1970s Bracket Round 3, Match 4-4)Rocky vs. 5)Chinatown

[klunderbunker]

The Wrestlezone Movie Tournament, 1970s Bracket,
Round 3, Match 4

Rocky

Vs.

Chinatown

​

 

[IrishCanadian25]

I won't say anything AGAINST Chinatown. It's a good film. A very good film.

But Rocky is better. Far better. And the right thing to do is to vote for Rocky in this poll. Let me explain why.

1. Rocky is based on a true story. That always enthralls the audience more. But this isn't "based on a true story" the way Blair Witch was. This is loosely based off of Chuck Wepner, an overweight brawler from Bayonne, NJ (30 mins from me) who took Muhammed Ali to 15 rounds from out of no where.

2. Everyone loves the underdog. Rocky may very well be the greatest underdog film of all time. A club fighter who breaks thumbs for a loan shark along the docks for a living. His "best friend" is an alcoholic malcontent names Paulie, and he has a crush on a girl who is equally the underdog. The story has everything. Action, humor, intregue, romance, and of course, that climactic look at Rocky becoming the first to go 15 rounds with Apollo Creed.

3. Despite being a "sports movie," the sport didn't dominate the movie. The best part about Rocky? The fact that a) he doesn't win the fight, and b) nobody cares that he doesn't win the fight, because the ending is all about his love for Adrian. He never breaks his classic character either. When he first sees her, his eye slashed up and his nose shattered, he asks her "where's your hat?" One of the best romances in film history.

4. It's indisputably in the top 3 sports movies of all time. Some major lists place it behind Bull Durham, some behind Raging Bull, but general consensus is that Rocky is either #1 or #2. Sports Illustrated ranked it 2nd.

5. Stallone wrote and starred in the film. Before such classics as "Judge Dredd" or "Stop! Or My Mom will Shoot!", Stallone wrote the story of Rocky, partially making himself the true underdog story. He pitched the film to the producers, and they went wild. When they told him that they wanted Burt Reynolds to star as the title character, Stallone said "if I don't play the lead, you don't get the film." They conceded, and the rest is history.

6. Rocky appeals to the man in all of us. Everyone can identify with this film. Everyone has been down on their luck and had to look for inspiration and the ability to gut it out and make our own breaks. I used to watch Rocky 1-4 and Rudy the day before wrestling practice started in High School just to get in the right mindframe. I defy you to introduce me to an athlete who has never worked out to the soundtrack.

7. Rocky is one of the most quotable films in history. See below:

Adrian!

But it's Thanksgiving!

Yeah, to you! But to me it's Thursday!

You want the bird!? Go out in the alley and eat the damn bird!

I think we make a real sharp couple of coconuts - I'm dumb, you're shy, whaddaya think, huh?

You're gonna eat lightnin' and you're gonna crap thunder!

Apollo Creed meets the Italian Stallion, Sounds like a damn monster movie.

Your nose is broken.

How's it look?

Ah, it's an improvement.

8. Rocky was so important to the city of Philadelphia that the statue of Rocky from the 3rd film still stands, and is still visited and revered by the city. When you ask sports fans in Philly (prior to the World Series ending) who the greatest champions in the history of the city were, most of them would say "Rocky" in their top 5. And he's not even real.

9. Rocky spawned 3 excellent sequels. And 2 shitty sequels. But from Apollo, to Hulk "Thunderlips" Hogan, to "Clubber Lang" Mr. T, to Dolph "Ivan Drago" Lundgren, Rocky has had so many different foes who were bigger, stronger, smarter, or more talented that he was.

10. Eye of the Tiger. 'Nuff Said.

Do the right thing. Vote for Rocky as one of the greatest movies of all time.

 

[Murfish]

I won't say anything AGAINST Chinatown. It's a good film. A very good film.

It isn’t just a very good film. It is an all time great.

But Rocky is better. Far better. And the right thing to do is to vote for Rocky in this poll. Let me explain why.

It’s not better, not by a long shot. Chinatown is without doubt the better film.

1. Rocky is based on a true story. That always enthralls the audience more. But this isn't "based on a true story" the way Blair Witch was. This is loosely based off of Chuck Wepner, an overweight brawler from Bayonne, NJ (30 mins from me) who took Muhammed Ali to 15 rounds from out of no where.

Being based on a true story has nothing to do with how good a film is, but if that is the point you want to bring up then I will respond. Chinatown’s entire premise is based on true events. The corruption of L.A. is a part of real history. The original trilogy idea was to explore all three of the main problems that plagued L.A. While the story of Chinatown is not a true story, it is still a gripping an powerful story.

2. Everyone loves the underdog. Rocky may very well be the greatest underdog film of all time. A club fighter who breaks thumbs for a loan shark along the docks for a living. His "best friend" is an alcoholic malcontent names Paulie, and he has a crush on a girl who is equally the underdog. The story has everything. Action, humor, intregue, romance, and of course, that climactic look at Rocky becoming the first to go 15 rounds with Apollo Creed.

3. Despite being a "sports movie," the sport didn't dominate the movie. The best part about Rocky? The fact that a) he doesn't win the fight, and b) nobody cares that he doesn't win the fight, because the ending is all about his love for Adrian. He never breaks his classic character either. When he first sees her, his eye slashed up and his nose shattered, he asks her "where's your hat?" One of the best romances in film history.

So for being a ‘sports movie’ it isn’t actually focused on sports? Well Chinatown is a neo noir movie, in fact it is the best neo noir film. Chinatown did not need to rely on any of the camp associated with the genre. It transcended it’s genre to tell a psychological thriller that leaves you broken.

4. It's indisputably in the top 3 sports movies of all time. Some major lists place it behind Bull Durham, some behind Raging Bull, but general consensus is that Rocky is either #1 or #2. Sports Illustrated ranked it 2nd.

And Chinatown is the greatest neo noir movie ever made. Add to that it is one of the top two mystery films of all time. Alfred Hitchcock’s Vertigo is the only film to beat Chinatown out. I would argue that the category of sports movies doesn’t have the prestige of mystery films.

5. Stallone wrote and starred in the film. Before such classics as "Judge Dredd" or "Stop! Or My Mom will Shoot!", Stallone wrote the story of Rocky, partially making himself the true underdog story. He pitched the film to the producers, and they went wild. When they told him that they wanted Burt Reynolds to star as the title character, Stallone said "if I don't play the lead, you don't get the film." They conceded, and the rest is history.

Once again that is not a reason to be considered one of the greatest films of all time. I could tell you things that have no relevance to the argument. Roman Polanski was arrested and convicted of statutory rape after the film was released. See, that has no relevance to this discussion, but it sounds interesting. Robert Towne was offered $175,000 to write the screenplay of The Great Gatsby, but he didn’t think that he could do it justice. Then Towne asked for 25,000 to write the screenplay of Chinatown.

