WCW LA, Round 3, Match 1: #3 Sting vs. #14 Lou Thesz

[Shocky]

The following match takes place in the WCW Region, where the ring and entrance are equal height, from Los Angeles, CA.

#3. Sting

vs.

#14. Lou Thesz

 

[Gelgarin]

Gelgarin - Because all good things are better a second time round. To warn anybody who's already read my original article, there is no new content here, I'm simply not wrapping the thing in quote tags because it'll make it less pleasing to read. The following is why you should vote for Lou Thesz. I guess I'll go with the in vogue accusation that anybody who doesn't agree with me is just a smark trying to look cool, although I'm not sure how that works.

Let it begin.

There is a lot of wiggle room surrounding the issue, but I strongly believe that I would not be totally out of place to assert that Sting is the most popular guy on the entire forum. (Guy as is wrestler, not guy as in Luther). He certainly has a great many fans, and almost uniquely of the main event wrestlers, the man has almost no detractors. Hell, even old school Gelgarin was pretty fond of The Stinger, although only once he donned the cool face paint.

That being said, it seems I've ended up against some insurmountable odds. At this stage of the tournament, any active wrestler is going to receive a truckload of votes from people who don't know who their opponent is, and there are a serious handful of people on the forum who are likely to vote for Sting no matter what, and who I have no chance of convincing.

My only hope is to sway enough of the wavering voters to create some early momentum, and push Thesz through by a narrow, but fair, margin.

You see, the fact of the matter is that there is absolutely not reason, aside from being a blind Sting mark, why you should vote for Sting in this contest. I spent the last week coming up with possible criteria that people could vote based upon, and I can safely say that Thesz comes out ahead in every single one. Critical essays are supposed to outline their topics for discussion during the opening, but I think that ship's pretty much sailed, so I shall do so now.

I this essay I intend to prove that, in relation to Sting, Lou Thesz was;

A better legit wrestler.
A better kayfabe wrestler.
A better technical wrestler.
A faster wrestler.
A stronger wrestler.
A smarter wrestler.
A better conditioned wrestler.
A more important wrestler.
A more popular wrestler.

In the interests of fairness, I must also concede the point that, in relation to Lou Thesz, The Icon Sting was;

A better striker. (possibly, I’ll go into this one later)
A better high flyer.
A better selector of ring attire.

So, without further ado, let us begin our journey towards;

Why Lou Thesz Goes Over Sting.​

Part 1: Lou Thesz was a better legit wrestler.​

A lot of people are going to say that it doesn't matter, which is a fair stance to take, although personally I think that they're wrong. Mark Henry used the gimmick of being the worlds strongest man, and has power lifting credentials to justify it. I don't think many people would dispute that as proof of his strength, and this is in a time period where kayfabe and real life and much less blurred that in Thesz's era. When Lou Thesz went to work in Mexico, promoters often asked him what him gimmick was (American workers at the time traditionally came to the ring in business suits or overalls) and he always responded that his gimmick was wrestling.

Lou Thesz's gimmick was that he was the most talented legitimate wrester in the world, and he had the credentials to prove it. Aside from shoot fight victories over guys like Gotch and Inoki (the later in 14 seconds for those who are interested) you simply have the consider the environments that Thesz fought in. During his ten years and the number one guy in America, Thesz regularly wrestled outside of his own area of influence, going up against local heroes with biased judges who would award any fall against him, and the only way for him to come out on top he would have to physically incapacitate his opponent via a snapped arm or similar.

Furthermore, one of the downsides of a rigidly upheld kayfabe was that it opened the door to every shooter in the industry (And as the top guy, Lou had a pretty big target on his back). In those days it was very common to see guys going into business for themselves in the middle of matches trying to change the outcome by force. Thesz was a master of defending against these kinds of assaults, and never succumbed to a shoot attack.

Nobody in the industry could match Thesz is a legitimate contest. He was untouchable.

2) Lou Thesz was a better kayfabe wrestler.​

Sting's done a lot with his career.

Sting held the NWA championship for 216 days (although only 188 of those days were when the title mattered, the rest were TNA). That's a phenomenal feet, and something that only seventeen wrestlers in the world can claim to have surpassed. Unfortunately for Sting, one of those wrestlers is Lou Thesz, who held the NWA championship when it was the biggest title in the world, and held it for a combined 3,749 days. That's over seventeen times longer than Sting. In addition, during his title reign, Thesz defended the belt far more frequently.

But what does a title matter? Well, it singles that you are the best wrestler in the world, but I think I can see where people are going with this. Somebody's going to claim that Thesz may have defeated every single notable wrester from his time period, but that doesn't matter because none of them are household names any more.

Here is a list of people Lou Thesz has defeated.

Harley Race.
Terry Funk.
Dory Funk (I think. It was a Funk, and wasn't Terry)
Bruno Sammartino.
Rikidozan.
Antonio Inoki.
Every big name American between 1940 and 1960.

I've tried to keep the list brief, and limit it to people everybody is going to know. If I wanted to rattle off old school legends that he's defeated then I could, but I'm assuming that anybody well versed enough in their wrestling history to know about guys like Gagne and Zabisco doesn't need me telling them that Thesz was bigger than them.

