Week 2: Franchize1990 -versus- SkeptiKal

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    The better asset to the Professional Wrestling World? Brock Lesnar vs Edge

    SkeptiKal is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
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  2. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    Hey Franchize, i'll be debating that Lesnar was the better asset to the Professional Wrestling World, looking forward to a good debate, good luck.
     
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  3. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Looking forward to the debate too and goo luck.

    Just need to know who's going first?
     
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  4. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    You can go first my man, i'll be out till later on anyway.
     
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  5. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    Pro Wrestling Assets and Why Edge is Better Than Lesnar​



    World Wrestling Entertainment, and professional wrestling promotions in general, needs to have certain assets that wrestlers possess in order to become successful and popular. Some of these assets are: longevity, marketability, in-ring character's versatility, and exposure outside of the ring. If you were to ask me which wrestler would I want on my company between Brock Lesnar and Edge, I would choose Edge without hesitation.

    One of the most important, if not the most, asset a wrestler can have is Marketability. Hulk Hogan, The Rock, Steve Austin, and most recently John Cena have been very marketable and is one of the reasons they are always in the spotlight and is always why they're spoken in high regard. Edge recently has earned the right to toss his name in the hat with some of these people. Edge continues to sell T-Shirts, blankets, action figures, and his Rated R Spinner spinner belt. The greatest thing that Brock did for the WWE was becoming the Heavyweight Champion of the UFC.

    Edge's longevity with the WWE shows how loyal he is to the business and how reliable he would be if I were to have him in my company. He has spent eleven long years with the company, eight of which he spent without a WWE/ World Heavyweight Title around his waist. He is a patient superstar who doesn't mind doing the little things before he gets called to the main event. Brock was given everything a rookie in the business could dream of. High-profile matches with some of the greatest names in wrestling history, a WWE Undisputed title reign within his first year in the business, and a very bright, and lucrative future ahead of him. Yet, he stated that he was miserable in the business and left after only two years in the business.

    A wrestling character's versatility is also an important asset that wrestlers need. Edge's character has shifted and evolved throughout his eleven years in the WWE. From being the loner who made his way to the ring from the crowd, to joining with Christian and Gangrel forming The Brood, to the Rated R Superstar, Edge has been able to play any character the company asks of him to a great extent. Lesnar, on the other hand, was always promoted as the Next Big Thing and nothing more even after he won the WWE Championship.

    Making special appearances outside of the ring and gaining the promotion popular is something that owners should look for when determining who's a better asset to the business. Edge has appeared on many popular TV shows and movies such as Mad TV, Deal or No Deal, and Highlander: Endgame. In each of his appearances, the WWE was mentioned in some sort of way. In his two year run with the WWE, Lesnar hardly showed his face in any commercials.
     
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  6. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    The main issue that you have to consider before even answering is that the question states who is the bigger asset to the professional wrestling world, not the WWE. Now while I agree that Edge is an asset to the WWE, he isn’t a huge asset in the world of professional wrestling. Edge isn’t really known outside of the wrestling world, I’m sure a lot more people know who Brock Lesnar is than they do Adam Copeland. The question isn’t who would you have in your copany, the question is who is the bigger asset to the world of professional wrestling.

    I agree marketability is huge, and I have to disagree and say Brock is much more marketable than Edge. Brock is a freak of nature, he’s a monster with a mean streak who just wants to win, no matter what he does in life. Brock can be advertised for wrestling, playing football or for MMA and will always be a big draw. The WWE skyrocketed Brock to the top, and you know why, because he’s so much more marketable and believable as a top face in a wrestling promotion. Brock sold merchandise, here comes the pain t-shirts, next big thing t-shirts and was even featured on and had a game named after him; Smackdown Here Comes the Pain. Brock is quickly becoming an infamous but popular man in UFC, fans know his name and still jeer him for being in the WWE, as do the media, this is constantly giving free advertising and publicity for pro wrestling.

    Yes Edge has been with the WWE for a long time, however, this doesn’t make him a better asset to the pro wrestling world, he isn’t drawing in new fans, he isn’t gaining attention to the WWE, he’s very much a low profile company man. The biggest thing Edge ever did for WWE, was having an affair with Lita. This is about as much outside publicity that Edge ever created and he did so by cheating with one of his best friends girlfriend. Edge might have longevity in the company, but he gets injured an awful lot and does not get long title runs, showing that maybe the WWE does not think he is a big enough asset. This isn’t all about the WWE, Brock has been at the top of WWE sure, but he was also given the NJPW title despite only being there a year, he had big publicity joining the Minnesota Vikings and is at the top of the UFC, he is still generating publicity for wrestling without even being there.

