WCW Region, Third Round, Ladder Match: (5) Andre the Giant vs. (13) Goldberg

[Pay Per Ghost]

Plus Andre DID lose in his prime, more than was let on. They strived to maintain his "unbeatable" reputation by failing to mention the times he lost. His losses include El Canek, Jerry Lawler, Ron Garvin, Killer Kowalski, Harley Race, Antonio Inoki, Don Leo Jonathan, Lou Thesz, Karl Gotch, Strong Kobayashi and The Sheik. It's right not to include his two losses to Hogan and nine to Warrior as he was definitely past it at that point.

All are better wrestlers than Goldberg. In the end, I still say Andre would pull this one out. Glad to see you mention the Goldberg ladder matches. I genuinely had no idea he was in a ladder match.

Come on Lariat, if all what Deem says is true, that is Game, set n' match for Goldberg. Everyones whole basis for Andre was he almost NEVER lost in his prime. But he did.


Goldberg LADDER matches for me are additional proof that Goldberg will beat Andre.

 

[steve_smith]

even if Andre did lose a handful of times in 15 years......... so what! The guy wrestled all over the world and lost a couple of times by countout.

Now Goldberg wrestled for a couple of years and lost more than that. He EVEN got pinned. OH, AND HE FLOPPED in the WWF.

ANDRE NEVER FLOPPED.

Also, consider this. If you were writing this tournament who would you have advance? KEEP IN MIND who the bigger draw was and who would produce better tv ratings.

Andre the Giant is a millions times more important to the wrestling world than Goldberg. Andre's shits are more important to the wrestling world than Goldberg. If you were a writing this tournament, believe me, for ratings sakes you would let Andre the Giant move on past Goldberg in this tournament. WCW was wiped out immediately following Goldberg's (SHORT) run. WWE had dwindling TV ratings while Goldberg was featured. ANDRE the GIANT remains one of the BIGGEST DRAWS in the history of wrestling. No way the writers send him out to Goldberg.

Andre should advance despite what any old WCW fans would have you believe. Vote Andre.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Come on Lariat, if all what Deem says is true, that is Game, set n' match for Goldberg. Everyones whole basis for Andre was he almost NEVER lost in his prime. But he did.


Goldberg LADDER matches for me are additional proof that Goldberg will beat Andre.

It takes no talent to climb a ladder. In fact, most people who are known for ladder matches lose more than they win. Andre has the ability to incapacitate Goldberg, climb up the 4 or 5 rungs he would need to in order to pull down the case and win.

 

[fenderjapan]

The ladder cannot support the weight of the great Andre the Giant and his balance and momentum cause him to fall. Goldberg tries to spear Andre and does just as much damage to himself as he does to Andre, and drops Andre while attempting the jackhammer. Andre crushes Goldberg. Eventually goldberg makes it back to his feet, climbs the ladder for the win.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

It takes no talent to climb a ladder. In fact, most people who are known for ladder matches lose more than they win. Andre has the ability to incapacitate Goldberg, climb up the 4 or 5 rungs he would need to in order to pull down the case and win.

First of all, Goldberg has experience in these kinda matches, Andre doesn't so that's a plus in this kayfabe world. Secondly, Goldberg is quicker than Andre, so after he jackhammers him, he can get up and get that case from the top faster. Or as quickly as Andre thus negating his reach advantage.

 

[Thriller Ant]

The ladder cannot support the weight of the great Andre the Giant and his balance and momentum cause him to fall. Goldberg tries to spear Andre and does just as much damage to himself as he does to Andre, and drops Andre while attempting the jackhammer. Andre crushes Goldberg. Eventually goldberg makes it back to his feet, climbs the ladder for the win.

That is 702 pounds on that ladder. At his heaviest, Andre weighed 540. Please get a much less idiotic argument.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

That is 702 pounds on that ladder. At his heaviest, Andre weighed 540. Please get a much less idiotic argument.

Didn't justin rest this stupid fucking argument and pic? How many ladders are there? How many rungs are supporting that weight? Go fuckin find a pic where that many people are on ONE ladder, then we'll see who's idiotic.

 

[Thriller Ant]

First of all, Goldberg has experience in these kinda matches, Andre doesn't so that's a plus in this kayfabe world. Secondly, Goldberg is quicker than Andre, so after he jackhammers him, he can get up and get that case from the top faster. Or as quickly as Andre thus negating his reach advantage.

