Submission Rebirth

kylexxx

Occasional Pre-Show
Is it just me or does the WWE seem to be focusing on submission wrestling again. The majority of the matches on the JD card seemed to have a lot of submission spots, from what I read, and the recent matches between nattie and michelle seem to have brought submission wrestling to the womens division, plus hbk and hhh bringing back the crossface and the overall usage of submissions is at its highest point in rrecent memory, hell even jbl locked in a couple of submissions. Maybe the return of the anaconda vise, fingers crossed.....
Is this a good move for the WWE? I think so....
 
I think when you can expand your horizons even by a little bit is always a good thing. The Anaconda Vice was actually used also, sadly enough as a rest hold, but it was there. With Shawn using that leg lock a few months back, along with the crossface and the heel hook that Michelle used on Friday night, I have high hopes for this part of the WWE coming out again. There used to be some great submission moves, and it looks like they're going back to that again, which I am all for.
 
I think with the recent rise of MMA and the submission holds in that sport, WWE has decided to try to suck more viewers in by increasing the amount of submission holds used. Submission holds have been pretty much dormant in the WWE for years now. A rare few like Chris Benoit and Chris Jericho would use them, but they've been a thing of the past for the most part. And with new blood coming in, and older wrestlers starting to use submissions, they seem to be on the rise again. I've always enjoyed submission holds, as long as they fit in with the match. All I know is that the recent use of submission holds has sparked my interest, and I hope to see more in the future.
 
Is it just me or does the WWE seem to be focusing on submission wrestling again.

I wouldn't say submission wrestling, but submission moves definately.

The majority of the matches on the JD card seemed to have a lot of submission spots,

Not sure, didn't see it but I heard there were some matches there though.

from what I read, and the recent matches between nattie and michelle seem to have brought submission wrestling to the womens division,

The sharpshooter Nattie uses is awesome, not sure why Michelle has a leg lock though.

plus hbk and hhh bringing back the crossface

See, I know Trips uses the Crossface, but I haven't seem HBK use it at all, what am I missing lol.

and the overall usage of submissions is at its highest point in rrecent memory,

Agreed. I don't usual see many as well.

hell even jbl locked in a couple of submissions.

That, for one thing is a shock to me lol.

Maybe the return of the anaconda vise, fingers crossed.....

Hope not, nothing speical about the vice. Maybe only if he uses it against people he can't pick up.

Is this a good move for the WWE? I think so....

Definately a good move by the WWE, I would say it would bring an outside interest in for one thing.
 
I think a return to more submission based moves can be a mixed bag. On one side, I enjoy technical matches and the different dynamic they bring rather than brawls or spot filled matches. However, they do have a tendancy to be used more as rest holds for a while, and a long sleeper hold is just plain boring. I think if they bring in more 'realistic' moves that you'd think would genuinely hurt, and have them locked on for a short time it would work well for WWE, but long drawn out matches aren't the way to go, especially when it would seem the average wrestling fan has the attention span of a 5 year old with ADHD.
 
The Only Submission move ive seen regularly is the cross face, its being used by every wrestler on the roster, Ive seen the move being used 20 times in one month being utilised by guys such as Shawn Michaels, Triple H, The Grat Khali (Yes i said it), the issue i have with this move is that its a testimant to the great Chris Benoit and the whole roster is using it like its a drop toe hold i hate the idea of it, its losing its appeal, and I for one would rather see matches performed without it.

The idea of submission wrestling being re-utilized in general is great, as long as the wrestlers involved dont make the holds look weak, for example when Khali used the cross face on big show at Backlash, It didnt look like he could have pulled it off, he may as well should of applied the canadain destroyer on show and have a chance at having that look legit then the cross face

Khali +submission wrestling = Crap IMO
 
The Only Submission move ive seen regularly is the cross face, its being used by every wrestler on the roster, Ive seen the move being used 20 times in one month being utilised by guys such as Shawn Michaels, Triple H, The Grat Khali (Yes i said it), the issue i have with this move is that its a testimant to the great Chris Benoit and the whole roster is using it like its a drop toe hold i hate the idea of it, its losing its appeal, and I for one would rather see matches performed without it.

