The Dark Knight Rises

The Mark of Zur-En-Arrh

Tell me what's on ur so called mind
It's finally been announced. The title for Batman 3.

Wanna know what else? Nolan's confirmed Riddler WON'T be the villain.

And that they're currently casting the leading female character, most likely to go to Natalie Portman apparently.

Will she be a Vicki Vale/Silver St. Cloud type character, or could it be worse than that and they actually intend on basing an entire Batman film around fuckin' Catwoman or Talia Al Guhl? The crew at IGN seem pretty certain that the latter is more likely.......

You all know i've got thoughts on this, but i'll step back for a page or two and let you guys speak up first.

Discuss.
 
I was rather hoping it would be The Riddler. I suppose we'll wind up with The Penguin or Catwoman unless they decide to use one of the more modern villains instead. However, since I stopped reading comics in 1989 (my allowance wouldn't cover comic books and wrestling magazines anymore so I gave up comics), I don't really know much about the "modern" villains. Anything since 1989 would be modern to me but I realize it would probably seem really old to modern-day fans.
 
The title is so cheesy and it is only set to mirror "The Dark Knight"
they might as well call it "The Caped Crusader" as that is the only name that is worse.

As for The Riddler. It is very dissapointing but this narrows down the options so I guess it is good.

1. Nolan has already said Mr. Freeze will not be a Villan
2. He also stated that Two-Face is dead and he doesnt feel right about making another joker
3. The Batman Begins villans are irrelevant
4. And now Riddler is off the list despite that he was the best choice

I would love to see the Penguin or Catwoman but I would hate to see them together again as that has been done before.

Thalia Al Ghul is an option but a very boring charictor

And what about Harley Quinn
she has never been in a Live Action Batman Movie and she could be taking revenge on batman on behaf of the joker while joker doesnt need to even be in the movie

I dought they could make Man-Bat work
 
Batman screenwriters David Goyer and Jonah Nolan have responded to claims that the baddies in Batman 3 will be Catwoman and The Penguin by saying that the baddies in Batman 3 definitely won’t be Catwoman and The Penguin. - Hecklerspray.com

Not a well known site (first one I found what I was looking for) but it IS a quote and they ARE the screenwriters. So I'll assume they know what they're talking about. I like the rest of you are looking forward to the movie and I really don't know what to expect villain-wise. I'm content to just sit back and wait.
 
And what about Harley Quinn
she has never been in a Live Action Batman Movie and she could be taking revenge on batman on behaf of the joker while joker doesnt need to even be in the movie
I dought they could make Man-Bat work

Oh thank you! I was getting very very frightened realizing that all the good villians weren't options. Then you said Harley Quinn and now I can breathe a little. I certainly hope that's that direction they're heading, and all other routes have been done before multiple times AND would likely turn other pathetic. If they did a Harley Quinn, even if it won't be as good as Joker, it would likely salvage the movie. Natalie Portman is very good at playing psychological characters, though I've never seen her as a villain.

I'm here to formally announce that I- Xemnas The Arrogant Militant Atheist- Am Praying to God that this is the route they will take as it is the only non-dissapointing route to take.
 
I'm here to formally announce that I- Xemnas The Arrogant Militant Atheist- Am Praying to God that this is the route they will take as it is the only non-dissapointing route to take.

The only non-disappointing route?!?, please Batman has a whole host of great villains for them to chose from

-Black Mask
-Deadshot
-Firefly
-Dr. Hugo Strange
-Hush
-Mr. Zsasz
-Dr. Simon Hurt

All of which could make for great and realistic villains, plus lets not forgot all the mob bosses and organized crime characters as well, Nolan has give us 2 amazing Batman films I have no doubts that no matter who is picked as his next foe, that Nolan will be able to make it work and give us another great bat-flick
 
And what about Harley Quinn
she has never been in a Live Action Batman Movie and she could be taking revenge on batman on behaf of the joker while joker doesnt need to even be in the movie

I would like to elaborate on my idea
In most interperatations of Harley Quinn in the comics and the animated TV show she was a psychiatrist at Arkham Asylam who was so influenced by the joker that she turned into a criminal and usually was one of his henchmen. The way to tweak this is very simple during The Dark Knight Joker was trying to prove that anyone could me turned insane and he made an example out of Harvey Dent-Two Face he could have made a Gotham City citizen insane enough to want to follow in his footsteps

Another idea is to have Harley Quinn actually be Ratchel Dawes who went insane at the same time Harvey Dent did but actually survived the explotion when they thought she died. Of coarse this could be a problem if they wanted Portman to play the villan but she could still play Vikki Vale.
Also this idea would stray away from the comics, but you cant always be exact can you?
 