    Edge has been heel and face, yet in both circumstances the WWE won’t give him a long title run, either because he doesn’t draw, isn’t very legitimate or doesn’t really interest people. He’s a great company man, but that doesn’t make him an asset to the pro wrestling world. Brock was made undisputed champion within one year of debuting and was given a long title run, this shows Vince thought he was the bigger asset, he knew people would be interested in seeing this gargantuan of a man as WWE champion. Brock was in the WWE for 2 years and he made a much bigger impact than Edge has in 11 years. Brock changed the way wrestlers have been pushed, changed who would be given titles and how quickly, and he continues to gain publicity for wrestling. It’s obvious he’s the bigger asset otherwise Vince wouldn’t be trying to get him back with a lucrative multi million dollar deal.

    We can’t really compare outside appearances of the two, seeing as Brock obviously wins. So Edge has been on a few t-shirts, Brock has wrestled in Japan, he has played for an NFL team, he is fighting in the top MMA company in the world, releasing his own clothing lines, been on the front of magazines and giving interviews on multiple TV channels. How can you say he hardly showed his face? Week after week there was promo’s of him, he was featured on their magazine and the front cover of their game franchise. After he left the WWE, he gave interviews about his time their and has said he’s happy to come back and put anyone over at Wrestlemania. The guy should not e looked down upon because he has other dreams he wants to achieve. Brock was a huge asset to the WWE and is still a huge asset to the world of pro wrestling, people are always reminded where he came from, this also leads to new people watching WWE, maybe to spot the next big thing.

    I would say Brock is definitely the bigger asset to the world of professional wrestling, despite the short amount of time he stayed there. Brock was proved an asset when he was given the WWE Undisputed title after being in the WWE for just a year. Vince knows that this guy is an unbelievable asset, which is why he’s still trying to get him back to the WWE. Brock has wrestled in Japan, he’s wrestled at college and now he’s using a wrestling style in the growing world of MMA. The guy is wrestling through and through and gets publicity for it, be it good or bad. Lesnar is constantly reminded he’s from pro wrestling, MMA fans hate him for it, the media bash him for it, but any publicity is good publicity.

    Seeing Lesnar got me and two of my friends interested in wrestling and now MMA, I’m sure it’s the same for many other people, he draws people in with his outrageous strength and size and is an undeniable asset to the world of wrestling. Lesnar sold merchandise, held major titles in America and Japan, he drew fans in with great wrestling and strength, he changed the way things were done in the WWE and if he left UFC tomorrow for the WWE, I can guarantee that WWE ratings would go through the roof, because he is that much of an asset.
     
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  7. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    A lot more people know who Brock Lesnar is than Adam Copeland because Lesnar is the current champion of a fast rising sport and he did it in very quick manner. If Edge was to, hypothetically, leave the WWE altogether to pursue another sport, say soccer, and become an international superstar he would be just as big if not bigger than Lesnar is now. The most known names in the wrestling world are usually the ones who are successful in other areas of life such as in sports, movies, and writing. Brock has been able to achieve this in the form of mixed martial arts while Edge hasn't done anything but make special appearances as a wrestler.

    Brock Lesnar has taken/converted more fans from the WWE to the MMA world. According prowrestling.com wrestlingnewsworld.com, the ratings for the WWE has dropped from when Lesnar was champion (averaged around a 4.2) to today's show (an approx. 3.6 average). So while he's generating more publicity for wrestling, it has not equaled in an influx of pro wrestlers around the world. Those people see a much better future because of what Lesnar has done in UFC in such a quick time. Edge remaining loyal to
    the pro wrestling circuit usually results in trust from the owners and more opportunities to become the face of their respective companies. It wasn't too long ago that Edge was regarded as one of the top heels in all of the business.

    Big wrestlers who are freakishly huge and/or athletic have always been pushed very far in the professional wrestling business. Andre the Giant has captured world titles in the NWA and the IWA in addition to the WWF/E and was one half of the reason a record 96,000 people packed into Detroit to watch WrestleMania live. Hulk Hogan, the other half of the WrestleMania headline, was the face of 80's wrestling and is still a pro wrestling icon to this day. Bruno Sammartino is built similar to Brock Lesnar and he has the longest title reign out of any other WWE superstar. The Big Show, when he started in WCW, won the WCW World Heavyweight Championship in his debut match with Hulk Hogan. Bill Goldberg went 108-0 before winning his first WCW World Heavyweight Championship Title then kept it for another 65 matches before getting cheated in his first loss. Ex-NJPW Heavyweight Champion Manabu Nakanishi was close to 6'2'' 265 pounds.