Sting has a lot of high profile victories as well, I'm not going to deny that, but there's a major difference that has to be considered.Sting also had a lot of high profile losses. Lou Thesz didn't. Lou Thesz once went 800+ matches without sustaining a loss (fuck you Goldberg!)

So yes, Lou Thesz won more matches, he won more often, and to be frank, he usually won more decisively. He held major championships for longer and defended them more often. Lou Thesz was a stronger kayfabe wrestler.

3) Lou Thesz was a better technical wrestler​

This monstrosity is already getting pretty long, so save me some grief and don't make me argue this. Lou Thesz invented half the holds in his arsenal. He was a master of submissions and takedowns. Nobody in the industry had a better understanding of leverage and weight dynamics. Lou Thesz was a better technical wrestler than Sting.

4) Lou Thesz was a faster wrestler. ​

Let’s be clear here, I’m not talking about nailing spinning back kicks or hitting a 540 corkscrew shooting star press off the top rope. Thesz never needed that stuff to be entertaining. What I’m talking about is attack speed. Thesz’s offence is best compared to a freight train. Once he gets going he doesn’t stop, and he doesn’t slow down. When Sting executes a backdrop there's a pause of a few seconds whilst the icon gets back to his feat. When Thesz executed his famous Greco-Roman backdrop he would be on his opponents within the blink of an eye. Thesz was capable of working a match as a pace that would make his opponents virtually pass out. Buddy Rogers once famously had to be carried from the ring, after Thesz went full speed for sixty minutes. Now Buddy Rogers was lazy and shit, but it doesn’t change the fact that he was a conditioned athlete, and Thesz’s ability to physically incapacitate him without shooting in any way, speaks volumes.

To further back up my point, allow me to present out first piece of video evidence, Lou Thesz against Tom Rice.

I think this footage is one of the earliest documented usages of what I will call the Cradle Shock, but the second fall isn’t what I’m looking to demonstrate. All you really need to see is Thesz absolutely demolishing Rice in the opening minute. Notice a) how phenomenal his dropkicks are, and b) how he just attacks and attacks until his opponent has the good sense to stay down. No extended selling. No pausing the shout “woo” or play to the crowd. Lou Thesz would attack and attack until Sting couldn’t go any more.
[youtube]I12lMXnQ8EA[/youtube]

5)Lou Thesz was a stronger wrestler. ​

Strength is a bit of a misleading term on account of it being inexorably tied to leverage. Fortunately for me, Thesz was a master of both. He was able to toss the 340lb Mormon Giant Don Leo Jonathon around like a rag doll. This is the same Mormon Giant who once ripped the ring post off of the side of the ring and used it to batter Andre the Giant to a pulp. DLJ was huge, and Thesz was able to lift him clean off his feet and dump him on the back of his head for the three.

Sting has never been famed for his strength, relying on quickness and athleticism whenever his was faced with an opponent bigger and stronger than him. The problem for Sting comes from the fact that, in general, when he faced an opponent with a size or power advantage, that opponent paid for it in speed and technique. As we’ve already seen, Thesz gives nothing up in speed, and many, many times Sting’s superior in technique. As a result, the Icon is left with very few advantages. Some of which I will take a moment to talk about now.

6)Sting was a batter striker. Or was he? ​

Sting throws a lot of punches. Lou Thesz didn’t. Lou Thesz wrestled under rules that would have disqualified him had he used his fists like the Stinger. In fairness I should point out that Lou Thesz, when working as a heel, was a master of the lighting fast open hand slap, but even so, it seems logical to draw the conclusion that Sting was a batter close quarters fighter than Thesz.

Unfortunately for Sting, I happen to know a little something about Lou Thesz that not many people know. It’s fairly well documented that Lou Thesz was in the US army. He was enlisted to fight against the Germans I believe, although my history sucks. Anyway, during his time in uniform, Lou Thesz was picked out of the ranks, and tasked with teaching close quarters combat for the US army. If that doesn’t make you qualified, I don’t know what does.

Lou Thesz may give something up to Sting when it comes to throwing a right hook, but his CQC ability more than makes up for it.

7) Sting will have a crowd advantage. Who Cares? ​

Sting is really, really cool.

This fight is in WCW, Sting’s backyard.

Sting has been a face for the majority of his career.

The fans are going to cheer for Sting.

Lou Thesz doesn’t care.

Thesz toured extensively with the NWA championship. He spent most of his career going into hostile territories and facing local heroes. He’s been booed plenty of times, and each time it happened his solution has been the same. Give his opponent a ringing open handed slap out of the corner, then repeatedly backdrop them until they give in. The crowd is going to have no effect on Lou Thesz.

What is going to have an effect is the fact that Sting has a compulsion to showboat. Sting will waste time taunting to the crowd, and as we’ve already established, you can’t ever afford to offer Lou Thesz an opening. In his first match against Antonio Inoki, the younger man put his weight on the wrong leg for a moment, and ten seconds later Lou Thesz had back dropped him and picked up the victory. The cheering crowd isn’t going to phase Thesz, but it might hand him an opening to win the match.