6. Rocky appeals to the man in all of us. Everyone can identify with this film. Everyone has been down on their luck and had to look for inspiration and the ability to gut it out and make our own breaks. I used to watch Rocky 1-4 and Rudy the day before wrestling practice started in High School just to get in the right mindframe. I defy you to introduce me to an athlete who has never worked out to the soundtrack.

If you have ever felt that you have failed or that you have made a futile attempt at something, then Chinatown will hit you at the core. Any preconceived notions that good wins will be stripped away. The fact that you have used it for work out prove that it a big movie, but it doesn’t prove that it is a good movie.

7. Rocky is one of the most quotable films in history. See below:

Chinatown may not have many quotes, but it does have one of the best and most poignant quotes in film.

Forget it Jake, it’s Chinatown.

8. Rocky was so important to the city of Philadelphia that the statue of Rocky from the 3rd film still stands, and is still visited and revered by the city. When you ask sports fans in Philly (prior to the World Series ending) who the greatest champions in the history of the city were, most of them would say "Rocky" in their top 5. And he's not even real.

I don’t really have a response to this. Yes it shows that Rocky is important and that many people have seen it, but that doesn’t make it a better film. If you ask most people if they’ve seen Citizen Kane or Star Wars, then more will say Star Wars. If you ask people which film they enjoyed more between Pan’s Labyrinth and Pirates of the Caribbean, most would say Pirates. Does that mean Star Wars is better than Citizen Kane or that Pirates of the Caribbean is better than Pan’s Labyrinth? No, of course not.

9. Rocky spawned 3 excellent sequels. And 2 shitty sequels. But from Apollo, to Hulk "Thunderlips" Hogan, to "Clubber Lang" Mr. T, to Dolph "Ivan Drago" Lundgren, Rocky has had so many different foes who were bigger, stronger, smarter, or more talented that he was.

Those don’t impact what this film was though. Either way none of them were as good as the original. Chinatown was plagued by bad sequels, but that doesn’t add or take away from the greatness of Chinatown.

10. Eye of the Tiger. 'Nuff Said.

Jack Nicholson, John Huston, futility, and haunting fucking trumpet solos. ‘Nuff Said.

Do the right thing. Vote for Rocky as one of the greatest movies of all time.

Don’t make the biggest mistake of the tournament (slight overstatement) by voting for Rocky.

Vote for Chinatown.

 

[Mr. TM]

This is for you Murfish. Both movies are incredible. Rocky is a great inspiration to all the underdogs ever. But the thing is, there are two boxing movies, and one must die. I have supported Raging Bull this round, so Ill go against Rocky here. Also I support Chinatown because it is a great movie in its own right. I do not think it has a chance here Murfish, but Ill stick by you and fall in this round. I think more people need to see Chinatown, so go watch it.

 

[Monkey_Mania]

Both movies are incredible. No doubt about that. Chinatown may be the better film in a film making sense, but Rocky is entertaining. something that I did not find in Chinatown at all. Everybody can quote Rocky, nobody really knows anything about Chinatown. Simply put, Rocky has stood the test of time, Chinatown has not.

My vote goes to Rocky.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

It isn’t just a very good film. It is an all time great.

It’s not better, not by a long shot. Chinatown is without doubt the better film.

I doubt it. 11 other people as of this moment doubt it. Rocky remains one of the finest and most important films of the last 25 years, which is why people still buy it, people still emulate it, and TV stations still play it. Don't ask me when the last time Chinatown was played on AMC, TCM, or any other reputable classic film channel. Guess it's not that classic, eh?

You know what film is played consistently because of what a masterpeice it is? That's right - Rocky.

Being based on a true story has nothing to do with how good a film is, but if that is the point you want to bring up then I will respond. Chinatown’s entire premise is based on true events. The corruption of L.A. is a part of real history. The original trilogy idea was to explore all three of the main problems that plagued L.A. While the story of Chinatown is not a true story, it is still a gripping an powerful story.

Being loosely based off of corruption in LA isn't an accomplishment. Mounds of films are based off of corruption in LA. Hell, I think telletubbies may be based off of corruption in LA. But the fact that such a fantastic film as Rocky was based off of an actual occurance in boxing is a cool fact, and one I felt people needed to hear.

So for being a ‘sports movie’ it isn’t actually focused on sports?

It's focused on MORE than sports. It isn't just about the big game, it's about the lives of the people surrounded by the sport. It's about being an underdog in more than just a fight - but also being an underdog in the fight of your life. That is what makes this film appeal and relate to EVERYONE.

Well Chinatown is a neo noir movie, in fact it is the best neo noir film. Chinatown did not need to rely on any of the camp associated with the genre. It transcended it’s genre to tell a psychological thriller that leaves you broken? And Chinatown is the greatest neo noir movie ever made. Add to that it is one of the top two mystery films of all time. Alfred Hitchcock’s Vertigo is the only film to beat Chinatown out. I would argue that the category of sports movies doesn’t have the prestige of mystery films.

I was going to get on your case about this one, but I looked up "neo-noir" and discovered how many films are considered part of that genre. It's an impressive list. Se7en, L.A. Confidential, Pulp Fiction, The Usual Suspects, Fargo, Heat, etc. Most lists, however, do not rank Chinatown in the list of the best. Body Heat, Fatal Attraction, Blade Runner, etc. are more prominently mentioned. So Chinatown is a disputed top-genre film. Rocky is an undisputed top genre film. To claim that neo-noir has more going for it than sports films is naive and dismissive. Sports films make up a huge percentage of classic movies, and may be one of the most important genres ever. Sports gives us something that comedy, drama, romance, etc. cannot. Something to hold onto, something to truly believe in.

 

[X]

Rocky is by far the most overrated film ever created. Anyone who's going to sit here and try to tell me with a straight face that Sylvester Stallone was ever a good actor, or is a good actor in this film, is huffing gasoline. To even attempt to compare Stallone to someone like Nicholson is a crime against all of acting. The acting in this film is subpar at best with the glaring exception of the always amazing Burgess Meredeth, the writing varies from laughable to mediocre. How this film is even being compared to Chinatown is fucking ABSURD. Everything about Chinatown is superior. The directing, the writing, the acting, the cinematography, everything.

Now to respond to previous points.

1. Rocky is based on a true story. That always enthralls the audience more. But this isn't "based on a true story" the way Blair Witch was. This is loosely based off of Chuck Wepner, an overweight brawler from Bayonne, NJ (30 mins from me) who took Muhammed Ali to 15 rounds from out of no where.

How exactly does the fact that this film was based on a true story (barely) make this a superior film to Chinatown? That argument is rather nonsensical IC old pal.

2. Everyone loves the underdog. Rocky may very well be the greatest underdog film of all time. A club fighter who breaks thumbs for a loan shark along the docks for a living. His "best friend" is an alcoholic malcontent names Paulie, and he has a crush on a girl who is equally the underdog. The story has everything. Action, humor, intregue, romance, and of course, that climactic look at Rocky becoming the first to go 15 rounds with Apollo Creed.

