50 Dead, 53 Injured in mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub

[Xemmy]

People want to blame on thing or the other. Our current gun laws or Islam. Don't really see enough people bothering to criticize both. It's way more complicated than that obviously. But I wish people would stop fooling themselves into thinking it's one thing or the other.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

People want to blame on thing or the other. Our current gun laws or Islam. Don't really see enough people bothering to criticize both. It's way more complicated than that obviously. But I wish people would stop fooling themselves into thinking it's one thing or the other.

People are unwilling to accept this is simply the world we live in right now.

Are you going to get rid of guns? No.

Are you going to whipe Muslims off the face of the earth? No.

Both are unnecessary and unrealistic.

There is no easy answer or fix. From anyone. People just want to go to their usual knee-jerk reaction and go on about their day feeling like they did something.

 

[JGlass]

Those gun laws sure saved all those folks in France. While we are at it, we ought to make suicide vests and killing people illegal as well.

Yes, let us lament the lack of laws that would have prevented exactly fucking nothing in this situation, and ideology that encourages such violence

We should probably just waive the laws that make rape illegal too. I mean, rapists are going to rape people even though they know it's against the law.

 

[Da Prophet]

People are unwilling to accept this is simply the world we live in right now.

Are you going to get rid of guns? No.

Are you going to whipe Muslims off the face of the earth? No.

Both are unnecessary and unrealistic.

There is no easy answer or fix. From anyone. People just want to go to their usual knee-jerk reaction and go on about their day feeling like they did something.

Yeah I'm not going to accept that this is simply the world we live in when my country (Australia) put strict guns laws in and 20 years later we still haven't had a mass shooting while 15 of them have occurred in America since Obama was elected. That's two vastly different worlds right there.

 

[Slash-LN]

I've skipped pages 2-4, because of the shit i read on page 1

- While i understand that you have a right to guns in america, why/how was he allowed to get into the nightclub with guns?

It kind of sounds like he just barged in an started shooting.

I'm not going to say this is a fact but it's quite possible that he could have shot the bouncer on his way in. Since most clubs have bouncers to check ids.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

We should probably just waive the laws that make rape illegal too. I mean, rapists are going to rape people even though they know it's against the law.

Has anyone who was going to rape someone ever stopped before insertion and said you know this is illegal, better not?

Sure they go to jail, which is proper, but rapes are still committed.

Kind of poor example in the parlance of this conversation

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Yeah I'm not going to accept that this is simply the world we live in when my country (Australia) put strict guns laws in and 20 years later we still haven't had a mass shooting while 15 of them have occurred in America since Obama was elected. That's two vastly different worlds right there.

Right. And so did France.

France also happens to not be an island far as shit away from everyone, that Muslims extremists have shown little interest in.

 

[JGlass]

Has anyone who was going to rape someone ever stopped before insertion and said you know this is illegal, better not?

Sure they go to jail, which is proper, but rapes are still committed.

Kind of poor example in the parlance of this conversation

Not at all, because in countries where rape isn't treated as a serious crime or there are lax laws around it... guess what happens to rape rates? They skyrocket. Shit, some politician in Pakistan publicly threatened to rape someone the other day. In America, that's a crime. In Pakistan, it's diplomacy.

Gun control laws work, and picking out isolated incidents or closing your eyes, plugging your ears, and shouting the same tired, bullshit excuses isn't going to make that any less true. Nearly every country with gun control laws has much, MUCH lower rates of gun related violence than those without.

You're being shown a video taken in space of the world rotating and saying, "Well it looks flat to me."

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Not at all, because in countries where rape isn't treated as a serious crime or there are lax laws around it... guess what happens to rape rates? They skyrocket. Shit, some politician in Pakistan publicly threatened to rape someone the other day. In America, that's a crime. In Pakistan, it's diplomacy.

Gun control laws work, and picking out isolated incidents or closing your eyes, plugging your ears, and shouting the same tired, bullshit excuses isn't going to make that any less true. Nearly every country with gun control laws has much, MUCH lower rates of gun related violence than those without.

You're being shown a video taken in space of the world rotating and saying, "Well it looks flat to me."

No I'm not, I'm saying gun laws wouldn't have done anything in the face of today's motivations. Which has been proven, more than one time.

We have already discussed and agreed upon the fact that no normal person should be able to walk in off the street and buy assault weapons. Especially not one who has been investigated for connections to terrorism on multiple occasions. But that only means the patrons of this club would have died via fire, precussion, or at the end of an illegal assault rifle instead of a legal one

 

[JGlass]

Right. And so did France.

