Austin Region, Third Round, Ultimate Submission: (2) Kurt Angle vs. (10)Antonio Inoki

Discussion in 'Austin Region' started by klunderbunker, Apr 13, 2016.

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Who Wins This Match?

  1. Kurt Angle

  2. Antonio Inoki

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  1. klunderbunker

    klunderbunker Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House

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    This is a third round match in the Austin Region and it is an Ultimate Submission match. It will be held at the Toyota Center in Houston, Texas

    [​IMG]

    Rules: There is a thirty minute time limit and the most submission victories wins. There are no disqualifications but assume neither will use weapons.

    [​IMG]

    #2. Kurt Angle

    VS.

    [​IMG]

    #10. Antonio Inoki

    Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.


    Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
     
    #1
  2. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I've researched Inoki and am well versed in his history. How over he was(still is) in Japan and his affinity for mat wrestling. He's a legit stretcher and could probably take most guys in the business in a shoot. Angle, however, is not most guys. He's an olympic gold medalist, so Inoki ain't taking him in a shoot or a submission match.

    This is right up both guys allies, but I think Angle would come out on top. Angle was mega over in the WWE and in a short amount of time, became one of the major stars in the business. He even went to TNA and added legitimacy to them and helped them with business.

    I know what Inoki accomplished in Japan and his success somewhat in the states, but Angle has thebigger appeal world wide and is a better mat wrestler IMO.

    Vote Angle.
     
    #2
  3. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Both of these wrestlers were submission specialists. Both of these wrestlers were legit. Both of these men were highly accomplished pro wrestlers, but anything Kurt Angle did, Antonio Inoki has done better.

    For example. Kurt Angle defeated Steve Austin. Antonio Inoki defeated Hulk Hogan. Kurt Angle defeated The Rock. Antonio Inoki defeated Ric Flair. Kurt Angle defeated The Big Show. Antonio defeated Andre the Giant. Kurt Angle defeated Sting. Antonio Inoki defeated Sting back when he was still relevant.

    From a kayfabe perspective Inoki hardly ever lost matches. When he did it was to further an angle. Kurt Angle on the other hand lost plenty. You could easily place the names that Kurt Angle has defeated up against the names that Antonio Inoki has defeated and Angle's list just would not compare. In fact Inoki has defeated two prior Olympic gold medalists in the past in Wim Ruska and Shota Chochishvili, the latter by submission. So the argument of "Inoki never fought anyone like Kurt Angle before" is dumb.

    But lets dig a little deeper here...

    Accolades. Kurt Angle has been in TNA longer than he was in WWE at this point. He's won the TNA world title half a dozen times if I recall. But for all those reigns business in the promotion has never improved. TNA is still a regional promotion. Inoki took the world title from the National Wrestling Federation, a small promotion in the States, back to Japan with him. After holding it for 10 years it became the top prize in the country. Inoki created huge gates in NJPW with his feuds with Tiger Jeet Singh, Riki Choshu, and Stan Hansen to name a few. Then you look at all the World and National tournaments that Inoki has won. 12 of them from what I count. Tournaments being a huge source of income for Japanese wrestling promotions, similar to the KOTR in its glory days. When Inoki lost any of his titles, it meant something. usually a huge payday for NJPW in the future when Inoki would get his rematch. When Kurt Angle lost the TNA title to James Storm who held it for about a week before losing it, what did that accomplish? What about his 15 day WWE title reign in 2001, where he beat Stone Cold and then dropped it right back. What did that accomplish? Inoki was easily the more decorated of the two.

    Popularity. In Japan Inoki was king. Period. But he also was quite popular in the States. He has a winning record in the Northeast and Vince Sr. awarded him a title made especially for him. The World League Martial Arts title. And since this hypothetical match is being fought in Texas, Inoki won the top territorial title in Texas in the 60's back when the Von Erichs still controlled it. So the location doesn't do a thing to help Kurt Angle. Inoki has stared in movies, appeared in manga and anime, and had plenty of merchandising appeal. Kurt Angle mostly piggybacked off the WWE promotional machine. Over a billion people saw the Inoki/Ali fight. I doubt that many total people have ever seen a Kurt Angle match.

    Overall influence. Antonio Inoki was many things: Legendary wrestler. International icon. Politician. MMA innovator. WWE Hall of Famer. He trained many future superstars as well as building the foundation for pro wrestling in Japan. As a politician he was able to use pro wrestling to promote peace in isolationist areas such as North Korea, China, and the former Soviet Union. Kurt Angle was just an upper mid carder/occasional title holder on the level of Big Show, Jericho, and Mick Foley that we remember from the Attitude Era 15 years ago. But his influence is nothing compared to Inoki, who is a true bonafide legend in every sense of the word. I don't see waves of people lining up to be slapped in the face by Kurt Angle.

