Week 4: Phoenix -versus- Little Jerry Lawler

Mr. TM

Throwing a tantrum
The better governor: Jesse Ventura or Arnold Swartzenegger?

Little Jerry Lawler is the home debater, he gets to choose which side of the debate he is on first, but he has 24 hours.

Remember to read the rules. This thread is only for the debaters.

This round ends +2 hours after Friday 1:00 pm Pacific
 
Thank you Mr. Lawler, the same to you too.

When looking at the political careers of Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenegger, naturally the first difference to point out about changes in time and the different states they were in charge of. Both were the 38th Governor(s) to run control of Minnesota (Ventura) and Calfiornia (Schwarnengger), while Ventura's term ran from 1998 to 2002, Arnold's ran from 2003 to today on his second term.

Now for Ventura, he was fighting a time when the likes of Gay Rights were still a controversial debate, he fougth and supported for them nonetheless, he fought to have a mass transit improvements going through the state and he fought for tax refund to residents of Minnesota, to name a few. In comparsion, Arnie (cause it's easier than typing Schwarzenegger) has been fighting for a world of today, aiming to reduce carbon emissions, he fought against Propisition 66 to amend the Three Strikes law which to his words, if approved would have "released 26,000 dangerous criminals and rapists" and even fought to repeal the unpopular 200% increase in vehicle license fees undertaken to fund the state's budget.

When it comes the matter about these two governors, when they first ran, Ventura was taken as a joke given he was a former Navy SEAL and pro wrestler, but Arnie's run was a global phoenomon because of his popularity from the films he was in to the links he had politically with the Kennedys.

In their roles, they have both fought for a world of today, Ventura was fighting to bring Minnesota to where it is today, Arnie has fought to get California to where it is and is still pushing to the point of preparing its state's future.

In the public light, Ventura has been the more controversial of the two, on at least three occasions, he was made to retrack personal statements he made publicly about certain people and even the cities of which he represented. Arnie has maintained a decent public profile where he had two controversial calls regarding the death penalty and describing the hotness of a Cuban woman, he's still a popular figure in his political career, his re-run generated a better percent of votes than when he first ran and he's won both of his elections by a million voters.

Where Ventura stepped down because of the media involvement with his personal life, Arnie remains unaffected and is even said to be running for senate in 2010, it's not confirmed but it shows how much of a respected and better govenor he is by the matter he is going for a higher position and hasn't been swayed or felt the need to step down.

As an opening to this debate, I support that Arnold is the better governor because he has continued to better the state of California. His campaigns and decisions have been successful and he's still running in office today, compared to Ventura who has done only one term, whilst doing enough during it, he was still a controversial figure for his open comments and because of his background on top of that.

Mr. Lawler, you may take the stand.
 
Religion is a topic that has been strongly discussed throughout these forums and in other venues as well. What most people have against other religions is that the supporters try to cram their views down people's throats and can lead to hostility. Jesse Ventura endorsed equal rights for religious minorities and those who don't believe in God with his proclamation on Indivisible Day which he declared on July 4, 2002.

Ventura also cares about patroitism. For one, I didn't like saying The Pledge of Allegiance every day when I was in high school. Some people might construe that as unpatriotic but I know where my loyalties lie. He vetoed a bill requiring recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance by saying that patriotism is voluntary and that a patriot shows their patriotism through actions and not by choice. He realized that we can't force anybody to be loyal to our country. It's up to that person whether he or she wants to be with America or against it.


We look at Arnold Schwarzenegger and people began to oppose him from day one when he prevented driver's license from being distributed to illegal immigrants. He also came under backlash when he appointed Democrat Susan Kennedy as his Chief of Staff. He has been accused of becoming towards the center in terms of the political spectrum. Ventura to my knowledge hasn't been questioned about his politics to the extent that Schwarzenegger has.

There will be more to come Phoenix.
 
