ROH Versus TNA

[MrHashasheen]

I feel like a bit of an ass for making this thread after the dozens & dozens of TNA versus WWE threads that have been made, but it's been on my mind so I figured, might as well.

Since the Sinclair buyout, ROH has catapulted to a new level of popularity in the USA. They've broke their IPPV records, they've supposedly got a million viewers nationally on their syndicated deal, and they're rapidly establishing themselves as the realistic place to be for indie workers.

TNA's ratings have been stagnant for a couple of years now under the Hogan-Bischoff rule, but since BFG they've turned the corner nicely storylines-wise and have been making massive progress with their roster and company. RKK's been a major success with talks about it being replicated in Argentina, OVW has signed on as the developmental company (while possessing a working agreement with ROH), experimenting with live television and even getting a third hour of television on Thursdays recently.

There's been rosters jumps on both ends over the past couple of years. There were (weak) rumors that the Guardians of Truth (ROH manager Truth Martini's latest project), were meant to originally be Alex Shelley & Chris Sabin returning to ROH, Desmond Wolfe jumped to ROH to color commentate, and there's the obvious Jay Lethal return to ROH coupled with his Television title push. TNA on the other hand signed up ex-World Champion Austin Aries and made him a centerpiece of the show for over a year before his recent victory, and the newly arrived ROH tag team champion Kenny King joined up to take part in Destination X, and it's unlikely that's the last that will be seen of him.

In addition, there's been recent claims (notably by Mark Madden), that ROH's finances aren't as good as they'd like them to be (well, he says they're going out of business sooner or later), and that creatively and popularity wise, the company has simply stalled. That they're bound to crash and burn.

So with all that in mind, here are some questions:
1. Do you see a "Monday Night Wars" style conflict occurring between ROH and TNA? Shots getting fired on both ends, more talent jumping ship, maybe cross promotional angles?
2. Do you think ROH is in serious trouble and could shut down?
3. Who would you like to see in TNA from ROH?
4. Who would you like to see in ROH from TNA?
5. Who would you like to see from the indies or internationally join either company?

 

[braveh]

I thought ROH were somewhat strong before they lost their TV-deal wtih HDnet. Now aren't they on their way to bankruptcy?

If they don't have the money they should fire some talent to fix these two problems. Build a freaking entrance and get rid of that gay silver curtain. The bald australian announcer has to go. He is horrible.

 

[Lowdown]

I highly doubt there will be a war of sorts between the two promotions. I don't know how far into bankruptcy ROH maybe, but I keep reading that they will fold within the next 18 months or so. A few years back I thought they were cross promoting seeing that Samoa Joe had bounced between ROH and TNA (at the time I couldn't watch either). At the same time, doesn't Jim Cornette run OVW, which is currently developmental for both companies? As far as who I'd like to see in TNA, maybe bring back Jay Lethal, Rhett Titus to possibly reform ANX, definitely Michael Elgin. At any rate, I enjoy watching both products, and I hope that both succeed in the long run.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

I have no idea why people are so focused with these "Monday Night Wars". They were a once in a lifetime scenario. When, ever, have two companies gone to war in the wrestling business the way WCW and WWF did in the 90's? Never. And it's never going to happen again unless somehow TNA gets some billionaire owner who's willing to spend millions of his own money up front along with the shiftiest group of shyster lawyers to help him poach WWE talent still under contract (to somehow get around the 90-day no compete clause).

Sorry, Hash, but it's not happening here either. Even if there is bad blood between ROH and TNA, there's nothing either company can truly do about it other than lure away the others' performers once their contracts expire.

As for the talent I'd like to see come in to TNA (I don't watch ROH, so there's no talent I want to see go there), that list starts with the Briscoe Brothers, moves to Alex Steen and finishes with Benjamin and Haas.

 

[Rayne]

Without an angel investor, it seems entirely unlikely. The two promotions are in entirely different places. TNA/IW has failed to gain much ground over the past few years, but people still talk about them. They've retained their core fanbase. Not so much ROH. A few years ago, there were people actually discussing ROH here. Now, the promotion only seems to come up when there's a "should this guy go to (WWE/(TNA/IW))?" thread, to which most people respond "who?"