Again, the fact that Rocky's character is an underdog is not an argument for Rocky being superior to Chinatown. You're basically just describing the plot of the film and saying that this makes it better then Chinatown? The characters in Rocky are laughably bland and some of the most stereotypical characters you see in a film, whereas Chinatown contains some of the most intricate and multi-layered characters ever committed to film. Not much of an argument there.

3. Despite being a "sports movie," the sport didn't dominate the movie. The best part about Rocky? The fact that a) he doesn't win the fight, and b) nobody cares that he doesn't win the fight, because the ending is all about his love for Adrian. He never breaks his classic character either. When he first sees her, his eye slashed up and his nose shattered, he asks her "where's your hat?" One of the best romances in film history.

I'll agree with you that the romance in the film worked. But again, how is this an argument for Rocky being better then Chinatown? If we're talking about intelligent writing/plot development, Chinatown is at the absolute top of both of those lists, miles and miles ahead of Rocky.

4. It's indisputably in the top 3 sports movies of all time. Some major lists place it behind Bull Durham, some behind Raging Bull, but general consensus is that Rocky is either #1 or #2. Sports Illustrated ranked it 2nd.

So because it's one of the best sports movies that makes it better then Chinatown, one of the best dramas ever created? There are about 12 million times as many drama films as sports, so the fact that Chinatown is regarded so highly in a genre with an asburdly superior amount of competition says quite clearly which if the better film.

5. Stallone wrote and starred in the film. Before such classics as "Judge Dredd" or "Stop! Or My Mom will Shoot!", Stallone wrote the story of Rocky, partially making himself the true underdog story. He pitched the film to the producers, and they went wild. When they told him that they wanted Burt Reynolds to star as the title character, Stallone said "if I don't play the lead, you don't get the film." They conceded, and the rest is history.

So let me get this straight, one of your arguments for Rocky being a better film here is because Sylvester Stallone is a self-centered douchebag? What a great argument. And Stallone was HARDLY the first actor to write/direct/star in a film. Besides, Stallone is an atrocious screenwriter.

The rest of your "points", just like the previous ones, have absolutely no information as to why you believe Rocky is superior to Chinatown. Come on IC, I expect better arguments then these from you. These aren't even arguments.

Your next post...

I doubt it. 11 other people as of this moment doubt it. Rocky remains one of the finest and most important films of the last 25 years, which is why people still buy it, people still emulate it, and TV stations still play it. Don't ask me when the last time Chinatown was played on AMC, TCM, or any other reputable classic film channel. Guess it's not that classic, eh?

Actually Chinatown was on last week. Besides, this argument is ridiculious. The quality of a film depends on whether or not AMC or TCM plays it? AMC also played "Pinata: Survival island", a film about killer pinatas 3 times last week. Is that an American Classic?

For that matter, wanna tell me when the last time Citizen Kane was on TV? I guess that movie isn't a classic either, then?

Being loosely based off of corruption in LA isn't an accomplishment. Mounds of films are based off of corruption in LA. Hell, I think telletubbies may be based off of corruption in LA. But the fact that such a fantastic film as Rocky was based off of an actual occurance in boxing is a cool fact, and one I felt people needed to hear.

Again, how the fuck is the fact that Rocky is based off of a true story make it a better film? That argument is not only illogical, it's stupid. Maybe we should start judging the quality of films on how pretty their DVD covers look? Or how about on the kind of font they use in the credits? These are just as meaningless as whether or not the film was based on true events.

It's focused on MORE than sports. It isn't just about the big game, it's about the lives of the people surrounded by the sport. It's about being an underdog in more than just a fight - but also being an underdog in the fight of your life. That is what makes this film appeal and relate to EVERYONE.

Please, that EXACT story was done 12 million times before Rocky was ever even thought of. That movie was about as original as Friday the 13th Part 8. Whereas there has NEVER been a film similiar to Chinatown.

I was going to get on your case about this one, but I looked up "neo-noir" and discovered how many films are considered part of that genre. It's an impressive list. Se7en, L.A. Confidential, Pulp Fiction, The Usual Suspects, Fargo, Heat, etc. Most lists, however, do not rank Chinatown in the list of the best. Body Heat, Fatal Attraction, Blade Runner, etc. are more prominently mentioned. So Chinatown is a disputed top-genre film.

Right, first off, whoever considers Blade Runner to be a neo-noir film is a moron. Could that film possibly be any more of a Sci-Fi film? Further more, wherever you've read that Chinatown isn't considered a top neo-noir film is fucking absurd and simply incorrect. Chinatown is ranked #50th on IMDB in it's top 250 films (taken from hundreds of thousands of user ratings) and thats of ANY genre, not just neo-noir. Whereas Rocky is ranked #239th. So which film is the more highly regarded again?

Rocky is an undisputed top genre film. To claim that neo-noir has more going for it than sports films is naive and dismissive. Sports films make up a huge percentage of classic movies, and may be one of the most important genres ever. Sports gives us something that comedy, drama, romance, etc. cannot. Something to hold onto, something to truly believe in.

That's just fucking absurd IC. Sports films are more important then crime-thrillers? Are you insane? How many sports films come out every year? 3, 4? Compared to like 200 crime-thrillers? Your logic here is just ridiculious IC. Chinatown is first and foremost a drama. You going to tell me sports films have more going for it then drama?

IC25 you know I love ya bro, but your "points" are absurd.

 

[Y 2 Jake]

Besides, Stallone is an atrocious screenwriter.

[youtube]m9X7aqygXA4[/youtube]

I beg to differ. This had me rolling on the floor laughing out loud. Don't point out the lack of dialogue, I'm proving a point.

Nobody kid themselves. Everyones favorite Rocky is the 4th. A big nasty Ruskie is a better villain than a nationalistic American. Training with a Christ like log on your back is a better way to train that punching an animal carcass. The dialogue is just as cheesy in the first, it's a lot more fun. Like most sequels it's got everything from the original, but more.

Rocky isn't even the best Rocky film.

 

[jmt225]

Rocky is by far the most overrated film ever created.

No it's not.

Anyone who's going to sit here and try to tell me with a straight face that Sylvester Stallone was ever a good actor, or is a good actor in this film, is huffing gasoline.

No I'm not. Sylvester Stallone is a good actor. Not great, but some roles are just perfect for him, which makes him good. Seriously, can anyone honestly picture someone else playing Rocky better then Stallone did? I cant...

To even attempt to compare Stallone to someone like Nicholson is a crime against all of acting.

No one made that comparison.

The acting in this film is subpar at best with the glaring exception of the always amazing Burgess Meredeth,

Burgess Meredith is spectacular, but so is everyone else in the movie.

the writing varies from laughable to mediocre.

No it doesn't. The dialogue is for an average Joe, not for movie snobs.