On the topic of Thesz winning the match, let us continue out countdown (or up, as the case may be) of the advantages Lou Thesz has going into this match.

8) Lou Thesz was a smarter wrestler.​

This is possibly the only area of my essay where my intention is more to bash Sting than to promote Thesz. All through his career, Sting made mistakes constantly. He frequently “went to the well” with the Stinger Splash one too many times, and ended up flat on his back because of it. Kurt Angle aside nobody in wrestling had a lower success rate with his finisher than Sting had with the Scorpion Death Lock. Sting had a terrible sense of self preservation, allowing people to constantly jump him from behind, and he had horrendous ring awareness, which is possibly why he didn’t notice that Luger was cheating to win all of those tag matches.

Sting was not, in any respect, a smart wrestler. Conversely, Lou Thesz is about as smart as they come. Nobody ever got into the head of Lou Thesz, no amount of mind games or makeup is going to faze him. People tried all kinds of sneaky things to take advantage of Thesz, yet he still almost never lost a match. Lou Thesz was a machine inside the squared circle, and certainly has a mental advantage over Sting.

9) Lou Thesz was better conditioned wrestler.​

Again, I’d hope that there isn’t too much need to go into depth with this one. Aside from the fact that Thesz wrestled more often than Sting, his matched also went on much, much longer. Every NWA title match was contested under two out of three falls rules, meaning that right from the offset Thesz’s matches were scheduled to go longer. In fact, Thesz frequently competed in matches that lasted sixty minutes. These days if two performers go more than twenty minutes it’s considered to be proof of conditioning, yet Thesz was going three times longer than that on a regular basis. Thesz had better cardio, endurance, and resilience. Lou Thesz is the kind of wrestler for who the term “iron man” was originally coined, and there is no question that he’s in a better physical condition that the Icon.

10) Lou Thesz was a more important wrestler. ​

I really want to cap this off at three thousand words, so you’ll forgive me if I try to be brief. Take Sting away from professional wrestling and what you get is professional wrestling without Sting. Once against let me make sure that I’m not misunderstood. Sting was tremendous at his job, and during his career he was very important to WCW, but he will not leave the same kind of legacy as someone like Thesz.

Thesz shaped so many aspects of pro wrestling. He united all the fractured world championships and transformed wrestling from a local to a national sport. He, more than anybody else (although I know some George Tragos fans disagree with me here) was responsible for bringing wrestling into the public eye, and becoming its first ever international superstar. Lou himself might not like me saying this, but Thesz was the business’s Hulk Hogan before the business had Hulk Hogan.

Thesz was the most important (possible sans Ed Lewis) in ring pioneer ever. I know Wikipedia lists a handful of throws he invented, but it doesn’t acknowledge exactly how much of what we call “professional wrestling” came from the boots of Lou Thesz. Minor mannerisms like refusing to give a clean break out of the corner, whipping to the ropes out of a headlock, or getting in a cheap shot when rising to your feet, these foundations of what pseudo-intellectuals call ring psychology were popularized by Thesz.

Lou Thesz is responsible for the growth of Wrestling in Japan. It wasn’t until he traveled there and put Dozan over that the sport exploded into the phenomenon that it is today.

As I said earlier, remove Sting from the industry and what you get is an industry without Sting. Well it’s the same for Lou Thesz, in that if you take Lou Thesz out of history, then what you get is an industry without Sting… or anyone else for that matter. Professional wrestling needed somebody like Thesz to transfer it from being a sport to being a work. A charismatic monster like Hogan or Sammartino couldn’t have done it. They needed the best in the world. When Thesz began profession wrestling was a collection of ragtag promotions of varying degrees of legitimacy. Thesz conquered them all, brought professional wrestling together, and paved the way for the superstars of the next generation to come.

You take that legitimate lynchpin away from the industry, and it all falls apart. There are maybe three guys in the industry’s history who you can say that about, one if Hulk Hogan, one is Thesz, and one got jobbed out to Bob Backland in the first round of this thing. None of them however can have the claim made about them with the same level of conviction as Thesz however. He was flat out essential not just to making the industry what it is today, but in there being an industry in the first place, and in terms of importunateness, Sting simply doesn’t present a challenge.

11) Lou Thesz was a more popular wrestler​

Let me say right now, in my eyes, this is the most ridicules reason I can think of to sway your voting. That being said, it’s the most obvious loophole that those looking to vote for Sting “by any means necessary” are likely to take, so I figured I’d better cover it.

First, let me qualify. Lou Thesz wrestled before the national television era. He didn’t have a weekly TV show to get him over. He was dependent almost entirely on local promotion, and on the word of mouth. And with that huge disadvantage, he still managed to become a bigger sensation than Sting. To put things in simple perspective, if you took Sting off of Nitro for six months, it had a very limited effect on ratings because Sting was simply one of many starts. If you put Lou Thesz onto a card where previously no Lou Thesz had been, you could expect an additional 20-30,000 paying customers. Thesz drew in the old school sense of the word.

