Week 2: Phoenix -versus- ztwhite

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    The better asset to the Professional Wrestling World? Edge vs Raven

    ztwhite is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
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  2. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    I'll debate for Edge - meaning Edge is the better asset to the wrestling world.

    But, I'll defer the coin toss to Phoenix, so you can go first.
     
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  3. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    Since Phoenix couldn't join the debate until Wednesday, it was left up to me to post first. I guess he was looking for a recent Raven match since his current storyline angle with Abyss and Dr. Stevie is pathetic at best.

    Adam Copeland, aka Edge - 14 time tag champ (a WWF/WWE record) and 9 time heavyweight champ. Edge is also the only man... and I'll say it again... the ONLY MAN to hold all six of the WWF/WWE's major titles (WWE, World, Intercontinental, United States, World Tag Team, and WWE Tag Team Championships). In addition, he's been the King of the Ring and won the MITB match at Wrestlemania. Truthfully, I don't see how anyone can argue the point that he's the most decorated wrestler of all time !!!

    As for being a better asset to the wrestling world than a guy like Raven, I don't see how anyone could argue that either.

    Raven spent the majority of his career in the "B" organizations and using the grade of "B" is putting it kindly. Sure, he had a couple of stints in the WWE, and holds the record for the most Hardcore Title reigns, but most wrestling fans know the Hardcore Title was a joke.

    Edge on the other hand, has not only been adorned with straps his entire career, he's also been involved in some of the biggest storylines ever.

    His first major gimmick in the WWF was as a member of the Brood - teaming with his "brother" Christian. The Brood eventually became the Ministry of Darkness and much of Edge's career push can be acredited to The Undertaker.

    Edge's star really blossomed during his longtime tag team feud with The Hardy Boyz. Many, including myself, believe the greatest tag team match ever included Edge at Wrestlemania 2000 in the TLC match with the Hardy Boyz and The Dudley Boyz.

    His early singles career was marred by injuries and controversy (Matt Hardy & Lita ring a bell), but Edge persevered through a broken neck, hand, groin injury, etc... His chase for his first heavyweight title was the last real "chase" the WWE has utilized. Jeff Hardy's "chase" didn't last long enough to count IMO - he won too quickly after he began trying. Edge waited nearly two years to win his first heavyweight strap.

    The rest of his storied career is history and there's a lot more to come for all wrestling fans. Edge transcends cultures, both here in the US and for our neighbors to the north since he's Canadian. His childhood dream of wanting to be a wrestler is well chronicled (attending Mania at the Skydome for Hogan/Warrior) and his passion for the business is unmatched. He started as a spot monkey but became a well rounded wrestler who can adapt for any match he's placed in.

    What has Raven done ??? He has a cult following of ECW fans and wrestling fans who like to see a guy use or get smashed by garbage cans. He's never been featured in a prominent feud, unless you count his King of the Mountain win at Slammiversary in '05, but no one was watching TNA then (and still aren't), so if a Raven wins in the minor leagues and no one's there to see it, does it matter ?? Raven is known in the locker room as a headache, which is why he's probably not in the WWE right now and has bounced around the different federations for the past 17 years. He's currently the VCW Heavyweight champ - whatever that is ???!!!

    Edge has proven that he's a valuable commodity for the big boys and has delivered over and over for the past 11 years. What has Raven done besides quote himself ??

    I'm obviously not the only wrestling fan who agrees that Edge is one the greatest superstars ever - he did win the 3rd Annual Wrestlezone Tournament here on the forums - and I'll take the opinion of a bunch of wrestling marks (myself included) anyday !!!!
     
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  4. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    I actually said I couldn't post on Wednesday but could today.

    Firstly to begin, ouch! That's quite a harsh statement on Mr. Levy there! Now, it while it’s easy to back Adam "Edge” Copeland because he’s in the main event of the current WWE product, it doesn’t necessarily mean he is the biggest asset to wrestler as opposed to being an asset to their company. Where Edge has been only with the WWE, Raven has been with WWE, WCW, ECW & TNA, all four major promotions in the past two decades. What’s more is he has held 20 different championships in these promotions plus the independent circuit, how many times is beyond my counting ability at this time, but it’s a lot! And, yes his the current VCW Heavyweight Champion.

    The first thing I think about what proves a big asset to wrestling and that’s what have they brought that’s new to the wrestling world.

    Case One: Gimmick Matches Undertaker is know for the innovation of Hell in a Cell, Buried Alive, Last Ride & Inferno Matches, ECW is the innovation of violent hardcore matches.

    In case of match type/gimmicks between Raven & Edge, Raven has innovated 3 gimmick types of matches compared to Edge’s one. Where Edge’s innovated TLC match type is a favourite amongst WWE and their fans, Raven’s has been a favourite in WCW (Raven’s Rules) and TNA (Clockwork Orange House of Fun Match, Hangman’s Horror). Now while one of these match type is defunct as the organisation, the other two are still uniquely used in TNA. Now while TNA have had some original match types to compete with against WWE, these are amongst the mix, more daring and violent compare to the PG rating. TLC matches still have their charm but slowly getting mixed with the "over used" factor with Ladder matches in recent times, greatly appreciated back in the day, but overused

    Controversial moments in Wrestling History: To quote good old Eric Bischoff "Controversy creates cash!" For Mr. Edge, his most controversial act is going be the Love Triangle between Matt Hardy, Lita and himself, on top of the live sex celebration. Now while the latter has been credited as being a top Raw draw in the past five years, it's a rare gem that we can easily overlook. But what did Raven do that was even more controversial? I give you the Sandman's crucifixion.

    Now this was one of the defining moments in ECW, Kurt Angle was set to join them had it not been for this angle and this got everyone talking about the controversy of ECW to a point where they a. got told to tone it down and b. Raven had to actually apologise (by order of Heyman) for this segment in public, it got people talking and look what happens two years later? The WWE steals this by having Undertaker crucifying Steve Austin on his symbol, yet the Undertaker wasn't sent out to apologise...but this had people talking as well because Vince knew this would get people talking. Something contoverisal got the attention of Vince McMahon and he copies it. All Edge's controversy comes at the hand of Vince telling him what to do, Raven took the initative to come with this!

    While Raven may have jumped around organisations, he has held some recognisable titles in the form of the ECW World Heavyweight Title, the WCW US Title, and the biggest one for him the NWA World Heavyweight Championship. A title that greats like Lou Thesz, Buddy Rogers, Harley Race, Ric Flair and the Funk brothers have held, has one been around the waist of Raven, now given that's a huge title, that's quite an accomplishment for his career! He is only a man who's walk on WCW by being the only man who stood up to walk out of WCW when Bischoff asked if anyone wanted to go, he had alot of respect for doing that because no-one else had the guts to do so.

    We all know out of Edge's 9 World Title reigns, only 2 have been long enough to not be considered a joke/transitional reign as Raven's 27 hardcore title wins. His first reign didn't even last a month! I could easily say that Triple H has held more that Edge, including the European Title and won the Royal Rumble. But this isn't about Triple H. He might be the most decorated, but he's done nothing memorable with his title reigns to us go "Ah yeah, Edge, great World Champion!"

    Edge's run in the Ministry was never memorable, they were the first to get kicked out. As for his career push, it was more than just the Undertaker, admittedly, Edge has done more without the Undertaker being in near sight

    Which match are you referring to? The Wrestlemania 2000 Triangle Ladder? The Summerslam 2000 TLC match? Or Wrestlemania X-Seven's TLC II? If you're like me, I think you meant the 2001 match as 2000 was not that great despite setting up the crowds of TLC and have Edge's first tag title.