France also happens to not be an island far as shit away from everyone, that Muslims extremists have shown little interest in.

You keep pointing to France, but they have far lower gun violence than the United States.

In France there are about 1,800 gun related deaths each year.

In the United States there are 33,000.

France also has a lot harder time keeping guns out of their country than America, but that's a different story altogether.

Stop pointing to a few isolated incidents in France as if that's proof that gun control doesn't work, because there are far more examples of it working than not, and the example you're picking is weak.

No I'm not, I'm saying gun laws wouldn't have done anything in the face of today's motivations. Which has been proven, more than one time.

We have already discussed and agreed upon the fact that no normal person should be able to walk in off the street and buy assault weapons. Especially not one who has been investigated for connections to terrorism on multiple occasions. But that only means the patrons of this club would have died via fire, precussion, or at the end of an illegal assault rifle instead of a legal one

That hasn't been proven though... you think there aren't people in Australia that would like to commit a crime with a high powered firearm? Of course there are, there are nut jobs everywhere, and Australia is also not immune to Islamic extremism... and yet there hasn't been a mass shooting there in decades.

If you make it more difficult for someone to do something, it is less likely that they'll do it. Passing gun control laws might not stop every psychopath that wants to murder a bunch of people, but it will stop some, and it will certainly make things better than worse, because when it comes to mass shootings being stopped by the fabled, "good guy with a gun," the scoreboard shows the bad guy winning by a landslide.

I just don't understand what compels you to dance around the very simple and proven logic that fewer guns=fewer gun deaths.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Of course it will. Overall.

But not these kinds. Or perhaps it simply won't be by a gun, which I guess serves what you are trying to say

Which brings me back to tip toeing around calling out the ideology.

Which is my whole point. And has been .

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Like would it make you feel better to say "hey this guy killed 50 people because they were gay following an idealogy that says its proper to toss homosexuals off of the roofs of buildings, but at least he had to put a lot of effort into it as opposed to his friends in hardline Muslim countries who are encouraged to simply kill them at will in the name of honor, and he didn't get to do it easily because he could simply buy his automatic rifle instead if fashioning a bomb (hello Boston) or getting it illegally (hello France, twice, and california)

At least he had to try hard! I feel good about the situation!"

 

[Xemmy]

Like would it make you feel better to say "hey this guy killed 50 people because they were gay following an idealogy that says its proper to toss homosexuals off of the roofs of buildings, but at least he had to put a lot of effort into it as opposed to his friends in hardline Muslim countries who are encouraged to simply kill them at will in the name of honor, and he didn't get to do it easily because he could simply buy his automatic rifle instead if fashioning a bomb (hello Boston) or getting it illegally (hello France, twice, and california)

At least he had to try hard! I feel good about the situation!"

It's not just about feeling good about doing something. But hey, Is it so crazy to say that it should be hard to do what he did? To want that? Is it not alarming that it was actually really fucking easy for him to do what he did? He got the guns legally, despite being on a watch list. He shouldn't have been able to do that. Making things difficult isn't a fix. You're right. There's a serious cultural religious issue there, and I'm tired of people pretending that criticizing Islam is racist or off limits for some reason. You've got a legitimate beef there.

But how many mass shootings is America going to have from all different races and creeds before we decide we might want to take some measures to make that shit harder to do? Will it prevent all mass shootings? Hell no. But it might prevent a few if it takes you a couple of weeks, some training, and actually enforcing our background check laws, etc to get your gun. At the very least it'll prevent the stupid ones from doing what they want to do. And I'd bet this was one of those times. Any moron that thinks a gay night club is a prime target probably doesn't have a great head on his shoulders.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I've always supported gun control.

I just don't feel its the issue here, and CERTAINELY not the main issue, and I don't care for people's knee-jerk rush to "oh lets not blame Islam or Islamic extremism, lets not even talk about it, someone might get their feelings hurt. So lets talk about guns!" while ignoring gun laws would have done fuck all in this instance

 

[Rayne]

I just don't feel its the issue here, and CERTAINELY not the main issue, and I don't care for people's knee-jerk rush to "oh lets not blame Islam or Islamic extremism, lets not even talk about it, someone might get their feelings hurt. So lets talk about guns!" while ignoring gun laws would have done fuck all in this instance

Those gun laws sure saved all those folks in France. While we are at it, we ought to make suicide vests and killing people illegal as well.

Yes, let us lament the lack of laws that would have prevented exactly fucking nothing in this situation, and ideology that encourages such violence

There is no easy answer or fix. From anyone. People just want to go to their usual knee-jerk reaction and go on about their day feeling like they did something.