    Lesnar has the same affect and he drew me into becoming a casual MMA fan. But again, if Edge were to leave pro wrestling and be an international superstar he would be just as big if not bigger than Brock. When Lesnar was in the NFL, he didn't attract any new Viking fans to come and watch training camp and when he would get into fights, ESPN would refer to making jokes like "The WWF is coming out" of him and he just looked out of place. In order to get casual MMA fans like myself into pro wrestling, he would have to go back to the WWE or some other pro wrestling promotion and until that happens, pro wrestling will have people like Edge to bank on to keep the businsess afoalt during the hard times and propel it to the next level during the good.
     
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  8. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    But Edge hasn’t, you can’t say he’d be bigger than Lesnar, that’s an outlandish claim to make as it’s completely unfounded. This statement doesn't even disprove how Brock is an asset, it just shows that he is a bigger asset because Lesnar is far more well know than Edge.

    And this right here, is exactly why Brock is the bigger asset. He’s far more popular than Edge and well known outside of wrestling, if he were to come back to wrestling, people on the outside would know about it and they would tune in to see what he was doing. Brock may not be loyal, he may not be a better heel or even a better wrestler. However, he IS the bigger asset, Brock coming back to the WWE or going to TNA would be very well publicized, he could create much more of a buzz in the world of professional wrestling than Edge could.

    Exactly, this isn’t an argument against Lesnar, this supports why he is a better asset. If Lesnar can take fans to the MMA, why couldn’t he take them back? All of this is just showing how much of an influence Lesnar is on people. This makes him a massive asset, if Lesnar came back to wrestling, other people would want to become pro wrestlers, he would bring back the 4.2 ratings he used to get. Vince McMahon knows how much of an asset he is and obviously wants him back.


    Sorry dude but I don’t now what your going on about here. All of this is irrelevant, they’re impressive stats, but all your basically doing is listing big wrestlers who’ve had success. Brock was a big man, so what? According to these stats that makes him very impressive and very useful and an asset to pro wrestling because people obviously seeing big men pushed as all the big men you listed have had success, and if they weren’t assets, they would not be pushed.

    Exactly, Lesnar is a big draw, even outside of wrestling. You can’t say the same for Edge and you certainly can’t compare him to Brock as he’s never done anything of not outside of pro wrestling. This is why Brock is more of an asset, because if he were to go to any wrestling promotion, it would draw attention and undoubtedly increase ratings.

    Who are you to say he attracted no new Viking fans, I‘m sure some people were interested at the prospect of a major powerhouse and WWE star signing for an NFL team. Also, him and the WWF being mentioned on the news is more and more publicity that he’s gaining for pro wrestling. And your last paragraph proves why he is such an asset, he could bring in new fans in an instant. He has said he would like to go back to wrestling one day, and when he does I’m sure people who know who he is will be looking out for him.
     
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  9. Franchize1990

    Franchize1990 Pre-Show Stalwart

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    So, according to this, if Will Smith, David Beckham, or Lil' Wayne were to sign with a pro wrestling organization, he is then the bigger asset to pro wrestling than Edge due to being far more well known to the non wrestling public? If that is true, then why not have all well known celeberties wrestle each other and have the credible wrestlers like Edge, who trained in Stu Hart's dungeon, try their hand at something to gain celebrity status before returning?


    Well, in your last post, you stated that:

    My list that I gave was to show you that there were wrestlers way before and after Brock that have had the same kind of pushes that he had when he was in the WWE. If you want to look at someone that has changed the way that wrestlers have been pushed, look no further than Edge. He was the first to cash in the Money In The Bank contract to win a championship. The way Edge cashed it in was so successful that the other nationally televised promotion, TNA, stole the concept and implemented it into their own version. Furthermore, the way he cashed the briefcase in added a new element into wrestling, smarts. No longer did you have to be the biggest guy, the stronger guy, or the tougher guy to win a title. Now, smart wrestlers have just as good as a chance to be at the top of the mountain.


    I agree that many people were interested in the Minnesota Vikings during the 2004 training camp. But, to say that Lesnar attracted new fans is a poor assumption. The people who were already Viking fans could care less because he wasn't going to help the team anytime soon with his very limited football skill and the interested people that followed Brock would turn the channel on their television sets when they had realised that he was nowhere close to seeing any playing time on the field. It was a good storyline but it wasn't going to go anywhere. It was like the whole Donald Trump thing on RAW, it got a lot of people interested (highest rated show of the year according to wrestlingnewsworld.com) but most of the ones that watched it did not come back the next week (dropped close to the average ratings).
     