It was a huge deal when Hogan slammed Andre. What makes you think Goldberg can Jackhammer him? If experience was a plus, guys like Jeff Hardy and Edge would win every ladder/TLC match they are in.

Spoiler

They don't.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Didn't justin rest this stupid fucking argument and pic? How many ladders are there? How many rungs are supporting that weight? Go fuckin find a pic where that many people are on ONE ladder, then we'll see who's idiotic.

Punk and MVP are on the same rung. That's about 470 pounds. Andre was closer to 450 in his prime.

 

[PsychoBlack]

What is up wth the Goldberg hate here? The man was one of the three hottest names during the hottest period in wrestling ever. He came back after about a 2 year break and beat Hollywood Rock, an unstoppable HHH, man handled Evolution, beat Lesnar, hell when he was in Japan he pinned Satoshi Kojima. Goldberg headlined two Starcade's. You still here Goldberg chants in arena's when certain superstars come out, the man will never be forgotten. Goldberg is exactly the type of guy that Andre would have lost to no doubt in my mind, hell Goldberg would even get in a body slam before he hit the Jack Hammer on him.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

It was a huge deal when Hogan slammed Andre. What makes you think Goldberg can Jackhammer him? If experience was a plus, guys like Jeff Hardy and Edge would win every ladder/TLC match they are in.

Spoiler

They don't.

I'm not undermining Andre's legacy for fuck's sake. He helped make this business what it is. I've seen him matches, watched his documentaries and adore all of his crazy ass stories. Look if this was Goldberg vs Austin or a normal-sized guy, I would concede. As twisted as it sounds, big guys don't do well with Goldberg. One exception would be: Kevin Nash. But Goldberg beat him a LOT of times more before. I said this before, given Andre's size, the hype going into the match against Goldberg would be "Wow can Goldberg jackhammer that guy". And he would.


Why do you think we are getting Ryback vs Henry at Mania? Because all this leads to Ryback finally lifting Mark Henry and the fans shitting their pants. Big guys are fodder for powerhouses.

Also, the fact that Goldberg has been even in a handful of matches helps him here. Come on, it is a rare valuable experience point.

 

[Thriller Ant]

I'm not undermining Andre's legacy for fuck's sake. He helped make this business what it is. I've seen him matches, watched his documentaries and adore all of his crazy ass stories. Look if this was Goldberg vs Austin or a normal-sized guy, I would concede. As twisted as it sounds, big guys don't do well with Goldberg. One exception would be: Kevin Nash. But Goldberg beat him a LOT of times more before. I said this before, given Andre's size, the hype going into the match against Goldberg would be "Wow can Goldberg jackhammer that guy". And he would.

Or he wouldn't. Hogan wasn't the first guy to try and slam Andre. Just because Goldberg is a power wrestler doesn't mean he would slam Andre, just like Hogan wasn't the only power wrestler when he slammed Andre.

Why do you think we are getting Ryback vs Henry at Mania? Because all this leads to Ryback finally lifting Mark Henry and the fans shitting their pants. Big guys are fodder for powerhouses.

They are both powerhouses and Henry has been slammed before.

Also, the fact that Goldberg has been even in a handful of matches helps him here. Come on, it is a rare valuable experience point.

No, it isn't. The first time my parents had me climb up a ladder to clean out the gutters, they didn't have me practice first before I could do it. I climbed the ladder just like anyone that isn't handicapped in some way does and had no issues.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Or he wouldn't. Hogan wasn't the first guy to try and slam Andre. Just because Goldberg is a power wrestler doesn't mean he would slam Andre, just like Hogan wasn't the only power wrestler when he slammed Andre.



They are both powerhouses and Henry has been slammed before.



No, it isn't. The first time my parents had me climb up a ladder to clean out the gutters, they didn't have me practice first before I could do it. I climbed the ladder just like anyone that isn't handicapped in some way does and had no issues.

Ah for fuck's sake man, don't compare climbing a ladder KAYFABE to climbing a ladder in real life. Hey guess what, the People's Elbow wouldn't keep me down for a 3 count.

Yes Henry's been slammed, but the whole point of their match is Ryback lifting Henry and Shellshocking him. Whenever Henry's been slammed by a powerhouse like a Brock, it's been a OMG moment and the announcers have sold it as such. Brock on his way to SummerSlam F-5'd Henry and Rikhishi, that was done to build his persona. The meaning of this match is such as well.


