What Happened to Submission Finishers in the WWE?

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Over the last couple of years we have seen the decline in the number of Submission Finishers in the WWE, we used to have Ric Flair's figure four, Punk's anaconda vise, HBK inverted figure four, Benoit's crossface, Jericho's Walls of Jericho( which has recently returned from its watered down version), Cena's STFU, just off the top of my head. I mean i love most of the finishers currently used, but how's Punk supposed to GTS a Mark Henry or a larger wrestler like that. With the Anaconda vise it opens up another option. We used to have submission matches, but those seem to no longer exist.

So my question is why did the submission finishers disappear and should they make a return or not? And which wrestlers do you think would benefit from having a submission finisher?
 
What happened to submission finishers? Simple - Chris Benoit.
Notice the decline after the Benoit tragedy, maybe for whatever reason they didn't want there to be an association. Flair used the Figure Four sparingly. Cena went back to mainly finishing opponents with the "Attitude Adjuster" *lame* and CM Punk's Anaconda Vice just drowned out and away. They want to wash away any stigma of finisher or anything related to Benoit's technical and submission background.
I was shocked to see Triple H use the crossface at times, but never to finish an opponent, just as a sort of remembrance. I guess being the son-in-law to the boss has its benefits.
Maybe they'll make a return one day, but until then, set yourself on all the neckbreaker and DDT variations that WWE will pour onto you.
 
Benoit died.
Flair "retired".
Jericho returned and they wanted him to have a new edgier finishing move, which proved to not work.
Cena's "STFU" was too dominant.
HBK was mostly just using a submission move because of the Flair thing i think.

Also, in today's environment, people want action. Seeing an opponent whither in pain from a submission move for 3 minutes just isn't much action for anybody other than the intelligent fan.

I remember a Raw house show 4 years ago at MSG where Edge and HBK (don't remember who) had a submission hold on the other for like 5 minutes. That'll never happen again for two reasons. One: common fans will turn off the tv. Two: there was a brawl going on in the crowd and they waited to get the attention back.
 
The reason I think is WWE finds them boring, which I've never agreed with. The only submission still being used that i can think of is the Walls, and that is just bad for a heel to use. It's a boston crab, that's it. No one is going to tap to that. This is something that's always made me scratch my head. Why not more submissions? There's very little sweeter than seeing someone struggling to get to the ropes and wondering if they'll tap or not. The problem is though that WWE wants action, and there's little action in a leg lock or something like that. It's definitely something that's lacking that I'd like to see come back.
 
You think with the popularity of MMA that the WWE would encourage more use of submissions. Submissions add so much suspense and drama to a match you it is a shame that it isn't used more. What would the Hart/Austin Wrestlemania match be without Austin bleeding in the sharpshooter in agony refusing to tap and passing out due to the pain. Or when flair would slap on the figure-four on someone and the opponent would try to grap a rope or reverse the leverage. The WWE should do everyone a favor and start encouraging more submissions
 
Yeah I do get the whole lack of entertainment thing, but i def agree with KB i like seeing the submission move locked in and the struggle to see whether the opponent tap out. I'm not saying that everyone should have them, but they can add an element to a match, like back in O.M.E.G.A Jeff Hardy had Spine Line(Armlock cloverleaf), so like instead of seeing him going for Swanton after Swanton, he locks that in instead, and it doesn't have to be an all the time thing, it just adds a different element. On wikipedia it list heaps of wrestlers that used to use sumbmission finishers:

Edge- Edgecator (Kneeling inverted sharpshooter)
HHH- Inverted Indian deathlock
Matt Hardy- Scar (Double underhook lock with bodyscissors)
Finlay- Celtic Knot (Modified Indian deathlock)

I think the return of some of these moves would help to either remove or ward off staleness in a wrestlers moveset, and in MH's case could help him with his current heel turn
 
Totally agree. They should implement it more often. The only ones that are still active (as a finisher) would be the STFU and the Devil's Triangle. Finlay should bring back the Celtic Knot. Walls of Jericho was... alright. Since Khali is face, doubt he'll start to use the Vice Grip again. Kinda miss the Master Lock too. Didn't Chavo used to have Lasso from El Paso? Or was that Eddie? Definitely miss the Crossface. The Sharpshooter is still alive within Natalia--whenever she wrestles again. Hopefully with time we'll see the Ankle Lock again. What happened with Big Show's Cobra Clutch as well?
 