Oh thank you! I was getting very very frightened realizing that all the good villians weren't options. Then you said Harley Quinn and now I can breathe a little. I certainly hope that's that direction they're heading, and all other routes have been done before multiple times AND would likely turn other pathetic. If they did a Harley Quinn, even if it won't be as good as Joker, it would likely salvage the movie. Natalie Portman is very good at playing psychological characters, though I've never seen her as a villain.

I'm here to formally announce that I- Xemnas The Arrogant Militant Atheist- Am Praying to God that this is the route they will take as it is the only non-dissapointing route to take.

I'm formally announcing that I agree with The Superior Of the Inbetween.

No penguin,no catwomen,no riddler. I don't see Two-face or The Joker making triumphant returns.All the big names are out with the exception of Harley.Than again, I never thought they would use Ra's al ghul and he worked out well. It would be intresting to see Natalie Portman play Harley Quinn (or any actress for that matter)

I'm really hoping they don't drop the ball with this movie. I'm still recovering from the movie Batman and Robin.:banghead:
 
I have a feeling that the movie will center more around the police's manhunt for Batman, as Batman is still doing everything he can to protect Gotham, this would lead me to beleive that whatever villain they chose, they'll have to be one that the police and citizens of Gotham can easily confuse for Batman, which is why I would love to see Black Mask, Hush, or Dr. Hurt (this one could be the trickiest one to pull off however) as the main protagonist, all three could have the capabilities to make their deeds look like the doings of Batman

I could also see Deadshot and/or Firefly being brought in as secondary villains however I feel a secondary villain isn't really needed
 
justinsayne said:
or Dr. Hurt (this one could be the trickiest one to pull off however)

They wouldn't use Hurt. Grant Morrisson explained that Dr. Hurt is actually supposed to represent the Devil, and his character has since been revised in 'The Return Of Bruce Wayne' to be a Devil Worshipper who obtained eternal youth.

Plus his character first appeared while Batman was working alongside the GCPD for military research, and what with how TDK ended, that's not really do-able in the third film.

And since they never tried to explore Ra's Al Guhl's agelessness in 'Begins', i doubt they'd do it for Hurt.

Black Mask would be an excellent idea though. If they made the third film more like Batman: War Games, then THAT would be an awesome film.

As much as i love Harley, i would never ever want to see her as the lead villain in a Batman film.
 
Harley Quinn is an obvious choice. Before they rulled out the riddler, I still would of wanted harley quinn to be the main villan. She just seems like she would fit perfectly into the Dark Mob-rules world of Nolan's batman.

But that name is such garbage. I makes it sound like a fucking generic action prequal(even though its a sequal). It just makes me hate life.
 
I like the title. It signifies the dawn of hope and justice returning to Gotham after the dark night of corruption and terror of the previous film. It also alludes to Batman's presumed redemption so I have no problem with the title. I also would've been happy with calling it The Caped Crusader.
 
I still think "Gotham" or at least "Gotham City" would have been a better title to a Batman movie, but I digress.

I love Harley Quinn. I can't help it. Having her around would:

A. Be a nice twist with all of the male villains previously used (save Catwoman and Ivy)
B. A good replacement character for what was The Joker
C. Be an even better idea because she's had no airtime aside from being animated.

I am a huge fan of Nolan using comic book characters and not already established movie villains. I am glad The Riddler isn't making an appearance because they would've tried to make him realistic with a hacker-like character, and that doesn't fit the eccentric one that on the other side of the quarter would've looked like a Joker wannabee.

So as far as main antagonists go, Hush is my pick. It would fit nicely with what is going on with Batman on the run, with no friends. Though Bruce Wayne does and one of them was Hush himself. Perfect. Another one I could see used is Penguin, but like I said I'm not a fan of already used villains. Spot is open with Dent's death though...

I'll be seeing this movie regardless of movie title or villain though. Best believe that.
 
Ok, so i think it's time we had some debate thrown into this thread now.

To everyone who's said Harley Quinn should be one of the villains, i have GOT to ask, how can you make a captivating 2 hour action film with a career sidekick as the main villain?

