WWE Miami, Round 1, Match 7: #11 Kane vs. #54 Frank Gotch
- Thread starter Shocky
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I'm sure Gelgarin or Shadow know a lot more than I do, but Frank Gotch was a straight shoot wrestler from before Hogan was even born. He was "heel", before wrestling was even scripted. He'd fight anyone, at any time, anywhere they wanted. And, he usually won. In a match with Kane, I think he'd win, but only because he'd work as stiff as ever, and Kane wouldn't know how to work it. I love Kane. He's one of m all-time favorites. But his offense is based around being dominant, and you can't be dominant when the guy won't go down, as is constantly no-selling your moves.
I won't be upset if/when Kane wins, obviously, but my vote will go to Gotch.
I won't be upset if/when Kane wins, obviously, but my vote will go to Gotch.
I'm not going to vote due to a complete lack of knowledge on Gotch, but people have to watch Kane matches from his first couple of years, his Rumble in 2001 and the tlc tag match he won by himself. On those performances no one could live with him, and he should go far in this tournament. I expect Kane to win as a lot of people will vote for him without knowing who Gotch is.
klunderbunker
Welcome to My (And Not Sly's) House
Talk about opposite styles. Good grief these two couldn't be more different. I think I'm going to go with Gotch here. Kane will win, but Gotch would wrestle circles around him as he would probably turn it into a shoot where he could dominate Kane.
Gotch would work stiff on Kane. Eventually, Kane would get fed up with it and begin to legitimately kick Frank Gotch's ass all over the ring. Frank Gotch was 5'11 and 210 pounds. Kane is a foot taller and outweighs Gotch by 100 pounds. Klunder said that gotch would dominate Kane in a shoot. No, no he wouldn't. Kane would toss Gotch around like a play thing.
Little Jerry Lawler
Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids
Gotch was one of the first heels in wrestling and if I'm considering Kane's prime to be 1997-2001 then I still think Gotch has him beat. All Kane had was power and pretty much nothing else. He will have trouble with a technical wrestler such as Gotch so I'm picking Frank over Kane.
Why would he have trouble with a guy that weighs a hundred pounds less than him and is under six foot, Little Jerry? Most have agreed that Gotch would likely turn it into a shoot. If that were the case, would you not pick the man that is much bigger?
I didn't want to do this. I was going to hold back on pushing Frank Gotch on account of him being a 6ft tall, 200lb cunt.
Gotch was a jerk. It's hard to find a single Frank Gotch anecdote that doesn't put him across as being a jerk. Unfortunately, the assertion that The Big Red Machine could take Gotch in a shoot contest is just too idiotic to pass up.
People need to get it into their heads that size does not automatically equate the victory. I'm not a combat veteran, but I've spoken to a few, and they've frequently put over the value of an obscure talent known as "Knowing how to fight". Gotch does. Kane doesn't, he was too busy getting an education to learn.
Gotch was almost totally legit. There's no evidence that any of his matches were worked. So, in a legitimate sporting contest, Gotch retained the world championship for five years. (as opposed to Kane's reign, which totalled closer to five hours) The second Kane goes anywhere neat the mat, Gotch breaks some fingers, and then chokes him out.
Gotch was a jerk. It's hard to find a single Frank Gotch anecdote that doesn't put him across as being a jerk. Unfortunately, the assertion that The Big Red Machine could take Gotch in a shoot contest is just too idiotic to pass up.
People need to get it into their heads that size does not automatically equate the victory. I'm not a combat veteran, but I've spoken to a few, and they've frequently put over the value of an obscure talent known as "Knowing how to fight". Gotch does. Kane doesn't, he was too busy getting an education to learn.
Gotch was almost totally legit. There's no evidence that any of his matches were worked. So, in a legitimate sporting contest, Gotch retained the world championship for five years. (as opposed to Kane's reign, which totalled closer to five hours) The second Kane goes anywhere neat the mat, Gotch breaks some fingers, and then chokes him out.
I don't know howGotch would do in a professional wrestling match. Admittedly, you have to think he'd win if he turned it into a shoot and got Kane down, but how would he do that in the first place. There's a reason superheavyweights don't fight middleweights in boxing, and the same logic has to apply. Kane is strong enough to lift up the Big Show, even if Gotch was working stiff he would be able to pick him up and drop him down.
Gotch wouldn't know how to bump, and would probably get injured. Gotch is not a professional wrestler and he's up against one of the strongest men in WWE of the last ten years. Kane has to win.
Gotch wouldn't know how to bump, and would probably get injured. Gotch is not a professional wrestler and he's up against one of the strongest men in WWE of the last ten years. Kane has to win.
Gelgarin, Kane is huge. None of the people that Gotch faced were nearly big or strong as Kane is. Gotch could try to choke Kane out, but Kane could easily overpower him and break the hold. If Gotch started to legitimately attack Kane, Kane would pick him up and throw him. I fully believe that punches from Gotch would not hurt Kane as much as punches from Kane would hurt Gotch.
Frank Goth was a competent boxer. The assertion that Kane could shrug off his blows 90lb weight advantage is laughable. Obviously, Gotch isn't actually going to turn this into a boxing match, but Kane has no major striking advantage.
With your claim that Kane would simply pick Gotch up and throw him, you've pretty much demonstrated exactly why Gotch would win in any shoot fight. Picking people up and throwing them isn't a valid fighting technique. Kane has no martial arts background, no serious wrestling or fighting experience. The second he attempted any kind of close quarters grapple, Gotch would simply drop him to the mat and proceed to decimate him.