Yeah, Big Show's cobra clutch was a nice addition to the standard big man moveset. I definately miss that one. Walls of Jericho is the most missed IMO. Sure, he still uses it sometimes, but I miss the days when hed at least attempt it most matches. Whatever, times change I guess.

EDIT: Whatever happened to the Anaconda Vise? I really liked that one as well, it always had some intensity to it. He could use that and the GTS as a one-two punch sort of deal, and I think it'd be very belieavable.
 
Only the Best of the Best were using a Submission manoever as a Finisher.
The Harts with the sharpshooter, Chris Benoit with the crossface, Chris Jericho with the lion hearth clutch, Kurt Angle with the ankle lock, Lance Storm with the single leg boston crab , Eddie Guerrero with the Laso frpm El Paso
Did u Notice i mention a lot of canadians.
Does Canadians ''WRestlers-Entertainers'' prefers using a submit signature move ?
well i do think thats true remmember Rick Martel is another one?
 
unfortunately for wwe the last good submissionist they have had was kurt angle, and now hes the face of tna. wwe used to have plenty of submissionists but apparently its all about intensly muscly guys that can barely wrestle and cant go one promo without making a mistake. batista for example. the whole reason there is no good submission finishers is because there is no good submissionists to do them... because wwe breads 2 things now, big sweaty guys that look good because of there one powerful finisher, or high fliers, which sucks because there was nothing more exciting then watching chris benoit pull the crossface out of absulutely no where, so all in all i dont think wwe is lacking in submission finishers,, i think wwe is lacking in proper submissionist style wrestlers.
 
If i were a wrestler i'd use the Rings of Saturn. Mainly because it's a random one nobody ever mentions in this day and age.

IMO it's not just submission finishers, but submission wrestling in general that has suffered in WWE. Very few guys seem to ever use a unique submission move these days. It's rear naked choke this, or sleeper that, or nerve pinch every other fuckin' hold and it's stupid.

Where are my abdominal stretches, and our leg grapevines, or our spinning toe holds or fujibar armbars?

I think submission wrestling fizzled out after Benoit died, not because of him, but because he was about the only technical wrestler left anyway. Angle, Guerrero, Jericho, Hart, Lesnar, Saturn, Malenko are all gone. Charlie Haas keeps getting fired and re-hired every ten minutes and the Haas of Pain hasn't been used in years. Noble's a good technical wrestler but jobs all the time, so he's not going to be bashing out any Mexican Surfboards anytime soon. There is Shelton of course, and Gregory Helms but while they may be technical guys, neither have ever been submission specialists. MVP started his Benoit fued with a few decent holds here and there, but it never progressed from that sadly.

Perhaps now with an All-American like Swagger, and another graduate of the Hart Dungeon in Tyson Kidd, we may see a return of some decent submission holds.
 
I thinks its as KB pointed out earlier. A lot of submissions don't make for an exciting and high tempo match which is what the E need to keep the crowds watching. I also agree with aG3Nt that it would be nice to see some variations on the submissions that do appear in a match. I would also like to see 2 wrestlers have a submission match at some point in the year, see if the can recreate the magic of Hart/Austin.

Also to re-emphasise the other point in this thread, which wrestlers do you think could benefit from a revival of/ addition of a submission finisher?
 
I think every show needs it submission specialists,

We have Undertaker who is using a modified triangle choke hold.

Id like to see Mark Henry with the Full Nelson, and I do agree i liked big shows cobra clutch

Good submission holds help sell a match, and i remmeber not that long ago how a sleeper hold, got people on the edge of the seats.

I think personally that the midcard and upper midcard need submission moves, give them something that sells them, and moves a little attention from the mian eventers to them,

I rememeber watching matches, and all of a sudden, bang theres an ankle lock, or sharpshooter etc

in conclusion I want to see more submission matches!
 