How this film is even being compared to Chinatown is fucking ABSURD.

No it's not.

Everything about Chinatown is superior.

Not true.

The directing,

This, you probably have a point on. I'm sure it wasn't that hard to shoot Rocky, whereas Chinatown was probably a tough job for Polanski.

Though, the boxing match was pretty well done and Avildsen deserves credit for that. However, Polanski is still by far the superior director (The Pianist is better then Chinatown to me, by the way).

the writing,

Not true. The writing is for certain people for each film, and Rocky has the broader audience, which makes the writing better.

the acting,

Absolutely not. It's a tie, if anything. Each film was cast perfectly.

the cinematography,

Okay? One was shot in shitty fucking Philadelphia, while the other in Los Angeles. Of course the one with Los Angeles is going to look better. Not to mention, Chinatown had a much higher budget to work with then Rocky.

everything.

No.

And for the record, you forgot to mention music, which Rocky definitely has the edge on.

How exactly does the fact that this film was based on a true story (barely) make this a superior film to Chinatown?

A true story is more touching then a fictional one.

Again, the fact that Rocky's character is an underdog is not an argument for Rocky being superior to Chinatown. You're basically just describing the plot of the film and saying that this makes it better then Chinatown? The characters in Rocky are laughably bland and some of the most stereotypical characters you see in a film, whereas Chinatown contains some of the most intricate and multi-layered characters ever committed to film. Not much of an argument there.

Again, Rocky being an underdog makes more people believe in him, which gives them a huge passion for the film. Touching people is the ultimate goal of a film, and there aren't many movies out there that did that better then the original Rocky.

I'll agree with you that the romance in the film worked. But again, how is this an argument for Rocky being better then Chinatown? If we're talking about intelligent writing/plot development, Chinatown is at the absolute top of both of those lists, miles and miles ahead of Rocky.

No it's not. People can relate to Rocky. They can believe in Rocky. You don't get that with Chinatown. With Chinatown, it's like, "Well that was a good whodunit picture." But that's really it. Rocky makes you feel every emotion possible. Happiness, sadness, excitement, ect. After you watch it, the movie stays on your mind and Rocky becomes a hero to you. There's nothing about Chinatown that makes that sort of impact.

So because it's one of the best sports movies that makes it better then Chinatown, one of the best dramas ever created? There are about 12 million times as many drama films as sports, so the fact that Chinatown is regarded so highly in a genre with an asburdly superior amount of competition says quite clearly which if the better film.

Rocky's not only one of the best sports movies of all time, but also one of the best drama movies ever as well. Rocky is a dramatic picture. It's not just a sports film or just a comedy or a romance movie. It has all those qualities, but at the end of the day, it's a drama and one of the greatest dramas of all time. The popularity of the film speaks for itself on that.

So let me get this straight, one of your arguments for Rocky being a better film here is because Sylvester Stallone is a self-centered douchebag? What a great argument. And Stallone was HARDLY the first actor to write/direct/star in a film. Besides, Stallone is an atrocious screenwriter.

For one, Stallone didn't direct it. But yes, Stallone does deserve a lot of credit for both his writing and acting with this movie. I wouldn't say one of the reasons Rocky is better then Chinatown is because the person who wrote it also starred in it, but still... Rocky is the superior film.

The rest of your "points", just like the previous ones, have absolutely no information as to why you believe Rocky is superior to Chinatown. Come on IC, I expect better arguments then these from you. These aren't even arguments.

IC's post was filled with passion and love for a movie. That's all one needs to have to claim one movie is better then the other.

Actually Chinatown was on last week. Besides, this argument is ridiculious. The quality of a film depends on whether or not AMC or TCM plays it? AMC also played "Pinata: Survival island", a film about killer pinatas 3 times last week. Is that an American Classic?

His point was that Rocky still gets recognized to this very day. You don't hear much about Chinatown, but Rocky gets replayed all the time and there are TONS of reminders of that movie/character throughout pop culture and life period. You don't have that kind of legacy with Chinatown.

For that matter, wanna tell me when the last time Citizen Kane was on TV? I guess that movie isn't a classic either, then?

Just face it, there aren't many films more remembered and quotable then Rocky, including Citizen Kane and yes, Chinatown.

Again, how the fuck is the fact that Rocky is based off of a true story make it a better film?

Already explained it.

That argument is not only illogical, it's stupid. Maybe we should start judging the quality of films on how pretty their DVD covers look? Or how about on the kind of font they use in the credits? These are just as meaningless as whether or not the film was based on true events.

Don't be silly.

Please, that EXACT story was done 12 million times before Rocky was ever even thought of. That movie was about as original as Friday the 13th Part 8. Whereas there has NEVER been a film similiar to Chinatown.

Then how come none of those movies are remembered as much as Rocky?

Right, first off, whoever considers Blade Runner to be a neo-noir film is a moron.

That was actually pretty funny, no sarcasm.

Further more, wherever you've read that Chinatown isn't considered a top neo-noir film is fucking absurd and simply incorrect.

I'll agree with you that Chinatown is a 'top neo-noir film'. That's a fact.

Chinatown is ranked #50th on IMDB in it's top 250 films (taken from hundreds of thousands of user ratings) and thats of ANY genre, not just neo-noir. Whereas Rocky is ranked #239th. So which film is the more highly regarded again?

IMDB is full of nothing but ******s and movie snobs. Just read any fucking forum there and you'll want to kill yourself.

That's just fucking absurd IC. Sports films are more important then crime-thrillers? Are you insane? How many sports films come out every year? 3, 4? Compared to like 200 crime-thrillers? Your logic here is just ridiculious IC. Chinatown is first and foremost a drama. You going to tell me sports films have more going for it then drama?

I personally wouldn't claim sports films are more important then crime-thrillers, but still... Rocky is not just another sports movie. It's a classic and a movie that is more important then Chinatown.

To end this, at the end of the day, this is all subjective. However, no one can deny the fact that Rocky has had as big of impact on society as any movie in the history of film. It's right up there with shit like The Wizard of Oz and The Godfather. One of the biggest attractions in Philadelphia is Rocky's statue and the steps he ran on. The music in Rocky is legendary. You hear that fucking theme song at tons of sporting events. And the examples go on and on.

Rocky has just affected more people, dude, and that's why it'll top Chinatown in this tournament. Movies aren't about Oscars and fucking getting critics to suck its dick; they're about touching people and there is hardly any movie ever created that has touched more people then Rocky has, and Chinatown is not one of them.

 

[X]

No I'm not. Sylvester Stallone is a good actor. Not great, but some roles are just perfect for him, which makes him good. Seriously, can anyone honestly picture someone else playing Rocky better then Stallone did? I cant...

Come on. Sylvester Stallone has always been criticized for his acting abilities, the only other actor that is made fun of more is probably Arnold. Stallone has never been a very good actor, and his acting in Rocky, while suitable, could easily have been replicated by many an actor. You want to see a job of great acting in the portrayal of a boxer? Watch Raging Bull. That's 100 times the boxing movie Rocky could ever hope to be.

