Why did HBK go over Jericho at WM19?

[Irishock]

One of the all time great matches with a finish that I still don't understand to this day.

Shawn already proved that he was in his groove again by putting on classics at SummerSlam 02 and Survivor 2002. He was already considered one of the best ever at this point, so there was no reason for him to go over.

Jericho on the other hand needed a WrestleMania moment (that he still doesn't have to this day) after 3 unmemorable performances. He held his ground against Michaels, but he didn't win the match. Even though Jericho had already won the Undisputed title a year prior to this match, he wasn't even close to HBK's level, even 5 years after Michaels's back injury. So why the hell did he not go over?

 

[pepentorresHHH]

Because it was his first wrestlemania back from injury? Yes he was the babyface but heels can win at Wrestlemania too..... But mostly the comeback factor..... Jericho had a great year in 02 but lost track towards the end as far as not being in the main event anymore while Shawn returned and stayed on top..... When this two met in their young vs old "shawn michaels" match the original BARELY won..... It wasnt a decisive win, he got lucky he pinned jericho after such a battle that left both men looking like equals but it was shawns first wm since 98

 

[Y 2 Jake]

I can't imagine WWE thought HBK would come back in 2002 and then wrestle for another 8 years. Maybe they thought that it'd be HBK's last Mania match.

Regardless, Jericho shouldn't have won and the final image from the match is HBK clutching his testicles. So Jericho went out on top.

 

[Irishock]

Because it was his first wrestlemania back from injury? Yes he was the babyface but heels can win at Wrestlemania too..... But mostly the comeback factor..... Jericho had a great year in 02 but lost track towards the end as far as not being in the main event anymore while Shawn returned and stayed on top..... When this two met in their young vs old "shawn michaels" match the original BARELY won..... It wasnt a decisive win, he got lucky he pinned jericho after such a battle that left both men looking like equals but it was shawns first wm since 98

Jericho losing track towards the end of 02 is part of the reason why should've gone over. Even in Jericho's book it sounds like he wasn't completely happy about his performance in the WWE up until that point.

And the finish-- yes it was an even battle and it wasn't a decisive win, but when you have that kind of a finish it should be the younger, heel coming out on top, a la Bret putting Owen over at WM10. What the fuck's the point of Michaels rolling up Jericho when Michaels is the more accomplished guy and the heavier favourite going into the match? It didn't do anything for Jericho at all.

 

[Brothervis]

because HHH was going to beat Booker T in the next match.Clique was in full force burying future potential talent.CM Punk was lucky to being in a big fish in a small pond like he is now because if two guys who are more talented than CM Punk got buried what would happen to Punk.

 

[Kidpolean]

because HHH was going to beat Booker T in the next match.Clique was in full force burying future potential talent.CM Punk was lucky to being in a big fish in a small pond like he is now because if two guys who are more talented than CM Punk got buried what would happen to Punk.

burying future potential talent? Jericho was already an established star at that point in his career....Fact is nobody should ever lose their comeback Wrestlemania match especially a guy that a large amount of people consider the best ever

 

[uvx]

Michaels won as it was his first Mania in 5 years, which was the right decision. Jericho also left the match looking good after low blowing Shawn.

 

[byrnside]

Didn't do anything for Jericho? Jericho went toe-to-toe with arguably the best wrestler of all time and barely lost due to a rollup. In spite of being the first Undisputed Champion and beating The Rock and Stone Cold in the same night, I'll argue that Jericho was still an up and comer at that point. I also don't think that match would've been nearly as good had the finish been different. I think there are several factors that several people have already touched on. The first of which being that it was Michaels's first 'Mania back, and well, he is Mr. Wrestlemania. Typically the face goes over at Wrestlemania and wins in the end. And finally, as Jake said, Michaels walked out of that arena clutching his testicles.

 

[Sweettre15]

It was Michaels' first mania back and that's why he got the win...No politics etc. Notice that Shawn started losing Wrestlemanias in the subsequent years regardless of who his opponents were and also notice that during Jericho's second feud with Michaels, he came out with more wins then losses against him. He even beat Shawn in a WHC title defense. If Shawn was the asshole he used to be he would have made sure he won all of those matches and took the WHC from Jericho.

 

[Headman]

I guess we're at the point where the bigger more established star should never win the big match. Have we really come to that? I can't think of a single reason HBK shouldn't have beaten Jericho. And I highly doubt Jericho's career would have been altered one bit had he won instead.

