50 Dead, 53 Injured in mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub

I guess that causes confusion because a lot of people subscribe to a "because I like something I can never say anything negative about it ever and its great and cures every problem ever"

I can support gun legislation and figuring out that no one needs a fucking automatic weapon while also acknowledging that it most likely wouldn't have done shit to stop this, and its high time to stop shying away from being frank and unflinching when looking at terror threats and muslim extremism instead of looking for inanimate scapegoats to blame so that you make sure not to upset anyone.
 
I guess that causes confusion because a lot of people subscribe to a "because I like something I can never say anything negative about it ever and its great and cures every problem ever"

I can support gun legislation and figuring out that no one needs a fucking automatic weapon while also acknowledging that it most likely wouldn't have done shit to stop this, and its high time to stop shying away from being frank and unflinching when looking at terror threats and muslim extremism instead of looking for inanimate scapegoats to blame so that you make sure not to upset anyone.

I can get your school of thought there. To an outsider such as myself understandably banning guns seems like a big step in stopping this and I couldn't understand why anyone would think otherwise.

I don't say that is the sole reason though I understand the Muslim extremists are a huge issue and I have no issue saying it.
 
I see what you are saying. I agree with it. But as i am so often told, the world isnt so black and white. Even though this was an attack by an extremist muslim it was still a gun massacre.

It was not even an ISIS attack (sure they'll claim it but they had little to do with it)
 
There are good points being made on both sides of the argument here. With regards to this isolated incident though, I agree with Norcal; gun control laws wouldn't have necessarily stopped this from happening; after all, the nightclub was a gun free zone; which basically eliminated any kind of vigilante retaliation.

I think more people need to be less scared about challenging the Islamic doctrine; it is a political ideology as much as it is a religious movement at this point, if not, more so an ideology. You're not insulting Muslims by doing this, you're merely drawing light onto their highly contradictory belief system. Like I said, most Muslims are able to differentiate the right from the wrong from their doctrine and integrate into western civilisation whilst maintaining their faith, but what we need to draw attention to is the ultra-conservative branches (primarily Salafi and Wahhabi) that are creating the most misery in the world, more so than any other ideology on a global scale.

Basically, stop being cultural relativists. I'm all for the free exchange of ideas, but that means that all ideas have the same right to be scrutinised. Religion is not a shield to protect these.
 
There are good points being made on both sides of the argument here. With regards to this isolated incident though, I agree with Norcal; gun control laws wouldn't have necessarily stopped this from happening; after all, the nightclub was a gun free zone; which basically eliminated any kind of vigilante retaliation.

It would have stopped him buying the gun though. Fuck sake.
 
It's hard for people to admit some problems do not have a proper solution. A mass shooting is one of those problems.

I mean, there are solutions - ban all private gun ownership. Never going to happen. Same goes for Islamic terrorism in the U.S. - deport all people of Islamic faith (just to be safe) and ban entry for anyone from a Muslim state. Can (or should) we actually do that? Of course not. Outside of those extreme measures, which will never happen, there's really no solution. It's unfortunate, but that's reality.
 
At least try something. It's the same story week after week after week after week.

Give everyone a musket and be done with it.
 
To add I've genuinely seen people say "well without guns he could have used a knife".


Take some skill to knife so many people.

I also am very much aware of how bad bombs are in the US as well but they hardly get anywehre near the press.
 
Gun control is just a buzzword. Nobody has ever come up with a realistic solution, and nobody ever will.

The most tragic thing about these incidents is the way everybody politicizes the tragedy to further their half cocked and poorly thought out agendas. The bodies weren't even cold yet before dipshits were screaming "We must get rid of guns!". It's. Not. That. Simple.
 
It's hard for people to admit some problems do not have a proper solution. A mass shooting is one of those problems.

