Who do you feel was the best set up artist for submissions?

[DarksideEric]

I'm a big fan of submission wrestling, I've done at least two threads on it and have talked about how I think some submissions, such as the Anaconda Vise, should be used in a larger variety of ways, so once again I present another "who do you think" type of thread for submission build up and set up.

For the moment I'll focus on my personal favorite (he's my avatar [Bret Hart]) and what this thread is largely about.

Bret in many of his matches, if not all of his matches, would have several moves dedicated to setting up for the Sharpshooter. Not just the Pendulum Backbreaker mind you but other things as well, some very simplistic and some rather creative. Bret would punch and elbow opponents in the back, set the opponent's leg on the bottom rope and spring up to bring his tail bone down across the knee, utilize the Figure Four around the ring post, grab his opponent's ankle while placing his foot on their hip and then snapping forward over the opponent to hyper extend the hamstring, etc, etc.

Such is the point of this thread: Who do you feel best actually sets up for their submission, especially if it's their primary (only) finisher?

I always felt somewhat... less enthusiastic about matches ending by submission for such moves as the Anaconda Vise (despite loving the move and Punk), the STF and the Hell's Gate because there's no build up to it most of the time... it's just, BAM! you're caught kinda thing. If that makes sense.

 

[Jack G]

There are some submissions which are, like you say, "just BAM!" and they're locked in...Benoit's crossface, Taz's sleeper for example.

For me in terms of "best" set ups; I'm a fan of the move looking as if they physically cannot escape. All too often when somebody counters a submission it leaves me wondering why every wrestler doesn't see that counter and think to themselves..so THAT's how I escape that move...for example, the ankle lock; a painful move but all too often countered by simply rolling out of it...Walls of Jericho; countered by rolling underneath the legs OR just grabbing Jericho's legs.

My favourite submission? I can't say I'm a fan of the submission finish, at all, but I'd go for the Sharpshooter (Scorpion deathlock, Cloverleaf, Boston Crab, etc); looks good, looks painful, hard to escape, full control of the victim (if they reach for rope you can walk them away). Bret..or Rock? I'd go for the Rock's version.

A special mention to Edge for his varient on it with the Edgecution or Edgecator? i believe it was called something like that? Bascially he kneeled on thier back on the side and make it look even more painful!

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

Gotta bring Flair into this one.

You knew the routine: Stomp the leg, rolling knee drop, kneebreaker and then "NOOOOOW...WE GO TO SCHOOL". Boom, locked in.

Of course the majority of the time, no one actually submitted to the move.

 

[CeramicDuck]

I like the set up and the quick subs both.. I really like the idea that a match can end at a moments notice with some subs. It adds an anticipation that naturally creates a set up without anything physical happening.

I also like the quick submission that looks great but won't end a match an example would be The Tarantula.

 

[CrunKSinatrA]

As far as setting up their opponent and working the ring psychology, it's only Bret Hart.

This topic is like talking about NBA scoring records. Wilt Chamberlain holds pretty much all of the records and the conversation is only fun when you exclude him for variety's sake.

Sting or Ric Flair would be the next closest wrestlers. Flair's chopblocks, kneebreakers, and all around cheapshots to set up the figure four leglock were awesome too. Even though he rarely got the submission, it still looked legitimately painful.

Sting would set up with the Stinger Splash in the corner, then the Scorpion Death Drop, and last the Scorpion Deathlock. Who cares about psychology when the crowd goes crazy for Sting. But Ric Flair gets the edge since he made Sting's legacy with their landmark rivalry.

One thing I do find kind of funny is the idea of the set up itself. In MMA matches, submissions don't need set ups. Once a kimura is set in, the match is over. Either the victim taps or the referee stops the match for a TKO.

The fighter's might throw muay thai kicks to legs but that's to hinder their opponent's mobility by harming their legs. Or once the opponent starts to defend their legs, they leave an opening for a knockout hit to head. It's not to set up for a leg lock.

Another funny thing about submissions in wrestling is the old sleeper routine. We've all seen it thousands of time. The victim goes limp, and the ref then lifts the arm up twice. The arm drops twice. Now on the 3rd time, the victim suddenly comes to life and fights out.

What makes me laugh is to again compare to MMA. A fighter is ensnared in a rear naked choke and they don't tap. The referee allows the victim to go limp. Then the referee then lifts the arm and let's it fall to the mat... we've all witnessed a murder.