Gotch is an absolute master of ballence and leverage, there is no reason he can't take down a bigger opponent, and as I already pointed out, once Kane is on the ground, he is dead.
Gotch fought legitimate contests that went on for hours, he's not going to fall to a couple of quick smacks from anyone. Who wins this contest is up for debate, but who would win is a shoot fight is frankly a laughable question.
"During his time in Alaska, Gotch tried his hand at boxing, but failed miserably against the heavyweight Frank Slavin." He was not a competent boxer.
I've just read Frank Gotches wikipedia article. I'm quite impressed. He reigned as champion for five years, was invited to the White House, and drew a crowd of 37,000. He oiled his body before matches, payed people to injure his opponents, and double-crossed his opponents during the match. The guy was a douche, but I'm now a fan. He did whatever it took to win. In a WWE ring, I still think that Kane would pick up the win. If Gotch began to take things into his own hands, I'm sure that could win, but there'd be serious repercussions. I don't think that in this day and age, he'd be able to get away with that kind of thing. Thanks for debating this with me, Gelgarin. I've learned something.
I've just read Frank Gotches wikipedia article. I'm quite impressed. He reigned as champion for five years, was invited to the White House, and drew a crowd of 37,000. He oiled his body before matches, payed people to injure his opponents, and double-crossed his opponents during the match. The guy was a douche, but I'm now a fan. He did whatever it took to win. In a WWE ring, I still think that Kane would pick up the win. If Gotch began to take things into his own hands, I'm sure that could win, but there'd be serious repercussions. I don't think that in this day and age, he'd be able to get away with that kind of thing. Thanks for debating this with me, Gelgarin. I've learned something.
Gotch was a legitimate wrestler as Gel said. That however will be his downfall. Kane is quite possibly the strongest man in wrestling right now, and Gotch does not know how to take a bump. Kane would at least get a few moves in, and Gotch not knowing how to spot them, will get legitimately hurt. Only way Gotch has a chance to win is if he chops Kane down on the mat. If that happens it's over in a heartbeat. Kane wins here in a very good match.
This is why I didn't want the pioneers in this, especially Gotch and Hackenschmidt, because no one can properly contextualize what those guys did for the business. It was completely different time, and a completely different sport. Sure, Gotch was a great shooter, but that's not what wrestling has been now for the better part of a half of a century.
I'm going with Kane. The guy was a genuine beast. Sure, the man failed with bad gimmick after bad gimmick,b ut he found the right shoe, and it has fit ever since. Kayfabe wise, the man has taken a wrench, caught on fire, and almost anything terrible has happened to him. A guy that hangs on his leg isn't going to bother him.
I'm going with Kane. The guy was a genuine beast. Sure, the man failed with bad gimmick after bad gimmick,b ut he found the right shoe, and it has fit ever since. Kayfabe wise, the man has taken a wrench, caught on fire, and almost anything terrible has happened to him. A guy that hangs on his leg isn't going to bother him.
SuperSteve16
Pre-Show Stalwart
kane easily
Shadowmancer
I am The Last Baron
Gotch was a Cunt but he was world Champ. fuck the stories about him include paying people to take out Hackenscmidt before their rematch for the Title. I agree with Shockey in saying that the pioneers as defined by the PWHOF should not be in this thing because not only do we have no true context for it, we have no video footage to watch. But to say that Kane wins this easily is ignorant and best and fucking moronic at best as well, Im not going to plumb the depths of the worst of what it can be. Gotch while not being allowed to use his boxing background could also legitimately use his technique to reduce kane to a Big Red blubbering Machine. Chokeslam would be reversed into an Armlock simple as that. Kane may be bigger but Gotch is legit.
Glen Jacobs the man has shootfighting experience wrestling in Japan so Gotch doesnt really have that advantage over him as a 7ft over 300 pound cunt trained in any form of fighting is gonna knock the shit out of most people. All of that size isnt everything talk is fine but some people are so big I cant really think of anything else that matters. Also seriously have you ever seen Kane punch, fake it does not look. So in a shoot Kane takes it for me.
In a fake match which is what this is Kane's early character takes this, victories over guys like Vader is not something to be sniffed at, 3 Tombstones it took to put him down and he still got up and clubbed Taker with a chair after the match. Add in the fact that Kane tosses people Gotch's size around like rag-dolls and I cant think of much of an argument on Gotch's favour.
Although this would be a far cry from the squash match that people are talking about.
In a fake match which is what this is Kane's early character takes this, victories over guys like Vader is not something to be sniffed at, 3 Tombstones it took to put him down and he still got up and clubbed Taker with a chair after the match. Add in the fact that Kane tosses people Gotch's size around like rag-dolls and I cant think of much of an argument on Gotch's favour.
Although this would be a far cry from the squash match that people are talking about.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Who gives a shit how "Legit" Frank Gotch was. If you want to see how Kane deals with wrestlers of superior technique, watch his feud with Chris Beniot in 2004 for the world title. Beniot threw everything he had at Kane during those matches and his offense did very little to affect him, hell, even the crossface couldn't stop Kane, he simply stood up and broke it as if the move were child's play. What hope does Gotch have then? As many have already pointed out, Gotch was a prideful douche that desired every conceivable advantage going into a match. If during a match he came to realize that everything he threw at his opponent, his tricks, and even his technique, had no affect then where would that leave Gotch? My guess is that it would leave a big gaping hole in Gotch's game and he begin to get sloppy, probably out of fear, and then Kane would capitalize. I see Kane winning this match either by Tombstone or by Chokeslam somewhere around the ten minute mark.
Winner Kane.
Winner Kane.
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