I mean, there are solutions - ban all private gun ownership. Never going to happen. Same goes for Islamic terrorism in the U.S. - deport all people of Islamic faith (just to be safe) and ban entry for anyone from a Muslim state. Can (or should) we actually do that? Of course not. Outside of those extreme measures, which will never happen, there's really no solution. It's unfortunate, but that's reality.

does anything have a proper solution? people are creative, they will find a way to get around legislation. The idea is to make it harder and harder for them so its very infrequent
 
Gun control is just a buzzword. Nobody has ever come up with a realistic solution, and nobody ever will.

The most tragic thing about these incidents is the way everybody politicizes the tragedy to further their half cocked and poorly thought out agendas. The bodies weren't even cold yet before dipshits were screaming "We must get rid of guns!". It's. Not. That. Simple.

Well, if you guys could stop shooting to kill for a while, maybe we'd have time for the latest batch of tragic deaths to 'get cold' before the next one happens and once again it's 'too soon', 'politicising their deaths'.

dipshits were screaming "We must get rid of guns!". It's. Not. That. Simple.

And I am so sick of this bullshit specifically. This is not what the gun control argument is, Obama doesn't want to 'TAKE OUR GUNS', but hey, if the stupid among us want to believe that, can they at least do it quietly and leave the grown ups to speak.
 
Well, if you guys could stop shooting to kill for a while, maybe we'd have time for the latest batch of tragic deaths to 'get cold' before the next one happens and once again it's 'too soon', 'politicising their deaths'.

It's not so much the actual politicians doing the soapboxing, they're smarter than that. It's more the average citizens on social media. Twitter and Facebook are pretty much unbearable until people get back to posting the mundane shit and clickbait bullshit.


And I am so sick of this bullshit specifically. This is not what the gun control argument is, Obama doesn't want to 'TAKE OUR GUNS', but hey, if the stupid among us want to believe that, can they at least do it quietly and leave the grown ups to speak.

I know Obama doesn't want to take anybody's guns. His plan is more stringent background checks and maybe a waiting period before you take possession of your purchased gun. That's actually might be feasible, but it's going to be met with a lot of resistance in Washington. The NRA has a shitload of power.
 
Do we even now through which means this guy obtained his guns? If he obtained them illegally I don't see how stricter gun laws would have necessary prevented this.
 
The more that comes out about this guy, the more I'm convinced that he is mentally ill and has been slowly decompensating for the past several years (he's the right age for it).

Perhaps I should restate for the 50th time that I could give a flying motherfuck I any civilian ever handles a firearm ever again, and certainly NOT automatic assault rifles, and the second amendment is irrelevant. Ive said these things many times.

I just do not feel thisis remotely the key issue in this situation, and people should not be distracting themselves with it because they are too afraid to offend people with the truth.

I'm curious: in your opinion, what should the proper response be? What type of change should the public be demanding after this situation?

Just like they did with the Boston bomber. Besides, you turn up focus on terror "watch list" people and then people cry about discrimination. "OH JUST BECAUSE MY FAMILY IS FROM AFGHANISTAN AND HAS PRAISED THE TALIBAN AND I HAVE CONNECTIONS TO SOMEONE WHK DIED IN A TERROR PLOT YOU TAKE MY RIGHTS??? YOU SURVEIL ME BECAUSE I BOUGHT THE INGREDIENTS OF A BOMB?"

That sounds a lot more like a conservative than a liberal.

I would point out, though, that it's harder to stop these lone wolves that don't have any true terror ties. Boston, San Bernadino, and now Orlando were all attacks carried out by a lone wolf.

I think that being quick to claim that it is an act of terrorism as the media likes to define it and saying it was "an attack against all of us" as I just heard it reported does nothing but trivialize the targeted nature of it as a hate crime.

Regardless of whether or not the guy was affiliated with ISIS or a terror organization or if it was influenced by radical Islam at all (it probably was), it's a terror attack. It's also a hate crime, but it's still a terror attack.

It would have stopped him from buying it legally.