To talk about S.S second point, which wrestler needs a submission upgrade?
I would say Batista... Because the Batista bomb to me just sucks, a power bomb never looks good when the giver has to fall back on his ass after completing the move. Batista is a powerful man but his finsiher looks lack luster. When undertaker did the last ride or Sid did his power bomb, it looked like the opponent was going thru the mat. That might be because of length and strength. Anyways Batista needs like a Torture Rack, something that shows off his power. Even a ankle lock could benefit him. Apply that thing like shamrock and angle do... He is the animal after all!
 
C'mon guys!!!!!! This is WWE we are talking about if wrestlers spent time wearing down an oppenent for a dramatic entertaining submission hold ,then they wouldn't have time for the 20 minute diva matches that everybody gets up and goes to the concession stand and bathroom during
 
WWE gears itself towards young adults and children who want casual hard hitting action. They want no match outside the main event and some sort of tag match at the halfway point to go for longer than 10 minutes. They want a lot of striking and flashy moves. However they take this circus on the road all year long so they want all of that without risking any kind of injury to their employees. For this reason there is minimal high flying or danger. WWE used to pride itself for having some of the best high flyers around, they brought people in specifically for it, they gave it center stage, now it's Evan Bourne and no-one else.

All of this speed and quickness cuts down on submissions because they take time. Very few submissions are locked straight in and there's an immediate tap-out. It requires extensive working of a body part, an understanding from the audience in regards to psychology, and multiple attempts at the move. Then when you have it in, there's a long struggle. Essentially WWE thinks this will bore the Jones family of California who would rather see big huge athletes smashing into each other as opposed to sweaty dudes rolling around on the floor.

PPVs see more submission orientated wrestling because while the casual fans make up the majority of the tv audience, I'd argue that it's more of the dedicated ones that are willing to pay to watch. Once you've paid for it it doesn't matter what they do, so they have longer matches, more submissions, the whole nine yards. During tv they have to keep it constantly exciting or risk the audience changing channels. If you decide to stop watching a PPV they don't give a damn, they've made their cash.

ROH fans are exclusively die-hards who understand and are patient enough to watch them working each other over so they use a very submission-orientated style. Almost every wrestler on their roster has a submission finisher to go along with a regular, and in most places some sort of top-rope move as well. It opens up more interesting and unusual match formats because you get excited as to what avenue they are going to take it.

TNA fans are somewhere in the middle so while they have very few submission victories (Angle, Joe and Sting are about it) they do incorporate submission moves into their matches more and definitely more high-flying than the WWE, but of course less than ROH.

It's all about the audiences and the workload of the three companies really. WWE wrestlers wrestle more matches than anyone, travel a hell of a lot and have the biggest audience so it just isn't smart for business for them to risk their health. ROH, as much of a dedicated fan as I am, have about 12 fans and have a mentality of going all-out every night because they're desperate for any new fans to become hooked. TNA is once again in the middle, larger audience than ROH, less matches, middle of the road.
 
It's because it makes the wrestlers look bad when they give up and submit! It's been that way since they had Bret Hart, they realized that the like of Hogan, Macho and whoever else would look weak if they submitted.
 
Dude who cares? were submission moves so special to begin with? Those moves only makes the match look boring and long. As a wrestling fan I want to see some action and people flying all over the place not some guy like The Undertaker drawing time by using a submission. Back in the old day people were using them in the middle of the frikkin match. I for one hated that. I'm not a fan of submission moves and think that if performed at the wrong time damage the match. Be glad that there are so less submission moves. I understand some people want to see it but once in a while like on pay-per-views or championship matches are good enough right? submission moves on regular tv-time is just plain boring
 
I think HHH using the crossface proves your theory wrong. If they want to wash away that stigma, why would they show the hold that benoit made famous.
 
I think submission moves are great, they used to get me out of my seat and kneeling in front of the TV. Is Jericho locking in the walls?! Benoit with the crossface!! Angle with an ankle lock!!! It used to get me real excited. I get what GXE is saying though as well, they can be boring.

I would only like to see the classics and maybe some new onces by new guys if done right and look good. The audience of WWE has changed so much that the majority wouldnt know that someone can even win a match with a submission hold, why would they want to see Jericho sitting on some guys back holding his legs, or Trips lying on some guys back with his arms around his face. All they want to see is Batista bombing people or Mysterio swinging around the ropes like a tool.

