Week 2: SavageTaker -versus- Fratelli
- Thread starter Mr. TM
- Start date
The word hardcore gets thrown around too much these days. I ask you, the members of the WrestleZone forum, what comes to mind when you hear the word ’Hardcore’.
The WCW hardcore championship? Meh, that wasn’t very hardcore in this writers opinion. WWE Extreme Rules PPV featuring such matches as Kane vs. Mark Henry in a lumberjack match and God damn Pudding brawls and Hog Pen bouts. Hardcore? Hardly.
Techno, hip hop and punk rock music is also widely referred to as hardcore. Or perhaps broken bricks, stone and/or other aggregate used as foundations? Or perhaps not.
When I hear the word hardcore, the 1st thing that comes to my mind is one of the most, if not arguably the defining moment in the history of professional wrestling, as Mick Foley wrestling as Mankind, was thrown off the top of a 16 foot Hell In The Cell, a broken body lay motionless in the shattered remains of what was previously a Spanish announce table.
The words echoed from Jim Ross’ mouth:
"Good God almighty! Good God almighty! That killed him! As God as my witness, he is broken in half!"
Indeed, many, including myself, believed he had been broken in half, maybe the spot was a huge mistake and should never have been alowed to take place. But Mick Foley, that sick son of a bitch, was able to do something unexpected, something unbelievable, something that made such an impact to the wrestling world as of that moment. He got back up off the stretcher, and demanded that the match continue. Despite having a separated shoulder, broken teeth, one of which went through his nose, dislocated jaw, a broken ankle and being knocked unconscious earlier in the night. Foley would work most of his career banged up, specifically with battered knees that plagued most of his later career.
Now tell me, that’s not God damn hardcore.
But Foley wasn’t just a one match wonder, a spot monkey if you will.
Foley was a huge asset to the wrestling world, and we can never repay him for what he did for us. How he made wrestling what it is today. Even if he will be universally remembered by some as a wrestler who could take a stinky, sweaty old gym sock, draw a smiley face on it, shove it down someone’s throat, make you actually believe it could actually trap a nerve in your mouth to stopping you biting down on his hand and have millions of people world wide scream in delight. Nobody but Mick Foley could have pulled that one off.
Foley was trained at Dominic DeNucci's wrestling school in Freedom, Pennsylvania, driving several hours weekly from his college campus in Cortland, New York,
He wrestled around the Indies as a youngster, trying to make a name for himself.
He finally got his big break on September 5th, 1991 in WCW. He debuted as Cactus Jack, his most famous and popular gimmick during his career.
We all are also aware of his insane matches in Europe, Japan and ECW. We all know about him ripping off his ear against Vader in Germany and his boiler room brawls and buried alive matches, etc. But this isn’t a history lesson, neither will I bore you with the facts of every great Foley match there was.
I want to help you understand why Mick Foley deserves to be considered a greater asset to profession wrestling to his opponent for this debate, The Ultimate Warrior.
Mick Foley has always been that insane bastard who would do anything to inflict pain on his opponent and to himself. Foley was really just an ordinary wrestling fan, just like me or you.
Foley PROVED that you don’t need performance or muscle enhancing drugs to become a fan favourite and a main event player. He showed us that all you need is to be a true wrestling fanatic, and have a bigger set of balls than the next guy, willing to do ANYTHING, and we can all agree that Foley would do anything, to make it as a pro wrestler.
An example of this are his famous IWA "King of the Death Match" tournament he competed in whilst in Japan. Each level of the tournament featured a new and deadly gimmick: Foley’s (Competing at the time as Cactus Jack) first round was a barbed-wire baseball bat, thumbtack death match, in which he defeated Terry Gordy; the second round was a barbed-wire board, bed of nails match where Cactus Jack defeated Shoji Nakamaki. The final, against Terry Funk, was a barbed-wire rope, barbed-wire and C4 board, time-bomb death match, which Cactus Jack won with help from Tiger Jeet Singh. After the match, both men were ravaged by the wire, and burned by the C4 explosions. Foley later said that he only received $300 for the entire night!!! Only a true wrestling fanatic would be willing to put their body on the line like that for the fans.
He helped popularise the already building reputation of hardcore wrestling in America when he joined a local, up and coming wrestling promotion, world widely known today as the original ECW in his 1st and 2nd stint with the company. His anti hardcore gimmick made him a real top heel within ECW, and made him a guy that the fans cared about. Cared about as in wanted to see the holy hell beaten out of him! But the thing was, the fans really knew deep down what the real Mick Foley was like, he was just like one of them and a true gent.
By the time the fans found out he was leaving for the WWF, they booed him every night, during every match and eventually, during his last ECW match with Mikey Whipwreck, they chanted together, “Please don’t go!”, they knew that Foley was a one of a kind, and they respected him. Foley preceded to thank the fans in an emotional farewell, and danced his way out of the arena with the Blue Meanie and Stevie Richards. His favourite wrestling moment.
