the best pitcher because when he is healthy the Cardinals win, not to mention being in the top 3 in the Cy Young voting every year.

 

[Baller]

Alright I see a few people saying Roy Halladay, but my arguement against Doc is what has he won? Yes he throws a billion complete games but those complete games mean shit if he doesn't get into the post season. Carpenter, when healthy leads the Cardinals to the post season every year, when he is hurt the Cardinals don't make it. So Carpenter is the best pitcher because when he is healthy the Cardinals win, not to mention being in the top 3 in the Cy Young voting every year.

I guarantee you if the Roy Halladay and Chris Carpenter had switched teams, The Cardinals would be in the playoffs, and the Blue Jays still wouldn't. Look what happens when Roy Halladay is on a good team, he dominates, and will lead his team to the playoffs. Baseball is not a 1 man game. That is why there are 9 guys on the field, and a 25 man roster. One man can not do it all, and that is why this argument is completely flawed.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

I guarantee you if the Roy Halladay and Chris Carpenter had switched teams, The Cardinals would be in the playoffs, and the Blue Jays still wouldn't. Look what happens when Roy Halladay is on a good team, he dominates, and will lead his team to the playoffs. Baseball is not a 1 man game. That is why there are 9 guys on the field, and a 25 man roster. One man can not do it all, and that is why this argument is completely flawed.

Too bad the in the last 5 years Carp and Doc weren't on each others teams then. The fact is Carp is on his team and Doc was on the Blue Jays, the Jays were not that bad of a team a couple of those years and they still didn't win. This isn't a fantasy baseball arguement here it is who is the best and the criteria is the last five years. What is the main arguement against Dan Marino for not being the best QB ever? It's the fact that he never won the big one.

 

[Baller]

Too bad the in the last 5 years Carp and Doc weren't on each others teams then. The fact is Carp is on his team and Doc was on the Blue Jays, the Jays were not that bad of a team a couple of those years and they still didn't win. This isn't a fantasy baseball arguement here it is who is the best and the criteria is the last five years. What is the main arguement against Dan Marino for not being the best QB ever? It's the fact that he never won the big one.

Yes but first of all, Doc pitched in BY FAR the toughest division in baseball in the American League East, while the NL Central is clearly not as tough. And I know that they were not on each others team, and I love Carpenter, but the fact that Doc won so many games for such a bad team and yes the Blue Jays have been bad for all 5 years, shows how great a pitcher he is.

Now Halladay is dominating the NL East in his first year for the Phillies, which is a great team, just like the Cardinals are a great team this year, and Halladay will be a 20 game winner as long as he is healthy.

 

[Big Sexy]

Alright I see a few people saying Roy Halladay, but my arguement against Doc is what has he won? Yes he throws a billion complete games but those complete games mean shit if he doesn't get into the post season. Carpenter, when healthy leads the Cardinals to the post season every year, when he is hurt the Cardinals don't make it. So Carpenter is the best pitcher because when he is healthy the Cardinals win, not to mention being in the top 3 in the Cy Young voting every year.

Your argument of the Cardinals only winning with Carpenter has some flaws in it. In 2006 when the Cardinals won the World Series they only had 83 wins. 9 out of 10 years that isn't going to get you into the playoffs. In 2007 without Carpenter they only won 5 less games finishing with 78 wins and they had also lost their second best starter, Jeff Suppan, to free agency so it wasn't just Carpenter being out that hurt them.

Then in 2008 again without Carpenter they had 86 wins which was more then they had during the 2006 World Series year. In 2009 with Carpenter back they did have their best year in a while with 91 wins, but the addition of Matt Holliday half way through the season was also a big reason for that.

I'm not knocking Carpenter and he is definitely in consideration for this topic, but I'd go with guys like Halladay or Santana who have actually pitched the last 5 complete seasons over a guy who has missed two complete seasons in that same time span.

 

[Theo Mays]

Is Big Sexy the first person to mention Johan Santana? I was going to come here today and make a case for him though I selected Lincecum. My anti-Mets thinking took over and I forgot to do so. Santana could easily have a case made for him. Excluding this year Santana has won 79 games over the course of the previous 5 seasons. That is compared to 42 losses. The L's are a bit high, but the wins are there and his ERA shows as well. His average ERA in the last five years has been 2.93. That is pretty damn impressive considering the split in the AL and NL. His K/BB ratio is pretty stellar as well. An average of 214 K's over the last 5 years compared to an average of 50 BB's. That is a 4.3 K/BB ratio. A WHIP of 1.08 averaged out over 5 years. Not sure if anyone is going to top that. I'd still take Lincy and Doc over him, but I'd have to put Johan in the 3 spot.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Your argument of the Cardinals only winning with Carpenter has some flaws in it. In 2006 when the Cardinals won the World Series they only had 83 wins. 9 out of 10 years that isn't going to get you into the playoffs. In 2007 without Carpenter they only won 5 less games finishing with 78 wins and they had also lost their second best starter, Jeff Suppan, to free agency so it wasn't just Carpenter being out that hurt them.