We look at Arnold Schwarzenegger and people began to oppose him from day one when he prevented driver's license from being distributed to illegal immigrants. He also came under backlash when he appointed Democrat Susan Kennedy as his Chief of Staff. He has been accused of becoming towards the center in terms of the political spectrum. Ventura to my knowledge hasn't been questioned about his politics to the extent that Schwarzenegger has.

Naturally, Arnold would face opposing given he's a dual citizen and coming in from originally being a native Austrian. But is the matter that he stopped illegal immigrants from getting instant driver's license a bad thing? I think when it comes to the right to drive, you should be registered to a location to be able to drive. If illegal immigrants want to drive, they should learn in their own country or be registered as a citizen to be able to drive. Where America might be a country that is welcoming to immigration, there should be some control and I think Arnold was big enough to make that move because he knows immigration can get out of hang. Sure it will be questioned, be he did something that no-one did before him, something new will always get opposition.

Ventura's first action when he became governor was choosing not to live in the governor's mansion, he chose to shut it down and stay at his home in Maple Grove. And rightfully it came under heavy criticism because he made several working-class people become jobless and it cost more to re-open it. Where Arnold was opposed to making a choice on controlling immigration through the driver's license, Ventura already cost jobs and money for his personal taste in accomodation!

One of Arnold's biggest accomplishments was overturning, in just one week, the views of voting on Proposition 66. This was amending the California's three strike ruling, this would have been where the third felony would need to be either violent or serious in order to mandate a 25-years-to-life sentence.

Prior to Arnold's involvement, likely voters interviewed in the first four days favored the proposition 58% to 34%, after he became involved and his ads came out it changed to 48% to 47% (The samples had a margin of error of plus or minus 4%). This is how influential he became, he managed to make those settled on yes, change to no and the proposition failed to pass. Because of this, a recent paper in 2007 saw a drop in crime in California, it shows how successful Arnie's campaigning against that proposition was effective in the long run.

The more I keep reading on Ventura's run as a governor, it's more about the controversy and his "offhand" comments like calling the media "jackals", preferring Minneapolis to St Pauls because the latter "was built by drunken Irishmen". While I feel his support for gay rights, voluntary patriotism and improving the transport system of Minesota is great and I feel that should be credited, this seems to come listed after his controversy. I know it's part of a media influence with the internet, but evem today, out of office, he will continue to speak his mind. Whilst I feel he is exercising his right to free speech, when you're part of the system, you should work with it, Ventura didn't seem to do it with his open mind and was made to retract statements or apologise for them on a frequent basis, I think to this day, Arnold has only been made to correct one offhand comment he made.

In short, where Arnold has been questioned, it was more down to him making a decision and changing the direction of something norm, he makes changes and uses his power to benefit the state he represents, what I've been reading aside from what has been mentioned, Ventura seems to have his political career tarnished through his personal views and opinions. While he may have been a good and benefical governor for Minesota, he remained controversial compared to Arnold who made get opposed, but still gets the job done in a more professional manner.
 
Arnold Schwarzenegger doesn't come without a bit of controversy himself. He was accused of sexual misconduct from many woman during his initial campaign as governor. Sure that he said that he behaved badly sometimes and that most of what you see in the stories aren't true. However, that seed will be planted in most of his citizens' brains that if he did it before then he will do it again especially since he is still in office and Ventura is not.

Ventura suggested that he might resign early to allow Lieutenant Governor Mae Schunk the opportunity to run for governor. He received criticism over this and he said he was merely throwing it out there. I believe this would have been a great idea because it would have shown that Ventura cared about equality in the workplace and would have scored big points with the feminist group. Most of his critics would have wondered if she was capable of being governor but she was elected lieutenant governor so clearly she has a lot of political knowledge.

Ventura has also supported use of medicinal marijuana and advocated higher roles for third parties in national politics. It's hard for a candidate to get a fair shake if he isn't a Democrat or a Republican and being aligned with the Reform Party and later the Independence Party, he understood what they have to go through and tried to equalify the political race for all candidates regardless of political affiliation.

