WCW Region, Osaka Subregion, First Round: (14)Booker T vs. (19)John Bradshaw Layfield

[PsychoBlack]

Booker T gets this one. JBL was champion for a year and all, but, other than that what did he really do? Booker has held the world title 6 times and has never been booked as anything less than upper mid card throughout his career. JBL got his shot in a transitional period for Smackdown which was terrible at the time. Their were also a lot of other factors that went into JBL's title reign. Lesnar left Cena and Batista weren't ready yet Angle was the GM. Not to mention most of his wins came via DQ or that a lot of times he didn't win he would be the one getting DQed. JBL is a marginally good talent but he shouldnt go past Booker here.

 

[Tastycles]

JBL was a one trick pony with one big year, whereas Booker was a workhorse who was at the heights for longer, the only problem is that his heights weren't as high. It was a tough choice this, but I've copped out and gone with prime vs. prime. That year on Smackdown for JBL was much more big time than Booker T's year in the declining WCW. I'll probably use JBL's short termer nature against him in future, but for now, he's got my vote.

 

[Papa Pillman]

I think this one boils down to a couple things:

Okay... let's stop watching the pot and get to it.

1. Do Booker's 4 reigns as World Champion in WCW hold up alongside his 2 reigns in WWE against JBL's run with the WWE Championship, the longest in SmackDown history?

I say yes. In 2000/2001 WCW wanted to make Booker their version of The Rock. Having him add constantly to his catch-phrase collection, use a finisher similar to Rock's, and just presenting him as more of a star. It may not have worked out, but it did result in Booker having over a year as essentially the company's number one guy.

2. Both were in famous tag teams, do Booker's 10 Tag Title reigns mean Harlem Heat was a better tag team than Bradshaw and the APA with their 3?

I would also argue yes in Booker's favor here but I'm not sure its relevant either way in a singles tournament.

I think I'm leaning toward Booker at the moment, but I can probably be swayed to JBL's side.

I think Book is the safe bet. He is the most decorated wrestler in WCW history as far as total titles, and he was the last World and US champ in the Nitro-era. And this is the WCW region.

If a prime Bradshaw would've come to WCW with the JBL gimmick near the end of Booker's run there he would have just been a high-profile heel for Booker to defeat as part of WCW's quest to try and make Booker look like an equal to the WWE's top babyfaces.

 

[Coco]

Booker T was an all around better and more accomplished performer. JBL had one nice run with the World Title but people forget that it was right after Brock Lesnar left and it was before Cena was ready to take the reigns as the top guy. Still an impressive run by JBL but it was when Smackdown was at its worst and everything else in his career was relatively unimpressive.

Amusing that you should bring up a thin roster as the reason why JBL was given the world title. Because when you look at that thin roster, Booker T (even with his renewed push upon being drafted to SmackDown) was a midcard place holder well beneath the Wrestling God. As a matter of fact, Booker failed to regain the world title UNTIL Bradshaw retired in 2006, opening up SmackDown's top heel spot. And even then, Booker achieved what he did at a time when SmackDown's roster was even thinner than it was in 2004, sans the recently departed Angle and Orton. Booker's most significant challengers were Batista and a green Bobby Lashley.

Knock JBL's reign all you want, but JBL and Booker were contemporaries. Booker simply failed to swim the same waters as well as JBL did. I won't even discuss latter-day WCW because, really, who cares?

JBL over Booker. Sauce it.

 

[Big Sexy]

Amusing that you should bring up a thin roster as the reason why JBL was given the world title. Because when you look at that thin roster, Booker T (even with his renewed push upon being drafted to SmackDown) was a midcard place holder well beneath the Wrestling God. As a matter of fact, Booker failed to regain the world title UNTIL Bradshaw retired in 2006, opening up SmackDown's top heel spot. And even then, Booker achieved what he did at a time when SmackDown's roster was even thinner than it was in 2004, sans the recently departed Angle and Orton. Booker's most significant challengers were Batista and a green Bobby Lashley.