    I'm also pretty certain that the feud with the Hardys started after Edge & Christian left the ministry? But you said Edge was in a great career push by then?!

    Actually Edge was chasing the title for a year. He started chasing around November 2004 and won the title in January 2006, that's only a year and 1/2 months. He spent most of the year feuding with Matt Hardy and only had like 3 challenges in a whole year before cashing in his MITB.

    Jeff Hardy was chasing the title from January 2008 and despite a 60 day suspension during the year, he still won the title in December of the same year. He had 4 title shots before he finally won it in that year. About even ground really.

    You say this, but you have yet to back yourself up with evidence that his storied career is enough to say that he's a bigger asset than Raven. He's not done anything to change the landscape except be a glorified guinea pig for trying out new matches that were made more famous due to his team mates using ladders and tables as their specialty.

    Raven came up with three match types that were got used to keep them special, he's held a major title in 3 of the 4 big promotions, he did one of the most controversial pieces of ECW's history that WWE copied, he's been a guy who believes in doing what is right for him and his fellow wrestlers by standing up for being WCW was doing downhill and also being part a group that sued WWE regarding health care and benefits, where he trying to get wrestlers an opportunity to be considered employees and not tools. He's made more an impact because the things he has done, despite not being as big leagued as Edge, got the attention of the audiences and people to watch ECW and other programmes.

    Edge may be a big assest to the WWE as a company, but Raven is a bigger assest to wrestling as a whole because he's worked in different organisations and done different things that are part of history. There's a difference between helping the WWE and helping wrestling and Raven was the bigger asset of the latter.
     
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  5. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    Granted, Mr. Levy (as you wish to call him) HAS been with all four major promotions, but in the realm of wrestling, only one of those promotions could actually be considered "major" at this point in time and that's the WWE. Edge has been a centerpiece of that "major" wrestling organization for the past ten years !!


    There have been some great gimmick matches involving Raven, but when was the last time one of them was used ?? Today's wrestling fans (I'm speaking about the younger generation which is who most wrestling fans are these days) have never seen a Clockwork Orange House of Fun Match !!!

    Edge helped revolutionize one of the most popular, if not THE most popular gimmick match - the ladder match !!! Several variations have been instituted... TLC match, MITB Ladder Match, etc... It is a match that no matter when or where it is booked, fans genuinely get excited to see it. It is utilized in both "major" organizations (and I use that term loosely for TNA). The only gimmick match Raven has a penchant for is a hardcore match and he hardly revolutioned that type of match. Plenty of wrestlers, both before and after Raven, have participated in better hardcore matches. Edge is often associated with the some of the greatest ladder / TLC matches in WWF / WWE history.

    Again, I use the statement - If it happens in the minor leagues and no one is there to see it, does it matter ?? Diehard wrestling fans are well aware of what Raven did to the Sandman in the original ECW, but we're debating who is the bigger asset to the wrestling world. An entire generation of wrestling fans will never know about the crucifixtion angle that created controversy in ECW.

    They will know about the love triangle between Hardy / Lita / Edge. They will know about the storyline marriage of Edge / Vicki Guerrero. They will know about the lasting impact of Edge's participation in several high profile ladder matches. They will know about the "Live Sex Celebration".

    Raven will be remembered for what ???

    If this was anytime between 1970 - 1990, I would say "nice point" and move forward, but the NWA Heavyweight Championship hardly carries any weight after this time period.

    Unless it has the WWF / WWE attached to it, I'm not sure how many current wrestling fans really care. Yes, I recognize and you recognize what the NWA title means, but we're talking about the lasting impact of Edge and Raven.

    Current fans know that Ric Flair is the 16 time world champ, but how many of those fans think he held 16 world titles with the WWF / WWE / WCW names attached to them ??

    If Vince McMahon never used the ECW monicker, I believe it's safe to say that most of the wrestling fan world would have already forgotten about ECW and moved on. WCW, NWA or any other past organization is much the same - unfortunately !!! A monster has taken over the wrestling world and like it or not, unless it happened for the monster, no one will care 5-10 years from now. It's much the same as the ABA and NBA. A large portion of basketball's history took place in the ABA, not the NBA, but current and future fans have no clue what happened in the ABA or even what it was.

    Yes, Edge has had short title reigns, but he's constantly been in the title picture while Raven has been non-existent on television for the better part of this decade. Out of sight, out of mind !! When Raven was brought back to TNA, I think t's safe to say that a lot of the current wrestling fans needed someone to explain to them who he is /was. Most of the people he's been associated with over the years are gone - Kidman, Sandman, Saturn, etc... - so there's no lasting legacy he returns too.

    When Edge wrestles a guy like Matt Hardy or even if he wrestles Christian in the future, you can bet his storied past with these men will be mentioned and rehashed several times over. Edge has left an impact in his rise to fame and stardom - Raven has not.

    I couldn't disagree more !! Edge's run in the Ministry was one of the most compelling angles that took place during the Attitude era. It was actually one of the first edgy angles the WWF / WWE attempted. It helped signal a change in the approach to wrestling on tv. Sure, many other storylines or angles may have eclipsed it in the end, but it helped usher in the most memorable time period for wrestling fans.

    Take your pick - all three are great matches !!! Whether it was the actual in ring performances or the lasting impact these matches had on wrestling. You said it yourself - "...2000 was not that great despite setting up the crowds of TLC." - a lasting Impact !!!

    But if recall correctly, Edge only held his first championship for three weeks, before dropping the title. His chase continued and he didn't win his second for another six months. His first reign was in 01/06 and his second didn't come until 07/06. All told, that's nearly two years of chasing the title.

    Jeff became a main event player virtually overnight. Yes, he had a shot against Orton and lost, but then he was thrust out of the main event scene relatively quickly. Once he re-entered the picture against HHH, he captured the belt within three months - albeit dropping it rather quickly as well. Yet he regained the belt less than three months later. A much shorter amount of time compared to Edge.

    As do you my friend !!! Edge's storied career has many more chapters than Raven's story !!! Anyone who spends ten years in the most recognizable wrestling organization around the world will always be heads and tails above a journeyman who's toiled in the minor leagues.

    Raven "came up" with three matches ?? I'm sure creative team members and one of the greatest wrestling minds in history - Paul Heyman - helped develop those matches. That's a bold statement and I believe you're giving Raven way too much credit.

    I have never said Edge "came up" with the ladder match or TLC match - I have simply said he helped revolutionize its execution.

    Again, holding titles with no lasting prestige means nothing in the wrestling world. Most resembled tinker toys and are no where to be found or heard of today. Can you tell me who won the Double-A Baseball Championship last year ?? Which team won the Arena Football League title in 2008 ??

    The only ones people remember are the ones that garner the most attention and the WWF / WWE has historically garnered the most attention and always will.

    And to say that Raven made people watch ECW is absurd. Very few people ever watched ECW, hence why they went bankrupt. It had a devout cult-like following and I dare say has been watched more on You Tube in recent years then it ever was on tv when the company was in existence.
     
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  6. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    One other point I need to correct as well, you said won the 3rd WrestleZone Tournament. He did not, that was taken by Bret Hart.

    At this point in time yes, but we're looking at wrestling as a whole, NWA, WCW, ECW, WWE, TNA, to name a few. Whilst the WWE & TNA are the only main companies in the spotlight right now. To completely ignore the history of wrestling prior to 2001 shows ignorance to the fact that WWE would not have certain elements to their company had it not been for their rivals WCW & ECW. When talking about an asset to wrestling, we're talking in general. Just because WWE dominates, it doesn't mean it's automatically number one in being a great asset to wrestling.