While Ventura may have been more questioned for the things he said, I believe he has done more to appeal to more demographics than Schwarzenegger. Arnold his done good for California but I think Ventura has done more to please more people and will have a longer lasting effect.
 
Arnold Schwarzenegger doesn't come without a bit of controversy himself. He was accused of sexual misconduct from many woman during his initial campaign as governor. Sure that he said that he behaved badly sometimes and that most of what you see in the stories aren't true. However, that seed will be planted in most of his citizens' brains that if he did it before then he will do it again especially since he is still in office and Ventura is not.

Indeed that Arnold came through controversy, but yet you said "many women" accused of him sexual misconduct. Yet it was never proven, it would be easy to make a claim against someone who is famous making a run, much like Ventura was criticised and mocked for his background from being a SEAL and a wrestler prior to his election. After Arnold was elected, he voluntarily attended a training course conducted by the state Attorney General's office on preventing sexual harassment (along with several members of his senior staff), so where this criticism and claims of sexual harrassment came, he combatted this to prove he is not what random people claimed he was or had done. If Arnold was strongly linked to these allegations, we wouldn't be seeing a support in people wanting him to run for Senate and people are even going outrageous to the point of wanting to him to be President, despite ineligible to run for obvious reasons.

Ventura has also supported use of medicinal marijuana and advocated higher roles for third parties in national politics. It's hard for a candidate to get a fair shake if he isn't a Democrat or a Republican and being aligned with the Reform Party and later the Independence Party, he understood what they have to go through and tried to equalify the political race for all candidates regardless of political affiliation.

While Ventura may have been more questioned for the things he said, I believe he has done more to appeal to more demographics than Schwarzenegger. Arnold his done good for California but I think Ventura has done more to please more people and will have a longer lasting effect.

I don't think Ventura has helped to please more people though, yes while Arnold has done some big changes that people opposed, has there been any actions to overturn his decision on the driver's licenses for illegal immigrants? None that I know of, if they felt he was a bad governor, he wouldn't have won his second term by a million votes, even when the support for Republicans had greatly dropped in 2006, he was the one that managed to pull through and get those votes. That was a sign that it wasn't a vote against Bush, but a vote for a strong Governor.

Where Venutra supported gay rights, Arnold overturned Mayor Gavin Newsom's plan to change the rights to same-sex marriage, he's managed to offer clemency on the death penalty more than his predecessor did on the basis of proven innocence. The Cato Institute, rated him 1st in their 2004 fiscal policy report card of the tax and spending policies of the nation's governors, when taxes are always a controversy regarding governors and mayors. This year he announced the launch of the Allied Health Initiative which is providing health needs to those in critical needs.

Despite issues with the recession affecting the World in the past year, Arnold has been doing his best to combat the recession, much like most governments, and while the people of California are not being easy with assisting the cause of getting California out, Arnold still refuses to give in. He's trying with every possible way of saving the state money, given this is the USA's biggest state, he appears to be doing as best as anyone can to combat the recession and is starting to turn things around at least. Yes, they stopped him from increasing tax to combat it, but he's trying to combat it without that option now and the other methods may take time, but it's looking upward at least where California can get out of the recession without having the tax payer's money being the reason for it.

In a time where things suck for everyone, Arnold has not laid back and accepted it, he's continuing to fight each and every day. I don't know how Ventura would have combatted it if he was in office today, but I they both would be strong fighters in this tough time.
 
Summation
Sure Jesse Ventura doesn't come without a little bit of controversy, but what famous politicans aren't? He wanted to give money back to the American people when the state had a budget surplus. What American doesn't like free money being given back to them?

He supported property tax reform, abortion rights, and gay rights. He said that he would have gladly served alongside homosexuals when he was a NAVY seal. He sought equality for religious minorities and those who didn't believe in God. Ventura also advocated for third parties to have higher roles in national politics. Being an Independent himself, he knew how hard it was for third parties to get a fair shake and he worked to change that.

All in all, Ventura has appealed to more demographics and classes of society than Schwarzenegger has. Ventura has dealt with more of the issues that America has been concerned with and I believe has made more significant change. Ventura was the better governor.
 