In neither the comics or the cartoon, has Harley ever shown the aptitude or genius to devise a plan that comes anywhere near the level of those dreamt up by Joker, Two-Face or Riddler.

She is also not the type to hold an entire city to ransom or threaten record number of lives in order to achieve her goals.

Harley is a fun loving, lunatic who embraces unpredictability and mahem. She isn't a sadistic torturer or power mad despot or horribly mutated revenge freak like everyone else in Bat's Rogue Gallery, and if they DID use Quinn, in any of the forms that i've just listed, you wouldn't be watching Harley Quinn at all, you'd just be watching someone in the outfit, and using the name and the Joker obsession gimmick. Those would be the only real elements of the Harley Quinn character they actually be using.

If she's not being treated like dirt and slapped around by Joker, or she's not robbing banks with her pet hyenas, then it's not Harley Quinn.

Since there definitley won't be a Joker in this movie, one of the major aspects of her character will never be explored in the film, and all it'll do is aggravate Harley Quinn fans more than anything.

Don't get me wrong, i love Harley. She's got to be my favourite female character ever, and i'd probably sell my soul to make her real, but i still wouldn't go into a Batman film, knowing Harley Quinn to be the main villain, and expect it to actually be good.

'The Dark Knight Rises' is a title that suggests Bruce is going to reclaim his spot as Gotham's guardian having saved the city from some eternally bleak future, something that Harley Quinn's character couldn't cause, and wouldn;t even attempt to do anyway, because it's not in her nature.

Now someone is going to say 'it doesn't have to follow the comics to the letter, there's room for creative control so they can use her however they want!' and of course you'd be right, but consider this:-

-In Batman Begins, Ra's Al Guhl leads an international society of assassins, and hides his true identity, having lived for centuries JUST LIKE in the comics (ok, they didn't explore the immortality side of it, but it was hinted at)

- In BB, Scarecrow is hired by Ra's to help him poison Gotham's river with fear chemicals. Crane thinks they're going to hold Gotham ransom, Ra's knows otherwise. So Scarecrow had the same MO he has in the comics. But more than that, he was hired by a bigger villain to do their dirty work, and was subsequently deceived, which ALSO happens to the Scarecrow on a regular basis in the comics. Big bosses like Penguin and Joker have used him for his fear gas, and then fucked him over at the last hurdle on multiple occassions.

- In TDK, the Joker causes absolute havoc and deals death just about everywhere he goes, even allowing himself to get caught by the GCPD, in order to further his real plans, which no one can ever work out other than him.

There's two lines from the comics that describe the Joker very well, and one of them is actually used IN the film.

"Joker's plans make sense to him and him alone"

"Nothing is ever that simple with the Joker"

So again, despite maybe not being as camp and flamboyant as we expect from the Joker, the main core of his character remains unchanged in TDK.

- In the comics, Harvey Dent is portrayed as an overworked, stressed out DA who's getting increasingly more and more violent and reckless as his career goes on. He eventually becomes disfigured and becomes Two-Face, a man who cannot make any decision without having to flip his two headed coin first.

The circumstances of Dent's character DID change in the film, but once he became Two-Face, it was comic book Two Face 'til the very last scene.

So based on that, why would they suddenly give Harley Quinn's character a complete overhaul and revamp, when they've stuck so closely to the source material for every villain previously?

And SAMCRO, i really don't think Hush is going to be used either. Hush's character debuted by manipulating the entire Rogues Gallery simultaneously with Riddler's help. There is no Rogues Gallery in Nolan's films, and they'd be forced to create an entirely independent story for his character.

Now that's not impossible, but considering that a lot of comic book fans DIDN'T enjoy Hush's actual debut in the comics (which i found ridiculous, i thought it was an excellent story arc), i doubt Nolan and co. could come up with anything better.

And again, and of course i'm spitballin' here because i don't know, Hush exists to kill Bruce Wayne. Thomas Elliot has no interest in Gotham, only killing Wayne, and like i said earlier, 'The Dark Knight Rises' sounds like 'save Gotham from a nuclear weapon' kinda film title, as opposed to 'avoid being murdered by my childhood friend' kinda title.

That's why i still cling to the idea that Black Mask should eb the main villain. The guy actually manages to take over the entire city in the comics by killing two people. He kills two individuals (and some random civillians along the way for the pure hell of it) and becomes Gotham's undisputed Crime Lord, and apart from his face looking like a black skull, he is a straight up, normal human being, perfect for Nolan's 'No Meta-humans' universe.