    Edge has been a part of the WWE yes, but he's not been a centerpiece. The people you brand 'centerpiece' of a company is the person you evolve it around from Hulk Hogan to Shawn Michaels to Bret Hart to Steve Austin to The Rock to Triple H to John Cena. Edge has never had the company built around him because he's a company player, he plays a role in building around the centerpieces. Vince says jump, Edge says "How high?"

    It's easy to say that, but then that's partly due to TNA not having complete coverage on television. Youngsters mostly never hear of TNA because the WWE is shoved right in their faces. But it's one that gets used in ROH as well, so the concept is one that gets recognised within the wrestling industry. The only reason we don't see it in WWE is because a. They're going PG b. They didn't create it. Having just googled that match type, it gets quite a response because people hear the name and want to know more, much like a Kennel from Hell match or an Inferno Match. They hear the name, they look it up. That's what gets people interested, a unique name, regardless of the last time it was used, it gets better remembered because people will look up something they don't know.

    Whilst TLC/Ladder matches, they get viewed all the time and many can name a favourite, but as I said before, it's over-used, so they lose interest when we seem them for the 5th/6th time in the space of a year.

    Oh Becca will kill you for that one. Edge did not revolutionise the ladder match. It was non other than HBK, Shawn Michaels, that revolutionised the ladder match. Edge only played a role in making it work for tag teams. But to say Edge did what HBK did before him is a big wrong there my friend.

    But also, it was the Hardys that added to it. TLC was created because the Hardys and Dudleys used Ladders adn Tables as part of their gimmick, Edge and Christian only brought the chairs!

    Not necessarily true, he's had a number of great matches where he's not had hardcore rules. Yes he was in ECW, but I never said he revolutionised it, he was part of making it entertaining.

    Personally, and this is my own opinion, my favourite hardcore match in WWE is the Triple Threat Hardcore Title match at Wrestlemania X-Seven, featuring Big Show, Kane and, oh yes, Raven! Can I ask what yours is?

    As I said, crucifying the Sandman, something that is remembered for being controversial, something that got ECW it's big name of being out there and hardcore. Vickie Guerrero will pass in time, much like most GMs of WWE. And yes they will know of the Love Triangle. Simply because it was the first time where an internal affair in the company was made public and used as an angle, but it's an angle that didn't give much benefit in the long run, I mean it lead to Lita retiring because the fans got involved too much for one. That's just showing where some times a line has to be drawn.

    But the fact you just insulted a community of wrestling fans on their history and following. You call ECW a minor league?! If it was considered that, then it would never been used in the Alliance Invasion, it would have not had two revival ppvs and it would not have been revived as a WWE brand. ECW fans are one of the most diehard fans you can find, that's why WWE brought it back, to draw the ECW viewers in because they will stick to their product.

    If you even consider watching the old ECW, the fans defined what was make or break. Paul E. Heyman brought people in and gave them gimmicks that made them popular and also made the big stepping stones for future World Champions. To insult the ECW product and their fans was a big step to make.

    But also, Raven has been known for managing people that are popular in wrestling such as Stevie Richards & The Blue Meanie, The Dudleyz, Cactus Jack, Billy Kidman, Perry Saturn, CM Punk.

    Speaking of CM Punk, Raven quite possibly had the best feud of CM Punk's life with the original straight-edge/drug addiction storyline. If you know CM Punk prior to WWE, alot of people talk about his feud with Raven being the best he's done and WWE are now emulating that feud with him and Jeff Hardy, despite not being able to match what Raven and Punk did back then!

    And this feud involved another crucifixion point in a Clockwork Orange House of Fun, two major contributions by Raven both in the ring at same time! That fued put CM Punk on the map and both TNA and WWE signed him afterwards, so had it not been for this feud with Raven, we would not have CM Punk around in the WWE!

    Well given that even WWE recongises that Flair won the NWA World Title BEFORE he went to WCW and WWE. Again that is because Flair was a great asset to wrestling. But being an asset is about what the current crop of fans remember. Alot of fans on here know that Flair won 16 World Titles from 3 different coporations. Yet you said only what happens in WWE matters. So would that make his 16 World Titles null and void? No, yet while Flair has done this, Raven is the first and (to my knowledge) only wrestler to have held a title in each of the big four companies of the past two decades. I would put that accomplishment on a similiar ground as Flair's titles.

    Sure, it's not World Title reigns, but the fact that Raven has been trusted with a title in each of the big four, 2 Worlds and an Upper Midcard at least, shows that he is a big asset because he's proven himself in these four and beyond on the independent circuit. Raven has won 20 different titles in total throughout the industry, it shows he is a great asset to wrestling if all these companies put titles around his waist!

    Again, you're saying this when ECW had two One Night Stands, this plus their Rise and Fall DVD, one of WWE's biggest selling DVDs of all time, led to ECW being revived. This alone proves that the original ECW never died, because people live and breath ECW! People like me, who lived through the 90s will never forgot the likes of WCW and ECW, because they played a big part in one of the biggest wrestling decades of all time!

    WCW is not forgotten, it's still talked about today and plays a big role in WWE's history, and a DVD of their Rise and Fall is coming out.

    NWA is still alive and well, yes they were linked to WCW & TNA to keep them going, but they're still running and their highly recongised title still goes on. Just because it's not on WWE records or owned by them, doesn't mean it's worthless.


    Lets see, hmm. Ric Flair, Kurt Angle, Sting (a man never touched by WWE), Raven, Rhyno, DDP, Sandman, Sabu, Dean Malenko, I could go on. These guys mostly fought on the "minor leagues" and guess what, they all remember them for what did OUTSIDE of the WWE! Can you compare Edge to them and say they all were below Edge because he stuck around with WWE?!

    WRONG!!!!

    Coming from a guy who said that Edge is more over the likes of anyone who's never been in the WWE like Sting, you can criticise me all you want, but you gave Edge more credit by insulting fans who a. Support TNA b. Support WCW c. Support ECW, that's quite a bold statement.

    As I said before, these three matches were done outside of ECW, so Heyman had nothing to do with it. If a creative team member came up with them, then why does other organisations come up with it? Because TNA & WCW did not own the rights to using the matches solely.

    As I said before, HBK revolutionised it, before Edge ever came along!

    [quote[Again, holding titles with no lasting prestige means nothing in the wrestling world. Most resembled tinker toys and are no where to be found or heard of today. Can you tell me who won the Double-A Baseball Championship last year ?? Which team won the Arena Football League title in 2008 ??[/quote]

    Despite being a person holding no interest in Baseball or American Football, I can anwer that this a trick question as there a 3 divisions, they winners of each division were:
    * Eastern League: Trenton Thunder
    * Southern League: Mississippi Braves
    * Texas League: Arkansas Travelers

    And the AFL winners of 2008, the last ever champions were the Philadelphia Soul. Your point being?

    Wrong, where the WWE has the most attention now, they don't even forget the history of what they own. The released an Encyclopedia which included the history of the WCW & ECW titles, which shows that they are still remembered as important. If anyone truly cares about wrestling, much like any other sport, they will always look up the history. History is more important to the product that what is hot about it and what garnered the most. The only people who will current agree with you is the fan boys of WWE who have only grown up with WWE and not explored beyond the kayfabe side of things. Yet week after week, WWE airs on their 24/7 on Demand programme all the old episodes of ECW and WCW.

