WCW Region, Third Round, Last Man Standing Match:(1) Steve Austin vs. (8) Verne Gagne

[klunderbunker]

This is a third round match in the WCW Region. It is a Last Man Standing match, held at Phillips Arena in Atlanta, Georgia.

Rules: Anything goes in this match which only ends when one man can't answer a ten count.

#1. Steve Austin

Vs.

#8. Verne Gagne

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[Bernkastel]

Back into serious mode...

Austin is overrated. There I said it. For all of his drawing power [which let's be honest was mostly marketability] he lacks the longevity and consistency of most other big era stars. Gagne included. Gagne at one point in time was pro wrestling biggest star. He had even surpassed Lou Thesz. Austin's career was shadowed in controversy where he was not given chances until he finally found something that worked. And he just so happened to be in the right place and time to become a megastar. That describes Verne Gagne as well. With Dick Hutton not working as NWA champion, Verne saw a hole in the industry that needed to be filled and he filled it. He created the AWA and it lasted for over 20 years, surviving on his star power. That's how popular Verne Gagne was.

We rant and rave about how Austin saved the WWE and won the Monday Night Wars [which he pretty much did] but Gagne did something just as remarkable. HE CREATED A NEW PROMOTION THAT CHALLENGED THE GREATEST PROMOTION OF ALL TIME. He created a title belt that would be seen on the same level as the NWA title. The biggest stars of the time wanted to work in the AWA. The difference between Austin and Gagne is that Gagne was a big, popular star for a much, much longer period of time. Austin sold out venues and broke records for about 3 years. Gagne was a sold out venues and broke records for about 30. The only thing that you could possibly say that Austin had over Gagne was his marketability.

You could reason that Verne would have been just as popular as Austin if he had a tee shirt with a cool skull on it, and a multi-million promotional machine backing him. Just like you could reason that Austin would have drawn the big gates without those things, because the fact is he was that good. But could Austin have drawn those big gates in Gagne's era for as long as Verne did? I don't think he could. Austin left the WWE in 2002, and the company was already starting to lose money. If Austin had stayed healthy and continued to wrestle would the WWE have continued to grow like they had been in 1997? I doubt it. Rock couldn't make a difference and neither could HHH. And I bet it was complacency in one product that caused the industry to suffer after 2001. Gagne didn't have that problem. He had stiff competition in the NWA and the WWE. So if you'd like to give Austin the point in drawing power, know that his longevity on top probably would not have lasted. Gagne's did. He has a level of longevity and consistency that Austin could not begin to touch. Which made it more viable when as a top star Gagne did not lose often. He spent 7 years as the king [or one of the kings] of the mountain. And that was just one of his title reigns. Where he put the belt on himself so many times because he knew he could still draw the big gates better than anyone else. Austin traded the belt constantly and even lost to a rookie Kane at the height of his popularity.

So in this match if I take Austin in his prime and Gagne in his, why should I think that Austin would win? Austin was more marketable, but I'd still draw big houses with Gagne anyway. Especially next round. And Austin lost in his prime in ways that Gagne did not, so based on his track record Austin has a much higher chance of being asked to do a job.

Austin has won this tournament 3 times already. Gagne usually goes out to someone shit or he gets underestimated. Both of these guys were top 10 of all time names. It's not a crime to see Austin kick the bucket early against someone like Verne Gagne. And in a last man standing match, where Gagne has proven his worth against a vast variety of opponents, he'd keep Austin grounded to the point where the action would not leave the ring. No chair shots, no using the ring as a weapon, no fighting in the audience, just a straight beat down where the grappler takes the brawler to school. See Kurt Angle vs Austin... yeah that would be this match.

Vote Verne Gagne.

 

[Milkyway!]

Austin isn't even my top 10 best professional wrestlers of all time. Verne Gagne is.

The Attitude era was great during it's time, but let's be honest in the end the Attitude era was one of the worst things to ever happen to the WWE. Was it necessary at the time? Yes! They had to do something to beat WcW in the ratings and not go under. However, the long term damage the Attitude era had greatly outweighed the positive effects the 3 years Austin had during the Attitude Era.