Now doesn't that sound like someone that might be a better idea for a movie villain, than Harley Quinn?
 
Ok, so i think it's time we had some debate thrown into this thread now.

To everyone who's said Harley Quinn should be one of the villains, i have GOT to ask, how can you make a captivating 2 hour action film with a career sidekick as the main villain?

In neither the comics or the cartoon, has Harley ever shown the aptitude or genius to devise a plan that comes anywhere near the level of those dreamt up by Joker, Two-Face or Riddler.

My answer to this is that I think that the next film is going to be more psychlogical than "The Dark Knight" (which was pretty psychological to begin with). It will probably be about the fallout from the last movie and the affects of the Joker and Harvey Dent.This is why I think that Harley would fit so well. She is a direct result of the Joker. She became Harley because she was obssesed with him. How often do psychopaths in real life become influenced by the actions of another psychopath? This would fit so well .

As for Black Mask, it could be done and well. Some could argue that his face would present a problem in the realistic settings of Nolan's franchise, but than again, Ras Al Ghul didn't do magic in the films so they could get around in having Black Mask without him having,er, a black face...

I still really hope Harley gets in though. As stated earlier, she has never had a big role in anything except "Arkham Asylum".Which she was awesome in.
 
Going from what Noir X said, the true point is that this film is the follow up to The Dark Knight, but it contradicts where Harley would fit into the film itself. Let's look at the events that were open at the end of TDK:

1. Batman takes the fall for Harvey Dent so his efforts could not be undone, that being all the criminals who were put away would not be released.

2. The Mafia took a huge blow in that majority of lower ranks were arrested, the heads wiped out by the Joker along with their money being burnt.

3. Only one person actively knows who Batman is in real life (Coleman Reece) and only 5 people (that I can think of) know of what Dent did.

These are the key points here, the situation as it stands is that because Batman is an outcast, Gotham City is open for taken over by anyone who isn't linked to the Mafia that was taken out during TDK. There are still a number of villains that are Mafia based (Penguin for example and other mob families) who could easily take over Gotham since they know that while Batman is dangerous because they believed he killed people, they have the protection of the fact that the GCPD has Batman as their priority person to capture. Now the element of those who know about what happened with Dent and who Batman is, effectively, this was a concluded story, not to mention that I hardly believe anyone would believe them, unless they used Ramirez again as a bargaining tool to get the real info about Harvey causing more chaos.

See, already, this is beyond anything Harley Quinn can do, not to mention she would not be able to fit into this situation, to add her in is just a cash cow/unrequired plot device to make things complicated which Nolan doesn't like doing. However, it leaves it very much open to a Catwoman appearance due to the fact that she could fit into a secondary story plot, that being, taking advantage of the situation ie stealing precious jewels, etc. only for Batman to show up again to stop her, but again, this would be a secondary plot. As Mark said, you need someone big who could relish in this situation, an open city for a take over, maybe a struggle for power, fact is that Gotham is screwed and they will need Batman to save it while clearing his name, a strong villain is needed and Black Mask is a good selection, among others.

Now I would like to see come up with a VALID reason for why Harley Quinn needs to be involved, consider the plot devices in place that will be active going into this film and remove the fact that the Joker was in the last film, his part is done. If you can't suggest outside of the Joker tie in, you have proven to yourself that there's no way to fit Harley into this film.
 
I've been saying since the last film that they shouldn't have killed off Dent, because this film is so perfectly set up for Batman Vs The Authorities (headed by a "reformed" Dent).
Seeing as that's no longer an option, you have to look at the other realities of where Gotham was at the end of The Dark Knight and essentially there would be a power vacuum with the mob in disarray. In my mind that is the perfect situation for Black Mask. Failing that, if you could take someone like Kraven the Hunter from Spiderman, that would also work very well.

And for what it's worth, I don't like the title. It's lazy to only add 1 word onto the previous film.
 
Going from what Noir X said, the true point is that this film is the follow up to The Dark Knight, but it contradicts where Harley would fit into the film itself. Let's look at the events that were open at the end of TDK:

1. Batman takes the fall for Harvey Dent so his efforts could not be undone, that being all the criminals who were put away would not be released.

2. The Mafia took a huge blow in that majority of lower ranks were arrested, the heads wiped out by the Joker along with their money being burnt.

3. Only one person actively knows who Batman is in real life (Coleman Reece) and only 5 people (that I can think of) know of what Dent did.

