The Real Attitude Era, WCW???

[BananaHeel]

Except they didn't, really. The so-called "Revolution" was a ploy to make them sound cutting edge. 90 % of their roster were a bunch of hacks. Really, the only technical wrestlers, which is very much what I do now, and always have, enjoyed. They had Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, and Taz. That's about it. Maybe Raven. As for everyone else, they all needed props like cheese graters, chairs, profanity, and skanky women to get over. ECW was basically sleaze, with a few glimmers of wrestling.

WCW, on the other hand, offered technical wrestling, Puro, and entertainment. Thus, WCW in fact, had everything I wanted in the '90's when it came to wrestling. The fact still stands, WCW were the originators, and reason for "Attitude". Without WCW winning the ratings war, along with WWE's business spiraling downward, we never would have been subjected to "Attitude" or Russo's crap booking in the first place.

You're forgetting Mysterio and all other luchadors. And the technical wrestler 2 Cold Scorpio. AND Sabu. Yeah he used tables in barbed wire, but was an entertaining high flyer. Lest we forget....ROB VAN DAM. So figuratively by your estimation only 10% (Being Sandman, Mahoney, and Dreamer) can be classified as "hacks" unless you think Mick Foley is one....



And just because WCW "had everything you wanted in the 90s" does not mean WCW were the originators. Fact still stands ECW brought attitude first.

 

[Ty Burna]

Ah so let's take a look here. I'd have to agree WCW brought out the Attitude Era. Regardless of where the ideas came from for the Attitude Era, it's the fact that WCW pushed the WWF to the brink that caused them to go the Attitude route rather than continuing on the way they were. You can sit here and argue all day long that ECW was the original Attitude Era company, but the fact remains how many people know what the fuck ECW was at that point? Not many outside of the North East area. What did ECW really contribute to the 90's in regards to wrestling? Mostly talent that WCW and WWF took from, possibly some ideas, but the thing is, ECW's storylines and ideas were not marketing friendly except for a cult like status, and guess how far ECW really got, cult like status. True it was considered the third best/biggest promotion in America, but it didn't have it's employees being featured on TV and other media that wasn't a wrestling show.

See the thing is even if ECW came up with the ideas originally, WCW and WWF were capable of refining and using edgier programming to their advantage to make money and earn higher ratings. As far as the luchadors go, WCW prominently featured them in their programming far more then ECW ever hoped to do. But really those are both kind of moot points. The fact remains that WCW starting the NWO angle and dominating the WWF is what lead to the WWF's Attitude Era to begin. The end results of the Attitude Era beginning lead to the WWF's resurrection as the number one company, ECW ended up folding even though it had the "original" ideas as some here have said, and WCW ended up folding because it could not get away from the same angle that got them to the top during the Attitude Era.

WCW started the revolution of wrestling to a more mature product that could reach a national level. ECW was mostly a regional promotion during it's history and could never really elevate itself beyond that. Sure they had a TV deal with TNN, but it didn't last very long. The way I see it, WWF and WCW were able to use edgy and mature programming to a point where it was "tasteful", and that's using the term very loosely. ECW meanwhile jumped over the edge and never considered toning down their product some to a more media friendly style. Obviously the WWE suffered later consequences from the Attitude Era because of the stigma that it gained from their more mature programming, and thus why you see a return to the PG era that we have now. A little off topic but it's really a testament to why the WWE has survived so many troubling and difficult eras because of their ability to adapt and change in order to survive.

Did ECW have some good ideas? I'd agree, I was a fan of ECW then. However it was their inability to refine those ideas and use them in a marketable way to the casual fan that was their downfall. WCW started the Attitude Era because of that refinement and marketing capabilities for a more mature product and thus made the WWF follow suit and push it just further enough to gain back viewers.

 

[BananaHeel]

I was wondering when somebody would legitimately argue with me. Thanks Boston Legal.