No one made that comparison.

It was more of a figure of speech, but any time you're comparing two films you're obviously comparing the acting in both films inherently. And in that comparison, Jack Nicholson is so unbelievably miles ahead of Sylvester Stallone in his acting ability it's just downright sad. I don't mean to sound like a dick, but do you honestly think that Sylvester Stallone is a better actor than Jack Nicholson? Stallone couldn't even tie Jack's shoelaces.

Burgess Meredith is spectacular, but so is everyone else in the movie.

Well atleast we can all agree on the fact that Burgess Meredith is the bomb-diggity.

No it doesn't. The dialogue is for an average Joe, not for movie snobs.

It doesn't have to be catered to an intellectual crowd, that's not what I meant. But every time I watch Rocky I find myself laughing at some of the one-liners this movie offers. Not that one-liners can't be good, but in comparison to some of the classic scenes in Chinatown's dialogue, I don't think Rocky can even compare.

No it's not.

It was just a figure of speech. I exaggerate alot.

Not true

As you mention later in your post, the only area that Rocky is superior to Chinatown in is the music. That's it. What other aspects of Rocky are better? The acting? No way. Jack Nicholson, Faye Dunaway, and John Huston are all in Chinatown. The only truly excellent actor in Rocky is Burgess Meredith. Who else does Rocky have? Carl Weathers? Nothing says great acting like Carl Weathers. The directing? Polanski is miles and miles ahead of Avildsen, who don't get me wrong is a good director, but he doesn't have even a quarter of the vision and creativity of Roman Polanski. The writing? Again, Chiantown wins there easily.

Not true. The writing is for certain people for each film, and Rocky has the broader audience, which makes the writing better.

I'm sorry but that's just false. How does the fact that Rocky's plot appeals to a wider audience make the screenplay better than Chinatown's? By that logic we can assume that High School Musical 3's writing is better then Citizen Kane's because it appeals to a wider audience? Sorry, but that's utterly false.

Absolutely not. It's a tie, if anything. Each film was cast perfectly.

What? Come on man, Jack is miles ahead of Stallone, Faye Dunaway is light years ahead of Talia Shire. The only comparable acting is that of Huston & Meredith, both of whom were among the elite actors of their generation. But in no way shape or form are the two main characters of Rocky better actors then two main characters of Chinatown. Absolutely false.

Okay? One was shot in shitty fucking Philadelphia, while the other in Los Angeles. Of course the one with Los Angeles is going to look better. Not to mention, Chinatown had a much higher budget to work with then Rocky.

The setting has nothing to do with the cinematography, I'm speaking of the way the camera is used in both films, not the settings that they film.

No.

And for the record, you forgot to mention music, which Rocky definitely has the edge on.

I did indeed forget the music, which I totally agree with you on.

A true story is more touching then a fictional one.

That's a rather brash statement. Who's to say that? If true stories were more touching (and thus, more appealing) to an audience, then why is it that fiction outsells non-fiction 100 to 1? (Just an exaggeration, I have no idea the actual ratio). Fictional stories can be just as touching and moving as a true story, because it isn't whether or not the story is true that makes something emotional/dramatic. It's the story itself that determines that, not it's basis in fact or fiction.

Again, Rocky being an underdog makes more people believe in him, which gives them a huge passion for the film. Touching people is the ultimate goal of a film, and there aren't many movies out there that did that better then the original Rocky.

I'll agree with you that Rocky is one of the movies that people find uplifting and inspirational; that's the point of the whole film. But that's a rather unfair way to compare the two films. The only way that would be a fair comparison would be if Chinatown was meant to be an uplifting and inspirational story too. But it's not. You can't compare two completely different tones of a film as though both were reaching for the same goal and one did so better then the other. It's unfair.

Besides, Chinatown's plot is much deeper and more engrossing then Rocky's is. There are thousand movies just like Rocky; there's only one Chinatown.

No it's not. People can relate to Rocky. They can believe in Rocky. You don't get that with Chinatown. With Chinatown, it's like, "Well that was a good whodunit picture." But that's really it. Rocky makes you feel every emotion possible. Happiness, sadness, excitement, ect. After you watch it, the movie stays on your mind and Rocky becomes a hero to you. There's nothing about Chinatown that makes that sort of impact.

Just because you yourself were not impacted by Chinatown doesn't make that the universal rule. Chinatown is so much more then a whodunit picture, and so much deeper then that. The underlying tones of the film are what makes it linger in you; Jack Nicholson's symbolic search for the truth; John Huston's ability to somehow make a scumbag almost sympathetic to the audience; Faye Dunaway's character, one who's motives and inspirations become more and more evident as the film passes on, like layers of a cake. Chinatown stays with you because everything isn't solved and wrapped up into a pretty little picture like Rocky is. At the end of Rocky, though he loses the fight, he is still seen as a winner and metaphorically runs off into the sunset with his blushing bride. At the end of Chinatown we're left to dissect the true motives and meanings on our own; everything is not going to be all right.

Rocky's not only one of the best sports movies of all time, but also one of the best drama movies ever as well. Rocky is a dramatic picture. It's not just a sports film or just a comedy or a romance movie. It has all those qualities, but at the end of the day, it's a drama and one of the greatest dramas of all time. The popularity of the film speaks for itself on that.

I was only really comparing the genre of sports films because thats the genre that IC25 labeled it as. I agree with you that it's much more than just a sports film, but even as a drama, it doesn not hold a candle to the drama involved in Chinatown. There's no comparison. What's Rocky's biggest dilemma in the film? To win a boxing match? Compared to a story of conspiracy, murder, and incest? Chinatown's dramatic elements are much, much stronger then Rocky's.

For one, Stallone didn't direct it. But yes, Stallone does deserve a lot of credit for both his writing and acting with this movie. I wouldn't say one of the reasons Rocky is better then Chinatown is because the person who wrote it also starred in it, but still... Rocky is the superior film.

I actually wasn't saying that Stallone directed it (because he also didn't produce it either), I was simply referring to the field of combined writer/directors int he world.

And no, Rocky is not the superior film. 99.9% of all film critics would disagree with you on that, as would most people with an extensive knowledge of film.

IC's post was filled with passion and love for a movie. That's all one needs to have to claim one movie is better then the other.

Very true. I'm not sure we've been quite introduced, but I'm not exactly known as Mr. Happy Respect Your Opinion guy. I'm trying to reverse that. There's obviously no actual tangible way for us to literally prove that one film is superior to the other. All we have are our opinions of the films and how we explain those opinions.

His point was that Rocky still gets recognized to this very day. You don't hear much about Chinatown, but Rocky gets replayed all the time and there are TONS of reminders of that movie/character throughout pop culture and life period. You don't have that kind of legacy with Chinatown.