 

[TheLittleOne]

i believe it worked best for what the company wanted to do with jericho at the time.. haveing Y2J Lose then both engage in a show of respect which was very emotional and believable due to the pre- match hype displaying Jericho as a lifelong HBK Fan... then to "stoop as low" to give a Low Blow and disrespected one of the most respected vetrans as well as one of his idols helped shoot Jericho in2 a arrogant heel again since he was very over previously as a babyface because of all his sillyness with stephanie ( nicknames) and his huge achievemant ( 1st ever undisputed champ in business ) even tho the title win he was a heel, i feel chris needed to lose, and be the SORE LOSER to give him that type of HEEL run.. not the monster heel, not the confident cm punk heel, the " hit u from behind then run" heel... of course chris could work amazing, but BOTTOM LINE is i would have only booked Jericho to win if the company wanted Jericho to be a babyface. simple.

in most of the boys minds, wins and losses dont always matter, the way that match was booked , both guys looked strong, it could have went either way, HBK went over, while Chris got over..

 

[SilverBullet1929]

I think Shawn was still in "part-time" mode. He "needed" to have one last big WMania win and one win to send him off into the sunset just in case he didn't have another WMania match. Luckily for us he had many more and excellent ones but I don't think we could have predicted that in 2003. Jericho, it would have been nice for him to win it but he was a smarmy pain the rear heel who didn't "need" to win and also, you just knew he'd have more WMania matches in the future. I questioned this myself, good topic btw, but I'm more than happy with accepting how it happened.

Besides, the post match kick in the balls was enough of a last laugh for Jericho in my eyes. A perfect exclamation point to a show stealing classic!

 

[hbkhhh44]

I think Shawn was still in "part-time" mode. He "needed" to have one last big WMania win and one win to send him off into the sunset just in case he didn't have another WMania match. Luckily for us he had many more and excellent ones but I don't think we could have predicted that in 2003. Jericho, it would have been nice for him to win it but he was a smarmy pain the rear heel who didn't "need" to win and also, you just knew he'd have more WMania matches in the future. I questioned this myself, good topic btw, but I'm more than happy with accepting how it happened.

Besides, the post match kick in the balls was enough of a last laugh for Jericho in my eyes. A perfect exclamation point to a show stealing classic!

this. shawn was still on a very limited schedule at the time. it would be wasteful for shawn to wrestle only a few times a year and lose a majority of those times. like everyone else said both ended up looking great and arguably stealing the show

 

[d_henderson1810]

There's plenty of good reason for it! It's Shawn Michaels first-WM experience for the first time in five years. Mr Wrestlemania had come back to Wrestlemania! And this abscence wasn't some merely, "finding my smile" , absence from Wrestlemania. It was a return from dehabilitating injuries which sidelinded him for years, and he had returned "from the dead".

It gives a certain feeling when a recognised veteran, who has overcome so much, could be victorious.

I'm sure Jericho wouldn't have minded doing it. He does this all the time now, so would do it to his "hero"

But the thing I don't get is, this was brilliant match, (would be in my top 15 WM matches), and I loved every minute of it. Yet, instead of being caught out with the emotion of the moment, of a veteran being able to do it again on the big stage, instead of enjoying an all-out classic, where both men looked equals, you care about the result? WTF?

You people who have the philosophy that wrestler A must beat wrestler B or it won't be a good match and the up and comers is ruined, it's time a lot of you grew up. Don't diss on this match with me around!

 

[berlinbrawler]

There was absolutely nothing wrong with him not winning. HBK won because it was a crowd pleaser. People wanted to see HBK triumph and that's what they got.

Also, Jericho got his Wrestlemania moment. He got an awesome match with Mr. Wrestlemania himself and he got the last laugh when he kicked Michaels right in the plums afterwards. Everyone left happy that night (except for Michaels' plums, that is).

 

[Irishock]

this. shawn was still on a very limited schedule at the time. it would be wasteful for shawn to wrestle only a few times a year and lose a majority of those times. like everyone else said both ended up looking great and arguably stealing the show

He beat HHH in his return match and won the WHC at Survivor Series. I can argue that Michaels as a top guy had NEVER legitimately put over anyone at that point. Who could forget his BS antics in the 90s? Christ. It's a joke that he came back and immediately won 3 high profile matches. It was time for him to put over someone for once and Chris Jericho was the perfect guy for the rub. But he didn't do it.

It's the exact same thing with Triple H vs Booker T. The right man won

Christ, no. Booker T was fuckin' over and Hunter was still a glorified upper mid carder at that point.

There was absolutely nothing wrong with him not winning. HBK won because it was a crowd pleaser. People wanted to see HBK triumph and that's what they got.

