Week 2: Little Jerry Lawler -versus- Steamboat Ricky

Discussion in 'Debator's League 2009' started by Mr. TM, Aug 9, 2009.

  1. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    The better asset to the Professional Wrestling World? Ted DiBiase vs Scott Steiner

    Steamboat Ricky is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

    Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.
     
    #1
  2. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    I choose Million Dollar Man.
     
    #2
  3. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    Also: I choose LJL to go first.
     
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  4. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    What do these names have in common: Edge, Booker T, Jeff Hardy? These are all superstars who have been successful as tag team wrestlers and as singles competitors. Scott Steiner falls into this list as well. He was a part of the Steiner Brothers with his brother Rick in which they won tag team titles in the NWA, WCW, and the WWF. Scott has also won a tag team championship in TNA with another great tag team wrestler in Booker T. He is also a world heavyweight champion and holds numerous accomplishments.

    One of the most amazing attributes about Scott Steiner is that he is strong and powerful yet quick and agile. One of his finishing moves was called the Frankensteiner which is a derivation of the Huracanrana. Whenever he does, you think to yourself how somebody that is so big can do something like that with relative else. The most notable guy with these atrributes that has had equal or more success in his career than Steiner is Brock Lesnar. We haven't seen too many of these superstars who have stayed long-term. A wrestler like this would be important because he can work with a variety of opponents: the big and strong from the fast and athletic.

    Another factor that helped in Steiner's favor was that while he was a tag team wrestler, he was being groomed as a singles competitor. The same happened to Bret Hart and when he went solo he was one of the greatest of all time. Scott won world championships because he had what it took to win at the singles level. On the other side of the equation you have Bubba Ray and Devon Dudley who never found success wrestling solo. My belief is if that would have been groomed as singles competitor while they were a tag team then maybe they would have more accolades. Matt Hardy and Christian have had success going solo but not to the degree of Steiner or Hart. It is very hard to go from tag team wrestling to singles wrestling because in tag team wrestling, you know your partner has your back. In singles wrestling, you are there alone and you have to prove yourself so that you can stay at a high level. Bubba Ray and Devon couldn't do this and they went back to tag team wrestling in which they won numerous titles in WWE and TNA.

    Especially in the WWE, when a tag team is around for a while they have a tendency to split them up and test them out solo. London and Kendrick were a good tag team and when they split they just couldn't measure up going solo with the success they had being together. Steiner surpassed this and his brother Rick didn't have the success Scott had much like Jim Neidhart after splitting from Bret Hart. It's just an indicator of some guys having it and some guys don't and Scott is one of those who has.

    Scott Steiner is important to wrestling because he was built as a tag team wrestler yet became successful as a singles wrestler because he worked on it early. Other superstars have been groomed as singles competitors later in their careers and have been unsuccessful. Tag team wrestling isn't what it was twenty years ago so it is vital for a wrestler to have what it takes to be accomplished as a singles wrestler and to stay at that level. Steiner is a example that Edge, Booker, and Jeff have followed to become great tag team and singles champions.
     
    #4
  5. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    LJL,

    I haven't had time to do this today...and I have to work like 11 hours tomorrow...so the earliest I'll be able to get this in is late late tomorrow night. If you want to take off points for being more than 24-hrs...then feel free.
     
    #5
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  6. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    It's alright...I'm real busy during the day so I only have to do this at nights so I won't take off points.
     
    #6
  7. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    When people think of Ted Dibiase...they often think of "MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEY MONEYYYYY...," the Million Dollar Championship, that he was so talented but never won a world title, his signature laugh, or that "everyone has a price."

    These are all very trademark in the career of "The Million Dollar Man" Ted Dibiase. But his impact on the wrestling world is far greater than that of a few catch phrases and a personalized title. His importance to the wrestling industry is multi-faceted, and shall be outlined as such:

    1) Ted Dibiase is the best...and MOST CONSISTENT...cocky heel in the history of the business. Most people would give this acclaim to Ric Flair, which I find to be very, very misplaced. Flair could often, though usually through cheating, beat his opponents on his own accord. With Dibiase, however, I always got the sense that he wasn't able to beat his opponents through his own volition. He had to use others (i.e. Andre the Giant) or use his exorbitant amount of money to get what he wanted. There was something sly and underhanded about his demeanor. With Flair, it was all about having a good time and living it up. With Dibiase...you almost had the impression that he completely worshiped himself. Furthermore, Dibiase was able to play this role throughout his entire career. His character was perfect for the real person, and as a result, he was successful throughout his career and is remembered as one of the greats still today.