I was joking with the "You Fucked Up" bit being in the Attitude Era. Obviously you weren't old enough to see the humor in the 90s.

And no barbwired matches have not been around for YEARS And I like how you took what a said about tables and refer to a match where nobody remembers unless they decided to look it up to argue with me....

And yeah I do believe The Attitude Era was about the sex, booze, and violence. WTF else could "Attitude" mean??? Shit you'll probably quote me on that too. WWE had Val Venis (sex) APA and *gasp* Stone Cold (booze) and WWF(E) was well known for its violence. The Attitude Era was all about being adult in content. So PLEASE tell me, what does The Attitude Era mean to you good sir?

 

[Slyfox696]

I was joking with the "You Fucked Up" bit being in the Attitude Era. Obviously you weren't old enough to see the humor in the 90s.

If you were making a joke, it wasn't funny. I like jokes...yours wasn't.

And no barbwired matches have not been around for YEARS

But hardcore, which is what you were representing, has been. But, FMV were doing barb wire matches before ECW was even founded

And I like how you took what a said about tables and refer to a match where nobody remembers unless they decided to look it up to argue with me....

Nobody remembers Flair vs. Steamboat at Wrestlewar, one of the most famous matches ever? No on remembers Flair vs. Funk I Quit, which is what that piledriver led to?

If they don't remember it, that's more of a testament to their lack of wrestling knowledge than it is a credit to ECW.

And yeah I do believe The Attitude Era was about the sex, booze, and violence.

Then you are wrong. Those were just the symptoms. It's like the common cold. When you sneeze, have a runny nose and cough, that isn't what isn't the diagnosis, it is just the symptoms. Like I said earlier, Attitude was about putting out a wrestling product with more of an edge, that pushed the envelope and challenged the traditional way of promoting wrestling.

And it wasn't until the WCW started doing it successfully that the WWF adopted the philosophy. Which means that the Attitude Era came from WCW, not ECW.

 

[The Dewbliners]

You're forgetting Mysterio and all other luchadors. And the technical wrestler 2 Cold Scorpio. AND Sabu. Yeah he used tables in barbed wire, but was an entertaining high flyer. Lest we forget....ROB VAN DAM. So figuratively by your estimation only 10% (Being Sandman, Mahoney, and Dreamer) can be classified as "hacks" unless you think Mick Foley is one....



And just because WCW "had everything you wanted in the 90s" does not mean WCW were the originators. Fact still stands ECW brought attitude first.

I didn't forget anyone. I just didn't include the luchadores, because they were mostly inconsequential. They weren't part of the "Revolution". Hell, they weren't even on a gentlemans agreement with Mr. Rubber Check himself, Paul Heyman.He brought them in for a few shows, that's it. Don't blindly drink Heymans Flavor-Aid. As for Scorpio, are you fuckin' kidding me?! The same Scorpio who got shit canned from WCW for not being able to cut the mustard? And Sabu, being classified as anything more than a glorified garbage wrestler is laughable. I'll give you Van Dam.

Just admit it, your romanticizing what amounts to a glorified indy fed. WCW were where "Attitude" started. I say this not only as a fan of WCW, but a mark for wrestling in general.

 

[THE SWAG]

as far as the luchadors they got more mainstream if you want to call it that, when they went to wcw, even though most of them went ecw first

 

[BananaHeel]

If you were making a joke, it wasn't funny. I like jokes...yours wasn't.

I'm sorry, the rest of the world thought The Fingerpoke Of Doom was a knee-slapper.

Nobody remembers Flair vs. Steamboat at Wrestlewar, one of the most famous matches ever? No on remembers Flair vs. Funk I Quit, which is what that piledriver led to?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If they don't remember it, that's more of a testament to their lack of wrestling knowledge than it is a credit to ECW.

No, it's their lack of interest due to WCW's shitty booking.