Also, Jericho got his Wrestlemania moment. He got an awesome match with Mr. Wrestlemania himself and he got the last laugh when he kicked Michaels right in the plums afterwards. Everyone left happy that night (except for Michaels' plums, that is).

They had face Rock win, Hogan win, face Lesnar win as well. Michaels is not on that tier of star power, so him winning or losing wouldn't have done much for the casual fan.

 

[Sweettre15]

He beat HHH in his return match and won the WHC at Survivor Series. I can argue that Michaels as a top guy had NEVER legitimately put over anyone at that point. Who could forget his BS antics in the 90s? Christ. It's a joke that he came back and immediately won 3 high profile matches. It was time for him to put over someone for once and Chris Jericho was the perfect guy for the rub. But he didn't do it.

Yeah and then he lost several PPV matches after that. Noone has forgotten the Kliq politics, it's just that it was a non issue at the point because only HHH was using his backstage power at the time. It was Shawn's first big mania and the story surrounded the aspect of Jericho and Shawn Michaels being mirrors of each other so it only made sense that the "genuine article" won that match.

If Shawn was doing it to be a politicking asshole then he would have never let Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho(later down the line), Legacy etc get victories over him in ANY match he was involved in.

 

[Kidpolean]

He beat HHH in his return match and won the WHC at Survivor Series. I can argue that Michaels as a top guy had NEVER legitimately put over anyone at that point. Who could forget his BS antics in the 90s? Christ. It's a joke that he came back and immediately won 3 high profile matches. It was time for him to put over someone for once and Chris Jericho was the perfect guy for the rub. But he didn't do it.



Christ, no. Booker T was fuckin' over and Hunter was still a glorified upper mid carder at that point.



They had face Rock win, Hogan win, face Lesnar win as well. Michaels is not on that tier of star power, so him winning or losing wouldn't have done much for the casual fan.

Ok first off a wrestler is not a booker...if the wwe told HBK he was going to win the match than that is what he had to do. Wrestlers do not dictate if they win or lose matches (Remember Montreal). HBK can not just decide if he is going to lose. I dont understand why everyone on this board believes that wrestlers can just put over anyone at anytime whenever they feel like it. This is their job, you go to work an tell your boss that you are going to do whatever you want and see how long you keep that job.

Secondly...Rock was a Heel and Lesnar was more of a tweener. Neither were really a babyface at WM19. HHH should have won that match. Booker T was hot at the time but wasnt good enough to be a main eventer in the wwe, HHH has proven he could carry the company many times.

 

[Irishock]

Yeah and then he lost several PPV matches after that. Noone has forgotten the Kliq politics, it's just that it was a non issue at the point because only HHH was using his backstage power at the time. It was Shawn's first big mania and the story surrounded the aspect of Jericho and Shawn Michaels being mirrors of each other so it only made sense that the "genuine article" won that match.

If Shawn was doing it to be a politicking asshole then he would have never let Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, John Cena, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho(later down the line), Legacy etc get victories over him in ANY match he was involved in.

In that list, I think only Angle, Benoit and Cena have beaten Michaels clean 1 on 1. It's the same fucking deal with Helmsley during the same time. And some wrestlers like Helms and Kennedy have publicly stated that Michaels was pulling the same bullshit backstage that he was known for in the 90's. Helms in particular got a lot of thanks from former and current WWE workers for his comments on Michaels, and not a single apologist.

 

[Irishock]

Ok first off a wrestler is not a booker...if the wwe told HBK he was going to win the match than that is what he had to do. Wrestlers do not dictate if they win or lose matches (Remember Montreal). HBK can not just decide if he is going to lose. I dont understand why everyone on this board believes that wrestlers can just put over anyone at anytime whenever they feel like it. This is their job, you go to work an tell your boss that you are going to do whatever you want and see how long you keep that job.

Secondly...Rock was a Heel and Lesnar was more of a tweener. Neither were really a babyface at WM19. HHH should have won that match. Booker T was hot at the time but wasnt good enough to be a main eventer in the wwe, HHH has proven he could carry the company many times.

My first argument was that it was a bad decision by WWE to not have Jericho go over. I don't know if Michaels influenced this particular decision, even though he has had a pretty fucking nice track record of doing shit like that.

Both Rock and Lesnar were over as fuck during this time. It didn't matter if they weren't complete faces on camera. Rock in particular was still a major draw for the casuals. I doubt Michaels had even 1/100th of the guys in attendance that paid just to see him win.

And god, no. HHH is a solid worker but he has zero fucking charisma. Jim Cornette said it best: "I'd rather watch a dog lick his balls [than watch HHH cut promos]". Who knows how far Booker would've gotten had he won the title that night?