Let's just jog our memories and remember, Goldberg's first match- Big fat Scott Norton. The JackHammer was impressive, and the announcers sold it well. Against The Giant big deal. When he JackHammered Reese from The Flock, the pop was huge. Goldberg doesn't lose to big guys, he uses them as stepping stones to showcase his power. Always has, that's the backbone of his legacy.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Ah for fuck's sake man, don't compare climbing a ladder KAYFABE to climbing a ladder in real life. Hey guess what, the People's Elbow wouldn't keep me down for a 3 count.

Even in kayfabe, it isn't difficult to climb a ladder. The only time that's ever really made a difference is when either Regal or Dave Taylor was afraid of heights.

Let's just jog our memories and remember, Goldberg's first match- Big fat Scott Norton. The JackHammer was impressive, and the announcers sold it well. Against The Giant big deal. When he JackHammered Reese from The Flock, the pop was huge. Goldberg doesn't lose to big guys, he uses them as stepping stones to showcase his power. Always has, that's the backbone of his legacy.

You just compared Reese and Scott Norton to Andre the Giant. I don't even have to point out how stupid that is.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Even in kayfabe, it isn't difficult to climb a ladder. The only time that's ever really made a difference is when either Regal or Dave Taylor was afraid of heights.

It isn't difficult thicko, what I said was there is experience there as Goldberg has participated in such a match. Andre hasn't. That counts. People would tout Undertaker's one win over Jeff Hardy in a Ladder Match as well, ye it's just ONE but it counts.

You just compared Reese and Scott Norton to Andre the Giant. I don't even have to point out how stupid that is.

Really, so all my stories about respecting Andre mean nothing now coz you twisted my point to seem like I insulted Andre?

Giants, super-heavyweights were fodder for Goldberg in his prime

 

[Thriller Ant]

It isn't difficult thicko, what I said was there is experience there as Goldberg has participated in such a match. Andre hasn't. That counts. People would tout Undertaker's one win over Jeff Hardy in a Ladder Match as well, ye it's just ONE but it counts.

By your logic, wouldn't Jeff Hardy have won that match? Taker didn't have any ladder match experience and Jeff had more than just about anyone.

Really, so all my stories about respecting Andre mean nothing now coz you twisted my point to seem like I insulted Andre?

Giants, super-heavyweights were fodder for Goldberg in his prime

I didn't twist anything. You said that Goldberg would beat Andre because he beat Reese and Scott Norton. I just pointed out that you're an idiot for thinking that.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

By your logic, wouldn't Jeff Hardy have won that match? Taker didn't have any ladder match experience and Jeff had more than just about anyone.

Son of a...what I said was when Taker was involved in a gimmick match in these tourneys, people would bring that up to show that he does have, whether it be rare, a successful ladder match experience okay?

I didn't twist anything. You said that Goldberg would beat Andre because he beat Reese and Scott Norton. I just pointed out that you're an idiot for thinking that.

Ah ye git, Goldberg would beat Andre coz Goldberg's legacy 's cool aspect is taking on super-heavyweight monsters and beating them.

Anyone reading this imagine, imagine Goldberg vs Andre in WCW BTW, THIS MATCH IS IN WCW BY THE WAY back in Goldberg's prime...close your eyes...imagine both men facing each other across the ring...

now tell me...what do you see happening?

 

[Thriller Ant]

Son of a...what I said was when Taker was involved in a gimmick match in these tourneys, people would bring that up to show that he does have, whether it be rare, a successful ladder match experience okay?

So you are admitting that you just proved your own argument wrong. Thank you very much. Andre incapacitates Goldberg and wins. Open and shut case.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

So you are admitting that you just proved your own argument wrong. Thank you very much. Andre incapacitates Goldberg and wins. Open and shut case.

Well the Taker win in real life is used in the Tourneys to support him, in a gimmick match, against an opponent who has had no said gimmick match experience?

Comprende?

See how that relates to Goldberg here? No. Move on.

Goldberg in an WCW region Spears Andre, JackHammers Andre, and climbs the Ladder.

Now shut it.