These are the key points here, the situation as it stands is that because Batman is an outcast, Gotham City is open for taken over by anyone who isn't linked to the Mafia that was taken out during TDK. There are still a number of villains that are Mafia based (Penguin for example and other mob families) who could easily take over Gotham since they know that while Batman is dangerous because they believed he killed people, they have the protection of the fact that the GCPD has Batman as their priority person to capture. Now the element of those who know about what happened with Dent and who Batman is, effectively, this was a concluded story, not to mention that I hardly believe anyone would believe them, unless they used Ramirez again as a bargaining tool to get the real info about Harvey causing more chaos.

See, already, this is beyond anything Harley Quinn can do, not to mention she would not be able to fit into this situation, to add her in is just a cash cow/unrequired plot device to make things complicated which Nolan doesn't like doing. However, it leaves it very much open to a Catwoman appearance due to the fact that she could fit into a secondary story plot, that being, taking advantage of the situation ie stealing precious jewels, etc. only for Batman to show up again to stop her, but again, this would be a secondary plot. As Mark said, you need someone big who could relish in this situation, an open city for a take over, maybe a struggle for power, fact is that Gotham is screwed and they will need Batman to save it while clearing his name, a strong villain is needed and Black Mask is a good selection, among others.

Now I would like to see come up with a VALID reason for why Harley Quinn needs to be involved, consider the plot devices in place that will be active going into this film and remove the fact that the Joker was in the last film, his part is done. If you can't suggest outside of the Joker tie in, you have proven to yourself that there's no way to fit Harley into this film.


There is no possible way for Harley to be involved without a Joker tie-in due to the simple fact that her character is a tie-in .It's also worth noting that almost no character needs to be involved for the plot to move forward. The main plot , going off of the ending of "The Dark Knight" and the title of the next film ,will be Batman's struggle with the entire city against him.

All that being said, it all depends on how much from the last movie is being brought up in the film. Obviously the entire Two-face angle/Batman going "rogue" story will manifest itself, but will the Joker's actions be focused on or just the effects he had on Dent? If they decide to focus on the city recovering from all the shit Joker put them through, than that would be where Harley would come in. Joker's final monologue spoke of how he set out to prove that all it takes is a few key triggers and anyone could be driven to insanity, "Madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push". What better way to elaborate on that than to have an ordinary citizen be driven to maddness over the Joker's ideals, to the point of idolizing him.Plot wise, I'm not sure how she would fit in, but I also would have never thought going into TDK that the Joker would end up in the story because he was robbing mob banks.That came out of complete left field.Any character is game by that logic.

The entire mob situation I'm lost on though. I'm not sure whether they are going to focus on the criminal under-world attempting to re-build itself, or if someone is just going to swoop in and take the entire city over, or just ignore it all together. I do like the idea though of Black Mask or a similar type of character taking advantage of the entire situation to take it all for them-selves.

I'm just bringing up ideas though, and either way I know that Nolan is going to deliver an awesome film. Whether or not Harley is involved , I'm still going to enjoy the movie the same.
 
Noir X said:
What better way to elaborate on that than to have an ordinary citizen be driven to maddness over the Joker's ideals, to the point of idolizing him.

In order to do that effectively, you'd actually need the Joker to be in the film, at least once or twice, otherwise people would never buy into the idea that she'd fallen in love with him, because you'd never see anything happening between the two.

Plus Nolan has stated recently that the Joker will NOT appear in any way shape or form in the next film.

Nolan also said that Tom Hardy has definitely been cast, but wouldn't give any details on what role he was playing, or the overall significance of his role in the film.

This could mean that he's a villain, or an associate of Bruce's or even just the new Mayor with a hard on for arresting vigilantes, who knows? But it's another opportunity for us to speculate.

It's also been strongly suggested that Hugo Strange will end up being the central villain, based on the fact that:-

A) He is one of Batman's earliest re-occurring villains from the early comics.
B) One of his first major story arcs involved him working for the GCPD to apprehend Batman.
C) That same story arc featured Catwoman, and there's also been word that actresses such as Natalie Portman have been auditioning for the film.
D) Strange's character is one that can take an extremely dark and psychotic shift half way through the film, much like his character does in the books, going from hunting Batman, to wanting to become Batman by murdering him.

So, based on what we know now, what do you think?

And based on what is still rumour, mixed in with what we know, what do you think?
 

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