    2) Ted Dibiase has had a versatile career in the wrestling business...in the ring, outside the ring, and behind the scenes. Dibiase has main-evented a Wrestlemania, been crowned King of the Ring, has been awarded "Feud of the Year" by Wrestling Observer Newsletter on two different occasions, and is the first (and arguably "only") holder of the WWF North American Heavyweight Championship. This only covers Dibiase's singles accomplishments. Ted also is a three-time WWF World Tag Team Champion with Irwin R. Schyster, having memorable feuds with The Legion of Doom, The Natural Disasters, and The Nasty Boys.

    Despite his wrestling accomplishments, Dibiase went on to be a very successful manager, mentoring the likes of Steve Austin, a phony Undertaker, King Kong Bundy, The Steiner Brothers, and various members of the nWo. After this, he held creative positions with WWE, as well as working as a road agent. His direct contributions to the wrestling business are rather substantial, and thus, he is deserving of his place in the Professional Wrestling Hall of Fame.


    3) Dibiase has had an impactful and meaningful life outside of the world of wrestling.
    What does this have to do with importance to the wrestling world? Generally, this has to be Ted's greatest achievement in terms of positively affecting the industry. Many people get sucked into the world of wrestling and do not find a way out. Wrestling is their entire lives, and like a drug, they become addicted to it and can't find a way out before it kills them. Dibiase, however, was lucky enough to find his way "out." Wrestling was, is, and will always be a major part of Ted Dibiase's life. But the fact that he was able to have a religious experience, find peace with the demons that had plagued him throughout his life, and start a Christian based wrestling promotion provides hope to those currently IN the wrestling business as well as those OUTSIDE the business who would love to wrestle but don't want the life of a wrestler to destroy their personal lives.

    4) Ted Dibiase conceived Ted Dibiase, Jr. Ted has 3 sons, all of whom wrestle, but Ted, Jr. is a bright star in the sky that is the future of professional wrestling. He's in a top stable, currently getting ready to have a premier matchup with two of the greatest superstars to ever lace up a pair of boots at Summerslam. Ted, Jr. is a future star in this business, and if there hadn't been a Ted, Sr., well...there wouldn't be a Ted., Jr.

    Thus, it is very apparent that Ted Dibiase's contributions to the wrestling industry are immense, consisting of in-ring work, out of ring work, personal fulfillments, and genetic reproduction. He may have never won a world championship, but he is definitely in the conversation when speaking of the greatest wrestlers and characters of all-time. Perhaps he may get that world title someday. As we all know, everyone...has a price.
     
    #7
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  8. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    When you think of someone being important in the world wrestling, one of the things you have to look is to see if others have duplicated or even surpassed their success. With Ted DiBiase, you had one superstar to take that moniker and that was JBL. Layfield took what DiBiase did before and ran with it which resulted in nine-month title reign. JBL is arguably the most hated heel this decade and he got about the same amount if not more heat than JBL.

    Steiner was a precursor to Edge, Jeff Hardy, and Booker T in terms of having great singles careers after being in great tag teams. People saw something in Edge and Jeff Hardy that they groomed them for singles competition before they split up and it has worked tremendously. Edge has nine world title reigns and Hardy is currently on his third. There has been more of a lasting impression pertaining Scott Steiner and his career more than Ted DiBiase's.

    DiBiase's acheivements are nothing to sneeze at but I will try to do you one better. Steiner has won tag team titles in the Continental Wrestling Association (CWA), NWA, WCW, NWA Mid-Atlantic, NJPW, Pro Wrestling America (PWA), TNA, World Wrestling Association (WWA), and the WWF. That is nine different companies in which he has won tag team titles. He is also a world heavyweight champion in WCW and three other promotions so his championship book is quite full.

    I can't disagree with this in any way. I admire him for overcoming his demons and leaving a great lasting impression for future generations with his Christian based wrestling school.

    If Ted Jr. becomes a megastar, Ted Sr. may fall into the danger of becoming obsolete. Everybody considers Randy Orton way greater than his father Bob Orton and that is true and not too many people remember Ted Sr.'s accomplishments. Scott Steiner is still wrestling and still winning titles so he is more relevant to today's audience that DiBiase is. As long is there are superstars who continue to be great singles wrestlers as well as tag team wrestlers, people will remember Steiner and he will be more important than DiBiase.
     
    #8
  9. Steamboat Ricky

    Steamboat Ricky WZCW's Living Legend

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    Scott's tag team accomplishments are undeniably superior to Dibiase's. I fully concede this to you.

    Scott Steiner was world champion in a small pond full of extremely green, yet entertaining low-carders and washed up main-eventers (with the exception of Booker). Steiner would have been a mid-carder at best in WWE at that point, and this was evident later when he went to WWE and was just that...a mid-carder.