I couldn't agree with you more. Chris Benoit was one of the greatest of all time and to go along with that he had one of the greatest submission finishers of all time yet individuals such as Michaels, Triple H and The Great Khali are making it look extremely weak. When Chris Benoit locked in the Crossface the fans would always rise to their feet as 95% of the time the wrestler would tap out but now wrestlers are using it with very little ring psychology. The whole purpose of the Crossface was to lock it on out of nowhere which is being done but Chris wouldn't use it in the form of an armbar where it would slow down the match so he could gain control and take a breather. When he locked in The Crossface you knew the end was near.

I know there are many who love seeing the Crossface still being used as it proves the WWE is acknowledging Benoit but I would rather it be done properly so therefore I wish they would've left it alone.
 
I couldn't agree with you more. Chris Benoit was one of the greatest of all time and to go along with that he had one of the greatest submission finishers of all time yet individuals such as Michaels, Triple H and The Great Khali are making it look extremely weak. When Chris Benoit locked in the Crossface the fans would always rise to their feet as 95% of the time the wrestler would tap out but now wrestlers are using it with very little ring psychology. The whole purpose of the Crossface was to lock it on out of nowhere which is being done but Chris wouldn't use it in the form of an armbar where it would slow down the match so he could gain control and take a breather. When he locked in The Crossface you knew the end was near.

I know there are many who love seeing the Crossface still being used as it proves the WWE is acknowledging Benoit but I would rather it be done properly so therefore I wish they would've left it alone.


Call me crazy but somethin i'd LOVE to see happen would be MVP gettin the crossface as a finisher as he's been trained by Benoit. And i agree i cant stand pretty much EVERY wrestler using it it makes all them years of Benoit's crossface look like nothing.

Seein Nattie Neidhart goin with the ol sharpshooter is just AWESOME! Hart family legacy alright, bringin major strength into the women's division, she looks like she could resurect it by herself!

Taker's of course, very unique...but apparently *banned* now storyline wise or watever the hell is going on lol

EDIT: Khali... just ditch the submission moves please. He's boring enough as it is, we dont need to see some half-assed attempt at a submission move.
 
There's one thing I don't understand...why do people complain so much that Khali can't wrestle, and is a waste of space, yet whenever he shows the slightest sign of a technical wrestling move, he's being destroyed for trying? Part of submission wrestling is having the power to lock the hold on, so why is it so unreasonable for Khali to use a submission hold.

As far as the crossface goes, I don't think passing it around as a common move is such a good idea. there are a lot more moves around that could be spread around to use among the roster. The likes of a torture rack would work well with Khali.
Personally, I'd like to see someone take on the Texas Cloverleaf as a submission move because it was a very effective move when Dean Malenko used it in WWE.
 
There's one thing I don't understand...why do people complain so much that Khali can't wrestle, and is a waste of space, yet whenever he shows the slightest sign of a technical wrestling move, he's being destroyed for trying? Part of submission wrestling is having the power to lock the hold on, so why is it so unreasonable for Khali to use a submission hold.

As far as the crossface goes, I don't think passing it around as a common move is such a good idea. there are a lot more moves around that could be spread around to use among the roster. The likes of a torture rack would work well with Khali.
Personally, I'd like to see someone take on the Texas Cloverleaf as a submission move because it was a very effective move when Dean Malenko used it in WWE.

The Problem with Khali using submission wrestling is not the fact that hes using the hold, its how hes applying the hold, Like you polly i would get Khali to use moves like the torture Rack as long as he can perform those moves properly, when he locked in the cross face on show, it didnt look believable, because he wasn't applying the hold properly which made him and the move look like a complete utter nonsense, he has a translator and has coaches who could teach him how to do it, hell the one guy on the roster (Dean Melinko) who invented the move is there to teach him how to apply it, thats my issue, not that Khali is using a technical move is the fact that if he is going to attempt to do that he should at least do it properly IMO
 
It wasn't your post I was going after in that sense DJ. But I know what you mean. The only possible defence is Big Show's size...not a good one I know, but it would make it a hard move to perform.
What I don't understand is why the likes of the Divas are given so much leeway because 'they're just learning' and are praised for trying new things (Michelle McCool making people tap, Candice not breaking her clavicle in a match), but when Khali, who has no real need to learn submission moves when he's huge enough to get by on power, tries to improve, he gets destroyed for trying to improve by people who are actually calling for him to improve.
But yes, if he's going to use holds which I see know reason why he shouldn't, they should look realistic. But probs to the guy for trying at least
 
I think it's great to see submissions being used more often again. Ever since WWE lost Kurt Angle and Benoit, there have barely been any good use of submissions.