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  10. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    No, because Will Smith, David Beckham & Lil’ Wayne aren’t collegiate wrestlers, they aren’t huge monstrous men who could believably be at the top of a pro wrestling promotion. Brock Lesnar has the fame and popularity, but he’s also a great athlete and a great wrestler, this is why he’s the better asset, he’s got fans outside of wrestling and is well known, he’s also a colossus who looks like he actually could destroy a man with his bare hands. Edge unfortunately isn’t a bigger asset despite his loyalty, Brock would and already has (as you stated) drawn bigger ratings, if he were to come back to wrestling, he would bring the ratings.

    That’s ok then, it’s just that you didn’t explain why you were listing wrestlers. However, I never meant that Brock made big guys get pushed, I meant that rookies are not pushed to the stars immediately, long title reigns aren’t handed out to rookies for fear of them leaving, he changed all of that, yet the WWE still want him back, you know why? Because he’s a huge asset to have, he draws ratings, interests casual fans such as you and I (as we stated) and is believable on the top of a wrestling promotion.

    I was waiting for you to bring up MITB, but lets be honest, whoever won that first MITB, it was going to be groundbreaking, give it to Hardcore Holly and it would have been a great idea and revolutionary. If were going to give anyone credit for Money In The Bank, it has to go to Jericho, who’s idea it was and McMahon for using it. Edge should not get credit for MITB, he was just lucky enough to be given the first run at it, granted he made it work, but this does not make him a bigger asset than Lesnar.

    How? How in the hell is that a bad assumption. How do you know who became a fan of the Vikings when Lesnar went there, have you personally asked every Vikings fan? The fact is that Brock has made people fans of MMA, why couldn’t he have made a few people a fan of the Vikings, I’m not saying it will be a high number but you never know. All of this is irrelevant anyway, who cares whether things worked out at the Vikings, Brock still got publicity for wrestling, got people interested in seeing how a wrestler would do in the NFL, all of Brock’s other endevours just make him more of an asset to professional wrestling.
     
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  11. SK

    SK I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaack

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    Brock Lesnar is a bigger asset to pro wrestling than Edge is.
    Brock Lesnar is a monster of a man, he’s a bona fide collegiate wrestler and looks like he could kill a man with his bare hands. Lesnar at the top of a wrestling promotion, be it WWE/ TNA/ NJPW makes sense, these promotions would love for him to be in their promotion and he would be a main eventer, selling PPVs and drawing ratings.

    As Franchize mentioned, Brock used to draw 4.2 ratings, compared to today's 3.6. If Brock were to come back to wrestling, ratings would obviously increase, people are interested in seeing this gargantuan wrestle. Lesnar is not just a monster, but he’s an accomplished collegiate wrestler and mixed martial artist, this makes him a huge asset to wrestling. With his background he is legitimate and believable at the top of any wrestling promotion.

    Since leaving wrestling, Brock has gained fame and notoriety for his work in UFC and his unsuccessful tenure at the Minnesota Vikings in the NFL. With Brock’s fame, size and background, why would anybody not want him in their wrestling promotion? With fame comes fans, fans who follow Brock and his endeavours, this would mean bringing new fans back to wrestling and obviously higher ratings, PPV buys and merchandise, hence another reason why he is a huge asset.

    As me and Franchize already said, Brock made us casual fans of UFC. Now he could easily do that again for a wrestling promotion, now you can throw all the ifs round you like ‘if Edge was an MMA fighter…’ but the fact is that he isn’t. Edge isn’t accomplished outside of wrestling and this is why Brock is the bigger asset, for his ability to attract new fans and therefore increase ratings, PPV buys and merchandise sales.

    Don’t get me wrong, Edge is also a good asset, but only to the WWE. He’s only really ever been in the WWE (minus a small jobber spell in WCW), he doesn’t really appear outside of the WWE and certainly doesn’t have as many fans as Lesnar. Lesnar would and has be higher on the card than Edge, this is because McMahon knows Lesnar is the bigger asset to wrestling, he knows fans buy into him as champion. Edge’s loyalty is great, but he has never increased ratings or popularity for NJPW, he couldn’t bring fans from MMA to WWE and he isn’t a collegiate wrestler who is massively built.

    The WWE and Vince McMahon know how much of an asset Brock is, and that is why there are reports of Vince trying to sign Brock back to the WWE, Brock has always drawn ratings, Vince knows this and obviously sees that Lesnar can draw ratings and fans, he is a big asset to the pro wrestling world as he gains and has fans both in and outside of the wrestling world.