    So for the TL;DR version: Inoki was far more accomplished and dominant in kafabe and has all the tools needed to best Kurt Angle. Inoki was a far better champion and was far more popular around the globe at his peak.

    Inoki should win here.
     
    #3
  4. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Inoki has defeated 2 former Olympic gold medalists in the past. One of whom was by submission. Explain to me exactly how Inoki just doesn't have the pedigree to defeat Kurt Angle again?

    The Inoki/Ali fight was seen by over a billion people on TV alone. That's not counting the millions and millions of fans that paid to see Inoki fight live all over the world. I think you really need to rethink the gravity of "worldwide appeal" here. Because it certainly isn't Angle.
     
    #4
  5. Spidercanrana

    Spidercanrana Should've Reinstated The Fox
    Staff Member Moderator E-Fed Mod

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    The Ali/Inoki fight was legendary...for being absolute shit. It pissed off those half a billion fans (which different reports say it was more like a few million), and is a huge reason why we don't get to see boxer vs. wrestler main events anymore. Speaking of, that match was also on a double bill that featured UNDEFEATED Andre The Giant in his prime against Chuck "That Guy That Inspired Rocky" Wepner (Which also arguably influenced Rocky III's boxer vs. wrestler, which in turn made Hulk Hogan a star). Not exactly fair to say Inoki is a draw while ignoring the people he shared that card with, including the greatest boxer of all time. That and it was never billed as a wrestling event, but a real fight. So why is it mentioned in every argument for Inoki in a professional wrestling match? A novelty match is more accurate here.

    Kurt Angle has fought and won Ultimate Submission Matches. This stipulation isn't old, so of course Inoki has never competed in one. Angle has the experience needed in this gimmick match, which yes, should factor in heavily in voting decisions. Why else even have the gimmick round? Inoki won't be an easy competitor by any means. He has plenty of submission moves in his arsenal to give Angle a hard time. But Angle prevails. This isn't the territories and Angle isn't Steven Williams. Area still matters. Both men fought the best wrestlers in their primes. I won't factor in drawing power since to me that's the most subjective argument one can possibly make and ignores who all else is on the match card, what is vogue in pop culture, etc.

    Kurt Angle won every individual title in his rookie year, all recognized by WWE. He has a list of accomplishments that do surpass Antonio Inoki. His charisma as a goofball or a killing machine are unrivaled. He is the better performer. He is the better wrestler.

    Vote Angle.
     
    #5
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  6. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    You could argue, and I'm not gonna argue because I don't like to argue, that those people paid to see Ali fight. That Ali was the draw. You could have thrown Ali in with anyone from that time period and he would draw. Hell throw Ali in with a stuffed teddy bear and people would pay to see it. Ali had that kind of drawing power.

    And drawing power is very subjective. Big draws don't necessarily mean good. Michael Bay movies draw tons of money and are generally regarded as being shit.
     
    #6
  7. The Brain

    The Brain King Of The Ring

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    I am leaning toward Inoki here. I don't think this match would end 1-0 so for Angle to win he would have to make Inoki submit at least twice. If it was just a submission match I might give Angle the advantage but the Ultimate Submission gives Inoki the advantage. I just think Angle is more likely than Inoki to tap twice. I'm not saying that is my final decision but for now I'm thinking Inoki.
     
    #7
  8. Tastycles

    Tastycles Turn Bayley heel

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    Angle once made the Undertaker, a man whose gimmick is that he is impervious to pain, tap out. The fact Taker pinned him at the same time is irrelevant here as pins don't count. In my mind, that tells me that Angle is more than capable of making Inoki tap out a couple of times.

    Next we have this ridiculous idea that Inoki is a household name or was ever a household name outside of Japan because he sat on his arse and did a Cossack dance against Muhammed Ali. I can tell you now, and you all should know, if Duane Gill had a match with Muhammed Ali, it would have drawn huge. If someone with legit credentials like Ken Shamrock or Dan Severn had done it all the moreso, but if an American gold medallist wrestler had done it? I'm sure it would have drawn more.

    For me this is a battle, but I think it is one that Angle would ultimately win, and I do think that the location may play a factor in that.
     
    #8
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  9. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    Ultimately, I agree with your argument Tasty, but when Angle made 'Taker tap it was his far less supernatural, more human biker gimmick. I hate this argument when used for Angle because Deadman 'Taker wouldn't have tapped.
     
    #9
  10. Rainbow Yaz

    Rainbow Yaz Sing about me, I'm dying of thirst
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    Totally off topic, and not to nitpick, but do you consider current Undertaker Deadman Taker? Because he just tapped at SummerSlam.
     