Foley may be most famous for his insane bumps and crazy spots, but lets not forget the side of Mick Foley that really made him the legend he is today. The promos the man created were some of the best in pro wrestling history. His famous promo where he spat on the WCW tag team title belt whilst working in ECW is regarded an all time classic. And lets not forget the famous mankind promos he did: talking to his pet rat, pulling out his hair, shouting ‘Mommy’ during matches. And during his face turn we got the classic: McMahon in hospital, The Rock’s This is your Life, his classic ‘cheap pops’ and his hilarious role as commissioner.
Foley really raised the bar in terms of delivering a classic promo, and entertained us like no other.
But back to wrestling, Foley would always be willing to share the spotlight with his opponent, never one to complain or moan about having to do a job, no money issues, no creative control clauses or having to work with a certain wrestler. He bided his time and he was rewarded.
In his later years Foley really helped guys like Edge and Randy Orton make the final step up to the main event, with two classic hardcore bouts for a man of his age and condition. Foleys matches with both these men were instant classics and the best thing about both matches, is that we don’t remember who won the match, and really, it doesn’t matter. We remember both of these matches as an outstanding piece of wrestling art if you will, by Orton, Edge and Foley. No other wrestler could have made these matches they way they turned out.
Finally, Foley is subconsciously one of he main influences of any wrestler, hardcore or not. Guys like The Rock, DX and Chris Jericho, their promos were now having to be raised above the bar Foley had set, in the WWF and ECW. His promos delivered comedy gold which would have influenced the stars I mentioned, in a way they might not realise, but in the end, in a very important way.
On the wrestling front, we now have guys like Rob Van Dam, AJ Styles and maybe most famously Jeff Hardy, all trying to reach the bar Foley had set in terms of entertaining and shocking moments and spots in hardcore style matches. All these men have shocked us in ways that foley perhaps wouldn’t have been able to do himself (I doubt we would ever see Foley Swanton Bomb Bubba Ray Dudley through a table off a 20ft ladder!!!) but his Hell In A Cell match in particular, influenced these men to try and give the fans a more memorable moment, or at least something to wow and amaze them, just like Foley.
In conclusion, Foley was a greater asset to the world of wrestling than the Ultimate Warrior for the reasons I believe to be true. Foley, the gentle giant, was a great entertainer and a great family man, you could say he was ’The man we loved to love’..
Yes, maybe he was not the greatest mat wrestler in the world, but I’d rather pay to see him wrestle than many of the other wrestlers around now a-days.
And that’s something to be proud of in my mind.
The WCW hardcore championship? Meh, that wasn’t very hardcore in this writers opinion. WWE Extreme Rules PPV featuring such matches as Kane vs. Mark Henry in a lumberjack match and God damn Pudding brawls and Hog Pen bouts. Hardcore? Hardly.
Techno, hip hop and punk rock music is also widely referred to as hardcore. Or perhaps broken bricks, stone and/or other aggregate used as foundations? Or perhaps not.
When I hear the word hardcore, the 1st thing that comes to my mind is one of the most, if not arguably the defining moment in the history of professional wrestling, as Mick Foley wrestling as Mankind, was thrown off the top of a 16 foot Hell In The Cell, a broken body lay motionless in the shattered remains of what was previously a Spanish announce table.
The words echoed from Jim Ross’ mouth:
"Good God almighty! Good God almighty! That killed him! As God as my witness, he is broken in half!"
Indeed, many, including myself, believed he had been broken in half, maybe the spot was a huge mistake and should never have been alowed to take place. But Mick Foley, that sick son of a bitch, was able to do something unexpected, something unbelievable, something that made such an impact to the wrestling world as of that moment. He got back up off the stretcher, and demanded that the match continue. Despite having a separated shoulder, broken teeth, one of which went through his nose, dislocated jaw, a broken ankle and being knocked unconscious earlier in the night. Foley would work most of his career banged up, specifically with battered knees that plagued most of his later career.
Now tell me, that’s not God damn hardcore.
But Foley wasn’t just a one match wonder, a spot monkey if you will.
Foley was a huge asset to the wrestling world, and we can never repay him for what he did for us. How he made wrestling what it is today. Even if he will be universally remembered by some as a wrestler who could take a stinky, sweaty old gym sock, draw a smiley face on it, shove it down someone’s throat, make you actually believe it could actually trap a nerve in your mouth to stopping you biting down on his hand and have millions of people world wide scream in delight. Nobody but Mick Foley could have pulled that one off.
Foley was trained at Dominic DeNucci's wrestling school in Freedom, Pennsylvania, driving several hours weekly from his college campus in Cortland, New York,
He wrestled around the Indies as a youngster, trying to make a name for himself.
He finally got his big break on September 5th, 1991 in WCW. He debuted as Cactus Jack, his most famous and popular gimmick during his career.