    ECW never went bankrupted because of a small following. It went bankrupt because Paul Heyman was useless with money and because they lost their deal with TNN, meaning their loyal following could only see them live. Even Heyman strongly believed that the lack of a national television deal caused ECW's demise. They had a strong following to begin with. It's going to naturaly be watched more on youtube because the possibilities are there now and because people can do due to the current ECW brand.

    ---------------

    I'd like to point out right out that the subject point has been lost here. I gave my views on why Raven is a better asset to wrestling than Edge. What I have seen in response is basically stating "you're wrong" and choosing to attack ECW and any other promotion that does not have the initials WWE in it's name.

    So I will give a short summary.

    While Edge has held all the titles available in the WWE, this does not define him as being an asset to wrestling, but more to WWE as a company, he is a team player and does his job. He's not been a person who the WWE has centred around as a company face, but rather a man who is put into the feuds with the faces of the comapny.

    Raven may have only two big World Titles in his whole career, but he has been in WWE, TNA, ECW & WCW and has been decorated on the independent scene as well, holding 20 different recognised titles on the major and independent leagues. He has been credited with 3 match gimmick types, while they do not feature in WWE, they feature(d) in WCW, TNA & ROH and proved to be popular with their loyal fan bases.

    Raven caused one of the big controversies of ECW's history by crucifying the Sandman, a stunt that the WWE copied 2 years later with the Undertaker & Steve Austin. He also has been involved with what has been branded as the longest and best feud of ROH's history with the straight edge/drug addict feud with CM Punk, a feud that WWE is copying right now in the current World Title Main Event status. The feud that Punk and Raven had also put Punk on the map to get TNA & WWE calling for his services.

    To say that Raven is not a bigger asset that Edge in wrestling as a whole is a wrong point. He's been unique, he thinks ideas and puts them forward, he's caused controversy that people remember and he's been in feuds that made superstars of the current crop today, namely CM Punk. Without Raven we wouldn't have some of the things we saw today. Kurt Angle would have been on ECW, CM Punk would still be on the independent circuit and the Undertaker would have never scarificed Steve Austin in 1999. These were ideas and stories Raven was involved in and even the big leagues take notice and copy what ECW and lower leagues do. While Edge is a big asset to WWE, Raven is a bigger asset to wrestling asset to wrestling.
     
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  7. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    You're right - that's my fault !! Edge did fininsh runner up to Bret Hart. BUT WHERE DID RAVEN FINISH ???????????

    I don't disagree with you as a whole, but we're not looking at this debate as a whole. I think we have to base our arguments on the type of fan who watches wrestling today and is destined to watch wrestlinbg for the next 20-30 years. It's not guys in their twenties and thirties, it's kids under the age of eighteen !!

    As much as it pains me to type, because I'm a massve mark for HHH, the kids watching wrestling these days are going to believe that he's the greatest wrestler of all time. That's why it's so imperative for guys like Hogan and Flair to remain a part of the sport. Look how many people think The Rock or Stone Cold are the greatest. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but they're not !!!!! They carried the company through a competitive period, but that competition was coming from Hogan and Flair in WCW. If not for the many mistakes of Ted Turner and the head honchos at WCW, this may very well be a different discussion.

    Edge is going to be remembered in the same breath as HHH because of what he's done in recent years. Raven will be long forgotten because he hasn't done anything in recent years, or IMO anything highly notable in his entire career.

    You have to consider what the wrestling worlds lasting Impact will be 20-30 years from now in order to consider who will help shape that impact. Edge is heads and tails above Raven as far as his position in the wrestling world right now !! The things that are closest to our minds tend to influence them more over time.

    Guys like Hogan, HBK, Hart, Austin, etc... were not only centerpieces, they were living legends !!!!! In one word, they were great !!!!! Great is a word that's thrown around way too much in sports today. Michael Jordan was great - LeBron James is good. Think about that statement for a moment and consider the differences between the two players and I think you'll agree.

    Yes, Edge is a centerpiece of the company right now (when he's not injured), but he has a long way to go before he can be considered great. How can you consider a guy who's held the heavyweight strap 9 times, the tag straps 14 times (a record), the MITB case twice, been King of the Ring and headlined countless Wrestlemania's not a centerpiece ????? Essentially, you just classified Edge alongside Funaki. Edge is clearly on a level playing field with Cena or HHH right now and should continue to be that way for many more years.

    Maybe Edge does kiss Vince's backside - I don't know and I don't care. But if your boss controlled one of the single largest entertainment companies in the world and you were his employee with no other credible options - I suggest you ask how high as well !!! Maybe Raven should have done the same so that he could have played in the major leagues for the past decade instead of pissing everyone off along the way ???!!!

    It is easy to say that because it's simply true. Of course you're going to get results when you type "Clockwork Orange House of Fun Match" or "Hangman's Horror" in Google - there's nothing else that comes remotely close to carrying a name like those matches - that's what Google does !!!!!!!!

    While you're discovering the interweb, Google TLC match and see how many hits or results you get - I guarantee it's at least 20 times more than Raven's gimmick matches.

    Becca won't kill me - in fact, I think she'd agree because she actually knows wrestling. HBK is known for taking part in the first, and first televised ladder match. Yes, his match with Razor Ramon was epic and it carries a lot more weight when it comes to ladder matches because it's "technically" the first one (even though true wrestling fans know it was not).

    But HBK didn't revolutionize the match and he won't go down as the man who performed the best in ladder matches. It's quite possible Edge will not carry that monicker either, but he's been in many more classic ladder or TLC matches than HBK.

    Again, any true wrestling fan knows that one man does not make an epic match. Of course it took guys like the Hardys or the Dudleys to help make Edge & Christian look phenomenal in spot monkey matches. But without Andre, the Wrestlemania moment wouldn't have happened for Hogan. Without Bret Hart, the classic Ironman 'Mania match wouldn't have happened for HBK. I could keep going, but I think you see the point.

    That's a good question and I really have to ponder that for a moment. I can't say there have been any hardcore matchs that are truly "memorable" for me. I'm more of a wrestling purist and think all the weapons should be checked at the door personally. Give me two technical guys like Hart and Angle and I'm a happy chap.

    But ECW was never a big name until it was extinct. If it was as huge as you're making it out to be, it would still be around. It did have fans, but they were a very select crowd. Seriously dude - it was a cult like followed wrestling organization. Did I watch - sometimes, but it was hard as hell to find it on tv most times because it was never slotted in the same spot. Diehards loved it, devout wrestling fans checked it out occassionally, casual fans probably never saw it and channel flippers don't even know it existed. All of those aforementioned categories of people know the WWF / WWE in some way.

    That's not an insult, it's a statement of fact. Yes, ECW was the minor leagues.

    I agree, it did have its diehard fans, but not enough to elevate it to any real level of competition.

    So did Mr. Fuji, Captain Lou Albano, Bobby Heenan, Classy Freddie Blassie, etc... Raven may have been a manager, but seriously, you're reverting to his managerial skills in order to prove your point ???!!!

    Abso-friggin'-lutely !!!! His rivalry with Punk was awesome, but only die hard wrestling fans know about it !!!! It once again goes back to my point that leaving a lasting impact isn't about what you've actually done in this business, it's about what people remember and know you for. Raven is a great performer and he's had some great moments in wrestling, but the casual fan who's becoming the wrestling worlds normal fan doesn't know Raven at all.

    The WWE should recognize Flair's accomplishments, regardless of where they happened. But it's about who's watching wrestling today and who will watch wrestling 20-30 years from now. A prime example to illustrate your argument against mine is the NFL. The Browns have never won a Super Bowl and most football fans know that. But what's forgotten is how many AFL titles the Browns won pre Super Bowl - they're one of the most highly decorated teams in football history. BUT, unless it's the biggest prize of them all - the Vince Lombardi Trophy - no one remembers of cares. Unfortunately for the wrestling business, it's going to become much the same in the future.