P.S: Do I really need to explain the difference you climbing a ladder in your house is different to having the tar beat out of you and then climbing one in a Ladder Match? I know it isn't difficult to climb a ladder but this is the premise of a whole GIMMICK match. It's supposed to look tough and be tough to do that. Goldberg has little experience in these MATCHES. It wasn't just a race, they had to render their opponents helpless to a point, where they wouldn't be able to stop you from procuring the object hung.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Well the Taker win in real life is used in the Tourneys to support him, in a gimmick match, against an opponent who has had no said gimmick match experience?

Comprende?

See how that relates to Goldberg here? No. Move on.

Goldberg in an WCW region Spears Andre, JackHammers Andre, and climbs the Ladder.

Now shut it.

You made 2 arguments:

1. Goldberg has ladder match experience and Andre doesn't.
2. Goldberg beat up big guys like Scott Norton and Reese.

The first one is useless, as you pointed out, and the second one is comparing career nobodies to one of the all-time greats. You have no credible argument there.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Sorry I edited late.

The first one isn't useless, read the premise of the Undertaker argument again. I explained it.

Goldberg has beaten almost every Superheavyweight in his way. He has done it, he will do it. Basically its one of the cool things that people paid to see him do.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Sorry I edited late.

The first one isn't useless, read the premise of the Undertaker argument again. I explained it.

Goldberg has beaten almost every Superheavyweight in his way. He has done it, he will do it. Basically its one of the cool things that people paid to see him do.

How many times do I have to repeat this to you? Ladder match experience doesn't matter. You brought up the perfect example of a match that proves that.

Goldberg never faced a guy with the size and aura of Andre. Comparing any match he did have is idiotic.

 

[deem]

Goldberg never faced a guy with the size and aura of Andre. Comparing any match he did have is idiotic.

This is just silly. There will never be another Andre the Giant as he was the very first colossal attraction that just happened to be great at wrestling too. A mega-star. So you're saying if theoretically this tournament is still taking place in 2050, after another 40 years of history and greats come, fade and Cena is wheeled out like f Mae Young, that STILL you'd be able to say "*Insert 2040's biggest star* never faced a guy with the size and aura of Andre - any match is incomparable". Face it, The Giant is the closest thing we've had since. He was billed as his kayfabe son at first ffs. Goldberg went 22-0. You can't just use this "he never faced a guy like Andre" as a cop-out, you've just gotta guess based on who he did face,

I'm not knocking Andre, but the pro-Andre voters need to step back and realise that not everyone voting Goldberg is some naive idiot who is underselling Andre. I've watched a ton of his early work, I came to the conclusion that not only is the stipulation against him, but that Goldberg is exactly the type of wrestler best equipped to deal with him.

If you are voting him over Goldberg, you really shouldn't be picking anyone over him other than possibly Inoki for the rest of the tournament. I know Andre is 1 win 72 losses to Warrior but he was way, way past his best here. Same for Hogan, he'd beat Hogan in his prime. As he did. As Goldberg did. Fact is, other than Inoki, Goldberg is THE best chance of taking out Andre. That's not underselling Andre, so stop being so outraged that anyone would take Bill here.

 

[Tastycles]

I don't care who wins this, and I stand by the reasons I went for Goldberg, but I'm sick of ladder matches in the tournament being completely stupid every year, so will post this.

I'm just using 1 on 1s for the scored matches as it is much easier, and as a result, anyone who has been in a multiman match previously is counted as a virgin for these purposes - you wouldn't say someone who had wrestled a tag match had singles experience, this should be no different. For added ease, I have used the ladder match listing on wikipedia, which features WWE, TNA, ROH, PWG and WCW

Won by ladder match virgin vs someone experienced: 11
Won by someone experienced vs ladder match virgin: 11

Ladder match experience doesn't help or hinder, then.

 

[Steamboat Ricky]

Andre's career was never really about winning and losing. He was an icon, much in the way that Roddy Piper was an icon. He didn't need to win or lose. He was a spectacle in and of himself.

Goldberg, however...his career was about wins and losses...the former being the most significant. In WCW, the guy just didn't lose. He beat everyone...and he usually did so in dominating fashion.

Andre doesn't need to win here to sell tickets for the tournament. But the tournament can make a lot of money if the Goldberg Wrecking Machine goes over...especially over a giant like Andre. Goldie's win/loss record over the bigs of the industry suggests that he will go over...and the booking itself makes sense, also.

Goldberg.