In 2006 the Cardinals would have been dead in the water without Carpenter. In the 2006 postseason Carpenter went 3-1, if he wouldn't have been there the replacement starter would not have had the same record. In 2007 th Cardinals finished 7 games out in the NL Central, if Carpenter would have been healthy they would have made the playoffs, because I'm positive he would have won enough games to close that gap.

Then in 2008 again without Carpenter they had 86 wins which was more then they had during the 2006 World Series year. In 2009 with Carpenter back they did have their best year in a while with 91 wins, but the addition of Matt Holliday half way through the season was also a big reason for that.

In 2008 the Cardinals only finished 4 games out of the Wild Card, and 11.5 games out of the Division, again if Carpenter would have been healthy that gap would have been closed and the Cardinals would have made the playoffs. I'm not going to argue that Holliday helped the Cardinals alot in 2009, since they were 52-46 before the trade, but again if Carpenter isn't healthy you can take away 17 wins and the Cardinals might not make the trade for Holliday and they definately don't make the playoffs.

I'm not knocking Carpenter and he is definitely in consideration for this topic, but I'd go with guys like Halladay or Santana who have actually pitched the last 5 complete seasons over a guy who has missed two complete seasons in that same time span.

That's why I went with Carpenter over other guys, because in the 3 he did pitch he did enough to be considered with guys that pitched all 5 years. Halladay and Santana are also definatily in the discussion, I'm just putting Carpenter ahead of them for his postseason wins.

 

[Big Sexy]

In 2006 the Cardinals would have been dead in the water without Carpenter. In the 2006 postseason Carpenter went 3-1, if he wouldn't have been there the replacement starter would not have had the same record. In 2007 th Cardinals finished 7 games out in the NL Central, if Carpenter would have been healthy they would have made the playoffs, because I'm positive he would have won enough games to close that gap.



In 2008 the Cardinals only finished 4 games out of the Wild Card, and 11.5 games out of the Division, again if Carpenter would have been healthy that gap would have been closed and the Cardinals would have made the playoffs. I'm not going to argue that Holliday helped the Cardinals alot in 2009, since they were 52-46 before the trade, but again if Carpenter isn't healthy you can take away 17 wins and the Cardinals might not make the trade for Holliday and they definately don't make the playoffs.



That's why I went with Carpenter over other guys, because in the 3 he did pitch he did enough to be considered with guys that pitched all 5 years. Halladay and Santana are also definatily in the discussion, I'm just putting Carpenter ahead of them for his postseason wins.

I'm not denying the fact that the Cardinals would have done better with Carpenter in the two seasons he missed, just pointing out that him not being their wasn't the only reason they fell off in 2007 and they still did well in 2008 so he it's not like losing him was changing the team too significantly wins wise.

 

[Baller]

Well considering this is a debate over the last 5 years it has to be Halladay. Carpenter has been extremely unhealthy and him missing two years in my mind automatically drops him from the discussion. Nobody is better then Halladay, he has the most commanding stuff in the MLB, and the fact that he wins so many games with Toronto proves how great he is. Sorry, but this is clearly Halladays, Cardinal.

 

[Rhonda Rousey's Sports Bra]

Well considering this is a debate over the last 5 years it has to be Halladay. Carpenter has been extremely unhealthy and him missing two years in my mind automatically drops him from the discussion. Nobody is better then Halladay, he has the most commanding stuff in the MLB, and the fact that he wins so many games with Toronto proves how great he is. Sorry, but this is clearly Halladays, Cardinal.

That is totally fair to say, but in my mind what Carpenter did in his three years outweighs what Halladay did in 5, my biggest knock on Halladay is that he didn't win when it counted, the post season.