 

[Sweettre15]

In that list, I think only Angle, Benoit and Cena have beaten Michaels clean 1 on 1. It's the same fucking deal with Helmsley during the same time.

Batista beat Shawn in a Stretcher match.

Jericho beat Shawn by referee stoppage in a match, and he beat him in Ladder match at No Mercy for the WHC.

Randy beat Shawn in a "No Superkick" match and before that had put him out on injury.

Then Legacy exchanged victories with DX in a tag team feud.

If Shawn wanted to fuck them all over then he would have done what he did to Davey Boy and never let him beat him in any way, shape or form. You think Michaels couldn't have convinced HHH to let him bury those guys if he wanted to? He easily could have but didn't regardless of what Gregory Helms said about Shawn trying to "undercut" him and Kennedy yet they never complained about Orton getting Kennedy fired.

Even guys Shawn screwed like Tatanka admitted that Shawn had changed when he was interviewed about him.

 

[The Warlord]

Well there ya go TS, you said it yourself. "He's one of the best ever." Well shouldnt he end his career on a bright note by winning at a Wrestlemania? It was a great comeback story and everyone thought Shawns last run would end around that time. After the shit he went through at WM14...he deserved that victory.

But nobody ever would have guessed that he would last another 7 years after that.

 

[Eyebrows]

As mentioned, it was a crowd pleasing moment.

This idea that Jericho needed to be put over at all is ridiculous. He wasn't some up and coming guy that desperately needed a rub. Sure, his undisputed title run gets a lot of stick but he still had a main event run and he still managed to make his way back to the main event. I don't know what people expected for Jericho post-Mania but with Goldberg coming in and Evolution dominating Raw, Jericho wasn't going to be anywhere near the title for the rest of the year regardless of the result against Michaels.

Knowing the legitimate respect that Jericho has for Shawn and how much he enjoyed working with him both in 2003 and in 2008 I find it bizarre that people would take umbrage with Chris losing when the man himself probably didn't care and probably saw it as an honor to simply have the chance to go up against Michaels at Wrestlemania.

 

[Irishock]

Batista beat Shawn in a Stretcher match.

Jericho beat Shawn by referee stoppage in a match, and he beat him in Ladder match at No Mercy for the WHC.

Randy beat Shawn in a "No Superkick" match and before that had put him out on injury.

Then Legacy exchanged victories with DX in a tag team feud.

If Shawn wanted to fuck them all over then he would have done what he did to Davey Boy and never let him beat him in any way, shape or form. You think Michaels couldn't have convinced HHH to let him bury those guys if he wanted to? He easily could have but didn't regardless of what Gregory Helms said about Shawn trying to "undercut" him and Kennedy yet they never complained about Orton getting Kennedy fired.

Even guys Shawn screwed like Tatanka admitted that Shawn had changed when he was interviewed about him.

You just listed 4 non-clean finishes. Jesus H. Christ, man. When he came back, Shawn did most of his politics behind the scenes so no one would call him out for it if he did it in the ring.

Well there ya go TS, you said it yourself. "He's one of the best ever."

Which is another reason why he should've put over Chris Jericho. He owed it to the company after the shit he pulled in the mid-late 90s.

After the shit he went through at WM14...he deserved that victory.

Yeah, like him refusing to job to Austin until Undertaker stepped in and set the man straight. Christ, man.

 

[Sweettre15]

You just listed 4 non-clean finishes. Jesus H. Christ, man.

Clean or not if Shawn actually wanted to screw their careers over they wouldn't have gotten those "unclean" victories. Hell none of The Rock's victories over Mankind were clean but he still solidified himself as a main eventing heel. Not to mention that despite Rock's popularity, he would lose the WWF title not too long afterwards either against Stone Cold, HHH, Jericho, or Brock Lesnar. So in any case, those victories still made those guys look like a threat regardless of if they were "clean". Not to mention those victories happened without Shawn "getting his win back".

When he came back, Shawn did most of his politics behind the scenes so no one would call him out for it if he did it in the ring.

Got any actual evidence for this...Helms claimed that he tried to "undercut" him and Kennedy but he said nothing about Orton getting Kennedy fired or the rumors that people backstage thought Kennedy was sloppy in the ring. Undertaker(whom used to loathe Shawn) Steve Austin(who was still backstage during 2004 with Shawn due to still being an onscreen character), Tatanka, and Bret if Shawn changed as a person they'll say yes.

In any case, the storyline didn't lend itself to Jericho winning at Mania and if would have done nothing for him because he would have still had to take a backseat to Goldberg and Evolution.