    Dibiase, on the other hand, was a main-eventer during Hogan/Savage's prime. This was also at a time when Andre the Giant was very high on the card. Steiner was holding the world title when his competition was Booker T, Sid Vicious, Kevin Nash, and Diamond Dallas Page. These opponents are hardly anything to write home about, and in my opinion, being a contender mixed with the likes of Hulk Hogan and Randy Savage in their primes is more significant than being a champ during WCW's last hoorah.

    I'm not too sure about this. I don't recall a lot of mind-blowing athleticism out of any of Steiner's matches. I don't even remember the last time he performed a Frankensteiner. To me, Steiner sacrificed quickness and athleticism for size and power. For awhile and to a certain extent, this was entertaining. But having freaky muscle definition is not what makes wrestling an engaging form of entertainment. We want to see stories develop and characters portrayed. Steiner's character was simply some kind of ticked off thug who defiled women and talked about how big his arms were. This sounds like any number of average American males. However, Dibiase was unique in that not every person had the kind of money that The Million Dollar Man flaunted around. Thus, Dibiase would seemingly leave a more lasting imprint on world of wrestling as he stands apart from others as the original person to play this kind of gimmick, as well as being unique from the regular public. And this made story-telling more intriguing and entertaining.



    Once again, Steiner's major singles successes came at a time when Hogan was gone, Savage was gone, Hart was gone, Sting was out, Flair was a non-wrestler, Goldberg was being buried, etc. Furthermore, Steiner won A World Championship...not more than one. Steiner's successes as a singles competitor are incredibly minuscule in comparison to Bret Hart's...so to say that he "had what it took to be successful in the singles' world" comparatively to Bret is kind of ridiculous.

    The Steiners are so far above London and Kendrick that it isn't even funny. L and K were tag champs when no one cared about tag-team wrestling. The Steiners were many times champion when tag-team wrestling was a MAJOR player in the rundown of the card. For this capacity, Scott should be seen as very important. However, saying that Scott had better success than London and Kendrick did on a singles level doesn't say much at all. Crash Holly had more success than London and Kendrick at the singles level after being a successful tag team wrestler, so how does that make Steiner look good as a singles competitor?



    Scott Steiner is important to wrestling because he was built as a tag team wrestler yet became successful as a singles wrestler because he worked on it early. Other superstars have been groomed as singles competitors later in their careers and have been unsuccessful. Tag team wrestling isn't what it was twenty years ago so it is vital for a wrestler to have what it takes to be accomplished as a singles wrestler and to stay at that level. Steiner is a example that Edge, Booker, and Jeff have followed to become great tag team and singles champions.[/QUOTE]

    A lot of people have gone on to be successful singles wrestlers after being successful tag-team wrestlers. So, how does that make him important? Because he is just like a bunch of other people? Dibiase was able to prolong his career by being a tag-team wrestler and also serving as a manager. Not a whole lot of guys can attest to being good at all three of these things.
     
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  10. Little Jerry Lawler

    Little Jerry Lawler Sigmund Freud On Ritalin And Roids

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    DiBiase may have been a main-eventer during Hogan and Savage's prime but wasn't then when Hogan was about to leave the WWF and Savage was about to retire? The focus was still mainly on them and not on DiBiase but Ted had some great moments and I will give you that much. Sid and Nash were certainly something to write home about. Both former world champions in WWF isn't nothing to sneeze it and that was during DiBiase's time there. Steiner wasn't what he used to be when he came to the WWE so he was what he was supposed to be- a midcarder.

    You may be right in the fact that Steiner won his world title when the main event players were gone. Why couldn't DiBiase win a world title when Hogan and Savage were in their prime. You did say he was a main eventer after all. I was certain he could have gotten at least one. At the end of the day, Steiner still has more world championships than DiBiase.

    Steiner was one of the first to be successful as a singles wrestler after being successful in tag team competition. There have been more successful cases concerning Steiner than there have been DiBiase's. If Edge, Booker T, and Jeff Hardy would have flopped then Steiner would have been forgotten probably like DiBiase if JBL hadn't done what he did. It's not that hard to portray a millionaire who can buy everything he wants at the drop of a hat but it is hard to have what Scott Steiner has and make it work for that long.
     
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  11. Mr. TM

    Mr. TM Throwing a tantrum

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    Well you guys had a lot to say, that was obvious, going all the way up to today.


    Clarity of debate- 1 point
    A few things from each debater made it hard, but nothing big, I think LJL did the better job in presenting his argument.

    Punctuality- 1 point
    Ricky even said he knew he was late here. Hopefully he gets back on track after his move.

    Informative- 1 point
    Ricky gave me a palette of points to judge here, and easily gets this point.