As some may know the Cardinals just finished a 4 game series with the Phillies today, after the game FSN did their own comparison of Halladay and Carpenter, and I'll be damned if they didn't say from 2005-present. Funny how that worked out. But they had an interesting stat, and before I even type what it was I want everyone to know that I'm not using two games to cement my arguement, I just thought it was interesting. Well the commentators were talking and the only other time Hallady faced the cardinals was back in 2005, he had a complete game win. I think he had 6 or 7 hits on him and 1 HR, Carpenter pitched the next day against the Blue Jays and threw a complete game 1 hitter only facing 28 batters. I just thought this was interesting and pertained to this thread. They also put up a few other stats, I can't remember them exactly but I do remember that Carpenter was 1st in the MLB in 3 of the six and Halladay was 1st in wins, these stats were from 2005 to present.

 

[Stormtrooper]

OK, it's pretty obvious that nobody is gonna give Mariano Rivera the credit he deserves for this discussion. Now it's time to add another name to this list. This man has won a World Series, single-handedly carried a sub-par team to the playoffs, won a Cy Young award, consistantly throws 200+ innings (so no bitching about a lack of innings this time), and PLAYED IN ALL 5 YEARS. This man is Carsten Charles Sabathia.

During his 5 year span we are debating, he has an 82-46 record, with a 3.27 ERA. In 2007, CC went 19-7 with a 3.21 ERA in 241 innings, en route to winning the Cy Young award, by leading his not so great Indians to the ALCS.

In 2008, CC was traded to the Milwaukee Brewers in early July, and from July 8th to the end of the season, he went 11-2 in 17 starts, with a 1.65 ERA. In those 17 starts, he threw 7 complete games and 130.2 innings. During the last week of the season, when the Brewers were battling for a Wild Card spot, CC Sabathia pitched 3 games on short rest, winning 2 of the games and sending the Brew Crew to their first playoff berth since 1982. This dominance led CC to placing 6th in the NL MVP race and 5th in the NL Cy Young race, something unheard of for a guy who only spent half of the season in that league. It is arguable that this is the most dominating pitching performance since Bob Gibson in 1968.

In 2009, CC signed with the New York Yankees, and immediately changed the locker room. The 2009 team was a looser, more fun-loving TEAM then the Yankees had been in recent years (which was a knock on them, and something people pointed to when they got eliminated each year), and CC was one of the main reasons for it. His record at the end of the year was 19-7, and he had a 3.37 in 230 innings. He finished 4th in the Cy Young race, but more importantly led his team to the World Series, thanks to a dominant 2009 postseason, where the team went 4-1 (he went 3-1), with a 1.98 ERA. 2 of those games (game 4 of the World Series and ALCS) were on short rest, and he was excellent in one, and dominant in the other. The one loss came in game 1 of the World Series, when Cliff Lee threw a complete game 6 hitter, and CC gave up 2 solo homers to Chase Utley.

I can't believe it took me this long to make a case for Carsten Charles Sabathia, but better late then never.

 

[The People's Peep]

You know Stormtrooper, you are one my favorite people on here. I completely agree with you on Mariano. everyone shoots him down because he's a closer. But the truth is, his stuff, not his stats, make him the best pitcher over the last 5 years. no one can hit the one pitch he throws. if thats not the definition of domination, then i dont know what is.

Also, i was just going to mention CC. All he does is go a guaranteed 7 or 8 innings every outing. Over the last 3 years, he has put up at least 230 innings a season. If he played in the national league like he did for half a season, I dont doubt that he wouldve won the two Cy's that Lincecum won. During his stint with the brewers, he was 11-2 in 17 games, with 7 complete games and 1.65 ERA. Imagine if he played there year round?

 

[The Brain]

It seems like such a long time ago that I first posted in this thread for Halladay. There’s been a lot of interesting discussion since then. I’m sticking with Halladay. Let’s look at main competition.

Tim Lincecum and Chris Carpenter are both great choices. I didn’t pick Lincecum because he didn’t even join the big leagues until 2007. If this debate was about the last three years I would have picked him. I respect the argument that what he accomplished in three years is good enough to include him in a debate about the last five. In my opinion if we’re going to debate the best pitcher of the last five years they should have pitched the last five years. This rules out Lincecum. This also rules out Carpenter who missed 2007 and 2008 due to injury.

I don’t like the argument about making it to the postseason. Obviously it’s important as it’s the main goal for all these guys, but there’s only so much one man can do. Seven time MVP Barry Bonds never won a World Series. Neither did Ted Williams, Carl Yastrzemski, Ernie Banks, Ken Griffey Jr. and other great stars. Halladay usually did pretty well against the AL East. It’s not his fault the Jays couldn’t overtake the Yankees or Red Sox.