Undertaker has brought a lot of MMA style submissions to the WWE, such as Triangle Choke and Gogoplata. However, I don't think those moves suit his gimmick. It's a little ridiculous seeing him start every match in a boxing stance. What is he supposed to be, an undead UFC guy? The Gogoplata is more suited for a heel, especially with that blood effect going on. IMO, the move is more suited for Edge who is arguably the best heel in the business.

It's good to see people using the Crossface because it shows that WWE acknowledges Benoit instead of trying to erase him from their history. However, I agree that using the Crossface like a generic submission devalues it. When Benoit locked the Crossface, he was going for the kill, not a breather.

It's great to see submissions being used in the Women's division. I don't recall any recent submission victories in the Women's division since Jazz and her single leg boston crab.
 
It wasn't your post I was going after in that sense DJ. But I know what you mean. The only possible defence is Big Show's size...not a good one I know, but it would make it a hard move to perform.
What I don't understand is why the likes of the Divas are given so much leeway because 'they're just learning' and are praised for trying new things (Michelle McCool making people tap, Candice not breaking her clavicle in a match), but when Khali, who has no real need to learn submission moves when he's huge enough to get by on power, tries to improve, he gets destroyed for trying to improve by people who are actually calling for him to improve.
But yes, if he's going to use holds which I see know reason why he shouldn't, they should look realistic. But probs to the guy for trying at least

The thing people dont get is that I actually like Khali, hes a big guy, hes from my wifes home town (Punjab) and can actually work a good match now and then, yes hes trying but again i see other moves he can use apart from the cross face and the added fact that HHH and Shawn used the move on the same ppv really pissed me off, it made his botched attempt look even more pathetic
 
He is trying and it's something people really don't give him credit for. It's one thing being that big and coasting by on size, but he's genuinely trying. Ok, his crossface was awful - I actually thought it was a modified camel clutch from the way he was doing it - but he could use the fact he's so big to his advantage. The previously mentioned Torture Rack would be realistic because he's powerful enough to pull it off and it's a realistic hold for him to do. Provided the hold is real looking it could work - Mark Henry bearhug for example.

As for the women's division, I think nattie neidhart using submission holds works well given her history. It's her history to be able to do them
 
I think its good, but it could be better... its been a while since theres been like a submission based kinda guy... I hope they bring someone in like that cos I miss seeing someones submission finisher being a decent weapon a wrestler could use... like kurt angle used to go on about breaking peoples ankles... yea chris jericho has the walls but he has the code breaker now too.
 
yeah, a lot of guys that have had submissions as finishers had them replaced with other holds as well. Burchill being the best example. He used the Royal Mutilator (Fujiwara armbar) for a while then it went and he's now using the curb-stomp. I'd like to see him have the armbar brought back, because he could really work well with his vicious nature
 
It does seem that more submission holds are being used. Even Regal used submission holds in the King of the Ring Tournament. And with the Undertaker/Edge fued having something to do with a hold (the title being vacated because of Undertaker using the Gogoplata.) I think that this is a good move for WWE, as they have had less DQ finishes, at least from what I have seen.
 
I don't know how to feel about more submissions. It is interesting and different, which is almost always good, but using too many of them or the same one too many times can obvously chapen them. I think they could possibly use them as surprise endings to matches. For example, imagine if JBL had made John Cena tap at JD. The crowd would have been shocked (I don't recall ever seeing Cena submit) and people may begin to think that these holds are more than just filler to extend matches.
 
Undertaker has brought a lot of MMA style submissions to the WWE, such as Triangle Choke and Gogoplata. However, I don't think those moves suit his gimmick. It's a little ridiculous seeing him start every match in a boxing stance. What is he supposed to be, an undead UFC guy?