Followed six months later by declarations from half the board about how great this new homegrown talent is.

I have a theory that there's only room for two major promotions to be self-sustaining in the United States; not one, not three, but two is the stable number. They can be roughly equivalent, as in the WCW/WWF days, or they can be big brother/little brother, like today with WWE and TNA/IW. (I can tell this is going to get scholarly and pedantic, so if you're looking for Short Attention Span Theater, please skip to the next post.)

First, let's examine the case where there's a single dominant player in the market. This could be the WWF of the late 1980's, or the WWF/E of the early 2000's. (Prior to this, wrestling was run under the NWA system, which was more of an organized monopoly rather than the competitive capitalist system of today- the theory won't apply to a different market system.) So far, each time there has been a dominant market player, it has given rise to a new competitor who was able to stay solvent by offering a product that the WWF/E either wouldn't or couldn't. WCW offered a return to 'traditional wrestling' while the WWF was in the middle of their Saturday Morning Cartoon phase. TNA seemingly started off as the "Anyone But Vince" company, but they are slowly finding their niche as a wrestling-oriented company with less emphasis on storylines. (I'm pretending this whole Claire thing isn't happening, so indulge me in that. Too painful to watch.)

There have never been three dominant professional wrestling companies simultaneously; I don't discount the possibility, but I'll explain why it's unlikely in the next couple paragraphs.

Let's take the case of the 1990's, with two equivalent companies. Early in the Monday Night Wars, talent moved around fairly freely, as open competition was a new animal to the professional wrestling world. There weren't any no-compete clauses, because until then, there had been no competition to worry about. The NWA system kept performers wedded to promotions, with the low salary that being unable to negotiate brings. Up until the Monday Night Wars, the WWE had ruled the post-NWA professional wrestling world alone. Eventually, the new rules firmed up. Motion between the companies became far less frequent, but each promotion still needed new performers. Not only do you always lose some performers to injury, retirement, or being boring, but people want to see "new". Where was the best source of "new" for the WCW/WWF fans? The next largest promotion, ECW. WCW and the WWF had money that ECW simply couldn't contend with. There was no room for a third promotion to grow, because the larger two promotions could afford to pick off the best pieces.

Next, you have today's case. There is a senior promotion, a junior promotion, and "another" promotion. The WWE can outspend all players in the market; if there's someone they want, it's very unlikely that TNA/IW will be able to match the offer. (Simple matter of resources. For those of you who say "Kurt Angle! Jeff Hardy!", the WWE may simply not want them at the price they would command for the job being requested. The law of supply and demand is never suspended in a free market.) TNA/IW, in order to be self-sustaining without a farm system (a weakness they're working on), needs to recruit from a promotion which is developing near television-ready performers- one that they can also afford to outspend. That's ROH. The WWE can pick whom they'd like from ROH; TNA/IW can get anyone that they haven't been outspent or outglitzed by the WWE on; ROH is left with the scraps, that aren't enough to keep an audience interested.

There are of course lesser promotions outside of the three listed, but they don't really have an impact on the two-power system. If ROH were to go out of business, I'd expect one of them to make a play at being the new #3 player, which I feel is a recipe for short term success and long term disaster.

 

[MrHashasheen]

I have no idea why people are so focused with these "Monday Night Wars". They were a once in a lifetime scenario. When, ever, have two companies gone to war in the wrestling business the way WCW and WWF did in the 90's?

ECW and the NWA affiliate in New Jersey ran by Dennis Corralluzo.
CWA/USWA and the Poffo-run IWF
MSW/UWF and WCCW/WCWA during the late eighties when the UWF was making a push towards national and were expanding into Texas
the NWA as a whole versus Vince and the WWF

Obviously not on the same level as WCW-WWF, but those were all instances where companies or organizations took shots at each other, stole talent and the rest of the drama.

 

[It's Damn Real!]

ECW and the NWA affiliate in New Jersey ran by Dennis Corralluzo.
CWA/USWA and the Poffo-run IWF
MSW/UWF and WCCW/WCWA during the late eighties when the UWF was making a push towards national and were expanding into Texas
the NWA as a whole versus Vince and the WWF

Obviously not on the same level as WCW-WWF, but those were all instances where companies or organizations took shots at each other, stole talent and the rest of the drama.