And I understand that because we already went over the fact that Rocky reaches a broader audience then Chinatown does. Obviously pop culture is going to reference an uplifting inspirational story more often then a story about incest and murder, because Chinatown makes some people uncomfortable. It breaks taboos, something Rocky can't attest to.

Just face it, there aren't many films more remembered and quotable then Rocky, including Citizen Kane and yes, Chinatown.

Rocky really isn't nearly as quotable as a movie as you seem to infer. Not saying that Chinatown or Citizen Kane is either, but neither is Rocky. What's the one line everyone remember from Rocky? "Adriaaaannn!". That's it. You'd be hard pressed to find another oft-quoted passage from the film. But really the quotability of a film has almost nothing to do with the quality of the film.

Already explained it.

And I already showed you why that logic is flawed.

Don't be silly.

Like critiquing a film by whether or not it's based on a true story?

Then how come none of those movies are remembered as much as Rocky?

Already explained why Rocky appeals to a wider audience, and why that alone doesn't make it a superior film. By that logic High School Musical 3 is a work of genius and deserves an Academy Award.

That was actually pretty funny, no sarcasm.

I try my best

IMDB is full of nothing but ******s and movie snobs. Just read any fucking forum there and you'll want to kill yourself.

Oh I totally agree with you on that, IMDB is full of many a dumbass. But then again, the general movie-going population is full of many a dumbass. I was only using IMDB as a way to show that Chinatown is much much more highly regarded then Rocky is by a large amount of people. Idiots or not, they're still people.

I personally wouldn't claim sports films are more important then crime-thrillers, but still... Rocky is not just another sports movie. It's a classic and a movie that is more important then Chinatown.

I agree with you that the movie is regarded as a classic and is important (I for one don't consider it to be any more classic then say Die Hard or Red Dawn, but thats just my opinion) but it's very arguable to say Rocky was more important then Chinatown.

To end this, at the end of the day, this is all subjective. However, no one can deny the fact that Rocky has had as big of impact on society as any movie in the history of film. It's right up there with shit like The Wizard of Oz and The Godfather. One of the biggest attractions in Philadelphia is Rocky's statue and the steps he ran on. The music in Rocky is legendary. You hear that fucking theme song at tons of sporting events. And the examples go on and on.

Rocky has just affected more people, dude, and that's why it'll top Chinatown in this tournament. Movies aren't about Oscars and fucking getting critics to suck its dick; they're about touching people and there is hardly any movie ever created that has touched more people then Rocky has, and Chinatown is not one of them.

Again, as you said so yourself, this is all subjective. But why is it that people try to make it seem like critic's opinions don't mean shit? These people are experts in film (well some of them are; not all), wouldn't you trust an expert's opinion on their respective field of work? And the fact is that Chinatown is much more respected among hardcore film fans and critics alike then Rocky is, and not only that, but it's a better film. I believe I've given all the evidence I can to quote unquote "prove" that.

 

[IrishCanadian25]

Wow, a kinder, gentler XFear!?

Anyway, my only regret is that xfear / Mr. Eko didn't come in to this sooner, because when he and I disagree on movies or music, it's a bigger and better battleground that me vs Slyfox or me vs Shocky any day.

Before we dismiss the "acting ability" in Rocky, we need to realize that the acting in that film was supposed to be a bit typecast. None of the actors was asked to play a stretch role. Stallone was playing a character he felt was himself, and that made the role easy for him. But he still executed the role extremely well.

No dissent from me on Burgess Meredith. He is a screen god.

People are also dismissing Burt Young in the film. His role as Paulie was a classic. He was a younger, Philadelphia version of the great Archie Bunker. His drunken tirade on Thanksgiving Night, with Adrian finally standing up for herself, was a very powerful and often neglected scene in the film. And he remained a strong character in all of the sequels.

The names "Sylvester Stallone" and "Jack Nicholson" don't belong in the same sentence in terms of acting ability. But both did their jobs well in this film, and to dismiss Stallone based more off of "Stop! Or My Mom Will Shoot!" or any of his later crap is unfair to this film.

 

[jmt225]

Come on. Sylvester Stallone has always been criticized for his acting abilities, the only other actor that is made fun of more is probably Arnold.

Yeah, but both Stallone and Arnold have been apart of some of the greatest movies ever made, and their acting had a lot to do with it. Seriously, who could've been a better Terminator? And God I hope you don't claim that the Terminator movies are shit.

Stallone has never been a very good actor, and his acting in Rocky, while suitable, could easily have been replicated by many an actor. You want to see a job of great acting in the portrayal of a boxer? Watch Raging Bull. That's 100 times the boxing movie Rocky could ever hope to be.

Dude, Jake LaMotta and Rocky Balboa couldn't be any more opposite. How can you make that comparison?

And for the record, out of my own personal preference, I would say Raging Bull is a better film then Rocky. I absolutely love that fucking movie. And yes, De Niro’s performance > Stallone's, but the 'boxing' aspect had nothing to do with me feeling that way. De Niro's psycho tendencies is just more entertaining then Stallone's loveable, brain-damaged moron.

It was more of a figure of speech, but any time you're comparing two films you're obviously comparing the acting in both films inherently. And in that comparison, Jack Nicholson is so unbelievably miles ahead of Sylvester Stallone in his acting ability it's just downright sad. I don't mean to sound like a dick, but do you honestly think that Sylvester Stallone is a better actor than Jack Nicholson? Stallone couldn't even tie Jack's shoelaces.

Well, I don't think you'll find anyone who would ever claim Stallone is anywhere close to being in Jack Nicholson's league when it comes to acting. However, when it comes to the two films in question, Stallone wins in my opinion. In fact, just look at the sequels. The sequel for Chinatown was both a box-office and critical failure, whereas the Rocky sequels are all memorable.

Well atleast we can all agree on the fact that Burgess Meredith is the bomb-diggity.

Damn straight.

It doesn't have to be catered to an intellectual crowd, that's not what I meant. But every time I watch Rocky I find myself laughing at some of the one-liners this movie offers. Not that one-liners can't be good, but in comparison to some of the classic scenes in Chinatown's dialogue, I don't think Rocky can even compare.

Eh, I guess you have a point. But I don't know, Rocky just has such a magical plot and is written in such a way where you buy into it.

As you mention later in your post, the only area that Rocky is superior to Chinatown in is the music. That's it. What other aspects of Rocky are better? The acting? No way. Jack Nicholson, Faye Dunaway, and John Huston are all in Chinatown.

Without saying the actors are all-around better in Rocky then they are those folks, I think I can justifiably claim that their performances in Rocky can be compared to the performances in Chinatown. There's not a performance in Rocky where someone didn't nail their part to perfection. Shire was fucking perfect at the insecure lady Rocky falls for. Burt Young played a drunk to perfection. And so on and so on.

The only truly excellent actor in Rocky is Burgess Meredith. Who else does Rocky have? Carl Weathers? Nothing says great acting like Carl Weathers.