Sting is popular wherever he goes, but he’s not an international legend like Thesz. When Thesz used to guest referee matches in Japan they used to give him a five minute standing ovation just for showing up, and this was years before he and Dozan had ever locked up. When Thesz and Dozan did lock up for the first time in Japan, it drew an 87.0 television rating.

At the end of the day though, it is unfair to guage a wrestlers popularity across such a generation gulf (and this is one of the many reasons why you shouldn’t vote based on popularity). The only way to judge the popularity of a wrestler is against his peers. Lou Thesz outshone every other name in the industry for generations. He was the biggest and the best. Sting… not so much.

Now I’ve talked longer than anybody could possibly desire to read, so I’ll wrap up quickly. Lou Thesz should win this match against Sting. We’re going to have to battle every step of the way to make sure he doesn’t get swamped out by the “popular vote”, but he should win. And the reason he should win, at the end of the day, is because he’s Lou Thesz. A true wrestling god.

 

[Checkmate]

Ok, so now I've read all that twice...

The sad part is, I was going to vote for Thesz over Sting anyway, and all that good stuff above just sealed the deal. I just don't think anything can logically sway me to vote for someone instead of a true wrestling god. How could I then vote for Sting, if without Thesz, Sting wouldn't be Sting.

If I need to get technical on the match, sure, they could go toe to toe for a bit. However, eventually Thesz gets bored with someone botching the moves he innovated and creates a fresh new way to win. Nothing against Sting here, but he is simply outclassed. Thesz for the win.

 

[jmt225]

Gelgarin... I already responded to that ridiculously long ass post. So, I'll get to Mr. Checkmate instead.

I just don't think anything can logically sway me to vote for someone instead of a true wrestling god.

Lou Thesz is a legend, on the same par as Sting, if not below. He's nowhere near being a "true wrestling God".

How could I then vote for Sting, if without Thesz, Sting wouldn't be Sting.

And how do you know this? I explained in my response to Gelgarin how the business would be exactly where it's at today whether or not Lou Thesz ever existed. He was a nice little draw for a little while until pro wrestling took that turn to being entertainment, rather than an actual sport. Thesz was just the biggest draw before the business made that turn, and he had NOTHING to do with the turn, either.

If I need to get technical on the match, sure, they could go toe to toe for a bit. However, eventually Thesz gets bored with someone botching the moves he innovated and creates a fresh new way to win.

It's like I said to Gelgarin in his other thread, if you want to take this to a technical aspect and only vote due to kayfabe or even shoot, Kurt Angle would absolutely wipe the floor with Thesz in every aspect imaginable. There's no doubt about that. And you know what? Kayfabe wise, like if a match between Sting and Thesz ever took place, Sting has a bunch of wins over Kurt Angle (and other technical legends like Bret Hart). To me, that takes away the entire argument of Thesz beating Sting in a match, because everything Thesz was good at, Kurt Angle was superior.

Nothing against Sting here, but he is simply outclassed. Thesz for the win.

Sting is nowhere near being out classed by Thesz. Sting more popular, has more classic matches and moments under his belt, and was a top guy during the wrestling highest moment, financially wise.

 

[MattMoses]

Sting is my favourite wrestler of all-time. As an all-rounder, he may very well the best to ever stop foot in a ring. I really don't think there was a weak aspect to him - some stronger than others, but he was very well versed. He possessed phenomenal strength, on one occasion walking around the entire ring with Vader on his fucking back. And that was after a fierce, twelve minute or so brawl. He's proven to have incredible stamina, lasting well over 40 minutes in a handful of matches. He's incredibly fast and agile, and on occasion has shown he can get technical when need be. He's undoubtedly one of the most charismatic guys ever in the business, and the same goes for his popularity. And while I don't know the extent of Thesz's influence on people to actually become wrestlers, Sting was quite influential - the likes of Jeff Hardy, CM Punk and John Cena have stated one way or another that they "wanted to be that guy" and Sting was their guy growing up in the business.

He's about as accomplished and decorated as a wrestler can be. NWA World Heavyweight champion, two-time WCW International Heavyweight champion, six time WCW World Heavyweight champion, NWA-TNA World Heavyweight champion, two time TNA World Heavyweight champion. And on top of that, he has multiple US championship reigns, TV Title reigns, World Tag-Team championships, two-time European Cup winner, winner of the 1989 Iron Man tournament...I needn't go on.

Sting has been a part of some of the greatest matches and feuds ever. Feuds with Ric Flair, Big Van Vader, Hollywood Hogan and the nWo are legendary. He has beaten the biggest names of the modern era at sometime or another. Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, Steve Austin, Randy Savage, Kurt Angle, Bret Hart, Terry Funk, Big Van Vader, the Great Muta, Lex Luger, Sid Vicious, AJ Styles. I mean, is there a more impressive hitlist than that? Maybe there is, but there won't be many.

I was going to post a reply to Gelgarin's post about Thesz, but jmt pretty much summed up my thoughts in the other thread. But honestly, while Thesz may be a legend, well-respected and great at what he did, I think Sting was a better all-round performer, had better matches and feuds, and was just a lot more interesting and exciting to watch. Admittedly I'm not a Thesz expert, but I gave up enough time to research and watch as much of his stuff as I could.