Admittedly I know fuckall about any of those organizations or what's going on between them, but what I can say is that there is a vast difference between the "Monday Night Wars" and "taking shots at each other", etc.

You also can't really "steal" talent these days. Everyone works on a contract, and contracts are getting tighter and tighter (see: 90-day no compete clause). One of the biggest reasons for the success of the WCW/WWF war was the fact that WCW exploited the fact that WWF didn't have things like the 90-day NCC and "stole" their talent from under their noses by waiving a ton more money than WWF was willing to offer.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Admittedly I know fuckall about any of those organizations or what's going on between them, but what I can say is that there is a vast difference between the "Monday Night Wars" and "taking shots at each other", etc.

... Yes. I pointed that there was a difference in my post.

You also can't really "steal" talent these days. Everyone works on a contract, and contracts are getting tighter and tighter (see: 90-day no compete clause). One of the biggest reasons for the success of the WCW/WWF war was the fact that WCW exploited the fact that WWF didn't have things like the 90-day NCC and "stole" their talent from under their noses by waiving a ton more money than WWF was willing to offer.

The WWE is pretty much the only company that can afford to pull that shit on it's talents I think. Can you imagine PWG or Chikara trying that on it's people to keep them away from ROH or a Japanese company?

 

[Iversen]

You also can't really "steal" talent these days. Everyone works on a contract, and contracts are getting tighter and tighter (see: 90-day no compete clause). One of the biggest reasons for the success of the WCW/WWF war was the fact that WCW exploited the fact that WWF didn't have things like the 90-day NCC and "stole" their talent from under their noses by waiving a ton more money than WWF was willing to offer.

You could argue that TNA just did exactly that with Kenny King although admittedly his contract was up. Companies like ROH won't be able to get talents to sign 90 days no compete contracts and I'd guess a lot of their roster is fleshed out by guys that are on pay as you wrestle or whatever you'd call that type deals.

I don't think ROH is in any position to challenge TNA at the moment though. They've never recovered from losing the talent that they did and while the likes of Kevin Steen, Generico, Edwards, Strong and a few others are good wrestlers none of them, in my opinion at least, are a CM Punk, Nigel McGuinness, Double A, Samoa Joe or Bryan. Many of them could go on to an Alex Shelley type level and have great in ring talent but not quite make it as a top level star. Frankly ROH is a bit of a mess at the moment. It's PPVs and TV don't match up due to the taping schedule and a lot of it just flatters to deceive while TNA is arguably doing it's best programming in a very long time. ROH would be stupid, especially with these apparent rumours of bankruptcy but then the only person I've really seen push these rumours is Mark Madden so I don't know how true these are, to try and compete with them at the moment. They'd be better off trying to get involved in a working relationship with them.

 

[Rayne]

They'd be better off trying to get involved in a working relationship with them.

Sorry to snip out the majority of your post for the key quote, but this riffs right back into my previous post really well.

A working agreement with TNA/IW would be good for ROH, but offers nothing to TNA/IW that they can't get without working with ROH. The benefit would be all ROH. TNA/IW doesn't need anyone from the ROH midcard. Not only are they not at the level that TNA/IW is looking for, but TNA/IW can fill that spot with people from other promotions at a price they don't have to negotiate for.

What TNA/IW would be want from ROH, if anything, would be access to their top stars like Steen and Benjamin/Haas. They don't need to negotiate for this either, because if they want them, TNA/IW has the financial leverage to take them away at the end of their contracts. This is exactly what just happened with Kenny King.

ROH can offer nothing in a negotiation that TNA/IW can't take at their leisure. Their top stars won't sign long-term contracts, or would be fools to. The only reason for negotiation is to get something that you can't take without someone else's cooperation.

 

[MCMGfoLife]

It wouldn't even be a battle. ROH can barely get people to show up for shows (I keep hearing like 500 people showing up for shows) and their talent is leaving. No one who has an option is going to ROH. Sinclair is barely available in the US which leads me to believe there's no way their getting a million viewers a week. They aren't making money, and some of the guys have already left knowing this fact, seeing the ship is sinking.