    Emotionality- 1 point
    Emotion could have been easy to draw here, especially for Ricky off of the character of the Million Dollar Man. I just watched the Savage DVD (fell asleep twice during his Hogan Matches), but seeing Dibiase perform really showed me how he was a great character. This is all just worthless information, I know, but it comes down to this. Ricky had the easy chance to get the points here, so I was going to look at LJL and give him the benefit of the doubt, but LJL did nothing for me. Ricky gave me a little, and will get this little point from me.

    Persuasion- 1 point
    I think I have hyped up Scott Steiner a lot in my own mind. But when comparing these two arguments versus the two completely different wrestlers, I think Ricky did the better job in getting me to forget Steiner's probably overrated singles career, and think that he was little more than a tag wrestler. Ricky gets this point.

    TM rates this 4 points Ricky to 1 points Little Jerry Lawler.
     
    #11
  12. Cena's Little Helper

    Cena's Little Helper Mid-Card Championship Winner

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    Clarity Of Debate: Your argument was very easy to map out, Steamboat Ricky. The same goes for you, Little Jerry Lawler, and Steamboat Ricky only marginally beats you because he put his main points in bold.

    Point: Steamboat Ricky

    Punctuality: Read what TM said above.

    Point: Little Jerry Lawler

    Informative: Both of you brought in a great deal of information, and it was all relevant to the points you were trying to make. I'll give the point to Steamboar Ricky, although this was an extremely tough decision.

    Point: Steamboat Ricky

    Emotionality: Little Jerry Lawler, I was floored by your performance here. You vastly stepped up your game from last week. And, even though you were given the tougher of the two men to argue for, you came up with an extremely credible argument that made me want to rethink Steiner's contributions to professional wrestling.

    Point: Little Jerry Lawler

    Persuasion: Little Jerry Lawler, you rebuttals were awesome. They were respectful, objective, and well-reasoned. Steamboat Ricky, I can't fault you for anything here, man, and I almost feel bad for giving Little Jerry Lawler the win. Think of it as Little Jerry Lawler winning and not you losing.

    Point: Little Jerry Lawler

    tdigle's Score
    Little Jerry Lawler: 3
    Steamboat Ricky: 2
     
    #12
  13. Marquis

    Marquis Registered User

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    Clarity of debate- Ricky
    Both were spaced nicely from point to point, but Ricky's came off more clear and easier to read cause of bolding.

    Punctuality- LJL
    Ricky said he was late, so the point goes to LJL.

    Informative- Ricky
    Ricky brought the more detailed information on Dibiase's history, and also brought up some good information to discredit Steiner.

    Emotionality- Ricky
    I didn't feel much emotion from LJL, I just felt he was stating some facts and his opinion. While Ricky showed emotion by explaining how he actually bought into the Million Dollar Man character, and he also came off more aggressive.

    Persuasion- Ricky
    Ricky did a good job of downplaying Scott's single career, and also mentioned what DiBiase did outside of wrestling to help wrestling. So I was persuaded towards Ricky's side.

    Ricky- 4 points
    LJL- 1 point
     
    #13
  14. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity: I feel that both presented good clear arguments, but Ricky's was better presented.

    Point: Steamboat Ricky

    Punctuality: Ricky said he was going to be late, have to go with LJL.

    Point: Little Jerry Lawler

    Informative: Ricky came with more information to put Dibiase over Steiner in terms of who is the bigger asset.

    Point: Steamboat Ricky

    Emotionality: Ricky had the task of going after Dibiase, which seemed like the easier subject to debate for, but LJL just didn't seem like he believed it to me.

    Point: Steamboat Ricky

    Persuasion: Ricky did a very good job telling how Ted has been able to get away from wrestling, and not making it an addiction in his life, I think that adds as a factor that was able to get out, and do something outside of the WWE, compared to Steiner still going today, but having a rather lackluster singles career.

    Point: Steamboat Ricky

    CH David scores this Steamboat Ricky 4, Little jerry Lawler 1.
     
    #14
  15. Blade

    Blade "Original Blade"

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    Clarity: Ricky gest this one. The arguments he presented all made perfect sense and were hard to dispute

    Punctuality: LJL. Same reason as the others have previously stated.

    Informative: LJL. He had alot more knowledge of Steiner's career and accomplishments, including all the various championships he'd won as a singles wrestler and as a tag team.

    Emotionality: I think Ricky definately put alot more into this one. He used the emotion to put across his arguments with such conviction that it'd be hard not to go with Ricky here.

    Persuasion: Ricky. Simply put, he made the best points and the best counter arguments. And I thought the Ted Dibiase Jr. argument was brilliant on Ricky's behalf and was really thinking outside the box.

    Steamboat Ricky 3 Little Jerry Lawler 2
     
    #15

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