Sooooooooooooooo................ how effective would have been closing American borders to all Muslims in preventing this incident?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

At least it would have tried to address the actual issue

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

At least it would have tried to address the actual issue

You've been having mass shootings without Muslims from around the world. It may go half way but like people are saying, if guns are harder to acquire then of course it makes these situations more preventable.

 

[A11oftheLights]

Norcal why I are you taking such a hard line approch that there is only one way to solve this? This is a bloke that was investigated by the FBI as a terror suspect. IF you had gun control this bloke would not be able to get guns and then while he's trying to build a bomb the FBI should do their job and swoop in.
Which is what has happened multiple times in australia recently

You are right when you say gun control is going to stop these completely, there probably isnt a single action that could. And you have to admit that it could go a long way without blatantly violating human rights

 

[Rayne]

At least it would have tried to address the actual issue

American-born Muslims, or knee-jerk reactions?

 

[Mighty NorCal]

Perhaps I should restate for the 50th time that I could give a flying motherfuck I any civilian ever handles a firearm ever again, and certainly NOT automatic assault rifles, and the second amendment is irrelevant. Ive said these things many times.

I just do not feel thisis remotely the key issue in this situation, and people should not be distracting themselves with it because they are too afraid to offend people with the truth.

IF you had gun control this bloke would not be able to get guns

Legally

Didn't stop the guys in Brussels or Paris

while he's trying to build a bomb the FBI should do their job and swoop in.

Just like they did with the Boston bomber. Besides, you turn up focus on terror "watch list" people and then people cry about discrimination. "OH JUST BECAUSE MY FAMILY IS FROM AFGHANISTAN AND HAS PRAISED THE TALIBAN AND I HAVE CONNECTIONS TO SOMEONE WHK DIED IN A TERROR PLOT YOU TAKE MY RIGHTS??? YOU SURVEIL ME BECAUSE I BOUGHT THE INGREDIENTS OF A BOMB?"

Shit like that doesn't fly over here.

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

Perhaps I should restate for the 50th time that I could give a flying motherfuck I any civilian ever handles a firearm ever again, and certainly NOT automatic assault rifles, and the second amendment is irrelevant. Ive said these things many times.

I just do not feel thisis remotely the key issue in this situation, and people should not be distracting themselves with it because they are too afraid to offend people with the truth.




Legally

Didn't stop the guys in Brussels or Paris




Just like they did with the Boston bomber. Besides, you turn up focus on terror "watch list" people and then people cry about discrimination.

It won't completely eradicate it but it will go some way to stopping it been a regular occurrence. How can you not see that?

If you believe there is an issue here then why the fuck would you supply the people who have said issue with shit to take you down.

 

[The Doctor]

I think that being quick to claim that it is an act of terrorism as the media likes to define it and saying it was "an attack against all of us" as I just heard it reported does nothing but trivialize the targeted nature of it as a hate crime.

 

[Mighty NorCal]

It won't completely eradicate it but it will go some way to stopping it been a regular occurrence. How can you not see that?

If you believe there is an issue here then why the fuck would you supply the people who have said issue with shit to take you down.

Attacks by Muslim Extremists who could care less about laws or even death ARENT a regular thing.


Would it most likely bring down the occurrence of gun violence and make mass shootings less effective ? Overall, yes.

But this isn't a situation were its applicable, and I've given examples of why. This isn't a nut job on a spree for fair fucks, its a person who is driven by ideology that does not pause for laws or death.

That's been my point. I can't classify this under the same umbrella as the types of things you guys are talking about and I think that is going over a lot if people's heads

 

[Mighty NorCal]

I think that being quick to claim that it is an act of terrorism as the media likes to define it and saying it was "an attack against all of us" as I just heard it reported does nothing but trivialize the targeted nature of it as a hate crime.

It most certainly fucking was, against a group of people vehemently reviled by this particular breed of fucking savages

 

[Stone Cold Tea]

Attacks by Muslim Extremists who could care less about laws or even death ARENT a regular thing.


Would it most likely bring down the occurrence of gun violence and make mass shootings less effective ? Overall, yes.

But this isn't a situation were its applicable, and I've given examples of why. This isn't a nut job on a spree for fair fucks, its a person who is driven by ideology that does not pause for laws or death.

That's been my point. I can't classify this under the same umbrella as the types of things you guys are talking about and I think that is going over a lot if people's heads

You can see where the confusion would come in then. Considering the guys supposed motivations and the way it has been twisted it appeared, to me at least, you was on more of an anti-islam tirade/guns aren't bad people are. My apologies.