Then you are wrong. Those were just the symptoms. It's like the common cold. When you sneeze, have a runny nose and cough, that isn't what isn't the diagnosis, it is just the symptoms. Like I said earlier, Attitude was about putting out a wrestling product with more of an edge, that pushed the envelope and challenged the traditional way of promoting wrestling.

Please tell me how you can have an Attitude Era without "those symptoms"? This I have to hear...

And it wasn't until the WCW started doing it successfully that the WWF adopted the philosophy. Which means that the Attitude Era came from WCW, not ECW.[/QUOTE]

ECW thought of it first, WCW took it and made it threatening to WWF(E).

 

[BananaHeel]

I didn't forget anyone. I just didn't include the luchadores, because they were mostly inconsequential.

For them to be so "inconsequential", the people here remember them and argued whether or not they started in ECW or WCW...which was never disputed till tonight.


[QUOTE/]As for Scorpio, are you fuckin' kidding me?! The same Scorpio who got shit canned from WCW for not being able to cut the mustard?[/QUOTE]

Maybe if he lied down for Hogan like most of WCW did, or vise-versa, he'd be a star by now.

Just admit it, your romanticizing what amounts to a glorified indy fed. WCW were where "Attitude" started. I say this not only as a fan of WCW, but a mark for wrestling in general.[/QUOTE]

Romanticizing??? I'm sorry, I just like how one guy came up with a Different idea with hardly any money and make it famous (if not infamous). He didn't have Ted Turner's money like WCW did...

 

[TheOneBigWill]

No offense to anyone who blows loads over Steve Austin, D-X, and the so-called "Original Attitude Era", but WCW had Attitude back during the 80's (NWA) and people were just either not yet born to realize it, too naive to understand it, or playing blindly and ignored it.

Two words.. One Legacy. Four Horsemen.

No one can tell me they weren't Attitude personified. They did adult things, back during a time when Professional Wrestling wasn't even trying to break edgy barriers. Flair and Company went around with beautiful Women, smoking, drinking, and talking about being up all night in party atmospheres.

The Horsemen out of the ring where four (& five) adult males, who were the end-all, be-all to attitude. And inside the ring, it was every bit of the "attitude" someone like the n.W.o, or Steve Austin ever showed. They had gang beatdowns, leaving victims in a bloody mess, and did group attacks in the backstage and parking lot areas long before the n.W.o was even ever a wet dream in someone's head.

The Four Horsemen, in the NWA/WCW were the original Attitude Era, before people were ever smart enough to realize there was one.

 

[The Dewbliners]

Let's say for arguments sake, BananaHeel, the Luchadores did get their break in ECW, that doesn't make any difference. Like I said, they were inconsequential (sp) in the grand scheme of things. I already pointed it out, they were brought for a few shows, as a favor to Konan. They were (assumingly) paid per appearance. That is, if Paul E. did, in fact, pay them.

As for Scorpio, he didn't have to worry about laying down for Hogan, because he didn't even make it that far. He was, after all, gone before Cactus Jack.

And, Paul Heyman didn't do anything revolutionary, outside of ripping off Japanese garbage style, and fail to pay his talent. Furthermore, it wasn't even his concept. Tod Gordon was the owner of the company during the formative years, so if anybody should get the credit it's him. Not some deadbeat from New York.

 

[BananaHeel]

ECW stemmed from NWA too sir. But I like how you put it so clearly, and for that I am repping you.

So let's take a look at it from this angle:

NWA-First to show adulterated themes.
ECW-First to have adulterated themes on a weekly basis.
WCW-First to culminate lesser adulterated themes into profit.
WWF(E)-First to use adulterated themes to kill the competition.

...am I right?

 

[BananaHeel]

Let's say for arguments sake, BananaHeel, the Luchadores did get their break in ECW, that doesn't make any difference. Like I said, they were inconsequential (sp) in the grand scheme of things. I already pointed it out, they were brought for a few shows, as a favor to Konan. They were (assumingly) paid per appearance. That is, if Paul E. did, in fact, pay them.