Vote Sting!

 

[Checkmate]

I don't really want to debate it, as I'm sold as to why I'm voting. However, I'll clarify a bit.

1. The only thing I do not agree with Gelgarin is #11. I believe that Sting is indefinately the more popular of the two, if for no other reason than more recent exposure hitting a greater audience and the addition of the IWC as well. Thus, I do believe that Sting will have quite the following, as he deserves.

2. Sting is used to working a faster pace than Thesz. Obviously, they come from two different breeds in two different generations, which is the beauty of the matchup. It is the epitomy of 'Old School' vs 'New School'. Thus, Sting may be able to throw Thesz off his game a little, but the opposite is equally true.

However, on other points, I agree with all the arguements made above. I believe that Thesz, in all possibility, has all the tools to offset any advantage that Sting may or may not have.

One of the biggest aspects of this match to me was the generations of difference, and how Sting would know so many more moves that Thesz wouldn't. However, Thesz, in my opinion, is a master of just about every basic hold in the game. Sting cannot beat him in a contest without taking some risks, and in my mind, Thesz would capitalize on a mistake and win the match right there.

Thus, I'd ignore the legacy arguement and stick just to what each guy has in the ring. I'm not saying that Sting is a slouch, or that this wouldn't be an amazing matchup, but Sting would (eventually) fall victim to a hold that Thesz has more mastery of than he does.

Sting in a WCW ring is a force to be reckoned with in this tournament, but my vote says that Thesz could stop him. Just stating my case, take it however you wish.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

The fact is Lou Thesz is the face of his generation. The man revolutionized telling a story with his wrestling instead of his promos. The man wrestled until he was in his mid 70's...and he wrestled Masahiro Chono nonetheless. Chono. In his prime. What up?

Point is, in a real match, very few people stand a chance with Thesz. Brock Lesnar's one, Bret Hart's another, and that's about it. Hogan would be in trouble, as would Flair, and everybody else.

Thesz is a wrestling God and can hurt you legitimately. Sting's no slouch, but you have to put this in perspective. Thesz was a true wrestler who grappled, locked you up, and laid some thick shots on you. Sting is high flying, quick, and athletic...which makes him very little match for Thesz.

This match could have taken place in ANY of Sting's era's and I don't see how Thesz can lose.

Vote Thesz.

 

[Slyfox696]

Anyone (besides Gelgarin, I suppose) that votes for Lou Thesz is a mark for themselves, not professional wrestling. On what basis would Lou Thesz EVER be able to take down Sting? Because he could lay on a ring mat for 2 hours, boring people? I mean, by a show a of hands, how many people would actually rather watch a Lou Thesz match of epic boring proportions compared to one of the most charismatic and exciting wrestlers of all-time? Why would I want to watch two men lay in a ring for an hour, when I can watch the Steiner Brothers vs. Sting/Luger from Superbrawl? Why would I want to watch 3 hours of wristlocks, when I can watch arguably the biggest and most influential main-event match in the history of wrestling, between Sting and Hollywood Hogan? Why would I want to do that?

The only reason people will vote for Thesz is because they want to look like they are "smart" to the wrestling business because they know the name of a guy who bored people decades ago. Here, I'll play along. Theodore Roosevelt. See, I know the name of a guy from a long time ago too, and I'm quite certain he did something impressive in his life. Voting for Lou Thesz would be like voting for Teddy Roosevelt...you're voting on a name, not the actual quality of what he did.



Don't be a sucker. Vote for Sting over Teddy Roosevelt.

 

[klunderbunker]

I have to give credit to Gelgarin.

I have long since been a Sting fan. When I was a kid, I was a huge Hulkamaniac, and there was only one wrestler that could ever hold a candle to Hogan in my mind. That man was Sting. Show me one flaw in his game. One thing that Sting flat out cannot do. I've been watching him for over 20 years and I've never seen one. His striking, his speed, his power, his vertical leap that could rival Van Dam's, and he uses a submission hold to end matches. He's tall, he's charismatic, he can talk, he had a memorable look, he can wrestle for long periods of time, he's never really gotten stale and I could go on. If you were going to draw up the blueprint for the perfect wrestler, off the top of my head I can't think of someone that is a better place to go than Sting.

Despite all that, Gelgarin got me thinking. Is Sting really better than Thesz? Could he beat Thesz? For a little while, I honestly wasn't sure. Gelgarin's argument for Thesz is the best thought out, organized and well rounded argument that I've seen in any of our tournaments. He had me, a huge Sting fan believing for a minute that Thesz could beat one of my heroes. However, the Sting mark in me is too big. If this were the NWA, Thesz would go over. Sting was WCW's answer to Hulk Hogan. He's the golden boy of that company and I cannot see him losing here no matter what.

Vote is for Sting.