I hope Blue Cardinal 87 from St. Louis isn't playing favorites here. Just kidding man. I've read enough from you that I respect your opinion. Just had to give you a little shot there.

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

Stormtrooper is as right as right can be. Mariano Rivera is the best pitcher in the game.

I'm not just saying this because I'm a Yankees fan, I'm saying it because he has been so dominant throughout his career, even in his older age. If you take a look at his ERA from the past couple of years, you see a huge amount of consistency and dominance. In his entire career, up to where we are in the 2010 season, Mo Rivera has an ERA of 2.24. Considering he is a closer who usually only pitches one inning at a time, and sometimes will blow the game, thats a pretty amazing ERA. In his career, he has been a 10X All-Star. Name me a pitcher who in 16 years, has been a 10X All-Star, and is a relief pitcher. Chances are you can't and won't.

In the Post-Season, he has an ERA of .74. I cant even think of a pitcher more lights-out in the post season than Mariano Rivera. He's also 8-1. Given that one loss blew the world series for the Yankees in 2001, thats pretty damn good.

To think that Mo was signed as an Amateur Free-Agent, never in my life have I seen a pitcher as good as Mariano Rivera. While he isn't the leader in saves, he will be shortly. Do you know why? Because of his dominance. You step into the box against him and you're pretty much going to be punched out. With a Cutter that's better than his Fastball, How can you not think Mariano Rivera is the best pitcher in baseball?

 

[The Brain]

How can you not think Mariano Rivera is the best pitcher in baseball?

Because he is a relief pitcher. If he truly was the best pitcher in baseball why wouldn’t the Yankees want to use him for more than one inning? Nobody grows up wishing to be a relief pitcher. They grow up wanting to be a starter and if they end up in relief it’s because they couldn’t cut it as a starter. The save is one of the most overrated stats in sports. Sometimes it’s so easy to get a save. If you’re team is up by three runs and you pitch one inning without blowing a nice lead you get rewarded with a save. Someone could come in with a three run lead, walk a couple guys, give up a couple hits and runs, and still come away with a save. I’m not saying this happens with Rivera; I’m just pointing out how overrated the save stat is.

If Rivera was the best pitcher in baseball he would start. Because he only has to pitch one inning his strengths shine and weaknesses are hidden. He’s unquestionably a great closer, but what if he had to face a lineup three times a day? I think the hitters would make the adjustments. Roy Halladay has just about as many innings pitched in the last five years as Rivera has over his whole career. If Halladay was staked with a lead every time he took the mound he’d probably be approaching 300 wins already. Relief pitchers should probably have their own thread because they just don’t compare to the great starters.

I just want to be clear I am not bashing Rivera here. I think he’s a great closer and will end up in the hall of fame. He excels at his role, but it’s not the same role as a starter.

 

[Dr. Stinger A. Zoidberg]

Because he is a relief pitcher. If he truly was the best pitcher in baseball why wouldn’t the Yankees want to use him for more than one inning? Nobody grows up wishing to be a relief pitcher. They grow up wanting to be a starter and if they end up in relief it’s because they couldn’t cut it as a starter. The save is one of the most overrated stats in sports. Sometimes it’s so easy to get a save. If you’re team is up by three runs and you pitch one inning without blowing a nice lead you get rewarded with a save. Someone could come in with a three run lead, walk a couple guys, give up a couple hits and runs, and still come away with a save. I’m not saying this happens with Rivera; I’m just pointing out how overrated the save stat is.

If Rivera was the best pitcher in baseball he would start. Because he only has to pitch one inning his strengths shine and weaknesses are hidden. He’s unquestionably a great closer, but what if he had to face a lineup three times a day? I think the hitters would make the adjustments. Roy Halladay has just about as many innings pitched in the last five years as Rivera has over his whole career. If Halladay was staked with a lead every time he took the mound he’d probably be approaching 300 wins already. Relief pitchers should probably have their own thread because they just don’t compare to the great starters.

I just want to be clear I am not bashing Rivera here. I think he’s a great closer and will end up in the hall of fame. He excels at his role, but it’s not the same role as a starter.

So he's not the best because he's a relief pitcher, and no kid dreams of being a relief pitcher? What a STUPID reason. The reason the Yankees dont use him for more than one inning is because they want to preserve him. That's why theyre trying to groom Joba at the moment. Yes, sometimes the Yankees will put him in for 2 innings, but only to preserve the lead. Sorry other teams are too stupid to realize that a closer CLOSES the game. That 1 to 2 innings at most.