Verne Gagne on the other hand very well could be on the Mount Rushmore of all time great wrestling figures. A man who revolutionized the business for the better. Not worse (like Austin). He's one of the all time greats, and vastly underrated in the internet wrestling community. You hear names like Ric Flair, Harly Race, Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, The Undertaker, and many more before you hear the mention of Verne Gagne and that simply isn't the case. Gagne was great. He was a draw, he was a mainstay, he was a juggernaut, and I've found that while I'm not a huge fan of the wrestling style back then I can watch a Verne Gagne match 10x times before I can sit through a single Stone Cold Steve Austin match.

Austin is more like Two-Face. He saved the WWE, but he lived long enough to see himself become the villain. Gagne on the other hand is much like Superman. Still shining his bright light over the wrestling world as the man people want to be.

Vote: Gagne. Because no one likes Two-Face.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Verne Gagne was miffed by the NWA not making him champion over Thesz and thus went back home (where he was popular) and started AWA that pushed him (and fruitlessly his son) to the moon. If Gagne is to be believed Thesz dodged him, if Thesz is to be lieved, its because NWA weren't ready to move on from Lou as champion. Gagne made his own promotion and promoted himself.

Austin was constantly roadblocked in WCW and when he wasn't he was having barnstormers with Steamboat or Pillman or the likes. Got released and found his magic on the stick in ECW. Came into WWF as a utility man as The Ringmaster and was not even gonna win KOR if H hadn't partaken in the curtain call. Austin 3:16 happens and he starts burning, then wrestles Hart in a classic at SSeries and Mania; then breaks his neck. But he makes those cameos and outta nowhere runins (what would become his signature later on) and wins over the crowd and started getting red hot. Austin turned the machine from Shawn to himself by working his butt off on the mic and in the ring. He had to adopt the brawler style after his injury AND to fit his persona. No use doing a head scissors if you play a badass redneck.

Austin deserves all the plaudits because here is a man who made it despite a lot. He didn't save money like a miser and open the Texas Wrasslin'Federation in Victoria, Texas and get himself splendidly over by booking himself as THE hero.

Its Austin

 

[Bernkastel]

Verne Gagne was miffed by the NWA not making him champion over Thesz and thus went back home (where he was popular)

He was popular all over the Midwest and the Northeast. At his peak he was more popular than Thesz or Rocca in those areas. he set records in the Northeast that stood since Jim Londos. WWE and Austin can thank Gagne for being popular enough to jump start business in the area again.

and started AWA that pushed him (and fruitlessly his son) to the moon. If Gagne is to be believed Thesz dodged him, if Thesz is to be lieved, its because NWA weren't ready to move on from Lou as champion. Gagne made his own promotion and promoted himself.

And he was very successful at promoting himself, because HE WAS SO FUCKING POPULAR AND BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. Seriously, if it's a mark against Gagne because he promoted and politicked himself then HHH goes out against Daniel Bryan no contest.

Austin was constantly roadblocked in WCW and when he wasn't he was having barnstormers with Steamboat or Pillman or the likes. Got released and found his magic on the stick in ECW.

Yeah, and Gagne was fucked over by the NWA due to politics. No point for Austin there.

Came into WWF as a utility man as The Ringmaster and was not even gonna win KOR if H hadn't partaken in the curtain call. Austin 3:16 happens and he starts burning, then wrestles Hart in a classic at SSeries and Mania; then breaks his neck. But he makes those cameos and outta nowhere runins (what would become his signature later on) and wins over the crowd and started getting red hot. Austin turned the machine from Shawn to himself by working his butt off on the mic and in the ring. He had to adopt the brawler style after his injury AND to fit his persona. No use doing a head scissors if you play a badass redneck.

Austin was in the right place at the right time in wrestling history to be a big star. And while you could say the exact same thing about Gagne, Verne did it better and for much longer. And without the marketability and massive promotional machine.

Austin deserves all the plaudits because here is a man who made it despite a lot. He didn't save money like a miser and open the Texas Wrasslin'Federation in Victoria, Texas and get himself splendidly over by booking himself as THE hero.

Already been over this. Gagne booked himself as the hero because he was popular and it worked. If it didn't he wouldn't have been world champion 10 times, for a combined 12 years, with his promotion saying in business for 20 with him constantly on top. Seriously piss poor argument.