 

[DC24]

I'm voting Sting I never seen Thesz wrestle I won't lie and I don't feel a need to do it but I do know Sting is top 5 ever and I don't think he would lose its just that simple.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Anyone (besides Gelgarin, I suppose) that votes for Lou Thesz is a mark for themselves, not professional wrestling. On what basis would Lou Thesz EVER be able to take down Sting? Because he could lay on a ring mat for 2 hours, boring people? I mean, by a show a of hands, how many people would actually rather watch a Lou Thesz match of epic boring proportions compared to one of the most charismatic and exciting wrestlers of all-time? Why would I want to watch two men lay in a ring for an hour, when I can watch the Steiner Brothers vs. Sting/Luger from Superbrawl? Why would I want to watch 3 hours of wristlocks, when I can watch arguably the biggest and most influential main-event match in the history of wrestling, between Sting and Hollywood Hogan? Why would I want to do that?

The only reason people will vote for Thesz is because they want to look like they are "smart" to the wrestling business because they know the name of a guy who bored people decades ago. Here, I'll play along. Theodore Roosevelt. See, I know the name of a guy from a long time ago too, and I'm quite certain he did something impressive in his life. Voting for Lou Thesz would be like voting for Teddy Roosevelt...you're voting on a name, not the actual quality of what he did.



Don't be a sucker. Vote for Sting over Teddy Roosevelt.

Maybe I'm voting because I AM smarter than most. I mean, you really think that Sting can out wrestle Thesz? Can pin him? Really? There's no way that Sting can beat Thesz in an actual match.

And I'm a huge HUGE Sting mark. I had the rat tail, I painted my face for Halloween on more than three occasions. I love Sting. But this is Lou Thesz. This is the man who's highly regarded as one of the most decorative wrestlers to ever live. He can beat anyone on any given day. He's a legit tough guy who'd keep Sting on the ground and eventually submit him to one of the numerous holds he has.

To say we shouldn't vote for Thesz because we're not Gelgarin is bullshit. Sting will win, because he has a bigger fan base, but I'm sticking with old school, and taking Thesz in the most boring match of the tourney. But I'm a mark for myself...so I'll take the Lariat over everyone.

 

[Gelgarin]

After burning myself out with the opening post you'd be amazed at how little I want to debate this topic right now. I've said just about everything that I've got to say, so unless somebody wants to put forward something interesting then I'm going to remain pretty quiet.

That being said, Slyfox's assertion that Lou Thesz was boring has to be called out for being one of the most laughable statements that he's ever made. To adapt some simple logic taken from a John Cena thread, Lou Thesz drew, therefore he was entertaining. It's not difficult to understand.

As for the rest, I've already explained at great length why Thesz goes over here, whilst your only argument boils down to Thesz wrestling a long time ago and you wanting to vote Sting. Therefore you might not be in the best position to bitch at other people for their voting decisions.

 

[Tastycles]

I think I mut have only ever seen highlights of Thesz matches, because I don't find them boring. I do tend to hate long drawn out affairs, butthere was something about his matches that made for compelling viewing. Sting, I never really got. Honestly, there's nothing there for me. I mean he was cool in late WCW, I suppose, but I was watching wrestling with two people in their fifties and nobody at school watched WCW, so maybe I didn't have anyone to get excited by him with. Who knows.

In my sig throughout this tournament, I have had five guys. One is my favourite wrestler, the other four were guys in my top 20 or so that I felt should have had a chance of winning. Thesz falls into this latter category. Do I think Sting is good? Yes, fantastic. Do I personally enjoy his work? A little, but not as much as I like Thesz. I suppose I'm marking out for myself.

I've voted for kayfabe throughout, so I will again. Gelgarin has made the arguments that need to be made as to why Thesz should win this, and I am inclined to agree without saying anything else, but I'll just add my synopsis.

Sting was a top guy in a top company for about 10 years. He beat just about everyone who was in that company that was worthy of ring time with him, except maybe Goldberg, I can't remember if he beat him or not, to be honest.

Thesz was on top of the world in his day and beat everyone the world had to offer, and rarely if ever lost in his prime. I don't think he'd do well in a gimmick match, but apart from that, I don't see how somebody using headlocks wouldn't succeed today. Randy Orton does nothing but headlocks, and his career is doing swimmingly. I'm bored to tears by almost all pre 1980 American wrestlers, but in watching Thesz, I just felt I was watching excellence first hand.

So there, I'm voting Thesz because I like him more, and I think he'd win. I can't be arsed to argue for a case I'll definitely lose in votes, especially when the facts have been laid out so expertly by Gelgarin, and everything else is my opinion, so there.

Thesz wins, but he won't.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I respect Lou Thesz and I very much admit that he's one of the most legitimately skilled wrestlers in the history of the business. He may very well be the greatest world champion in pro wrestling history. Do I think he could beat Sting? Yes, though under specific circumstances.

If Sting were to attempt to outwrestle Thesz, go hold for hold and move for move, he'd quickly find himself outclassed and in a lot of trouble. Based on what I've seen out of Sting over his career, I feel that he'd be smart enough not to trade holds with the Thesz.