As for Scorpio, he didn't have to worry about laying down for Hogan, because he didn't even make it that far. He was, after all, gone before Cactus Jack.

And, Paul Heyman didn't do anything revolutionary, outside of ripping off Japanese garbage style, and fail to pay his talent. Furthermore, it wasn't even his concept. Tod Gordon was the owner of the company during the formative years, so if anybody should get the credit it's him. Not some deadbeat from New York.

1. If we are talking about the same Scorpio anyways. Sounds like a very average Wrestler's name, esp if they worked for WCW.

2. Japanese Garbage style?? I'd love to see clips of that.

3. Tod Gordon.....yeah you may be right....so why are you blaming Heyman if Gordon was in control???

 

[The Gribbler]

CANT WE ALL GET ALONG?!

No I'm totally kidding, but I think that the Attitude Era was really a coming together of themes from all three of the major companies, We shouldn't be so concerned about who gets credit for starting the attitude era, I mean who cares?


All that really matters is who did it best, and the only company of the three still in business is the WWE so whether or not they did it first, they won the day and were clearly the best.

Just My Opinion

 

[Wrath]

If you weren't banned I'd green rep you. ECW wasn't even the first programming that used Attitude style of booking. If people remember NWA from 80's there were lots of bloody matches,real names and gimmicks instead of cartoonish ones and characters that has attitude(Like a poster above said 4 Horsemen) ECW just took it to next level by booking the show with more hardcore matches and having sex storylines.

My answer changes with how you ask it ? If you ask which promotion pushed WWF to change their style to Attitude then my answer is easily WCW. You can understand it without any knowledge and just by using your logic. Why would Vince would want to steal the style of a promotion that is making small amount of money. If WWE would've wanted to change it style to Attitude why did they wait until late 97 which was the year WCW had the total dominance. It's just like saying WWE stole ROH's style to compete with UFC. You may see the current booking of WWE like ROH which has more matches than ever before but it does not mean WWE needs a style of a promotion that makes small amount of money.

If your question is who first used the Attitude style of booking in North America it was again not ECW. NWA used that years earlier before ECW. Sorry to ECW fans but ECW really didn't have that much effect to wrestling business that people think it had. ECW created some great superstars that became huge stars,they were the first promotion that pushed hardcore style but they didn't have any effect for pushing WWE to Attitude. Attitude era is not even a similar style to ECW's booking. In ECW even though they had attitude the characters,matches and storylines were based on sex,hardcore and violence. In Attitude era it was the opposite. They had some storylines,matches and feuds that had sex,hardcore and violence but the main concept of the Attitude era was everyone had an attitude from Stone Cold to The Rock.

If your question is not any of them above and just who stole from who actually anyone really stole from anyone. WCW changed it's style to Attitude not because of ECW. I don't even remember a bloody hardcore match in WCW history. WCW had edgy booking because they wanted to offer a different product from WWE and it's not my comment it is Bischoff's words. WWF offered cartoonish and unrealistic storylines WCW wanted to present edgy and realistic storylines. They didn't even use swears,sex storylines and violence. So if someone tries to say WCW stole ECW's style they don't have any idea what they're talking about. As for ECW I don't have an idea if they stole their style from Japan. I don't have Japanese wrestling knowledge.

I answered different questions that're still discussed but one thing is for sure no one stole from no one. WWF changed it's style because they understood their style weren't working anymore,WCW changed it's style to offer a different product and ECW booked their shows in that style to showcase a different style of wrestling in North America(Hardcore,lucha libre etc.) So it's a stupid argument for me.