Hey man, who are you to doubt Carl Weathers? Have you not seen Happy Gilmore?

Seriously though, while Weathers isn't that good of an actor, he nailed the black, arrogant athlete to perfection. Sure, it's not that hard of a role, but he did it and did it really well. It's not like he came off like the black dude in Enter the Dragon. And I love Enter the Dragon, but come on.

The directing? Polanski is miles and miles ahead of Avildsen, who don't get me wrong is a good director, but he doesn't have even a quarter of the vision and creativity of Roman Polanski.

I agree with you here. While The Karate Kid is one of my favorite movies of all time, there's no way I could ever claim Avildsen is a better director then Polanski or that his work on Rocky was better then Polanski's work on Chinatown. Like I said earlier, Rocky was an easy movie to shoot, whereas Chinatown I'm sure took a lot of imagination and hard work to make it a success, and Polanski did just that and deserves credit for it.

I'm sorry but that's just false. How does the fact that Rocky's plot appeals to a wider audience make the screenplay better than Chinatown's? By that logic we can assume that High School Musical 3's writing is better then Citizen Kane's because it appeals to a wider audience? Sorry, but that's utterly false.

How can you compare Rocky to High School Musical 3? Two years from now, High School Musical 3 won't even be remembered. However, 50 years from now people will still be singing the praise of Rocky.

What? Come on man, Jack is miles ahead of Stallone, Faye Dunaway is light years ahead of Talia Shire. The only comparable acting is that of Huston & Meredith, both of whom were among the elite actors of their generation. But in no way shape or form are the two main characters of Rocky better actors then two main characters of Chinatown. Absolutely false.

Yes, at all-round acting, but I wouldn't put those people's performances in Chinatown 'light years' ahead of the performances in Rocky. I just wouldn't.

The setting has nothing to do with the cinematography, I'm speaking of the way the camera is used in both films, not the settings that they film.

Fair enough, but like I said, I believe Chinatown had a much higher budget to work with then Rocky did, and you have to add that factor in.

That's a rather brash statement. Who's to say that? If true stories were more touching (and thus, more appealing) to an audience, then why is it that fiction outsells non-fiction 100 to 1? (Just an exaggeration, I have no idea the actual ratio). Fictional stories can be just as touching and moving as a true story, because it isn't whether or not the story is true that makes something emotional/dramatic. It's the story itself that determines that, not it's basis in fact or fiction.

Okay, let's say you're right here, then how about the fact that most movies based on a true story don't succeed well, but Rocky has been this huge phenomenon. Doesn't that speak highly of the film's accomplishments and the quality of it?

I'll agree with you that Rocky is one of the movies that people find uplifting and inspirational; that's the point of the whole film. But that's a rather unfair way to compare the two films. The only way that would be a fair comparison would be if Chinatown was meant to be an uplifting and inspirational story too. But it's not. You can't compare two completely different tones of a film as though both were reaching for the same goal and one did so better then the other. It's unfair.

Eh, I guess that's true. Good point.

Besides, Chinatown's plot is much deeper and more engrossing then Rocky's is. There are thousand movies just like Rocky; there's only one Chinatown.

True, but you have to admit that even though there are a thousand movies just like Rocky, there's still only one Rocky. No one has been able to recreate the magic Stallone and co. did with that picture and it deserves a lot of credit for that.

Just because you yourself were not impacted by Chinatown doesn't make that the universal rule. Chinatown is so much more then a whodunit picture, and so much deeper then that. The underlying tones of the film are what makes it linger in you; Jack Nicholson's symbolic search for the truth; John Huston's ability to somehow make a scumbag almost sympathetic to the audience; Faye Dunaway's character, one who's motives and inspirations become more and more evident as the film passes on, like layers of a cake. Chinatown stays with you because everything isn't solved and wrapped up into a pretty little picture like Rocky is. At the end of Rocky, though he loses the fight, he is still seen as a winner and metaphorically runs off into the sunset with his blushing bride. At the end of Chinatown we're left to dissect the true motives and meanings on our own; everything is not going to be all right.

You're right; I shouldn't have put it like that. But it is that way to me, anyway.

I was only really comparing the genre of sports films because thats the genre that IC25 labeled it as. I agree with you that it's much more than just a sports film, but even as a drama, it doesn not hold a candle to the drama involved in Chinatown. There's no comparison. What's Rocky's biggest dilemma in the film? To win a boxing match? Compared to a story of conspiracy, murder, and incest? Chinatown's dramatic elements are much, much stronger then Rocky's.

Well, I think there's much more to Rocky then just winning a boxing match. It's about him becoming a better person (you know, with the overtone of him being a collector for the mob and that sort of stuff) and getting the love of his life. Yeah, very typical for a movie, but still... not many movies have been able to do it as well as Rocky did.

But I'll give you the statement that Chinatown is more creative and original then Rocky. However, that doesn't make it the better film, in my opinion.

And no, Rocky is not the superior film. 99.9% of all film critics would disagree with you on that, as would most people with an extensive knowledge of film.

I wouldn't say 99.9%, maybe 75%, lol. However, most of the general public would agree with me I believe.

Very true. I'm not sure we've been quite introduced, but I'm not exactly known as Mr. Happy Respect Your Opinion guy. I'm trying to reverse that. There's obviously no actual tangible way for us to literally prove that one film is superior to the other. All we have are our opinions of the films and how we explain those opinions.

You've actually already "revoked my 'movie-fan' card" because I didn't like Fargo, lol.

But yeah.. not to sound like a stalker, but I always make sure to check out your post whenever you occasionally drop in. They're always, in some form or another, entertaining. Even if you would have called me a moron and all that stuff in this post, I wouldn't have been able get mad because you've most likely would've done it in a way to make me chuckle, as gay as that sounds. Your rants are always enjoyable to read.

But enough of kissing your ass, time to get back to the greatness that is Rocky.

And I understand that because we already went over the fact that Rocky reaches a broader audience then Chinatown does. Obviously pop culture is going to reference an uplifting inspirational story more often then a story about incest and murder, because Chinatown makes some people uncomfortable. It breaks taboos, something Rocky can't attest to.

True, but you also have movies like The Crying Game and Deliverance that "break taboos" and are still more remembered then Chinatown. Whereas like you said, there are thousands of films that share the same underdog-like story Rocky has, but none of them come close to the recognition Rocky gets.

Rocky really isn't nearly as quotable as a movie as you seem to infer. Not saying that Chinatown or Citizen Kane is either, but neither is Rocky. What's the one line everyone remember from Rocky? "Adriaaaannn!". That's it. You'd be hard pressed to find another oft-quoted passage from the film. But really the quotability of a film has almost nothing to do with the quality of the film.

Sitting here thinking about it, you're right. Most of the quotable moments from Rocky comes from the sequels.