It's mainly because the Undertaker persona is one that adapts with time, he's gone from being the agile 7 footer who'd do nothing but choke and punch until the tombstone came about, to a guy who dives over the top rope, does running DDTs, chokeslams, elevated powerbombs and now UFC submissions (it's also the main reason i favour him over HBK because HBK's style hasn't adapted much in the last 20 years up until he beat Flair). He's also been promoted as the top striker in the company which explains the boxing stance, and he's also a huge UFC fan which is why he's adapting those moves for his arsenal. Also, remember that as the American Badass, Taker used a Dragon Sleeper for a while wo his submission skill isn't a totally new idea.

Even Regal used submission holds in the King of the Ring Tournament.

The Regal Stretch has been Regal's WWE submission finisher for years. The Regal Cutter (which is in fact a neckbreaker) is his hold finisher, but both have were replaced with the Power of the Punch and then he became Commissioner, and then he's never been booked in a way for him to need a finisher until now. Sadly however, he's never likely to get booked like that again after a second suspension.

Crossface? The funny thing is, WWE spend so much time making sure Benoit's name is never brought up and he's removed from all past media, yet ALL the talent is allowed to use his signature move (i know Malenko created it, but you see it and think BENOIT) which IMO totally undermines all taht effort, and yes everyone using it as a rest hold does totally make Benoit's countless wins with that hold look stupid but i doubt Vince McMahon cares about pissing on Benoit's legacy now.

I also think more submission finishers is a good thing. We used to have Benoit with the Crossface, Jericho with the WOJ, Tazz with the Tazzmission, Malenko with Texas Cloverleaf, Saturn with the Rings of Saturn, Eddie w/ the Lasso from El Passo, Angle/Shamrock with the Ankle Lock, 2 Hart's w/ the Sharpshooter, Foley had the Mandible Claw, Flair/Jarrett had the figure four and Steve Austin had the Cobra Clutch and Edge even had the Edgecator + those were all finishers. Even Jamie Noble had a pretty good chokehold submission in 2004 but now he's moved on to an equally impressive gut buster. Now we have the STFU, the occassional crossface from ANYONE and the gogoplata and little else in the men's division. I think it's great that the women are using submissions because in the last ten years i've only ever seen Jazz using them and Beth's double backbreaker literally had me stunned. I was on the phone when it happened and i literally stopped talking while that move was applied.

But my issue is, why is a chinlock or a sleeper the only submissions we see as rest holds these days? Why is the leg scissors used by only 2 people (and usually in conjunction with a chinlock)? Why does HHH never use the Indian Deathlock anymore? Where are the Mexican surfboards, the cross armbreakers, and the back breaker submissions we always used to see? I don't expect anyone to ever win a match with these holds but ya know, would giv a bit of variety to matches which is what WWE is lacking at the moment.
 
Its great to see more submissions. I think they're great when used correctly. You can have the simple submissions which are used as a breather, such as the sleeper hold for example, and the finishers, such as the sharpshooter.

They should be used more by superstars, because its good when you need the wrestlers embracing submissions more and more, partly due to UFC, but they were always around. Watching submission matches were the best, mainly because the match was so technical, it was a joy to watch.

It's even better to see the WWE Divas using submissions more. We all know that they are far from the best technical wrestlers, so if they can master the submissions then it makes them look more dominant because of it, plus it can help distract the viewers away from their wrestling ability. (Not all of the Divas are bad wrestlers, in fact, most of them are good, but are far from brilliant).

I think someone like Beth Phoenix should have a good submission hold, highlight her dominance both physically and technically. It would make her a better heel IMO.
 
Hell yea boi. Submission wrasslin owns. It just sucks that its nearly impossible to keep someone looking strong if they loose by submission. Foolish as it is, in the eyes of many fans, its the eptitome of weakness. I dont feel that way as I love Submission wrestlers, and I love Takers new move. I think its a double edge sword, becuase Submissions are great, but you cant help but look weak, as a huge consussory move could put down anyone, while they make people look like they arent "tough enough" to withstand a submission hold. I think to enhance the superficial impact, they need to be consistent with it. Its silly when one guy can get locked in a hold, and last for nearly minutes sometimes, and make it to the rope, while other tap in seconds. It needs to be consistent, or it makes the guys who DO tap look like *****es.
 
its good that submissions have been used more in matches. it adds more drama and heightens the tension. there was a time when a good portion of wrestlers had a signature submission move to go along with their finisher (eddie:laso from el paso, benoit: crossface, malenko: texas cloverleaf, saturn:, rings of saturn, ) im glad that this going to start again
 

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