If it is illegal to buy/sell AR-15's supply will go down. That will make them harder to find, more difficult to acquire, and more expensive. Furthermore, the government would not just sit back and hope that nobody is selling illegal weapons: they'd be monitoring that type of stuff, doing everything they can to make sure that type of weaponry doesn't get into the hands of people who shouldn't be buying it.

So first this random ass guy from Orlando with no meaningful connection to ISIS would have to find someone or somewhere selling assault rifles illegally that has flown under the radar of the government, and then he'd have to have the cash for it.

As opposed to right now where he can just walk into a gun store, buy a gun with no questions asked, and walk away.

Do we even now through which means this guy obtained his guns? If he obtained them illegally I don't see how stricter gun laws would have necessary prevented this.

Yeah, he bought them legally.
 
Do we even now through which means this guy obtained his guns? If he obtained them illegally I don't see how stricter gun laws would have necessary prevented this.

I heard in the news tonight that he bought two guns in the last two days, maybe 3 days I forgot. How accurate that is I'm not sure but it was on the national news.

Edit: haha yeah I meant he bought them legally.
 
Do we even now through which means this guy obtained his guns? If he obtained them illegally I don't see how stricter gun laws would have necessary prevented this.

It appears he bought them legally.

While also on the FBI watch list.
 
Do we even now through which means this guy obtained his guns? If he obtained them illegally I don't see how stricter gun laws would have necessary prevented this.

He bought them legally last week. Dude was on the FBI radar and was still able to get them. Speaks to the failure of the FBI and our screening (lack thereof) process.
 
It would have stopped him buying the gun though. Fuck sake.

Ideally, I'd love for there to be a virtually gun free America, similar to the systems in place in the UK after Dunblane. But it's much, much easier said than done.

I'm strongly in favour of Obama's gradual reforms in an effort to solve the problem. Sudden, extreme change will just destabilise the country and probably lead to far more fatalities. With that said, it's a huge problem, and it definitely needs to be addressed in some way; there is far too much blood on America's hands at the moment.
 
Regardless of whether or not the guy was affiliated with ISIS or a terror organization or if it was influenced by radical Islam at all (it probably was), it's a terror attack. It's also a hate crime, but it's still a terror attack.

It absolutely is, which is why I said "as the media likes to define it". The article Lee posted is very nice in summing up a lot of my thoughts.

My two best friends are in the LGBT community and I can say for a fact that I don't feel a fraction of the fear they do here. The more the homophobic side of this is erased in favor of feeding the mass media's terrorism rhetoric, the more marginalized the actual victims of the attack become.
 
This whole thing has basically crippled me emotionally, leaving me not wanting to engage with anything to do with it, which obviously isn't helpful, but I think it's the only thing keeping me from locking myself in my room for a week.

I will say Owen Jones is a writer I admire a lot and he's often able to articulate ideas we share in a way I'm not.
 
I'm not going to deny that Western intervention has added fuel to the proverbial fire, but to suggest this is the primary reason they exist? That's not true.

The difference between Islamic extremism and other forms of extremism is that extremist views of Islam are still not only tolerated, but enforced by various states in the world as the national law people must adhere to. This basically allows for products of the system to be created en masse, and continue this aggressive cycle of backwards rhetoric to be forged.

There is a reason that Islamic terrorism is the only kind of religious terrorism that is prominent across the entire globe. It's basically the only religion where extremism can be considered a common collectivist view, not one based more on individualism.

Also, Coco, did I do a Dagger and read too deeply into sarcasm? I do have a trigger finger when it comes to cultural relativism, even it is sarcastic.

The Bible is the biggest war-mongering pamphlet in the world. Ask Barbs how long was that book quoted and used to send Christian terrorists to stake claim of their dominance some 300 years ago.

The Puranas from the Hindu religion has a vicious caste system and an air of superiority to other religions. Do you know how many Muslims have been killed by Hindus over the last 25 years?

Islam seems like its the devil coz its happening to Americans, and all over the mainstream news.
 

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