Both Austin and Gagne were misused so they went somewhere and found success, except Gagne's success lasted much longer and he contributed far more to the industry than Austin did. Austin succeeded in giving the WWE a monopoly. Gagne succeeded in giving fans a major alternative to the NWA or WWE. Austin was asked to job the title belt to a green Kane at the height of his popularity, and was later asked to job to a rookie Lesnar with no buildup. Because that's what the WWE later though of Austin, as fodder for rookies. So he got mad and took his ball and went home. Gagne was world champion and basically untouchable for 7 years. Because he was that damn good.

Verne Gange wins. He would take Austin to school like Kurt Angle did. KO his ass like Bret Hart did. And keep him down for the 10 count.

 

[GI Cake]

I literally don't know shit about Verne, but I know Steve Austin likes to hit people in the face with quite literally whatever he can grab. Besides, I like Austin a lot so I'm just going to vote for him.

 

[Lowdown]

I've never seen Gagne wrestle, but I've read and heard that he was one of the best in ring. But I know he's very old school, and a die-hard traditionalist. I have no doubt that he could hold his own, but while Austin's career isn't as long as Gagne's, he's more of a brawler and could probably dish or his share of punishment. I'm going with Stone Cold in this brawl.

 

[Bernkastel]

The one positive that Austin has over Gagne is his marketability. Austin was WWE's top draw for about 2 years. And sure he smashed records, but allot of that had to do with his marketing and the massive promotional machine behind him. When it came to putting asses in seats Gagne did it better because he did it for much longer. If you were to take Austin's 2 years on top [1997 - 1999] the amount of people that paid to see Austin wrestle would be dwarfed by the amount of people that paid to see Gagne wrestle over the course of his different times on top. Comparable big stars like Whipper Billy Watson drew upwards of 5 million during his primes. That's more than twice the amount of people that have ever paid to see a live Wrestlemania. So that puts into perspective how big a star Gagne actually was when you look at the growth of the AWA. It's not like Austin was insurmountably better.

As far as the match I find it hard to believe that Austin will be able to deal much punishment when he's being choked the fuck out. Gagne wouldn't take kindly to being punched in the face a bunch of times. If the WWE were willing to have their big star Austin job to a very green Brock Lesnar with no buildup or blowoff [he did a job to a rookie Kane at the height of his run,] then there's good odds that Austin would be asked to job to a prime Verne Gagne. More than Verne being asked to do the same favor for Austin.

So I'm voting Verne due to his longevity, consistency, and his overall legacy and contributions to the industry.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

He was popular all over the Midwest and the Northeast. At his peak he was more popular than Thesz or Rocca in those areas. he set records in the Northeast that stood since Jim Londos. WWE and Austin can thank Gagne for being popular enough to jump start business in the area again.
And he was very successful at promoting himself, because HE WAS SO FUCKING POPULAR AND BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE. Seriously, if it's a mark against Gagne because he promoted and politicked himself then HHH goes out against Daniel Bryan no contest.
Yeah, and Gagne was fucked over by the NWA due to politics. No point for Austin there.
Austin was in the right place at the right time in wrestling history to be a big star. And while you could say the exact same thing about Gagne, Verne did it better and for much longer. And without the marketability and massive promotional machine.
Already been over this. Gagne booked himself as the hero because he was popular and it worked. If it didn't he wouldn't have been world champion 10 times, for a combined 12 years, with his promotion saying in business for 20 with him constantly on top. Seriously piss poor argument.
Both Austin and Gagne were misused so they went somewhere and found success, except Gagne's success lasted much longer and he contributed far more to the industry than Austin did. Austin succeeded in giving the WWE a monopoly. Gagne succeeded in giving fans a major alternative to the NWA or WWE. Austin was asked to job the title belt to a green Kane at the height of his popularity, and was later asked to job to a rookie Lesnar with no buildup. Because that's what the WWE later though of Austin, as fodder for rookies. So he got mad and took his ball and went home. Gagne was world champion and basically untouchable for 7 years. Because he was that damn good.

Verne Gange wins. He would take Austin to school like Kurt Angle did. KO his ass like Bret Hart did. And keep him down for the 10 count.

Ok I think its still early for me to go line by line and dissect and honestly, Austin will win this but people really should realize why:

Gagne was not a good draw in the Northeast first of all, Rocca was. The early WWWF which was started 4 years after the AWA was formed (?) featured Rocca heavily on the card.