In 2004 Booker T was an upper mid card face which is why he was just another guy who fell to the heel, cheating JBL until there was a megaface to defeat him which came in the form of John Cena. Booker T's reign in 2006 was only shorter because Batista came back from injury soon after Booker got the title. With JBL they had to wait until face Cena was slowly built up and ready to take the title from him at Mania. The SMackdown reigns of JBL and Booker are extremely similar.

The difference between the two and what gives Booker the victory is the fact that while 2004 was really JBL's only reign at the top, Booker T had multiple primes. He had the 2000-2001 era with WCW and then the WWE during the Invasion where he was a top guy. Then he had late 2002 and early 2003 where he was involved in main event matches and built up to a Mania world title match with Triple H. Then he finally had 2006 as King Booker. Let's also not forget this match takes place in the WCW region where Booker was one of the VERY few guys who was built up through the ranks of the promotion to finally become world champion.

 

[Coco]

In 2004 Booker T was an upper mid card face which is why he was just another guy who fell to the heel

Booker started his SmackDown run on a heel turn, feuding with Undertaker. If he was such a big deal, he'd have had JBL's spot. But the company decided they'd rather have an unproven JBL on top than Booker. That shows you Booker's value right there.

cheating JBL until there was a megaface to defeat him which came in the form of John Cena.

Taker was a mega face. He was active enough to carry the title in 2004. But it was decided that JBL had more value with the belt than the Undertaker.

Booker's never been that good.

Booker T's reign in 2006 was only shorter because Batista came back from injury soon after Booker got the title.

JBL had enough juice to survive the Undertaker.

Booker wasn't game enough for Batista.

Wow. You're making a great argument.

He had the 2000-2001 era with WCW and then the WWE during the Invasion where he was a top guy.

Medium sized fish in a pond rapidly decreasing in size. It's no wonder that his stock fell after a few months in the big leagues.

Then he had late 2002 and early 2003 where he was involved in main event matches and built up to a Mania world title match with Triple H.

He had an out-of-nowhere, one month build to that match.

Is this meant to convince me Booker T is hot shit? 'Cause if he were hot shit, he'd have been a priority long before one month prior to Mania. And he'd have had a chance in hell of winning.

Booker T ain't shit. Sorry.

Let's also not forget this match takes place in the WCW region where Booker was one of the VERY few guys who was built up through the ranks of the promotion to finally become world champion.

Let's not forget that WCW was the drizzling shits when Booker got his chance. The fact that there are real stars in this region pretty much kills any possibility of Booker coasting to success.

And the fact of the matter is that JBL was just a bigger deal than Booker T ever was. Simple as that.

 

[Big Sexy]

Booker started his SmackDown run on a heel turn, feuding with Undertaker. If he was such a big deal, he'd have had JBL's spot. But the company decided they'd rather have an unproven JBL on top than Booker. That shows you Booker's value right there.

Actually it shows you that Booker T had just gotten traded to Smackdown and started his heel turn which didn't take place over night. By the time he was a full on heel the JBL/Guerrero feud was underway. JBL's heel turn happened instantly and the first promo he cut in his new gimmick was about Mexicans, immigration, etc.

Taker was a mega face. He was active enough to carry the title in 2004. But it was decided that JBL had more value with the belt than the Undertaker.

Undertaker had just returned to the WWE a few months earlier after taking time off and at this point in his career he served the role of the veteran who didn't need the title to get over similar to HBK during this time. In fact Taker didn't go on to win the world title again for almost three years. He spent most of 2004 and 2005 feuding with the likes of the Dudley Boyz, Heidenreich, and Randy Orton.

JBL had enough juice to survive the Undertaker.

Booker wasn't game enough for Batista.

Wow. You're making a great argument

Taker getting the belt from JBL would have made JBL's reign meaningless and fucked up the ultimate goal of that entire almost year long reign, which was to have Cena get built up and go over the cheating heel that no one liked.

Booker T successfully defended his title twice against Batista before finally losing the belt to him.

Wow. You are completely our of your league trying to debate me.

Medium sized fish in a pond rapidly decreasing in size. It's no wonder that his stock fell after a few months in the big leagues.