    In conclusion, Brock Lesnar is a bigger asset than Edge, his size, fans, and accomplishments make Lesnar the bigger asset. Lesnar obviously draws more fans as is shown with higher ratings when he was champion in the WWE, he has made a multitude of people fans of UFC and could easily do the same again for wrestling. If you gave any wrestling promoter the choice of Lesnar or Edge, I would guarantee that they would choose Lesnar, for his ability to draw, for his fans outside of the wrestling world and for his legitimate MMA and college accomplishments coupled with his size, making him a great choice as the face of a wrestling promotion.
     
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  12. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Great debate you two, I have really enjoyed both of your work here.

    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    F1990, you are a beautiful lad, and so are your posts. Keep it up, and you will score this point a lot.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    SK gets this point for trying to keep the match to go longer, and using his time beautifully. I wish F1990 would have continued, and it would have been one of the two best matches.

    Informative- 1 point
    I like to see a more narrowed down approach from you F1990, and I would have given you this point if you had, but I am giving it to SK for providing great information from what he had.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    Now the information may have been to broad, but I feel your emotion came at me with full Brock Lesnar force. You get this point here for that F1990.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    At the end of the day, really I could have gone with either side here, but I think that the Brock side was dominant and must say that SK gets this point. But great job on both sides.

    TM rates this 3 points SkeptiKal to 2 points Franchize1990.
     
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  13. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity Of Debate: SK, always, always put your opening argument first instead of heading right in for the rebuttal. This allows the judges to weigh your main arguments before getting into the objections that each debater raises in regards to the other debater's main argument.

    Point: Franchize1990

    Punctuality: Read what TM said above me.

    Point: SK

    Informative: Both of your arguments seemed to be very well-researched. I'll give the point to Franchize1990, but it was a tough decision.

    Point: Franchize1990

    Emotionality: SK, I really bought into what you said about Brock Lesnar because of how passionate you seemed about him. This makes me want to reexamine my mild dislike for him.

    Point: Sk

    Persuasion: A good chunk of persuasion for me comes from hearing what the debaters have to say initially about the wrestlers they are arguing for. SK, please take the advice I gave you in the first point. Although you came up with some good objections to Franchize1990's positive evaluation of Edge, I couldn't help but think: yeah, but why should I then choose to think that Brock Lesnar is worth more to the world of professional wrestling? I could have easily answered this question had you posted your main argument first.

    Point: Franchize1990

    tdigle's Score
    Franchize1990: 3
    Sk: 2
     
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  14. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: Both were clear, the only downside for SK was, and I am reiterating what Tdigs said, you jumped right into the rebuttal and didn't properly prepare an opening argument.

    Point: Franchize1990

    Punctuality: What TM said.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Informative: I thought that SK brought very good information, and I also feel that some of the information that Franchize brought kind of favored Lesnar.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Emotionality: SK was really into Brock Lesnar in this debate, and even admitted that Lesnar helped get him into wrestling and MMA, if I recall correctly. I didn't get much of an emotion feel from Franchize.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    Persuasion: I never used to think about how Brock could potentially be an asset to the industry, especially after leaving after 2 years in the business. I had originally thought, Edge by a landslide. But SK proved me wrong. He brought up ratings, getting fans of WWE to watch UFC, and could most likely due vice versa if he ever wanted. He is on top of the UFC, and that kind of publicity would be huge if he ever came back to WWE.

    Point: SkeptiKal

    CH David scores this SkeptiKal 4, Franchize1990 1
     
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  15. Marquis

    Marquis Registered User

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    Clarity - Franchize
    What Diglett said. A opening post is always important to know where you stand.

    Punctuality - SK
    What TM said.

    Informative - SK
    Sk brought all the information he needed to prove Brock is a better draw and asset for the wrestling world, while also using Franchize's information to his advantage.

    Emotionality - SK
    I didn't feel much emotion from either, just stating facts, but if I had to pick I say SK for how he described Lesnar.

    Persuasion - SK
    I greatly dislike Brock, I still do, so I came in a bit biased to this debate, but SK had convinced me that Brock's outside exposure and fanbase makes him the better asset, even though Edge is twice the wrestler.

    Sk - 4 points
    Franchize - 1 point.
     
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  16. Blade

    Blade "Original Blade"

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    Clarity - Franchise1990. You were spot on with your posts, good stuff.

    Punctuality - SK. What Marquis said.

    Informative - The information angle was very weak from both sides, I felt. But SK was slightly less weak, so he gets the point.

    Emotionality - Franchize1990. SK got a little too bitchy in the Lesnar/Vikings part of the debate, so I can't give him this debate. You should be more manly with your anger!

    Persuasion - I am one of those that felt Brock "sold out", but SK nailed the arguements. He took everything his opponent used and turned it against him. Good stuff.

    SK 3 Franchize1990 2
     
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