    #10
  11. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I consider current 'Taker a hybrid between deadman and biker, which he is. Also, he's currently a run down, over the hill version of that hybrid. If that match with Lesnar had happened between 04-10, he wouldn't have tapped. Just like if that situation with Angle had have happened between 90-99 or 04-when Angle left, he wouldn't have tapped.

    I'm just saying that that 'Taker argument isn't as impressive as it's made out to be when it's put in context. I still feel Angle would win, though.

    Vote Angle.
     
    #11
  12. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    What in the fuck does any of this bullshit have to do with an Ultimate Submission match?

    This round, and this match specifically, are all about their abilities in the ring, and whether they are better than their opponent. Angle has collected a who's who list of ankles in his career, and before his professional wrestling career even started, he won a gold medal with a broken neck. If he can win legit wrestling matches while needing more surgeries than I can remember off the top of my head, then I don't think it would matter how much of a "shoot" fighter Inoki is.

    I'm not denying Inoki's legendary status. I'm denying that he could make Angle tap, more than Angle could make him tap.
     
    #12
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  13. ShinChan

    ShinChan Gone. For. Good.

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    This post just made my choice change for a good reason.

    I was gonna support Mr. Angle but after this influential post, I am swayed towards Mr. Inoki.

    I also think that Angle's long stint in TNA did worsen the situation for him in this match. Had he been in WWE, He might go over but as he wasn't, I would go for Mr. Inoki.

    Inoki here.
     
    #13
  14. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    You're the victim of a "word fort". Ech made one point relevant to this match, and it was the comparison of opponents that these two have faced. It all falls apart when you see that Ruska won his gold for judo, and then was never a great professional wrestler the way Kurt Angle was (was, for the sake of his "retirement"), and then you look up Shota, and see that he originally defeated Inoki by knockout, while also having a gold in judo, and not wrestling.

    Submission wrestling lends itself to being on the mat, and out-maneuvering your opponent. Angle proved that he could do that better than anyone, and has had a better professional wrestling career, against better opponents, than either of the guys Ech cited in his post.
     
    #14
  15. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    No matter when, or what his attire is, Taker is always built up as the same machine. Bandanas do not make him more or less likely to tap out. Two men have done this & each time it was impressive.
    Moving on...

    Inoki puts up a fight & it probably stays 1-1 till the last few minutes. Kurt takes the straps down & goes in for the kill. Those long legs will be ripe for a grapevined ankle lock & Inoki taps.
     
    #15
  16. Hollywood Naitch

    Hollywood Naitch The current reigning and defending

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    Well put, you've said everything I'd have put. Inoki would certainly get a submission from Angle (he's beaten Olympians before), but I can't see Kurt tapping out twice. I reckon it's an crossface chickenwing (which he learned from Bob Backlund early in his WWE career) that gets Angle a second submission and the win with seconds remaining.

    Winner: Kurt Angle
     
    #16
  17. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    If you really think that ABA 'Taker was billed or even performed as tough as Deadman 'Taker then you've lost all credibility IMO. Also, I never said that they were not impressive, just not as impressive as they made out to be and they're not. Had they had happened between the time frames I mentioned, then they would've been huge accomplishments.

    Vote Angle.
     
    #17
  18. enviousdominous

    enviousdominous Behold my diction

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    I'm the type of person who often find's a factor that some may view as arbitrary and stubbornly use it as the main principle for my decision, this time seems no different.

    These two men are dead even with me when it comes to who would start showing fatigue first. Both men have easily held it together in matches that went up to an hour in length.

    This is a really tough one. Kurt Angle is a submission master, who's been submitted. He's tapped out to Brock Lesnar, John Cena and (though not decisively) to Chris Benoit. While those opponents are no slouches, it still shows that Kurt can become a victim of his own strategy.

    Antonio Inoki, to my knowledge, has never submitted to anyone in a match. However; he's never had his resolve tested by a two time NCAA Champion and two time Olympic gold medalist.

    I'm going with Kurt Angle on this one. Kurt has a level of intensity that can endure the worst Inoki could throw at him and still manage to put the hurt on Inoki in the final seconds of this match. Vote Kurt Angle.
     
    #18
  19. nightmare

    nightmare ...7, 8, Better stay up late...

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    Kurt making Taker tap was impressive, just as it should be because it was a big deal. When someone who is basically immortal in the eyes of kayfabe taps for the first time, it is certainly a big deal. Kayfabe cares not for age & while Deadman Taker is a force, you could say that ABA Taker was billed as a tougher, no nonsense striker who started to show his grappling submission game to add a different threat of offense. I fail to see how you can not agree how big of a deal him tapping was.

    Kurt is that damn good & if he can make Taker tap, Inoki is screwed. We are on the same side of this match, but your dismissal of the above is crazy talk.
     