 

[samboisdead]

Alright i have read enough I had to post on here. First off ECW original...I call bs. How old are you guys anyways? WCW/NWA was doing barbwire matches, scaffold matches, dog collar chain matches, steel cage battle royals, war games, street fights and all your hardcore stuff before the term hardcore was even made up. ECW did help a bunch of rejects who would have never been stars become stars so I applaud them for that. The only thing i really saw ECW do that was original was allow wrestlers to cuss alot and women to strip and be lesbians. Wow good job..and yea I was an ECW fan so I am not hating. You guys just give ECW alot more credit than they deserve. Lets not forget your god of ECW Paul Heymann came from where? WCW... As far as the attitude era..hmm we can get real technical with it. If you can find them go back and look at Jim Cornettes old Smokey Mountain Wrestling shows. He created the gangstas New Jack and Mustafa Saeed on there, Later they were joined by Killer Kyle and I forget the other guys name, but anyway they made a pretty formidable attitude era type faction. They went on to feud with the Rock N Roll Express and there was tons of racial things done in the interviews and programs. Maybe ECW stole some ideas from wrestling past themselves huh? As far as being the first to display luchadors, i think we can go all the way back to World Class Championship Wrestling on that one. Anyway wrestling is all about the money and WCW was the first to really be profitable with the attitude style thing so they win enough said.

 

[Midnite Express 2009]

In my opinion, the whole quote/unquote "aittude" era "began" (I use that term loosely because honestly, hasn't there always been aittude in wrestling to some degree or another) when Shane Douglas did his famous shoot after defeating Too Cold Scorpio for the NWA title then basically throwing it down and "spitting" in the faces of all the former NWA champs at the same time? Now, say what you want, but to me, that's where it began to take form, so let's call that the embryo of sorts. As far as the WWF/E taking what WCW did and running with it, of course they did. However, I don't believe that WCW fully understood what they had in their hands. They were a dual personaility of sorts, which was fine. Like, WCW wanted to be edgier, but at the same time, put on top notch matches every week with the Crusierweights. But they only had basically one area to do that, the nWo. Meanwhile, Vince and co. saw that they had younger talent (which ironically was NOT on par with what WCW had talent-wise that is), and they decided to use EVERYTHING they had in their tank. WCW had Hogan, Savage, Sting, Luger, Giant and that was baiscally it. So WCW had bark---the WWF/E had bite.

 

[Ballistic83]

1st off I know ECW is really what motivated WWE to start the Attitude Era, that and needing to compete with the at the time Superior WCW. But...Really, The NWO was formed in August 1996. Austin 3:16 was born before the NWO, but didnt really kick into gear until the next year in 97. And logically I think we all know DX wouldn't of happened without the NWO and WWE needing to change it's image from the family friendly kiddy crap "oh that sounds familiar " So I guess im just saying, didn't WCW really start the Attitude Era and it was WWE that just simply did the same thing but super exceeded it?

A funny side note. There was an apparent ECW Fan at BATB 96 where Hogan turned heel loving every moment of it.

Then if he really was a DIE HARD ECW fan, why was he at a WCW event then if the so-called ECW fans were reballing against companys like WCW & the then WWF??

 

[C4Mahdee]

So I'm guessing everyone here seems to think that either ECW or WCW are responsible for the Attitude Era. I haven't really seen anyone giving credit to the WWE performers who took the material that was presented and made it into the biggest boom the industry had seen since the beginning of Hulkamania. Regardless of where the WWE got the most "ideas" or whether or not they ripped off another promotion, the people who were involved in the Attitude era, specifically Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Triple H and The Rock ( Foley was there too but his role was mainly to enhance these bigger names) all had to take these characters and make them draw. Which more often than not they did. The rue testament is that both World Championship Wrestling and Extreme Championship Wrestling (in its pure form) are no longer in business, I don't want to sound like a mark for Vince and the WWE but the truth is they are still around because no matter where Attitude's inspiration came from they managed to stick with it till the other two ran themselves into the ground. I'd say that is the truest answer I can give to all this. The WWE had the Real Attitude Era because they simply did it better.