Already explained why Rocky appeals to a wider audience, and why that alone doesn't make it a superior film. By that logic High School Musical 3 is a work of genius and deserves an Academy Award.

But it's not the same logic. There's just a huge difference in the impact Rocky made then the one High School Musical could ever dream of doing.

Oh I totally agree with you on that, IMDB is full of many a dumbass. But then again, the general movie-going population is full of many a dumbass. I was only using IMDB as a way to show that Chinatown is much much more highly regarded then Rocky is by a large amount of people. Idiots or not, they're still people.

I guess so, but God damn I hate IMDB.

I agree with you that the movie is regarded as a classic and is important (I for one don't consider it to be any more classic then say Die Hard or Red Dawn, but thats just my opinion) but it's very arguable to say Rocky was more important then Chinatown.

Nothing really to add here except to say I think Die Hard sucks and I can't believe you would compare it to Rocky.

Again, as you said so yourself, this is all subjective. But why is it that people try to make it seem like critic's opinions don't mean shit? These people are experts in film (well some of them are; not all), wouldn't you trust an expert's opinion on their respective field of work? And the fact is that Chinatown is much more respected among hardcore film fans and critics alike then Rocky is, and not only that, but it's a better film. I believe I've given all the evidence I can to quote unquote "prove" that.

Roger Ebert is one guy I make sure to check out on his website every couple of weeks, but that's really it. Like, I'll go to Wikipedia and check out a movie I just watched to learn some shit on it or whatever, and I always see the critical reception on these films and it just blows my mind by some of the shit I read there (Rotten Tomatoes, specifically). New York guys piss me off the most, but most of these clowns just come across as bitter assholes who think they could've done a better job then the director or writer or actors. In some cases I'm sure they could've, but in some cases, I'm sure YOU could have too.

And I'm genuinely curious, how does one become an expert in film without actually ever being in it?

 

[X]

Yeah, but both Stallone and Arnold have been apart of some of the greatest movies ever made, and their acting had a lot to do with it. Seriously, who could've been a better Terminator? And God I hope you don't claim that the Terminator movies are shit.

Oh hell no, of course the Terminator films are great. But the role that Arnold plays in those films are probably the easiest role an actor could play, apart from playing a tree or a bush. All he has to do is look serious and hurt stuff. If Seagal can do it, anyone can.

Dude, Jake LaMotta and Rocky Balboa couldn't be any more opposite. How can you make that comparison?

Because they're both boxing movies.

Well, I don't think you'll find anyone who would ever claim Stallone is anywhere close to being in Jack Nicholson's league when it comes to acting. However, when it comes to the two films in question, Stallone wins in my opinion.

I don't quite understand this statement. You start off by saying Nicholson is the better actor, and then saying that Stallone's acting in Rocky is better then Nicholson's in Chinatown. Which just isn't true.

In fact, just look at the sequels. The sequel for Chinatown was both a box-office and critical failure, whereas the Rocky sequels are all memorable.

That is an absolutely preposterous way to compare two films. This is not a discussion about the sequels to these films, ONLY the originals. And how does the fact that Chinatown's sequel, which Polanski was not involved in, was a critical/commercial failure make Rocky better because it's sequels were successful? Oh and by the way, the last couple of Rocky movies were ripped into shreds by critics.

But still, that argument you've just made has absolutely NOTHING to do with the two original films. Nothing.

Without saying the actors are all-around better in Rocky then they are those folks, I think I can justifiably claim that their performances in Rocky can be compared to the performances in Chinatown. There's not a performance in Rocky where someone didn't nail their part to perfection. Shire was fucking perfect at the insecure lady Rocky falls for. Burt Young played a drunk to perfection. And so on and so on.

I understand what you're saying. Shire was more then adequate, Burt Young was great. I'm not saying that those actors were bad. I'm saying they weren't as good as the actors in Chinatown. Talia Shire does not compare to Faye Dunaway. Burt Young does not compare to John Huston. And Sylvester Stallone does not compare to Jack Nicholson.

How can you compare Rocky to High School Musical 3? Two years from now, High School Musical 3 won't even be remembered. However, 50 years from now people will still be singing the praise of Rocky.

I wasn't comparing them, I was showing you why your logic was flawed. You claim that Rocky is a better film because it appeals to a wider audience, and I took that EXACT LOGIC you just said, and applied it to two different films. If what you've just said is true, then by your own logic, High School Musical 3 is a better film then Citizen Kane because it appeals to a larger audience. That is the exact definition you gave me for why Rocky is better.

Okay, let's say you're right here, then how about the fact that most movies based on a true story don't succeed well, but Rocky has been this huge phenomenon. Doesn't that speak highly of the film's accomplishments and the quality of it?

I don't know where you're getting your facts from, but movies claiming to be based on true stories are ENORMOUSLY successful. Titanic is the most successful film of all time. Blair Witch Project is the most profitable film in the history of movies. Both promoted the fact that their films were based on true stories (obviously BWP wasn't a true story, but it was still advertized as such). I mean, I hate to sound like a dick here, but you are INCREDIBLY wrong.

You've actually already "revoked my 'movie-fan' card" because I didn't like Fargo, lol.

Lol, Sorry about that. I hereby give you back your movie-fan card. Hold onto it tightly and never let go!

But yeah.. not to sound like a stalker, but I always make sure to check out your post whenever you occasionally drop in. They're always, in some form or another, entertaining. Even if you would have called me a moron and all that stuff in this post, I wouldn't have been able get mad because you've most likely would've done it in a way to make me chuckle, as gay as that sounds. Your rants are always enjoyable to read.

Thanks man, I'm glad you enjoy my posts. I'll keep writin' em, you keep readin' em (in the words of the eternal Stan Lee in Mallrats).

But it's not the same logic. There's just a huge difference in the impact Rocky made then the one High School Musical could ever dream of doing.

You never said anything about Rocky's impact. All you said was "Rocky is a better film because it's story appeals to a wider audience". By that logic, HSM is a better film then Citizen Kane because, just as you've said, HSM appeals to a wider audience. I've used your logic perfectly here, and there's no way around that. Show me what other way one could interpret your statement.

Nothing really to add here except to say I think Die Hard sucks and I can't believe you would compare it to Rocky.

DIE HARD SUCKS?!?!??!??!!!!! BLASPHEMY! I'M TAKING THAT MOVIE-FAN CARD BACK!

Roger Ebert is one guy I make sure to check out on his website every couple of weeks, but that's really it.

Wow, really? I find that odd considering your sig pic includes pictures of Jason, and Roger Ebert launched a massive campaign in the 80s to ban all of the F13 films, and all slasher films really in general, calling them the reason for violent murders, etc. Ebert is a total fucking bafoon.

And I'm genuinely curious, how does one become an expert in film without actually ever being in it?

By studying it. Just as a history expert doesn't have to have been in World War 2 to be an expert in WW2 history.

Hope this post isn't totally ignored considering this matchup ended weeks ago and Rocky won.