    And every example of ECW and WCW you just mentioned are linked to whom ?????????? Without Vince and the WWE attaching their names to the defunct companies and promoting the crap out the products, they more than likely wouldn't have done anything in terms of money.

    I lived through the 90's too pal, but 20 years from now, the predominant wrestling fan will have parents and grandparents who lived through the 90's !!! That's when Edge and Raven's lasting impact will be determined and I guarantee Edge is remembered simply because of where his bread was buttered - regardless of whether it's right.

    I'll give you Flair and Sting, but tht's because they are considered icons in the industry. The NWA and WCW weren't always the minor leagues. At one time, the NWA was THEE preeminent wrestling company. WCW had a great four year run and Flair and Sting were great for them and WCW became the top wrestling organization for a period of time, but they had no lasting impact because they're gone now !!!! Again, today's wrestling fans probably never saw any of the original NWA or WCW episodes and that counts for a crapload when you decide lasting impact and legacies.

    As for the other names mentioned - Angle made his name in the Olympics and the WWF / WWE dude !!!! What he's doing right now in TNA is laudable and he'll more than likely be back with the WWE when his contract expires at the end of the year.

    The other guys were mediocre at best in name value, although Milenko was fantastic in the ring, but never given the push he should have received. He's more widely known for his "invasion" in the WWF / WWE with Benoit, Saturn and Eddie.

    Isn't that Google thing on the interweb great ?????!!!!!!! If you want me to believe you knew this, I call bollucks !! I can Google too... and tie my shoes, and wipe my backside, and feed myself, etc...


    Which is how many of todays wrestling fans even know about the past history of wrestling. That's what 24/7 is for, but a very small percentage of fans subscribe to that service, much the same as a very small percentage of fans buy PPV's. Unless it's on free tv (cable, satellite, online, etc...), most people don't see it so that's a tough argument to defend.

    The subject or main topic has not been lost - it's imperative that the other points raised be included in order to determine whether Edge or Raven is the bigger asset to the wrestling world.

    If the two men had both been part of the same organization for the same amount of time, all that stuff could be disregarded, but that's not the case.

    The points raised have helped me demonstrate why Edge is the bigger asset. It does suck that I've had to trash ECW, WCW, TNA, etc... because I'm a fan of all wrestling - not just the WWE. But I'm smart enough to realize that some organizations are simply better than others - regardless of why.

    A man who played a vital role in the largest wrestling company on the planet will always cast a larger shadow than a man who toiled just to stay in the business and earn a paycheck.
     
    #7
  8. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Wait, what the fans of today and the future will think?

    The question is, who is the biggest ASSET to wrestling, to quote the dictionary:

    as⋅set
    –noun
    1. a useful and desirable thing or quality:

    (the other meanings were obsolete here)

    It reads as who is the most useful to wrestling as a whole.

    Now to take this a little bit to one side to gain a perspective, my favourite football/soccer team is Arsenal. Whilst I have grown up with them for 20 years of my life, I still take time to find out what else makes them valueable to me, from their trophies, to key players, to managers. It's not about what today makes Arsenal great to me, but what those listed above from the past to present that makes it great. If you appreciate something with as much passion, you look up your history.

    Fans may play a role in this debate, but the argument is about which of these two benefits wrestling as a whole, where they take their place in history to go Raven is remembered for this... Edge is remembered for that....

    Yet the funny thing is, Edge got constantly pushed to the limit but he never got over as a top main event player until he feuded with John Cena, he was the one who played a big role in Edg'e ascension to the main event. Had Raven been given the same opportunity, he would be in the same position as Edge. But he was mis-used much like any other ECW wrestler in WWE, but he still made an impact, he actually gave that joke of a hardcore title some dignity when the likes of Al Snow & Steve Blackman disappeared.

    Naturally Edge is heads and tails about Raven about where he is right, but that's because Edge was always in the WWE. Raven still played a key role in his times in WWE, WCW, ECW, TNA, ROH and so on. He's been given titles, played key roles. He books matches, manages angles, creates new matches and been in some of the greatest angles outside of the WWE that got mimmicked because some of WWE's best angles did not come from themselves, they had to steal off of ECW back in the day for some great angles, the hardcore title was created because of how much support ECW got in the 90s and they still do it today with the lower leagues because they can. What does that mean for the lower leagues and the guys involved? It means they did their job, they were successful in getting the attention of the top guys, if you're not successful, you're not copied!


    Again to quote the dictionary

    cen⋅ter⋅piece
    –noun
    2. the central or outstanding point or feature

    That is what Hulk Hogan and all the names I mentioned above were! Because the company evolves around them! People tuned into WWE/WCW to see Hulk Hogan, Sting, Austin and they tune in now to see John Cena, he's the first name that comes up on people's lips for wrestling and WWE, because he is the centerpiece of WWE today!

    I never said that, I said he one of the company players that evolves around the centerpiece, not jobs constantly to them!

    As I said, Edge is a valueable asset to the WWE, Raven is a vauleable asset to wrestling. He didn't piss the WWE off, he let his contract expire and he moved on. He switched places for things like money and getting better offers. He was never fired from any of the companies he was with. He saw out his contract or left on his own accords. But yet he still continues to make impacts on where he, no matter how well known or recognised the promotion is. Fact is, Raven is still a bookable talent, he's great on the mike and he sold his feuds perfectly, he is branded one of the top 3 wrestlers in ECW's history, he certainly has done alot better than what most of the other members did!


    Not to forget it shares the same name as a girl group called TLC - Tender Loving Care

    Ladder match wise, Edge will be remembered for taking part in the first tag team ladder matches. HBK took part in the first ever WWE Ladder match, and two of the greatest ladder matches of all time, against Razor Ramon and Chris Jericho. Out of all the ladder matches in WWE, 16 of them feature the name Hardy in it, which gives them the credit for being the best at using ladders today.

    Out of the 7 TLC matches in WWE history, Edge has featured in 6 of them. Yes, it's no doubt he is the man associated with that gimmick match. But people remember these for the spots they took in the whole of the matches. The only thing I will give Edge credit for spot-wise is spearing Jeff Hardy at WM X-Seven, otherwise the matches are mroe known for the Dudleys 3Ding people through tables, Hardys jumping off the ladders onto guys onto tables and wrestlers like Cena, Matt Hardy, Bubba Ray Dudley & Undertaker taking some damn big spots that Edge has never done. It's not always about who takes part and who wins, but the moments that make them big. I mean Hell in a Cell wouldn't be huge had it not been for Mick Foley's big fall!

    You're joking, right?

    But doesn't matter if you don't watch it or not, you still heard of ECW back in the day, you knew of what went on, you even said you watched it at times. That is already proving it was a popular product. Just because something's popular doesn't mean it will be always a constant success. Some of the best tv shows we remember got cancelled before their time was done. ECW lasted at least a good ten years before he went bankrupt, the fact that it was around that long shows it wasn't minor. Me and my brother still have items from when ECW was around, one being a video game.

    Most people can't watch Smackdown because of that joke channel, MyNetwork TV not being available to everyone, does that mean Smackdown is not as big now? I still watch it despite the set back.


    By casual, you mean a WWE only fan?

    Die hard wrestling fans are the ones who make the history possible and better remembered because they're not biased about watching one company, they watch wrestling as a whole! But also it's not just the people who watch, it's the people who take part in it because they respect the other competitors who take part. If no-one had any respect for Raven, he wouldn't have been able to come up with the matches he did, pull off the angles, stunts and controversies he did, give him the championships in all of the different promotions.