We all are also aware of his insane matches in Europe, Japan and ECW. We all know about him ripping off his ear against Vader in Germany and his boiler room brawls and buried alive matches, etc. But this isn’t a history lesson, neither will I bore you with the facts of every great Foley match there was.
I want to help you understand why Mick Foley deserves to be considered a greater asset to profession wrestling to his opponent for this debate, The Ultimate Warrior.
Mick Foley has always been that insane bastard who would do anything to inflict pain on his opponent and to himself. Foley was really just an ordinary wrestling fan, just like me or you.
Foley PROVED that you don’t need performance or muscle enhancing drugs to become a fan favourite and a main event player. He showed us that all you need is to be a true wrestling fanatic, and have a bigger set of balls than the next guy, willing to do ANYTHING, and we can all agree that Foley would do anything, to make it as a pro wrestler.
An example of this are his famous IWA "King of the Death Match" tournament he competed in whilst in Japan. Each level of the tournament featured a new and deadly gimmick: Foley’s (Competing at the time as Cactus Jack) first round was a barbed-wire baseball bat, thumbtack death match, in which he defeated Terry Gordy; the second round was a barbed-wire board, bed of nails match where Cactus Jack defeated Shoji Nakamaki. The final, against Terry Funk, was a barbed-wire rope, barbed-wire and C4 board, time-bomb death match, which Cactus Jack won with help from Tiger Jeet Singh. After the match, both men were ravaged by the wire, and burned by the C4 explosions. Foley later said that he only received $300 for the entire night!!! Only a true wrestling fanatic would be willing to put their body on the line like that for the fans.
He helped popularise the already building reputation of hardcore wrestling in America when he joined a local, up and coming wrestling promotion, world widely known today as the original ECW in his 1st and 2nd stint with the company. His anti hardcore gimmick made him a real top heel within ECW, and made him a guy that the fans cared about. Cared about as in wanted to see the holy hell beaten out of him! But the thing was, the fans really knew deep down what the real Mick Foley was like, he was just like one of them and a true gent.
By the time the fans found out he was leaving for the WWF, they booed him every night, during every match and eventually, during his last ECW match with Mikey Whipwreck, they chanted together, “Please don’t go!”, they knew that Foley was a one of a kind, and they respected him. Foley preceded to thank the fans in an emotional farewell, and danced his way out of the arena with the Blue Meanie and Stevie Richards. His favourite wrestling moment.
Foley may be most famous for his insane bumps and crazy spots, but lets not forget the side of Mick Foley that really made him the legend he is today. The promos the man created were some of the best in pro wrestling history. His famous promo where he spat on the WCW tag team title belt whilst working in ECW is regarded an all time classic. And lets not forget the famous mankind promos he did: talking to his pet rat, pulling out his hair, shouting ‘Mommy’ during matches. And during his face turn we got the classic: McMahon in hospital, The Rock’s This is your Life, his classic ‘cheap pops’ and his hilarious role as commissioner.
Foley really raised the bar in terms of delivering a classic promo, and entertained us like no other.
But back to wrestling, Foley would always be willing to share the spotlight with his opponent, never one to complain or moan about having to do a job, no money issues, no creative control clauses or having to work with a certain wrestler. He bided his time and he was rewarded.
In his later years Foley really helped guys like Edge and Randy Orton make the final step up to the main event, with two classic hardcore bouts for a man of his age and condition. Foleys matches with both these men were instant classics and the best thing about both matches, is that we don’t remember who won the match, and really, it doesn’t matter. We remember both of these matches as an outstanding piece of wrestling art if you will, by Orton, Edge and Foley. No other wrestler could have made these matches they way they turned out.
Finally, Foley is subconsciously one of he main influences of any wrestler, hardcore or not. Guys like The Rock, DX and Chris Jericho, their promos were now having to be raised above the bar Foley had set, in the WWF and ECW. His promos delivered comedy gold which would have influenced the stars I mentioned, in a way they might not realise, but in the end, in a very important way.
On the wrestling front, we now have guys like Rob Van Dam, AJ Styles and maybe most famously Jeff Hardy, all trying to reach the bar Foley had set in terms of entertaining and shocking moments and spots in hardcore style matches. All these men have shocked us in ways that foley perhaps wouldn’t have been able to do himself (I doubt we would ever see Foley Swanton Bomb Bubba Ray Dudley through a table off a 20ft ladder!!!) but his Hell In A Cell match in particular, influenced these men to try and give the fans a more memorable moment, or at least something to wow and amaze them, just like Foley.
In conclusion, Foley was a greater asset to the world of wrestling than the Ultimate Warrior for the reasons I believe to be true. Foley, the gentle giant, was a great entertainer and a great family man, you could say he was ’The man we loved to love’..
Yes, maybe he was not the greatest mat wrestler in the world, but I’d rather pay to see him wrestle than many of the other wrestlers around now a-days.