As for you other point, how do you know a kid doesnt want to grow up to be a relief pitcher? What just because you, and your buddies didnt want to be? Once again, stupid. Im sure many young Yankees fans who grow up watching Rivera, who Idolize Rivera, will want to be just like him. A CLOSER.

 

[Stormtrooper]

Because he is a relief pitcher. If he truly was the best pitcher in baseball why wouldn’t the Yankees want to use him for more than one inning? Nobody grows up wishing to be a relief pitcher. They grow up wanting to be a starter and if they end up in relief it’s because they couldn’t cut it as a starter. The save is one of the most overrated stats in sports. Sometimes it’s so easy to get a save. If you’re team is up by three runs and you pitch one inning without blowing a nice lead you get rewarded with a save. Someone could come in with a three run lead, walk a couple guys, give up a couple hits and runs, and still come away with a save. I’m not saying this happens with Rivera; I’m just pointing out how overrated the save stat is.

If Rivera was the best pitcher in baseball he would start. Because he only has to pitch one inning his strengths shine and weaknesses are hidden. He’s unquestionably a great closer, but what if he had to face a lineup three times a day? I think the hitters would make the adjustments. Roy Halladay has just about as many innings pitched in the last five years as Rivera has over his whole career. If Halladay was staked with a lead every time he took the mound he’d probably be approaching 300 wins already. Relief pitchers should probably have their own thread because they just don’t compare to the great starters.

I just want to be clear I am not bashing Rivera here. I think he’s a great closer and will end up in the hall of fame. He excels at his role, but it’s not the same role as a starter.

1. If Mariano Rivera had to fact the same lineup 3 times in a day, he would be Roy Halladay-esque. If a hitter can't make the adjustment in 15 years, why would he make an adjustment in 3 innings? His cutter is the most dominating pitch in baseball today, and you would be hard pressed to find a more dominating pitch ever. Hitters know what is coming, and they still can't hit it. There have been rare times where Mariano (as a Closer) faced a hitter more then once per game, and hitters weren't able to adjust.

2. I know you say you aren't bashing Rivera, but you are actually bashing not just him, but the entire role of Closer. You act like the Closer is some lowly position, that is where "people who couldn't cut it as starters go." In actuality, it is actually one of the most important roles in baseball today.

The 2009 postseason is a good view at the importance of the Closer position. Of the 8 teams in the 2009 Postseason, 7 of the 8 closers came in and blew a lead. The one who didn't? Mariano Rivera, and the Yankees won the World Series because when he was given a chance to keep his team in the game, he got it done. Everyone else didn't.

 

[The Brain]

So he's not the best because he's a relief pitcher, and no kid dreams of being a relief pitcher? What a STUPID reason. The reason the Yankees dont use him for more than one inning is because they want to preserve him. That's why theyre trying to groom Joba at the moment. Yes, sometimes the Yankees will put him in for 2 innings, but only to preserve the lead. Sorry other teams are too stupid to realize that a closer CLOSES the game. That 1 to 2 innings at most.

As for you other point, how do you know a kid doesnt want to grow up to be a relief pitcher? What just because you, and your buddies didnt want to be? Once again, stupid. Im sure many young Yankees fans who grow up watching Rivera, who Idolize Rivera, will want to be just like him. A CLOSER.

Since you asked, I'll answer again. He is not the best pitcher in baseball because he is a relief pitcher. He may be the best relief pitcher in baseball, but not the best pitcher. If he was as good as the best starters he would be a starter. When a guy goes to the pen it's because he doesn't have what it takes to be a starter. I have no problem with Mo. If there were a separate thread for relief pitchers he would have my support and I would point out everything that is great about him. I'm not going to do it when comparing him to the best starters.

 

[The Brain]

2. I know you say you aren't bashing Rivera, but you are actually bashing not just him, but the entire role of Closer. You act like the Closer is some lowly position, that is where "people who couldn't cut it as starters go." In actuality, it is actually one of the most important roles in baseball today.

I don't want to say the closer position is a lowly position. I just think it's overrated. There are constantly guys coming out of nowhere to become a closer and getting 40+ saves. A couple years later they are forgotten. This is obviously not the case with Rivera, but it does happen fairly often with closers. One thing you should consider is that when a closer comes into the game his team is already winning. His job is to get through one inning without screwing up. I have respect for closers. I had to suffer through some bad closers and plent of blown saves over the years. I just don't think they're as important as starters, and I do think a lot of relief pitchers are relief pitchers because they can't cut it as starters. Again if this was a thread about relief pitchers I'd be singing the praises of Mariano Rivera.