    For Edge's case, he only needs Vince McMahon's support to give him a belt or his backing to do it, but it's because Vince wants Edge to do something for him. Edge doesn't go out there to benefit wrestling as a whole, he's representing a part of Vince McMahon that wants to tell a story. Edge doesn't come up with angles, he just acts in them. Raven provides more because he has more of an ability. Yes, his run in WWE was lacklustre but gave the Hardcore title some backing, he was restricted yet his more memorable stuff comes from when he has the ability to try new things.

    His feud with CM Punk put Punk on the map, that's how a great feud is defined, how you put your opponent over to get noticed. When Edge is put in a feud, he's already with an established wrestler, it shows he's not the person to give a feud of a lifetime, but to just keep wrestlers ike Triple H and Cena from not having any ring-rust. Compare that to Jericho, he gives some of the current crop who aren't having much success a new breathe of life!

    Then you're not a true fan if you only remember teams and people for what they won. Wrestling gets remembered for more than championships, it's stories, angles, matches, promos, segments, commentators. There's so many factors that gives wrestling it's history and not who the championships are. At the moment, belts mean nothing because they're just items in most people's eyes. The top thing people would think of last year is the Jericho-HBK feud, which only had a title as the very last match of their feud. You also have moments like Big Show vs. Mayweather, regardless of how crap it was, Ric Flair's retirement, Mike Adamle as GM of Raw! People remember these more than who was the current champion!

    Actually, WWE just saw ECW & WCW as cash cows and revived the former because they thought they could bring in more fans.

    I actually mention the ECW & WCW examples through memory, talking to people on the forums here, among other fans. WWE had nothing to do with my reminding of ECW & WCW because they have them with myself, the wrestling community and youtube for me to look up the past. Just because WWE provides doesn't mean they were responsible, they had something the fans loved and gave out small pieces, when they realised they could get alot of out this (after the Rise and Fall DVD), they brough it back.

    No lasting impact?! How about giving the original fame of Buddy Rogers, Ric Flair, Harley Race. WCW existed because of the NWA, what we did get from them? The nWo, Hulk's first heel turn, Sting, Goldberg, Jericho vs. Malenko, the Monday Night Wars, 84 weeks beating the WWE, among others.

    These were some of the great moments in wrestling history that were provided through the NWA & WCW and you're saying that these never had a lasting legacy. You claim today's wrestling fans may have never seen them, yes originally they may have not, but that's why they become better fans, they look up the history and see the best assets that came to wrestling, NWA, WCW & ECW will no doubt be the first that gets listed after WWE for what they did to wrestling. Just because you think people only watch WWE does not make them ignorant to not look up at what came before today.


    It's just WWE who gives today's fans knowledge of the past, it's places like this forum, it's fans like you and me. We share stories and experiences, WWE is just one of many ways to go back to the past.

    As I just had to counter you for a second time where most it was not about Raven and Edge, it was lost on what you think will be lost because fans are ignorant to forget the past. This is not the case, if were a true wrestling fan, you would think about the whole window, all you've done is prove why WWE is the bigger asset to wrestling and say that Edge is part of it, which is true, but he's not done anything else except be a WWE product, which as I've said, is only benefitting to the WWE and not wrestling as a whole.

    Looking upon the Tournament on here, alot of the people on here felt that Raven is underrated but yet they recognise his talents on the mike, gives memorable matches, provides controversy in some of his feuds and has a good enough championship collection from different companies. Being tied to one company just means you'll do what the company tells you, they only believe the company benefits themselves.

    People like Raven have had a backing no matter what company he's in, he's a big stable in ECW, WCW & TNA, not just a gimmick job squad like legacy, but an actual stable that runs havoc around the company they're in, what has Edge had for a stable outside the weak La Familia? Nothing! Edge only benefits the WWE, while I'm sure anyone would grab the chance to buy him should he ever get released, the fact is, Raven has been through many promotions but has left a mark where he's been and gone, he's done something that only so few men can do in the wrestling world. If he's not that much of an asset, he wouldn't be booked in great hardcore matches or put titles around his waist in a different promotion.

    Simple fact is, regardless of not having a long time in WWE, Raven has not wasted his time in wrestling, he has a brilliant mind and he applies it to wherever he goes. He's valueable because he can provide alot more to wrestling because he doesn't get lost in the WWE shuffle, he goes out and gets another great feud going in TNA, ROH, FWA and so on. Just because you're in the WWE does not make you a better asset, just over-exposed. Despite Raven not having that like Edge, he still stays around and he gets the attention of fans and wrestlers alike, he's a recognised champion and one of the best wrestlers to come out of ECW and still keeps a career going and I have a feeling there is still more to come out of the man who brought crucifixtions, 3 match types, giving the hardcore title some respect and also one of the best feuds in independent wrestling, that's how big of an asset he is to wrestling, and not just to WWE.
     
    #8
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  9. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    I can't disagree more. I don't care what Webster defines asset as, in sports and in wrestling, everyone's legacy is based upon their fan base.

    But since you brought up the definition, I'll use it to my advantage as well.

    as⋅set
    –noun
    1. a useful and desirable thing or quality

    Who do you think the majority of wrestling fans desire at this point in time ?? Better yet, over the years, who do you believe wrestling fans would rather see ?? I'm sure you'll say Raven because you have to argue for him, but the vast majority of wrestling fans would rather see Edge. Deep down, I think you know that and I know that.

    That being said, wrestling, just like any other business is about making money. No matter what you make, do or sell, the bottom line is profit. In the wrestling world, profit is based off of merchandise, tickets, PPV sales, etc... It's a point that can't be argued - Edge has always sold more tickets, more PPV's and more merchandise than Raven - and I think it's safe to say that it's more than 10 times as much.

    Throw out the in ring work of each individual and lets simply look at what type of asset Edge has been for the business based on money made. Every wrestler profits from his ability to help sell merchandise, tickets or PPV's. Not every wrestler has that capability - just ask Raven ???!!! Any wrestler can hit another guy with a chair - just ask Raven ???!!!

    Dude, way too much credit is being given here to both Edge and Raven. We all know it taks two guys to get "over". Austin needed McMahon. Hogan needed Andre, Savagae, Warrior, etc... Rock needed Austin. Cena needed Edge. Raven needed Sandman. I could go on.

    Raven was given opportunities, much like a lot of wrestlers are given opportunities to garner a crowds approval. Without fan support, you get buried - just ask Brian Kendrick or Matt Hardy (Version Heel).

    In this case, Edge went out and garnered the fans approval and support or jeers. Simply put - he got a reaction !!! Raven may have garnered "oohs" and "awes" but that's because he getting beat to hell and back with metal objects. I could put Funaki in the ring with Eugene and if there's metal objects involved, they'll get "oohs" and "awes" too !!!

    I have never once said that ECW couldn't HAVE been successful, but they folded so they weren't. TNA COULD be successful, but only time will tell.

    You say the WWE copied ECW - so what !!! That just helps prove my point that not many people were watching ECW because if they were, the WWE would not have been able to copy them and be successful.

    Right place, right time for Edge my friend. Wrong place, wrong time for Raven. If the roles had been reversed, I would probably be arguing for Raven instead of for Edge.


    You really should have left the dictionary of the shelf.

    I'll use your reference point again to burn you...

    cen⋅ter⋅piece
    –noun
    2. the central or outstanding point or feature

    How in sweet tap dancing Jesus' sake do you not place Edge on the same level as Cena ???!!! Edge was / is the centerpiece of Smackdown. He carried that show for how many months ??? Until the WWE recently gave Punk and Hardy their push, Edge was the only legit main event player on the brand.