I certainly disagree that Thesz was in better physical condition than Sting. In his prime, Sting did pretty much have it all. He was a big guy, had a lot of power, he could move around that ring with ease, showed he could wrestle highly physical and even highly technical matches well past the 30 minute point, etc. Sting did have one thing that Thesz was sorely lacking in: Charisma. Sting had quite a bit of it. As skilled as Thesz was, if he were somehow transported in his prime into wrestling today, he'd be about as over as Koslov is. Koslov has legitimate skills, could legitimately take the head of anybody on the WWE roster off, but he's not over.

It'd be the same way with Thesz. In a shoot, Thesz could win, but in a Kayfabe match, not a chance.

 

[Shock]

Lou Thesz is one of the pioneers in the business, invented so many of the moves and holds you see in modern wrestling. Sting is a grand main event legend, who you must be great to beat. Honestly, Thesz is that great. Lou Thesz is definitely a wrestling legend and pioneer, moreso than Sting.

However, the same thing will happen in this match that did in the Danielson/Cena match, and is currently happening in the Dynamite/HHH match. Lou Thesz will lose because people haven't seen him wrestle as much as Sting. Lou Thesz will lose because people know Sting better. Lou Thesz will lose because he's from the black and white era, and people think he just can't beat Sting.

Regardless of the outcome I know will occur, I'm voting Thesz. Sting will sure give him a run for his money, but he still wins.

Vote Thesz.

 

[SavageTaker]

Thesz is a legend in the business and all but my vote is not going to be go towards him, my vote is on Sting.

STING WAS WCW, like mentioned already... he was WCW's answer to Hulk Hogan, he was the Golden Boy of that company. He is in his turf, not Thesz's turf.

Also remember that most of today's fans would consider Thesz the most boring wrestler ever, and that he wasn't entertaining to watch. But in the other hand Sting was exciting and charismatic. He could wrestle any type of wrestling. He could go from High-flying to technical to brawler, to any other style of wrestling, and then go back to High-Flying, and still be entertaining in all of those style's.

He also had an amazing amount of Strength, that astonished me and probably others. He did things that people thought that someone his size couldn't do, so what is going to stop him from doing those very same moves to Thesz.

Also remember that while it may not be a major factor on why Sting would win, it should still be mentioned. The WCW ring, he is used to it and instead of ropes being used, they used cables so if i am correct this will compliment his style of wrestling more than Thesz's style. Also, the ring is smaller and that might not help Thesz out to much and again liked i mentioned already Sting is used to the smaller ring, so that is an advantage for him, maybe not a big advantage but it is still and advantage none the less.

I salute Gelgarin for an incredible post, and the best one i have ever seen, but i will not vote Thesz over Sting, but i will also not deny him as a legend. And one last thing, i was checking out the hall of fame section in the WWE website and I noticed that Lou Thesz isn't in their hall of fame, and it just amazes me to not see him in there as he deserves it.

 

[Slyfox696]

After burning myself out with the opening post you'd be amazed at how little I want to debate this topic right now.

Not really. I understand the feeling quite well.

That being said, Slyfox's assertion that Lou Thesz was boring has to be called out for being one of the most laughable statements that he's ever made.

Nah, not really.

Just because wrestling fans 50 years ago thought guys lying around on a mat for excruciating long periods of time was fun, doesn't mean that it was. Lou Thesz is completely boring. Put Lou Thesz matches in todays ring (you know, like we're doing now), and he'd be booed out of the building, not only by fans like those of the WWE, but also from those of promotions like ROH.

Lou Thesz was boring. Sure, the people in his time enjoyed it, but then again, he wasn't on TV every week throughout the entire country.

As for the rest, I've already explained at great length why Thesz goes over here

Yes, I skimmed over the post everyone seems to be raving about. Here's the problem with your post. Everything you said completely ignores the difference of eras in which this match will take place. Let's review your main points:

1): Lou Thesz was a better legit wrestler.

Great...who cares? This match isn't a shootfighting/MMA match, it's a pro wrestling match. Throw this out because it's pointless.

2) Lou Thesz was a better kayfabe wrestler.

See this is where you struggle with the difference in times. First of all, and I'll mention this again later, the belt was kept on Thesz often times because he WAS a shootfighter, and the NWA didn't have to worry about rogue promoters trying to cheat the belt off of their champion. Second of all, Thesz wasn't seen on TV every week across the country, and again on PPV every month.

And because of BOTH of those things, Thesz was able to do what he did, without fans getting tired of his act, and without having to drop the belt. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case in wrestling TODAY. Thesz would NEVER do what he did in kayfabe then today because wrestling is completely changed. Furthermore, fans would get tired of Thesz's act.

Thus, trying to make the argument that Thesz was the better kayfabe wrestler because of who he beat and how long he held the title is completely misleading because it represents a completely different era.

3) Lou Thesz was a better technical wrestler

So was Dean Malenko, are we going to make a case for him now?

4) Lou Thesz was a faster wrestler.

Sting was a better athlete. Advantage negated. Once again, Thesz was a faster wrestler than the guys he went against 50 years ago. But, Sting...Sting is on another level. You want to talk about quick attacks, and show YouTube videos...well, I can do that too.

[youtube]hGUyGkXiIeA[/youtube]

And because of that video, you get this video.