And that’s something to be proud of in my mind.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
I will be posting why I think Warrior is the better asset to pro-wrestling later because I didn't know you were going to choose Foley so I have nothing typed up yet.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
I believe the Warrior was a bigger asset to professional-wrestling than Mick Foley was. Now before I give my reasoning, I want to make it very clear that I do respect Foley as a wrestler but I will not sit here and say he was a bigger asset, because he wasn’t. What was Foley really know for? He was known for being involved in many gimmick type matches, specifically hardcore matches. That’s what Foley is remembered for, then you look at Warrior, what is he remembered for? He is mostly remembered for 2 things, which are being in two of the best Wrestlemania matches ever and being incredibly over during the Golden Age which was at the time mostly about Hulk Hogan. That’s what many people remember him for, however there are a few amounts of people that remember he wasn’t a very talented wrestler. Which brings me to my next point: he opened doors for many wrestlers. If it wasn’t for Warrior we wouldn’t have seen many of the wrestlers we saw that came after him.
I am mostly referring to wrestlers like Goldberg and Batista. Both of them are not very talented, yet they were able to become huge stars without needing to be talented. Why was this possible? Because of Warrior. He showed that you could be very successful and tremendously over with the crowd without needing to be a talented wrestler. If it wasn’t for him then guys like Goldberg, Batista, and others wouldn’t have been as big as they were. As a matter of fact, I’ll even add one of the WWE’s biggest superstars on that list: Stone Cold Steve Austin. When he was playing the Stone Cold character, he didn’t show much talent, but that wasn’t really his fault. But it still doesn’t change the fact that many people would have thought he wasn’t talented at all, yet that would have been acceptable because of wrestlers like Warrior.
In summation, Warrior became very successful without needing to be the most talented wrestler on a roster, which in my opinion makes him a bigger asset to professional wrestling since he opened many doors for wrestlers in the future. He showed everyone that you don’t need to know as many moves as Dean Malenko or that you didn’t need to be able to have good matches all the time like Bret Hart in order to be a successful wrestler. He opened many doors for many wrestlers and I am sure that they are thankful for him. He made it acceptable to be less talented than other wrestlers, which we can never repay him for doing that. Like I stated earlier in my post, I respect Foley but he didn’t do anything to call him a bigger asset to pro-wrestling than Warrior. Foley was a hardcore wrestler that will always be remembered for getting thrown of a Cell, yet he didn’t do anything to open door for many wrestlers in the future. There were already many “hardcore” wrestlers and Foley was just another one of them. Warrior overall was a bigger asset to pro-wrestling because he did something many wrestlers including Foley couldn’t do, open door for many of the wrestlers in the future.
I am mostly referring to wrestlers like Goldberg and Batista. Both of them are not very talented, yet they were able to become huge stars without needing to be talented. Why was this possible? Because of Warrior. He showed that you could be very successful and tremendously over with the crowd without needing to be a talented wrestler. If it wasn’t for him then guys like Goldberg, Batista, and others wouldn’t have been as big as they were. As a matter of fact, I’ll even add one of the WWE’s biggest superstars on that list: Stone Cold Steve Austin. When he was playing the Stone Cold character, he didn’t show much talent, but that wasn’t really his fault. But it still doesn’t change the fact that many people would have thought he wasn’t talented at all, yet that would have been acceptable because of wrestlers like Warrior.
In summation, Warrior became very successful without needing to be the most talented wrestler on a roster, which in my opinion makes him a bigger asset to professional wrestling since he opened many doors for wrestlers in the future. He showed everyone that you don’t need to know as many moves as Dean Malenko or that you didn’t need to be able to have good matches all the time like Bret Hart in order to be a successful wrestler. He opened many doors for many wrestlers and I am sure that they are thankful for him. He made it acceptable to be less talented than other wrestlers, which we can never repay him for doing that. Like I stated earlier in my post, I respect Foley but he didn’t do anything to call him a bigger asset to pro-wrestling than Warrior. Foley was a hardcore wrestler that will always be remembered for getting thrown of a Cell, yet he didn’t do anything to open door for many wrestlers in the future. There were already many “hardcore” wrestlers and Foley was just another one of them. Warrior overall was a bigger asset to pro-wrestling because he did something many wrestlers including Foley couldn’t do, open door for many of the wrestlers in the future.
SavageTaker
Everybody Has A Price!
What do I think of when I hear the word hardcore; well there are many things I think of. Some of them are bloody matches, the original ECW, gimmick matches, Terry Funk, so on and so forth.
I will always remember this moment but it’s far from being the most hardcore thing I’ve seen. It’s a memorable event but it would still have been memorable if it was someone else that was thrown off of the cell. Foley was just the guy who was chosen to be thrown off, but it would have had the same effect if it was Jim Ross getting thrown. People would still have been shocked and it would have made everyone jump up from wherever they were sitting. It’s a memorable thing because it was the first time it had happened but I wouldn’t call it a defining moment in pro-wrestling history, maybe a defining moment for the history of the hell in a cell, but not for pro-wrestling. There are way more memorable things Warrior did than Foley getting thrown from the cell. Some would be, winning the WWF champion and Intercontinental champion by defeating Hulk Hogan at Wrestlemania, Retiring Randy Savage, getting attacked by Randy Savage at the Royal Rumble in 1991, losing the WWF champion to Sgt. Slaughter at the Rumble, and the list goes on and on. I could name things that are way more memorable than Foley getting thrown of a cell.