    So wouldn't a valuable asset to the most recognized company in sports entertainment garner a bigger impact than a guy who's moved from company to company ?? Bigget impact = bigger asset.

    I'll agree that Raven is one of top three wrestlers in ECW history, alongside Dreamer, Sabu, RVD and Sandman. But lets see who the top three wrestlers in WCW's history are - Flair, Sting & Luger ???? How about the WWF / WWE (and I'll just use recent history here) - Hogan, Rock & Austin. I don't think Raven is anywhere near those guys caliber, despite your claim that he's in the top three historically for ECW.

    Edge will go down as one the greatest performers and wrestlers of this generation, all the while doing it for the greatest wrestling company of this generation.

    So Google tables, ladders and chairs and see what you get !!!!


    What about his hardcore match with Foley at Mania ?? What about the fact he was the first man to "snap" a ladder in half during a MITB match ?? What about his two MITB wins ?? What about his match where he "retired" the Undertaker ??

    Edge has had some highly prolific ladder / TLC / hardcore matches and there have been a lot of high energy, high impact spots.

    I'm not laughing.

    Let me teach you TV 101 since I work in tv - number of people watching = ratings = advertising rates = more money !!!!!! Popularity is great and word of mouth is great, but if no one's watching, advertiser's won't advertise. Without advertisements (commercials) there is no money. No money means no product - hence the bain of ECW.

    I'm glad you and your brother have ECW stuff, but you don't represent a majority. You represent a minority. And what platform is that game for ?? Sega Genesis ??
     
    #9
  10. Phoenix

    Phoenix WZCW's First Triple Crown Champion

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    Well in regards to what fans want, you can see on this forum that most people want the WWE to improve the product, especially on Raw. Wrestling does not have it's big fan base as of the past. But where it's easy for people to tune in to watch WWE and see Edge, people still tuned in to see Raven.

    When he was around in TNA, the ratings did raise up quickly, at the moment not, they're slowly gaining moment. Had it not been for the likes of Raven being around in TNA, it would be just "another" company, but they still continue to grow each day.

    Not necessarily true, people are buying for the WWE and Edge has been a part of it for years. Granted he's had merchandise and everything, but has Edge actually improved the ratings or sold DVD like say Brock Lesnar? The latter has managed to take away ratings from the WWE and Edge has been in when it's happened. What does say about Edge? He's not aiding the ratings on the WWE if they're going away to watch someone else?

    But also while wrestling is about money, it's about entertainment. They both entertain the crowds, but yes despite not being in the big league, Raven still entertains and makes money for the company he is with, no matter how lower league they are. Edge has never given WWE a boost in ratings when he's been a World Champion, it's stayed the same and he's been there since the ratings started dropping from 2003 and they still drop today!

    Are you saying that Raven can't sell products or tickets? If he hadn't been around in ECW, they wouldn't had some of their most brutal matches in PPV history. Raven was a guy that made ECW PPVs sellable. Even his feud with Punk sold out crowds for ROH & FWA, the match they had in Britain was a complete sell out, and wrestling is not as big here, but the fact that this feud sold out an international arena shows he is quite a character to sell out wherever he goes. Yes it may be lower leagues and not WWE, but it's still the fact they go to Raven matches to watch him wrestle because he will entertain them.

     
    #10
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  11. ztwhite

    ztwhite The Future Mr. Kelly Kelly

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    When Awesome Kong joined TNA, ratings went up.

    When Bobby Lashley joined TNA, ratings went up.

    When Mick Foley joined TNA, ratings went up.

    When you're barely drawing a number and you sign a mid-major network tv deal, ratings will go up. To say that Raven played a role in increasing those ratings is like me saying Awesome Kong helped drive ratings up - it's plausible.

    I'm not so sure people are buying simply because it says WWE. There's a reason Vince is bending over backwards to keep Jeff Hardy right now and it's not because he's the greatest wrestler who's ever lived. There's a reason why guys like Rey Mysterio and the Great Khali are still employed and it's because they're adored by hispanics and indians (is that what you call people from India ?? sounds ignorant :( )

    Vince wants to sell his product to everyone, everywhere, at all times. And the boys in the back do take pride in entertaining, but there's not a single one of them who would do it for free on a regular basis. The vast majority of their wealth is based on selling "stuff", whether it's shirts, armbands, foam fingers or tickets. Someone like Funaki (poor guy keeps picked on in this debate) isn't living the high life because he wrestles every now and again. Yes, he's doing what he obviously loves, but he's also getting paid and in all honesty, probably doesn't have a profession to fall back on.

    Edge sells... A LOT. At one time, his "live sex celebration" was the highest rated segment broadcast on Raw in a very long time. Sure, it was a gimmick and we all knew there wouldn't be live sex on Raw, but we were damn sure hoping.

    Regardless of which time period it was or which company Raven was employed by, his merchandise was never front and center at the counter. His matches were good and he his good on the mic and he does have a loyal following - but to say he has "outdrawn" Edge or more people tune in to see Raven is simply ficticious. That alone makes Edge a bigger asset to the industry because it's not all about entertaining. The industry paints with a much broader brush and Edge's brush is much more broad, regardless of which company he's working for.

    No, I'm not saying that Raven can't sell products or tickets - I'm saying that Raven couldn't sell products or tickets a s a stand alone guy.

    Simple analogy : lots of threads on the forums ask which wrestler TNA could sign that would instantly give them a massive push... major ratings spike, legitimize them as competition, etc... A few names are mentioned time and time again - HHH, Cena & Edge. TNA already signed Raven and how's that working out for them ?? Yes, he has a devout fan base and again, he's a good performer, but his name recognition and drawing power simply isn't on the same level with Edge. And I know you'll say "but Edge has been in the WWE his entire career" and I say, yes he has. As I said before, if Raven would have stayed at the main event level, this may be a different discussion. But he didn't, so you can't say he's a bigger asset to the wrestling world because of it !!!

    No, no, no, no, no. Austin became recognized with "The 3:16 Moment". He showed everyone he had "it" and could bear the burden of the company on his shoulders. He became over, beloved, respected and adored during his feud with McMahon. That "little bit extra" you speak of is a little bit undervalued. Wrestling became as big as it did in the 90's because of Austin/McMahon and there's simply no debate about that !!!!!!

    Again, I don't disagree that ECW are loyal, but there were/are far less ECW fans then there are WWF/WWE fans. Maybe it's a crap argument in your estimation, but more fans equals bigger asset because fans buy tickets, PPV's, merchandise, etc... No one is going to "ooh" and "awe" if you promote a Raven/Angle technical wrestling match - it simply won't happen. But if you promote a Raven/Angle hardcore match, it may get a few extra looks.

    Before you say Edge isn't exactly a technical wrestler, go back and watch his Smackdown match with John Morrison from a few weeks back. It's easily one of the best matches of the year and there's no chairs or ladders or barb wire bats. Raven has made a name for himself because he'll take the "big shot" or deliver the "big shot". Edge may have become recognized because of his spot monkey tactics, but he evolved into a well rounded wrestler. I can't say the same about Raven because we never see Raven in anything other then a gimmick match (even though I'm sure I could find one on You Tube or something - most people don't watch wrestling on video internet sharing sites).

    No one thing ECW did ever received a "taboo stir across the media world". They received media attention because people truly thought someone was going to die !!! They broke boundaries when it came to violence on free tv. They started a revolution when it comes to broadcasting violent wrestling matches where kids could watch. People were outraged that the FCC allowed this type of stuff, but no one angle was singled out. The entire product was scrutinized as a whole.