Submission wrestling will probably never be as popular as it was in the attitude era or when Benoit was still wrestling. But at least we still get the odd Devils Triangle, STFU or Walls Of Jericho.... I actually flicked onto TNA the other night accidentally (Never watch it really) and Angel was using his ankle lock which was pretty sweet.
 
sub finishers are still there. it seems any one who is a somebody has tehir main finishing move. when that for whatever reason doesn't work they finish it with tehir submission move.

except michelle mccol who seemingly keeps alternating finishers on a weekly basis
 
There are no more submission finishers because to the casual fan and to some not so casual fans submissions are dull and boring. The era of submissions finishes is more or less over. Personally i think submission finishers can work if the right person is using them. For example kurt angle because of his amateur background make sense, bret hart because of his gimmick, ken shamrock because of his UFC background. However, if the wrong person uses a submission finisher its just lame and stupid. John Cena's F-U (or whatever the hell its called now) was a fine finisher, it didn't make sense for him to add a submission move, The Rock doing the sharpshooter was ridiculous and Shawmn Michaels and Triple H doing any submission(leg lock thing, indian deathlock, crossface) is fucking ******ed.

So the bottom line is if used properly and with the right people submission finishers can add a lot of drama to a match and make it more entertaining but if used with the wrong people submission finisher will insult and bore the audience.
 
I agree... the death of submission finishers occurred with the death of Chris Benoit. I am a person who is a big fan of submisson moves, and I would really like to see other people start to use more submisson moves, besides who we have now... Undertaker and John Cena. Some wrestlers that I think would really benefit from having a submission move are...

C.M. Punk: When Punk first debuted on ECW, he used the ''Anaconda Vice'' as his finisher. I liked the move because it really looked that it hurts. The GTS is a good move, but bringing back the submission or another submission would really help him.

Beth Phoenix: She is always being considered the most dominant diva in the WWE. I'm not saying that she's not, but what better way to show it than watching her lock in a submission and put the other divas in excruiating pain? One that looks painful, unlike Michelle McCool's submission.

Festus: WWE still has plans to turn him into a singles star, with Jesse as his manager. So, why not add a submission move to his arsenal along with ''flapjack'' move? I think it would work since Festus is so strong.

Shelton Benjamin: He just recently switched his finisher from the ''T-Bone Suplex'' to the ''Paydirt''. You would think that he would be fine, but the ''Paydirt'' doesn't seem like enough of an effective move, so a submission would help.

Vladimir Kozlov: If you've noticed, since Kozlov debuted in April, he has changed his finisher 3 times. First was the ''scoop slam inverted DDT'', then the ''Backbreaker'' then the ''one-handed choke into powerbomb''. You should not have that many different finisher in such a short time, and as much power as he has, he would really make the submission move very effective.
 
There may not be as many submission finishes because maybe they're not as exciting to some fans as another type of finisher. This one confuses me too.

One thing that bugs me though (which is what I really wanted to post) is how Chris Jericho's Walls of Jericho NEVER wins him matches anymore. It's annoying to watch Cena last 2 minutes in the Walls like it's a reverse chin lock. Only to have Cena slap a half-assed looking STFU on Jericho and make him tap in 5 seconds.

I guess it's impossible to give a heel wrestler a finishing move because they NEVER want to have a face tap out, because it makes them look like a "coward" or a "quitter". A heel needs to come out with another "ankle lock" type move (in terms of pain and intensity) and run with it. That may start the trend of submissions again.
 
I'll tell you what happened to submission moves. John Cena, Batista, and Triple H happened to submission moves. The WWE is currently targeting young people. They recruit them and keep them as fans, which eventually, will lead to the next "attitude era"... or so we hope. There's a reason people like John Cena and Rey Mysterio are being pushed so much. Little kids like excitement. They don't want to sit and watch greasy men hold each other for ten minutes. They want to see high-flying, powerhouse, big moves. If that means less submission moves, oh well. Wrestling isn't wrestling anymore, but it sure as hell will draw.
 

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