Everything you listed just shows you how dumb a wrestler Mick Foley is. He didn’t care enough for the fans to get healed so that he could continue wrestling for a longer time and entertain them. Instead he decided to keep wrestling while banged up even though it would have been better if he didn’t so he could entertain us for many more years to come. But only if Foley was smart he would have realized how stupid it is to take ridiculous bumps if it means getting injured.
It really isn’t, it’s just sheer stupidity on Foley’s part. Anyways, I would find things Terry Funk did hardcore. When that man was passed his prime he did some unbelievable things. He actually wrestled in a match that had the ropes replaced by barbwire. He is another man that I think did many stupid things during his hardcore years, but the things he did are way more hardcore than Foley getting thrown of a cell.
And I want to help you and the people reading these posts why Warrior was a bigger asset to pro-wrestling.
Interesting point however what Warrior did is what makes him a bigger asset to wrestling. Warrior proved that you didn’t need to be the most talented wrestler on the roster in order to be successful. How do you know Foley didn’t use drugs? I’m not saying he used them however there is a possibility he did use them. At the time they didn’t have a wellness policy like they do today and he could have easily used drugs and not get caught. Like I said I’m not saying he did use them but there is a chance he did use them because of how things were back then. Anyways, Foley didn’t open doors for wrestlers in the future like Warrior did. After Foley what other out of shape wrestlers did we see become successful? After Warrior how many very little talented wrestlers did we see become very successful? The answer would be quite a few and like I mentioned in my other post, two examples would be Goldberg and Batista.
Yes he was willing to do anything to become a wrestler in a time that it was really easy to become a wrestler. There were various NWA territories that he could have gone to and made a name for himself. And it wasn’t only NWA territories that he was limited to but there were also other independent promotions where he could have been a recognizable name. He did some stupid things when it was the easiest time in wrestling to become a pro-wrestler and make it to the big times.
It’s impressive that he was able to make it past all of those matches however it’s stupid to go through so much pain to only get paid $300 for doing it. I don’t care if he isn’t into pro-wrestling for the money because he has to feed himself and pay bills, doing ridiculous things in matches and getting payed so low for doing them shows that he wasn’t thinking. He didn’t need to go through all of those matches in order to gain a low paycheck. If he needs to pay bills and feed himself and maybe others, then why is he going out there doing crazy things? Like I stated earlier in this post, if he cared for the fans more then he would think about the decisions he was making. In wrestling you can easily end your career but it doesn’t help when you are raising the chances of ending your career. If he wanted to entertain fans then he could have accomplished that without having to do the things he did, but Foley still did them because he didn’t think things through enough.
You are right, he had a hand in helping popularize hardcore wrestling however it wasn’t because of his stint in ECW. The majority of fans didn’t know about the little company ran by Paul Heyman known as ECW. In fact, if you could go back in time and ask some of the people who were watching WWF and WCW what ECW was, most of them wouldn’t know because it was a small independent company. You can’t popularize anything when only a few thousands maybe hundred thousands are watching it.
This just shows how mind boggling those fans were. They were upset that one of the wrestlers was leaving for bigger and better things even though they would still be able to watch him on TV. I am guessing most of them had TV’s so they would still be able to watch him yet they were upset that he was going to join a mainstream company.
So what? He was able to give some pretty good promos; Warrior could give you some of the most memorable promos ever. It didn’t matter if you didn’t understand any of his metaphors, thought he was crazy, and were confused by the end of them because you would still remember as a child how awesome it was. He had some of the most memorable promos and more memorable than most of Foleys because he would always make everyone remember watching those promos he did.
Good for him if he was content with his position and all of that stuff you mentioned. It shows that he wasn’t looking to move up at all. While Warrior may have done a few of those things, at least he was smart because he wanted to make it to the top. He wanted to be the top guy in the company and was willing to do some of those things if it meant getting what he wanted. He was smart because he thought of himself first and others second.
I’ll give you the fact that he was able to have memorable matches, not classics, but memorable matches when he was past his prime. However, I have to disagree with you thinking none other wrestler could have made those matches turn out the way they did. If they had any other legend be in the match and doing the same things that Foley did then the matches would still have been memorable and they would still have had the same result. Just because Foley is in the match it does not mean they would only be the way they went because of Foley.
I don’t see how he influenced those wrestlers at all on their promos. He set a bar and if anyone wanted to pass it then they would strive to do so, but they weren’t influenced by Foley’s promo skills. He didn’t make people do their promos different he just made them want to beat whatever bar he set.