With the AWA, being the Minnesota boy he was clearly beloved and again it is like if Austin had blown up and stayed in a territory of Texas, except he went nation and then world wide.

Here is the deal, Austin will have a bigger legacy NOT because the machine got behind him, but that he MADE the machine get behind him. No way was he anointed.

Gagne was a territorial draw and stayed on top because that was the era of territorial stars staying on top to protect their championship and because they drew AND because ego. If this was Lawler Vs Gagne this would be close.

What I want people to get is what Austin was; he was a brilliant worker in WCW, a compelling promo in ECW and when he got in the WWF he was saddled with a shit faced gimmick. But he turned it all around despite having a neck injury. The pops that man got, the merch he sold, the more live event tickets than anyone else hell Im beginning to sound like JR here bah gawd in my praise for the man.


Vote Austin, and dont fucking be ashamed that he has won this 3 times. He deserves to and should in the future as well.

 

[Bernkastel]

Ok I think its still early for me to go line by line and dissect and honestly, Austin will win this but people really should realize why:

Nah, this match would be close. And hopefully Gagne will finally stop being underestimated.

Gagne was not a good draw in the Northeast first of all, Rocca was. The early WWWF which was started 4 years after the AWA was formed (?) featured Rocca heavily on the card.

Wrong. Rocca was a more prominent figure in the city due to his longevity there. But Gagne headlined MSG five times in a row during the 50's. He was considered to be a bigger draw in the city than Thesz was at that time.

With the AWA, being the Minnesota boy he was clearly beloved and again it is like if Austin had blown up and stayed in a territory of Texas, except he went nation and then world wide.

He went national because the platform that Gagne had a hand in creating was there for Austin to go national in the first place. And world wide? WWE did not have the global presence 20 years ago that they have today. They were still very much a national promotion. RAW wasn't featured in 70 countries like today. And Austin rarely left the States during his prime.

Here is the deal, Austin will have a bigger legacy NOT because the machine got behind him, but that he MADE the machine get behind him. No way was he anointed.

Wrong. He WAS anointed. WWE saw something in him and they ran with it. VKM even created the perfect foil for Austin. If anything you're describing Gagne's rise to the top. Gagne was given a non sanctioned United States title and he elevated that championship to the point where it was seen as second only to the NWA strap in the eyes of the fans. He made the NWA board notice him the same way Austin made the WWE brass notice him. The difference is that Gagne was shafted when fans and wrestling journalists knew he was the right man to succeed Thesz. When Austin hit his stride nothing deterred him. Gagne went on to be a huge national success despite being shafted by the NWA.

Gagne was a territorial draw and stayed on top because that was the era of territorial stars staying on top to protect their championship and because they drew AND because ego. If this was Lawler Vs Gagne this would be close.

Wrong. Gagne was an internationally known superstar that everyone in the States and Canada knew. That was a major reason why AWA grew so fast and remained lucrative for so long. It was well above the level of Dick the Brusier's, Sheik's, or Lawler's territories. Even the WWE during that time period was not as successful as the AWA.

What I want people to get is what Austin was; he was a brilliant worker in WCW, a compelling promo in ECW and when he got in the WWF he was saddled with a shit faced gimmick. But he turned it all around despite having a neck injury. The pops that man got, the merch he sold, the more live event tickets than anyone else hell Im beginning to sound like JR here bah gawd in my praise for the man.

And Gagne wasn't a brilliant worker? Was he not charismatic? Did the fans not flock in droves to see him wrestle for decades? Austin may have been given a shit gimmick, but he eventually shined through because he was that good. But Gagne was shafted by politics when everyone in the country knew he should have been NWA champion. Instead he went on to forge an entirely different promotion, made himself champion, and elevated it to the same level as the title that he never got to hold.

The only point Austin has over Gagne is his marketability. In every other category Verne was just as good if not better.

Vote Austin, and dont fucking be ashamed that he has won this 3 times. He deserves to and should in the future as well.

Or we could be objective and consider Verne Gagne. Like Austin he was an all time great, and is just as deserving as winning this tournament.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Nah, this match would be close. And hopefully Gagne will finally stop being underestimated.