Closing statement

While it is true that Jesse Ventura has served his state of Minnesota well, Arnold Schwarzenegger, much like Ventura, has come from an outside world to fill up the governor's seat and has been successful to the point of being in his second term as Governor of California.

Arnold Schwarzenegger has done enough to benefit the state he's represented, he may have controversially stopped illegal immigrants from obtaining a driver's license but it's a motion that that supports the way of citizenship, that your license should represent the nationality you're registered or born in. Much like Ventura, he did support gay marriage but while same-sex marriage was only legalised within the past 2 years, he was trying to remain a people pleaser because of Proposition 22 that went into affect before he took the role of Governor. He also prevented a change in a working system of conviction which in the long term affect has seen a drop in crime in California, showing that his decisions have worked and benefitted California.

He still continues to fight for the future of California, especially during a hard time of rebuilding the state from the recession, it has been a hard task, but he's doing it without forcing tax increase. This is why I believe Arnold Schwarzenegger is the better governer, while both have had controversy in their terms, Venutra's controversy came from being an individual working, thinking and speaking outside of the system, a system that Schwarzenegger respects and uses to benefit the people he represents.
 
Clarity Of Argument: Both of you have been professional in organizing your debates. You both did great, and like I said, the judges love to read a well written debate. But in the end, I think that Phoenix did the better job here.


Punctuality: LJL was a little late in getting his last one in, so I have to give it to phoenix here.


Informative: This was a punching contest of information. Phoenix did it best however, though I am not an expert on the subject, I think Arnold had more information on him.


Emotionality: I believe Phoenix is a Brit? Sorry if I am mistaken, so maybe this effected his point on a debate on two Americans. LJL came in here with more emotion and gets this debate point.

Persuasion: Phoenix really gave me, a pretty nonpartisan view on the debate the biggest sway, and almost made me feel like it was my choice from the beginning.

TM rates this Phoenix 4, LJL 1.
 
Clarity: Both were great and very clear. I can't really give full credit to one and not the other.

Point: Split

Punctuality: LJL late on his last post.

Point: Phoenix

Informative: Very good information from both of you. However, and this isn't to slight LJL, Phoenix being from across the pond, and not really knowing the politics until he looked them up, impressed me quite a bit.

Point: Phoenix

Emotionality: What TM said.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Persuasion: Phoenix had the tougher task, being not from America himself, he showed me his ability to research was top notch. He persuaded me Arnold has done a better job. Plus he showed that Arnold is into his second term.

Point: Phoenix

CH David scores this Phoenix 3.5, Little Jerry Lawler 1.5
 
Clarity: I am gonna cheat and split the point, the guy above me did

Point: Split

Punctuality: Pheonix, his names like bold and stuff

Point: Phoenix

Informative: Tough, both had lots of info that I didnt know, if only I cared about politics. Split

Point: Split

Emotionality: What CH David said

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Persuasion: Phoenix points were more agreeable, and I didnt know or care about the subject

Point: Phoenix

I score this round;
Pheonix - 3
Little Jerry Lawler - 2
 
Clarity Of Debate - Both opening arguments were very clear. Little Jerry Lawler was a bit more concise though, so he gets the point here.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Punctuality - Read what everyone else has said so far.

Point: Phoenix

Informative - Not being a US citizen helped you out greatly here, Phoenix. It looks like you were cautious and made sure to do your research before replying. Good job.

Point: Phoenix

Emotionality - You really like Ventura, Little Jerry Lawler? That's the impression I got from this debate.

Point: Little Jerry Lawler

Persuasion - Little Jerry Lawler, your presentation could have been a little more balanced. As governor of Minnesota, Ventura did a few questionable things. I would have like it if you would have addressed these and explained to us how his strengths outweighed his shortcomings. Phoenix, good job here. You had no choice but to be objective, and it did wonders for you.

Point: Phoenix

tdigle's Score

Phoenix - 3
Little Jerry Lawler - 2
 

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