Now I do somewhat agree with you on this. He influenced some of those guys (and others) wrestling styles and what they did in their matches. However, he didn’t open doors for them like Warrior did for other wrestlers. If it wasn’t for Warrior we wouldn’t have seen guys like Goldberg and Batista because they probably wouldn’t have wanted to get into the business because they would think they wouldn’t be successful. At the end of the day every wrestlers wants to be successful in some way or another, and Warrior proved to be a success even if he wasn’t that talented.
I don’t see how any of those things make him a bigger asset to pro-wrestling at all. Good for him if he was a gentle giant and what not but it doesn’t make him a bigger asset to wrestling. Ultimately Warrior is a bigger asset to wrestling because he proved to many wrestlers that you don’t need to know as many moves as Dean Malenko or be able to put on good matches like Bret Hart in order to be successful. He showed you don’t need to be the most talented wrestler on the roster in order to achieve success. If it wasn’t for him then we probably wouldn’t have seen guys like Goldberg and Batista, so thank him for that.
yes but you are only one of hundreds of members of the wrestlezone forum, many fans like me would probably also think Mick Foley.
The footage of Foley being thrown off the top of the hell in a cell is undoubtably the most replayed footage in Wrestling. It surpasses anything that the Ultimate Warrior did in terms of being replayed on TV
Come on please, don't be silly. Just last week on RAW there was a public vote in which 49% of WWE fans didnt know that Sgt. Slaughter beat the Ultimate Warrior for the title. I appologise to you but i cannot accept anything that The Ultimate Warrior has done is more memorable to Foleys Hell in a Cell match, but i will give you that beating Hogan at Wrestlemania was a memorable moment, Just not as much
Foley returning to the ring gave the fans what they paid their money to see. A hell in the cell match, not a one spot wonder. I also believe that Foley is still entertaining us to this day in a little place called TNA.
Terry Funk did a lot of extreme thing, yes maybe more extreme than Foley. I never said that Foley was the most dangerous wrestler ever. But i did mention that Foley has also competed in barb wired matches with Terry Funk, so what you have said is irelevent to the debate.
I believe Foley never took drugs. If he did he hid it well enough to make you think that he was an overweight, dirty, smelly old man. Besides, its not Foleys job to stop wrestlers taking drugs, he just proved you didnt need them to become a Wrestlemania main eventer and WWF Champion. Guys like Benoit, Test and Eddie Guerrero all took drugs to make it to the top, and look where they are now. Im pretty sure if they could speak to us somehow they will say it wasnt worth it.
Onto your second point i would say that it was because of Hulk Hogan, who i believe to have had very little in ring ability, that set the stage for guys like Goldberg and Batista.
But Foley doesnt control the era of pro wrestling. Maybe he was just lucky that Mrs Foleys baby boy was born at the right place at the right time, you cant hold that against the man. Its completly out of his control.
How was it stupid? Foley was willing to do anything he could to be a household name, as did warrior with the steriods. It paid off for Foley big time and he has become a household name, best selling author, WWF/TNA champ, and people are discussing how great an asset he was to the history of pro wrestling.
But this is a debate how much Foley or Warrior was a great enough asset to pro wrestling, not themselves.
Also, Foley did the things he did to entertain the fans because he, well, is a fan himself. Would you rather see foley go out on a 60 min iron man match or a hardcore death match? The fans are blood thursty animals and Foley was willing to give them what they wanted, Not what he wanted.
but Foley helped, and was a major help, in bringing that ECW style into the WWF. Without Foley in the picture getting things started, the Attitude era may have existed, but wouldnt have been as sucsessful.
That has noting to do with Foley. He doesnt not have super telekinetic powers to make the fans think differently and make them realise they could still watch him. He cant promote WWF on ECW shows. But then again, Foley is God.
Warriors promos were so memorable because they were so bad. And thats the only reason that people thought he was awsome, because you mention that they were all children. I have never enjoyed a Warrior promo and many critics have hit out on warriors promos.
again, this proves that Foley was a man who wanted to help the business, not himself in a selfish manner like Warrior throught his entire career. Warrior could care less if fans hated his match, as long as he got the $$$ he was happy.
a wreslter who could still give us memorable matches after he has passed his prime? thats impressive in my books.
Foley was also not a great techinical wrestler, or knew as many moves as well, perhaps less than warrior. Foley was also not the most talented wrestler on the roster and he still made a name for himself. Foley is an Icon in the wrestling world. Warrior will always be considered an ass by many of his co workers. The self distruction of the ultimate warrior is proof. And as of today, there has been no self distruction dvds of Foley.
Good debate here guys, I am sure Miko read this one in hopes of some closure after his poor heart was broken when Foley went over. Now this was an interesting debate, was not exactly what the tournament was asking for, but it was close. I think that The Warrior should have went over in the tournament, even though Foley is one of my favourites.