Wrong. Rocca was a more prominent figure in the city due to his longevity there. But Gagne headlined MSG five times in a row during the 50's. He was considered to be a bigger draw in the city than Thesz was at that time.



He went national because the platform that Gagne had a hand in creating was there for Austin to go national in the first place. And world wide? WWE did not have the global presence 20 years ago that they have today. They were still very much a national promotion. RAW wasn't featured in 70 countries like today. And Austin rarely left the States during his prime.



Wrong. He WAS anointed. WWE saw something in him and they ran with it. VKM even created the perfect foil for Austin. If anything you're describing Gagne's rise to the top. Gagne was given a non sanctioned United States title and he elevated that championship to the point where it was seen as second only to the NWA strap in the eyes of the fans. He made the NWA board notice him the same way Austin made the WWE brass notice him. The difference is that Gagne was shafted when fans and wrestling journalists knew he was the right man to succeed Thesz. When Austin hit his stride nothing deterred him. Gagne went on to be a huge national success despite being shafted by the NWA.



Wrong. Gagne was an internationally known superstar that everyone in the States and Canada knew. That was a major reason why AWA grew so fast and remained lucrative for so long. It was well above the level of Dick the Brusier's, Sheik's, or Lawler's territories. Even the WWE during that time period was not as successful as the AWA.



And Gagne wasn't a brilliant worker? Was he not charismatic? Did the fans not flock in droves to see him wrestle for decades? Austin may have been given a shit gimmick, but he eventually shined through because he was that good. But Gagne was shafted by politics when everyone in the country knew he should have been NWA champion. Instead he went on to forge an entirely different promotion, made himself champion, and elevated it to the same level as the title that he never got to hold.

The only point Austin has over Gagne is his marketability. In every other category Verne was just as good if not better.



Or we could be objective and consider Verne Gagne. Like Austin he was an all time great, and is just as deserving as winning this tournament.

I ll go one by one

Gagne should not be underestimated, He was so smooth and fluid in the ring and on top of ALL that he trained some of the absolute best.


Thesz was never that popular ion the Northeast I think we need a few stats to back up our points coz to the best of my knowledge Rocca drew for years to packed houses in MSG.


Brother I live in the 3rd world and believe me, Austin was THE guy and Attitude Era was THE era that brought them so abundantly over to millions here. It was a brilliant time to be growing up, it was all over school, your fathers generation knew Austin, Rock they fucking knew DX. It was on News at times. Surreal stuff.


Also, VKM created the foil AFTER Austin had gone unbelievably over with the people. He wasn't penciled in going forward, It was still a toss up between Shawn and Bret and before the curtain call, the Kliq was pushing for Hunter.

Gagne was an unbelievable worker, good god almighty I watched Billy Robinson (who I found fucking A) and Gagne have this exhibition of move after move hold after hold and I loved every moment. Gagne was so tongue in cheek when he spoke, had that little glint in his eye and much like Bryan gave off this aura of an absolute babyface. One of the greats without a shadow of a doubt.

But Austin had all that too, I am professing Stone Cold's excellence coz ppl at times forget how good he really was. Sure he got marketed right but many before him in the 90s had the machine behind them, but NOONE sold like he sold.

 

[Tastycles]

Gagne was in his day an immensely popular wrestler. Probably not quite up to Austin's level in that respect, but Austin's career was so flash in the pan in hindsight, that we forget that the crowd were tiring of him in the early 20th Century. The abiding storyline of Raw in the late 90s went like this - Austin gets creamed, lies down for ages, put in ambulance, drives back to arena later, raises hell, stunner. There's a point there where he lies down for ages though, and I think that would be Gagne's chance to win this. If it wasn't going to be a landslide, I'd be more balanced in my approach, but Gagne doesn't deserve to be smashed here, so I'll give him my vote.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Probably not quite up to Austin's level in that respect, but Austin's career was so flash in the pan in hindsight, that we forget that the crowd were tiring of him in the early 20th Century.

"By George, it's Austin! I say, it's Austin! He's on the way to the ring in a zeppelin and, dare I say, I think he's going to give Mr. McMahon what for!"

On Verne Gagne:

I think he's a good man. I like him. I got nothing against him, but Austin's definitely gonna make orphans of his children.