    #19
  20. SSJPhenom

    SSJPhenom The Phenom of WZ

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    I'm not dismissing that he made 'Taker tap, I'm simply saying that a prime deadman 'Taker wouldn't have tapped. If you really believe that ABA 'Taker was billed tougher than deadman 'Taker then I really don't know what to say besides you really need to go back and watch deadman 'Taker, especially when he was put into submissions. He was doing things like breaking the Sharpshooter and what not, sitting up after every knockdown. I'm simply saying using that 'Taker argument isn't that big of a deal when you consider it was ABA human 'Taker, who regularly screamed out in pain while in submissions and such. He wasn't billed or booked anywhere near the demi god immortal deadman 'Taker. Watch their match in 2006 at No Way Out then. By your logic, Angle should've been able to force 'Taker to tap there. No, he didn't. Every time he was put in the ankle lock, he broke it and it took a roll up pin for Angle to beat him because he couldn't put him away with his finishers. If he had of made 'Taker tap in that match, that would've been a big deal.

    The argument for Angle shouldn't be that he made 'Taker tap, it should be that he made Hogan tap cause you're right. Kayfabe cares not for age and what not but it does care for character. 'Taker's character when he tapped to Angle was different but Hogan's wasn't. That's the real impressive feat.

    Let's just agree to disagree.

    Vote Angle.
     
    #20
  21. Pay Per Ghost

    Pay Per Ghost What they f*ck happened in the thread section here

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    I don't know here to be honest. Inoki was a BIG deal in Japan and out of respect was put over here, top stars put him over there as well.

    I have always found fault with the Inoki/Ali line up. Its like Big Show and Floyd at Mania 24. It doesn't matter who Mayweather fights, it will be a marquee match. Inoki has some big wins and I kinda came in here thinking he would take this.


    On the fence for now.
     
    #21
  22. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    Well excuse me for taking this tournament seriously and actually comparing the two guys on a more objective level, like how we're suppose to do instead of just making up whatever bullshit subjective argument comes to mind.

    Inoki is better than Kurt Angle. His list of conquered opponents easily trumps Angle's.

    I don't doubt it. Never said he hasn't. But then again so has Inoki.

    This isn't a shoot match. I brought up the fact that Inoki has beaten two former Olympic gold medalists to counter the incredibly dumb "Angle is a gold medalist so he wins hurr durr" argument which has been repeatedly peddled, even in this very match. The fact that Angle is a top notch freestyle grappler would not give him any advantage over a guy like Inoki at all.

    Kurt has tapped out several times before. One of those being to Chris Benoit. I cannot recall a single time Antonio Inoki has tapped. And if he has I'm sure it was to a much higher caliber opponent than Chris Benoit. And if kayfabe voting means anything then Inoki, the guy than was undefeated for nearly a decade, would easily go over.
     
    #22
  23. JJYanks121

    JJYanks121 The Mouth of the South Shore

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    Let's cut the nonsense. Angle gets way too high a seed every year and everyone drools over his "great matches" and "legitimacy" as an Olympian. This is a kayfabe tournament, so true legitimacy means nothing. Being a draw does though.

    Angle was never THE guy in WWE. Actually, he was never close. He was the guy you put on top when you were waiting for someone else to take the spot. Plus, he often played the heel. Heels tap. Inoki is the bigger worldwide star, is underrated in this tournament, and deserves to go over. Plus, he does know his way around a submission. This should be an easy one. It's Inoki.
     
    #23
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  24. NSL

    NSL Life's A Bitch, And Then You Mosh

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    I already poked holes in the rest, in reply to Kapu blindly following your word fort. As for the stuff I highlighted, and asked what it had to do with this particular match...I'd like to know what drawing power has to do, with who wins a match where the objective is to maim your opponent (essentially). Drawing power, or anything else you named in that section.

    And, Inoki may not have tapped, but he was knocked out, which would still count for a win in this kind of match, and a pretty definitive one, since he really wouldn't be waking up for a second KO/submission from Angle.
     
    #24
  25. Bernkastel

    Bernkastel Reaper of Miracles
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    What "word fort" LOL. Everything I had to say was a fair comparison of both men and their careers. I had already covered the aspect of the stipulation in detail before that. This isn't some tournament where we just make up ridiculous arguments that aren't rooted in anything other than bullshit.

    This is a pro wrestling match. Not a shoot. The hypothetical promoter would logically book the bigger star that could make him the most money in the future, over. And that was Inoki. Easily.

    KO'ed from blunt force, by Hulk Hogan no less. That's not the same as passing out from the pain of a painful submission. I am far more inclined to believe that Inoki could get Angle to pass out or tap than vice versa.

    Also Inoki. Undefeated for years. Rarely lost matches. Kurt Angle? Lost a whole lot more in comparison.

    All logic that isn't made up bullshit points to Inoki winning this match.
     
    #25
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