Yea defeating the likes of Goldberg, Kevin Nash, and Sting during the last year of WCW was just awful. And then coming to the WWE and beating the likes of Jericho and Kurt Angle in WCW title matches really shows his stock falling .

He had an out-of-nowhere, one month build to that match.

At the end of 2002 he was a participant in the Elimination Chamber main event at Survivor Series and had some single and tag matches with Jericho right after. A few months later in February of 2003 he started having matches with members of Evolution and that began the Mania feud with Triple H. After Mania he continued feuding with Triple H and evolution for another month. It wasn't a long stretch but he had some time feuding with the top of the RAW brand (Triple H) at a time when very few guys outside of the elite (Triple H's buddies and Goldberg) got that chance.

Let's not forget that WCW was the drizzling shits when Booker got his chance. The fact that there are real stars in this region pretty much kills any possibility of Booker coasting to success.

It was no more shit then what Smackdown was during the year JBL was on top.

And the fact of the matter is that JBL was just a bigger deal than Booker T ever was. Simple as that.

Considering that's a completely false statement it really isn't simple as that.

 

[Coco]

Actually it shows you that Booker T had just gotten traded to Smackdown and started his heel turn which didn't take place over night. By the time he was a full on heel the JBL/Guerrero feud was underway. JBL's heel turn happened instantly and the first promo he cut in his new gimmick was about Mexicans, immigration, etc.

They were both slotted to be heels from the word go after the brand extension.

JBL got picked over Booker despite being an unproven headliner. Simple as that. If they wanted Booker, they could have had him. They didn't. They paired him with Eddie on his first night on SmackDown and moved onto JBL because that's who they saw money in.

Undertaker had just returned to the WWE a few months earlier after taking time off and at this point in his career he served the role of the veteran who didn't need the title to get over similar to HBK during this time. In fact Taker didn't go on to win the world title again for almost three years. He spent most of 2004 and 2005 feuding with the likes of the Dudley Boyz, Heidenreich, and Randy Orton.

Taker was working a more regular schedule at this point than at points when he actually won the belt. Let's call a spade a spade. WWE thought JBL was more valuable as champion than Taker.

Something Booker's never been.

Taker getting the belt from JBL would have made JBL's reign meaningless and fucked up the ultimate goal of that entire almost year long reign, which was to have Cena get built up and go over the cheating heel that no one liked.

The fact that Cena's push went down like this doesn't mean it was a grand plan. Especially on account of the rumours that JBL's title win was a result of Eddie feeling pressured as champion and his reign getting cut short. But even if JBL's title win was WWE calling an audible, they didn't hit the abort button when Taker was an obvious out. They powered on through. They believed in JBL.

Far more than they ever believed in Booker. Seeing a pattern yet?

Booker T successfully defended his title twice against Batista before finally losing the belt to him.

So essentially, you're saying Booker failed to survive his first feud as champion.

And I agree. He is a massive failure when compared to JBL.

Wow. You are completely our of your league trying to debate me.

I'm not sure a guy who was likely educated in Detroit has the right to be talking down to anyone.

Yea defeating the likes of Goldberg, Kevin Nash, and Sting during the last year of WCW was just awful.

I agree. Booker's push was just another factor which made WCW unwatchable.

And then coming to the WWE and beating the likes of Jericho and Kurt Angle in WCW title matches really shows his stock falling .

It's Attitude Era WWF. Everybody beat everybody. But look at the trend his career took. He lost to Rock at SummerSlam, then failed to win the title back in a handicap match that favoured him, then got to be fodder for Taker and Team WWF, and then he feuded with Edge at WrestleMania over a shampoo commercial. At that point, WWE pulled the plug on his singles run and mercifully threw him in a tag team. If he didn't have a partner good enough to carry him, he'd likely have gone the way of DDP by the end of 2002.

Yeah, what a bright, shining star he was.

At the end of 2002 he was a participant in the Elimination Chamber main event at Survivor Series

Yeah, with Kane, RVD, and Jericho. It was HHH vs HBK, guest starring some upper midcarders.

If participating in an Chamber match is some sort of trump card, you might as well give up. Booker's clearly a lost cause.

and had some single and tag matches with Jericho right after.