[youtube]TlRue_F4sY8[/youtube]

What those videos show is that not only is Sting lightening fast with his strikes, he's so fast that an entire faction of nearly 10 guys wanted no part of him.

Please show me a video of Thesz kicking the collective asses of 10 guys. You know, so we can see how fast he is.

5)Lou Thesz was a stronger wrestler.

This is just complete and utter ridiculousness. Sting was a power lifter before he ever entered pro wrestling, and competed as a power lifter. Sting is the stronger man.

6)Sting was a batter striker. Or was he?

Whether he was or not is irrelevant because he most certainly is the more experienced striker. Once again, different eras.

7) Sting will have a crowd advantage. Who Cares?

I do. Because where there's a match between two guys who are similar in caliber, then the fans have the ability to pick you up and get the adrenaline rush. Have you not watched wrestling over the last 20 years?

8) Lou Thesz was a smarter wrestler.

And that doesn't matter when he's outclassed in every other area of today's pro wrestling.

9) Lou Thesz was better conditioned wrestler.

But he was in conditioned in a much different manner. Thesz didn't run around the ring for 20 minutes straight like wrestlers do today. There are differences in types of conditioning, and Sting is conditioned for wrestling today...Thesz was conditioned for wrestling 50 years ago, no doubt every bit as difficult, but requiring a much different type of conditioning.

For an example, compare conditioning between running a marathon and playing basketball. Those are two far different types of conditionings. Thesz ran marathons and this will be a basketball game...figuratively speaking.

10) Lou Thesz was a more important wrestler.

You can thank the differences in eras for that.

Of course, Sting was only the main-event of arguably the greatest and most significant match in wrestling history.

11) Lou Thesz was a more popular wrestler

Again, you're comparing different eras. Thesz wrestled in a time where wrestling was thought to be legitimate, so when people payed their money, they thought they were seeing an actual fight. And when you hear that Thesz would be on the card, and thought he really WAS the great wrestler that he was promoted to be, due to the factors I mentioned earlier, then people would tend to go see him.

With Sting, people knew wrestling was staged. So people who bought tickets and PPV to see him did so because he entertained them like no other. Put Lou Thesz in today's wrestling, and he wouldn't come close to being the draw he was then.

Sting was the more popular wrestler, because he made people show up to see him as he truly was, a great entertainer, and not what he lied to people about what he was.

 

[Slyfox696]

Maybe I'm voting because I AM smarter than most. I mean, you really think that Sting can out wrestle Thesz? Can pin him? Really? There's no way that Sting can beat Thesz in an actual match.

Says who? Athletes today are in far better physical condition than they were 50 years ago. Do they have help getting there, sure, but that doesn't change the fact it's true. Sting has wrestled, and beaten, guys in this business who DWARF Lou Thesz in size and popularity. Why can't Sting beat Thesz?

This isn't the 1950s. Wrestling is completely different than it was then, and Sting is far better equipped to wrestle now than Thesz was. Moves off the top rope, closed fist punching, leniency on weapons...all things which have changed pro wrestling since Thesz was on top.

To say we shouldn't vote for Thesz because we're not Gelgarin is bullshit.

That's not even remotely close to what I said.

What I said is that anyone who votes for Thesz does so to be a mark for themselves, because they think they know more about wrestling than they do, and want to feel good about it. I excluded Gelgarin because he's not a mark for himself, he's just a mark for Thesz.

Try to keep up.

Sting will win, because

Sting will win because he should, THAT'S why he will win.

However, the same thing will happen in this match that did in the Danielson/Cena match, and is currently happening in the Dynamite/HHH match. Lou Thesz will lose because people haven't seen him wrestle as much as Sting. Lou Thesz will lose because people know Sting better. Lou Thesz will lose because he's from the black and white era, and people think he just can't beat Sting.

Wrong. Thesz won't lose, Sting will win.

And Sting will win because he is better and more deserving of a win.

If Sting were to attempt to outwrestle Thesz, go hold for hold and move for move, he'd quickly find himself outclassed and in a lot of trouble.

And see, this is what people keep thinking, that Sting will lay on a ring mat for 60 minutes trying to outdo Thesz.

The simple fact of the matter is that wrestling isn't like that anymore, and there's not a chance in hell that Thesz could contain the super athlete that Sting was.

 

[NSL]

I keep seeing people say that Sting can't pin Thesz. What about making him tap? The Scorpion Deathlock is a great finisher, and I think that's what ends it here.

Or, after about 45 minutes, Thesz gets pissed the match isn't over, and gets DQ'd.

 

[X]

I can't believe Sting is currently ahead right now by 18 freakin' votes. Really guys? I mean, I love the Stinger as much as the next guy, but we're talkin' about LOU THESZ here. This guy could legitmately hurt you in a very, very bad way, and would.

In terms of pure wrestling talent and ability, Thesz takes the cake here easily for me. I (obviously) never had the chance to see a Thesz match live, but I've seen the Stinger live more then once and I'd have to say the Stinger is definately the more entertaining wrestler.

Really there's no need for me to go further into it, as Gelgaran explained it pitch-perfectly (and incredibly in depth man, kudos).