Clarity of debate- 1 point
This debate was very clear, and I found it hard to find a winner. As I am not one to split votes, I had to look at tiny faults. SavageTaker gave the cleanest arguments and I had to give him the votes.
Punctuality- 1 point
Err... I just said that I wouldn't not hold back on the points... so I must stick to it. Fratelli, you were late getting your debate in to begin with, and it caused ST to work harder, so I must give the point to SavageTaker here.
Informative- 1 point
The information was massive out there, and I feel that both of you could have given me a lot more. A bit of an insight into how I mark these, is I have a piece of paper, with the categories for marks, and I mark down each time someone provides information that is solid. It was low for this round, especially as opposed to what I know you can do, especially you you ST, from earlier. Fratelli gets this point, and it was close.
Emotionality- 1 point
Now this was the easiest point to give. Fratelli came into this with smart agressiveness which I love in a debate, I feel it gives me my biggest boost while writing, and it showed here that Fratelli was on to something. He gets the point.
Persuasion- 1 point
As I said, from the get go, I was leaning towards Warrior in the tournament, but here, it was too close to call. As a judge, and as all judges are expected to do, we must look at how we are swayed, and not what side of the argument we agree with here. So I look at the swaying I had received, and give my point to Fratelli here, as he gave me the better argument on picking Mick Foley as the better asset.
TM rates this 3 points Fratelli to 2 points SavageTaker.
Clarity of debate- 1 point
This debate was very clear, and I found it hard to find a winner. As I am not one to split votes, I had to look at tiny faults. SavageTaker gave the cleanest arguments and I had to give him the votes.
Punctuality- 1 point
Err... I just said that I wouldn't not hold back on the points... so I must stick to it. Fratelli, you were late getting your debate in to begin with, and it caused ST to work harder, so I must give the point to SavageTaker here.
Informative- 1 point
The information was massive out there, and I feel that both of you could have given me a lot more. A bit of an insight into how I mark these, is I have a piece of paper, with the categories for marks, and I mark down each time someone provides information that is solid. It was low for this round, especially as opposed to what I know you can do, especially you you ST, from earlier. Fratelli gets this point, and it was close.
Emotionality- 1 point
Now this was the easiest point to give. Fratelli came into this with smart agressiveness which I love in a debate, I feel it gives me my biggest boost while writing, and it showed here that Fratelli was on to something. He gets the point.
Persuasion- 1 point
As I said, from the get go, I was leaning towards Warrior in the tournament, but here, it was too close to call. As a judge, and as all judges are expected to do, we must look at how we are swayed, and not what side of the argument we agree with here. So I look at the swaying I had received, and give my point to Fratelli here, as he gave me the better argument on picking Mick Foley as the better asset.
TM rates this 3 points Fratelli to 2 points SavageTaker.
Cena's Little Helper
Mid-Card Championship Winner
Clarity Of Debate - Fratelli, your opening argument read like a eulogy, no offense. I would say that about the first three or four paragraphs could have been cut, as they were irrelevant to your argument. SavageTaker, you kept things short and sweet.
Point: SavageTaker
Punctuality: SavageTaker, overall, you were quick to respond, although your first post in this thread confused me: why would we think you would not be arguing for Warrior when Fratelli already said he was arguing for Mick Foley?
Point: SavageTaker
Informative: Fratelli, if there's one thing that you gave a lot of, it was information. Fortunately, although some of your information was irrelevant to the point at hand, you used what information was relevant effectively. SavageTaker, you made some bold claims in your posts that I felt weren't very well supported. Sure, Warrior, Goldberg, and Batista may be similar in their size and in-ring capabilities, but you never fully explained exactly how Warrior paved the way for these men. Also, I failed to see how Warrior paved the way for Stone Cold Steve Austin in any way, shape, or form.
Point: Fratelli
Emotionality: SavageTaker, something tells me you were uncomfortable with arguing for Warrior. More emotionally charged language could have helped you out here, and convinced me that you believed to some extent that Warrior was a greater asset than Mick Foley to professional wrestling. Fratelli, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Mick Foley was your favorite wrestler.
Point: Fratelli
Persuasion: SavageTaker, as I said above, you made some bold claims that you didn't support very well. You gave an excellent rebuttal, but that's only half the battle in debates like these. Don't forget that your defense is just as important as your offense.
Point: Fratelli
tdigle's Score
Fratelli: 3
SavageTaker: 2
Point: SavageTaker
Punctuality: SavageTaker, overall, you were quick to respond, although your first post in this thread confused me: why would we think you would not be arguing for Warrior when Fratelli already said he was arguing for Mick Foley?
Point: SavageTaker
Informative: Fratelli, if there's one thing that you gave a lot of, it was information. Fortunately, although some of your information was irrelevant to the point at hand, you used what information was relevant effectively. SavageTaker, you made some bold claims in your posts that I felt weren't very well supported. Sure, Warrior, Goldberg, and Batista may be similar in their size and in-ring capabilities, but you never fully explained exactly how Warrior paved the way for these men. Also, I failed to see how Warrior paved the way for Stone Cold Steve Austin in any way, shape, or form.