Who hasn't?

A few months later in February of 2003 he started having matches with members of Evolution and that began the Mania feud with Triple H.

RVD and Kane were also fighting Evolution members that month.

Booker's road to Mania didn't start until he won that battle royal.

After Mania he continued feuding with Triple H and evolution for another month.

Of course he was overshadowed during that time by HBK and an ageing Kevin Nash.

Shows you once again just how valuable Booker is considered as a headliner.

It was no more shit then what Smackdown was during the year JBL was on top.

A yeah when SmackDown was still far more stacked than the time Booker had the belt on SmackDown. Let's not forget the facts.

Considering that's a completely false statement it really isn't simple as that.

The evidence tells a different story, son.

 

[Little Jerry Lawler]

2004 Roster - Guerrero, Angle, Big Show, Undertaker

2006 Roster- Batista, Lashley, Finlay

I think I know what roster I'm taking.

Goldust was really Booker's saving grace in 2002 because the Bookman was going nowhere. They decided to give him a shot at the title at Wrestlemania and he became a dead issue for me until his feud with Kurt Angle. An IC feud with Christian that nobody cared about, a feud with Henry that nobody cared about, a tag team with RVD that nobody cared about, horrible matches over the U.S. Title with John Cena, etc.

I had something else negative to say about him but I forgot. Just par for the course.

 

[HBsam31]

This one was of the toughest matches to pick for me so far. I can see arguments from both sides. When I look at over all career I just think Booker has the edge in this match. JBL did have a great run as champ on Smackdown, and that run was definitely better than all of Booker's runs, but when I take into account tag team success and overall I just think Booker has the slight edge.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

I'd be amazed to hear that SmackDown figures in 2004 where so astounding as to make the Booker T WCW reigns unwatched in comparison... or his subsequent run as King Booker in 2006.

As far as quality of opponents, well Booker has beaten a who's who of superstars over his lengthy career as a singles wrestler... JBL had 1 notable singles run of 2 years in a 14 year career. Most people are talking about this being close because of the one long reign JBL had (280 days) and Booker's reigns not lasting so long (6 reigns; 379 days) but it's been long touted that it is easier to hold a belt than win it and the way JBL held onto the belt definitely supports that theory which makes Booker's ability to keep winning World Titles very noteworthy. Throw in the remainder of their careers and JBL isn't in Booker's league.

 

[shattered dreams]

I voted for Booker. More impressive resume. Boring but true. In retrospect the WCW region serves as a reasonable tiebreaker. I only skimmed the thread but seems like people are underselling Booker's earlier career.

 

[sportznutt]

This was a tough one for me, and so far I'm the deciding vote, but I LOVED JBL and The cabinet, despite the fact that King Booka was awesome........but I'll go with the better color commentator.

 

[The Brain]

This is probably the toughest first round match. I always enjoy people standing by their guy in the debate but realistically it’s not like one of these guys is so far above the other. My first instinct is Booker. I think it’s because of the longevity and because for so long I’ve been reminded over and over that he’s a five time world champion (weird that even he seems to ignore is WWE championship). I hate to pick on WCW (not really) but my God was that last year and a half just awful. Being on top during that time wasn’t all that impressive. On the other hand, JBL wasn’t really anything until he became JBL. His run on top was brief but it was impressive and he did a hell of a job reinventing himself into a main eventer. It really is a close call but I’m going with JBL. As others have pointed out JBL’s time on top came when he was on the same show as Booker and JBL was clearly ahead of Booker during that time. It wasn’t an easy choice and if the poll was open for another day I might have voted the other way tomorrow. Time’s running out so I need to pick one. JBL it is.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

At first I thought this would be tough to decide then I remembered JBL spending the best part of his career repeatedly adjusting his tights in the ring. I never bought JBL's prime. He wasn't much more than a comedian and enforcer type for most of his career and if you are going to pit him up against someone with the size, speed, and strength of Booker T, JBL is going to easily lose. JBL can pick my stocks but he loses to Booker T.

And....

Just because you add "from Hell" to the end of a clothesline, it's still just a clothesline.