    The first lesbian kiss on tv happened on LA Law in 1992 and the first mainstream attention a lesbian kiss received was on Roseanne in '94. No one really blinked an eyelid when wrestling incorporated lesbian kisses. When they went full blown "R" rating... now that's a different story.

    HHH was on Smackdown for less than a year !! Didn't Taker feud with Edge for the better part of a year or more ?? You think Vickie Guerrero would have been half the heel character she was without Edge ?? Edge was given the workload on Smackdown and he flourished in the role.

    Yes, ratings did drop when Taker "retired", but anytime a main event player leaves tv, ratings are going to drop - it's inevitable. It doesn't matter if it's Cena, HHH, HBK, Taker or Edge.

    All wrestling promotions, no matter what letters are attached to them are decling in ratings. Based on the ratings for the Attitude Era, sure, ratings are low. But do you realize that when Smackdown draws a 2.9 for example, that means that 2.9 percent of American households with tv's were watching Smackdown. It's estimated that there's 114.5 million homes with tv's in the US, so it sounds like a small percentage, but if you do the math, it's still pretty impressive. Edge is a major reason why people are watching.

    But there was no history to compete with in ECW !!! The WWF / WWE has dozens of years to compare. That's an absurd statement to try and prove your point with. If you must - where would Raven rank in the WWF / WWE history compared to Edge ???!!! Enough said.

    You do realize wrestling is scripted right ?? Giving Williams his first loss ?? It's not like he knocked him out on HBO's Boxing After Dark.

    You also realize storylines are written and guys are expectd to follow them, right ??

    As for Raven doing it week in and week out... HE HAD TOO !!! Because he didn't have anything else to fall back on. His gimmick as a valet sucked, so he had to develop something that could earn him a paycheck. Whatever works for ya' I guess, but if I was shoveling shit for a living and a better opportunity came along, I'd take it. Raven is stuck in his niche because he doesn't have an opportunity to do something different.

    Everyone always believes the grass is greener on the other side. ECW was talked about because people wanted to see what getting beat next to death was like. It's not because they had the most talented wrestlers or the best production values. It's finding out what people are talking about... and in this case, wrestling fans and politicians who tried to banish ECW.

    A company is only as big as it's most valuable assets and it doesn't matter what company it is. Take the Big Mac away from McDonalds and give it to Wendy's and Dave Thomas' signs would more than likely bolster "over a billion served".

    I'll agreee, Raven did some angles that were copied by the big boys, but hundreds of wrestlers have done angles that have been / are being copied. TNA has built a company based off of copied angles !!! But that doesn't justify him as a bigger asset, it just means that he wasn't big enough to garner mass amounts of attention, so a more capable, bigger person and company made the angles work.

    Wrestling fans will remember the big names and the big spots and the big company. Edge ultimately earns the bigger asset monicker by being a big name in the big spots for the big company.

    So after Austin, Rock, Lesnar & Angle left, the WWE folded ??? I must have missed that.

    Austin is starring in "C" movies, the Rock is a legit superstar who was always way too talented and charismatic for wrestling, Lesnar is not human and putting himself through pain for the largest MMA promotion (maybe Raven should try MMA - he suffers enough pain for minor league promotions ??!!) and Angle is miserable in TNA and more than likely will return to the WWE without his wife, kids, vertebrae and wrestling world dignity.
     
    #11
    Mr. TM likes this.
  12. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    This was the best match of the week by far, and I must give you two a standing ovation. Phoenix, you have been impressing me from the beginning. ztwhite, i knew when you signed up you had some great stuff to bring to the debates. I wish I could give you each 5, but alas, that is not how I roll. Instead I will give these points out.


    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    Ugh to hard to call... Phoenix.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    Ugh... fuck it, no one gets this point.

    Informative- 1 point
    Ugh... too much great information... equal... Phoenix

    Emotionality- 1 point
    Blood, Sweat and tears... holy fuck you two are great. but really, ztwhite did a better job at this... fuck this is close.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    Ugh... yeah, I have said that, haven't I. I give this point to... ztwhite.

    TM rates this 2 points Phoenix to 2 points ztwhite. And now I hate and love both of you.
     
    #12
  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity Of Debate: Phoenix, you kept things shorter this week, but remember to always split up your main argument and rebuttal. I've mentioned before that this not only gives us judges a chance to weigh your main argument, but it is also fair to the individual who goes first. ztwhite, your argument was laid out nicely.

    Point: ztwhite

    Punctuality: In this instance, impatience was a virtue, ztwhite.

    Point: ztwhite

    Informative: Ironically, impatience wasn't a virtue here, ztwhite. Phoenix is usually a calm, respectful guy, but you taunting him seemed to make him much more vigilant of your evidence. Unfortunately for you, Phoenix has a keen eye for what's objective and what's subjective, and he justifiably called you out on many of the assertions you made in regards to Raven.

    Point: Phoenix

    Emotionality: Phoenix, you were just as passionate as you were about Lita last week, but a bit more feisty.

    Point: Phoenix

    Persuasion: Although this is a tough decision, I'll go with Phoenix here. Like you did with Lita last week, you kept the focus on Raven and didn't spend the majority of your time discrediting the accomplishments of Edge. If you can't tell already, I don't highly value arguments that claim one wrestler is better than another because the other wrestler sucks. Such an argument still leaves open the question of why the wrestler one is arguing for doesn't suck as much.

    Point: Phoenix

    tdigle's Score
    ztwhite: 2
    Phoenix: 3
     
    #13
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  14. Ty Burna

    Ty Burna WZCW World Heavyweight Champion

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    Clarity of Debate: Tough to call, but I'll give the point to Phoenix

    Punctuality: Easy one here, ztwhite.

    Informative: I think Phoenix was better in this regard.

    Emotionality: I give ztwhite the point here, I think he showed a lot of heart in his defending of Edge.

    Persuasion: I think Phoenix had a better persuasive argument going here. Though I have to say this entire debate was hard to judge.

    Phoenix: 3
    ztwhite: 2
     
    #14
  15. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Very difficult to choose, but I will go with Phoenix on account of keeping focused on Raven.

    Point: Phoenix

    Punctuality: Like Tdigs said, impatience helped ztwhite a little bit.

    Point: ztwhite

    Informative: There was a crazy amount of information here, and I think Phoenix had a little extra edge (no pun intended) to prove Raven over Edge.

    Point: Phoenix

    Emotionality: Phoenix had something brewing inside, he really wanted to prove what Raven has done for the wrestling world.

    Point: Phoenix

    Persuasion: Phoenix stuck on with Raven, not trying to chop out ztwhite's arguments about Edge's accomplishments. If it gets into a "he sucks less than my guy sucks" tussle, it doesn't go anywhere. Phoenix stuck to his guns, explaining Raven's impact on the business as a whole, whereas ztwhite was trying to say other companies were/are minor leagues for going out of business or not being as important.

    Point: Phoenix

    CH David scores this Phoenix 4, ztwhite 1.
     
    #15
  16. Blade

    Blade "Original Blade"

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    Clarity: Phoenix, his stuff was easier to read.

    Punctuality: ztwhite, see above.

    Informative: Phoenix pulled out some great stuff to use in this debate, he gets the point.

    Emotionality: ztwhite was quite passionate in his Edge argument, he deserves the point here.

    Persuasion: I'm not a big Raven fan, and I'm a pretty big Edge fan, but dammit Phoenix your arguements were just great.


    Phoenix 3 ztwhite 2
     
    #16
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