Point: Fratelli
Emotionality: SavageTaker, something tells me you were uncomfortable with arguing for Warrior. More emotionally charged language could have helped you out here, and convinced me that you believed to some extent that Warrior was a greater asset than Mick Foley to professional wrestling. Fratelli, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Mick Foley was your favorite wrestler.
Point: Fratelli
Persuasion: SavageTaker, as I said above, you made some bold claims that you didn't support very well. You gave an excellent rebuttal, but that's only half the battle in debates like these. Don't forget that your defense is just as important as your offense.
Point: Fratelli
tdigle's Score
Fratelli: 3
SavageTaker: 2
Clarity of Debate - Fratelli, your open rambled a bit. There were times where I wasn't sure about what you were arguing. ST, you were clear in the point that you were trying to make.
1-SavageTaker
Punctuality - Simple point in that ST was quicker in getting his statement out.
1-SavageTaker
Informative - Fratelli had a lot of information on both domestic and foreign wresting. Not all of it was pertinent, but it still outweighed the information that ST put forward.
1-Fratelli
Emotionality - Fratelli seemed more connected to his side of the debate. It was clear that he admire Foley as a man and it showed in his argument. Not so much for ST.
1-Fratelli
Persuasion - To put it simply I think that Fratelli's argument convinced me more than ST's. Specifically in ST's response to Fratelli's post I was not convinced on the points that ST was trying to make about Foley. Ultimately, though I'm not sure based on my own ideas which is a better asset, Fratelli was able to say me.
1-Fratelli
3 Fratelli
2 ST
1-SavageTaker
Punctuality - Simple point in that ST was quicker in getting his statement out.
1-SavageTaker
Informative - Fratelli had a lot of information on both domestic and foreign wresting. Not all of it was pertinent, but it still outweighed the information that ST put forward.
1-Fratelli
Emotionality - Fratelli seemed more connected to his side of the debate. It was clear that he admire Foley as a man and it showed in his argument. Not so much for ST.
1-Fratelli
Persuasion - To put it simply I think that Fratelli's argument convinced me more than ST's. Specifically in ST's response to Fratelli's post I was not convinced on the points that ST was trying to make about Foley. Ultimately, though I'm not sure based on my own ideas which is a better asset, Fratelli was able to say me.
1-Fratelli
3 Fratelli
2 ST
Clarity of Debate - Fratelli, you did ramble a bit and ST's post were all well organized. You also did a good job but I believe ST did a better job
1-SavageTaker
Punctuality - SavageTaker was quick on the draw. Therefore he gets the point.
1-SavageTaker
Informative -They both did a good job with all of there information. I believe Fratelli had more therefore he gets the point.
1-Fratelli
Emotionality - Both did a very good job but I believe Fratelli was able to connect because he truly liked Mick Foley.
1-Fratelli
Persuasion - They both did a good job but Fratelli did a better job. it was going to be hard to persuade me in any way but he did a good job.
1- Fratelli
Fratelli- 3
SavageTaker -2
1-SavageTaker
Punctuality - SavageTaker was quick on the draw. Therefore he gets the point.
1-SavageTaker
Informative -They both did a good job with all of there information. I believe Fratelli had more therefore he gets the point.
1-Fratelli
Emotionality - Both did a very good job but I believe Fratelli was able to connect because he truly liked Mick Foley.
1-Fratelli
Persuasion - They both did a good job but Fratelli did a better job. it was going to be hard to persuade me in any way but he did a good job.
1- Fratelli
Fratelli- 3
SavageTaker -2
Clarity: Fratelli had a lot going on in his first post, some of it started to seem unnecessary. ST was straight to the point.
Point: SavageTaker
Punctuality: ST was quicker on the draw.
Point: SavageTaker
Informative: Fratelli had a lot of information, some a little unnecessary, but he still had enough that he used well that worked more than ST.
Point: Fratelli
Emotionality: It felt like Fratelli was fighting for his childhood hero, and ST just didn't seem into Warrior.
Point: Fratelli
Persuasion: Fratelli did a great job. He was able to use his points to his advantage, and ST just didn't back up quite a few of his points.
Point: Fratelli
CH David scores this Fratelli 3, SavageTaker 2.
Point: SavageTaker
Punctuality: ST was quicker on the draw.
Point: SavageTaker
Informative: Fratelli had a lot of information, some a little unnecessary, but he still had enough that he used well that worked more than ST.
Point: Fratelli
Emotionality: It felt like Fratelli was fighting for his childhood hero, and ST just didn't seem into Warrior.
Point: Fratelli
Persuasion: Fratelli did a great job. He was able to use his points to his advantage, and ST just didn't back up quite a few of his points.
Point: Fratelli
CH David scores this Fratelli 3, SavageTaker 2.