Also, there's no war to have, cuz ROH is no competition to TNA. TNA has solid money, real ppvs, a good tv deal, and a pretty good, consistent fan base. I don't see how there is any kind of "war" going on here between a company that is doing great and a company that's on its way to going out of business (unless they miraculously get a ton of people to start showing up and get a good tv deal.)

If you'd asked this question 2 or 3 years ago, I'd say sure. But it's not 2 or 3 years ago and ROH is in danger of not being here much longer. I think if they do fold, it would be a good move on TNA to purchase them, as I'm sure the promotion isn't worth a great deal of $$, and they could bring in the good talent that ROH does have, which isn't much anymore, but anything could help.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

It wouldn't even be a battle. ROH can barely get people to show up for shows (I keep hearing like 500 people showing up for shows)

In Pittsburgh, an area Ring of Honor isn't familiarized with because its stronghold is New York, Chicago and Philidelphia, now you'd have known that if you had a clue before commenting, but you didn't, chances are you read Mark Madden's pathetic article but ignored Kevin Kelly's, someone who works within Ring of Honor and on television who stated the inaccuracies Madden presented. Get a clue, then comment kid.

and their talent is leaving.

Oh no, you mean to tell me that Kenny King left so everyone will follow? The same Kenny King who was paired off with Rhett Titus because Ring of Honor didn't have anything better for him? Same Kenny King who was one of six tag teams within Ring of Honor? Oh God no, now everybody is going to leave. By the way, if you don't understand sarcasm, sorry for misleading you with the following paragraph, mental ******ation is a horrible issue.

No one who has an option is going to ROH.

Really? So when The Briscoes, who are Ring of Honor mainstays haven't gone to WWE, despite the fact everybody knows WWE are interested, that isn't an option? Gee, you are wise beyond your years young padwan. Tell me more about your insight on the world of professional wrestling, outside of what Mark Madden is writing on the main page, please, I'm dying to know.

Sinclair is barely available in the US which leads me to believe there's no way their getting a million viewers a week.

Incorrect. Ring of Honor never claim to be getting a million viewers in the States, they average 0.4, considering their show is only available to half the country that is pretty damn impressive. What they promote is the fact they get one million viewers worldwide, which is an accurate fact.

They aren't making money

Oh, so you're an accountant now? Okay, well I'll throw some stats your way Mr. Gates. Ring of Honor produced a t-shirt for Kevin Steen, with the design "KILL STEEN KILL" in the same pattern as WWE's "Rise Above Hate" t-shirt for John Cena. They made 100,000 t-shirts and placed them on their website, and in three days, with a t-shirt costing $19.99 it was sold-out, that is a profit of $149,900. Take into the sensible costs of the t-shirt, for its design and the amount they made and there is definitely a profit there Mr. Gates, so again, learn a thing or two before you comment.

I won't even start writing about how they broke the iPPV record twice, and still hold the record which is a five figured number no less.

and some of the guys have already left knowing this fact, seeing the ship is sinking.

Tell me a few names. Kenny King did nothing but compliment the company on his Twitter farewell, after his departure these guys are leaving for either WWE or TNA, and this is what morons like you seem to forget.

Ring of Honor is an INDEPENDENT WRESTLING PROMOTION. Talent come to hone their craft, perform, contribute to the company and then leave. CM Punk, Bryan Danielson, Austin Aries, Nigel McGuinness, Tyler Black, Chris Hero, Claudio Castagnoli have all left to be replaced by people like Kevin Steen, Eddie Edwards, Davey Richards, Adam Cole, The Young Bucks, Michael Elgin, Mike Bennett so on so forth, because that is the consistent pattern with Ring of Honor.

It produces more top quality talent than TNA or WWE have in the past decade. And if you want to tilt your head with a dumb expression on your face reading some names above, questioning "Who?" That is the reply I desire, because that is exactly what people used to ask years ago when discussing the likes of Austin Aries, and Bryan Danielson, and Tyler Black and even last week, Kenny King. But once they sign with one of the big two they're everybody and their mothers favorite wrestler.

Also, there's no war to have, cuz ROH is no competition to TNA. TNA has solid money, real ppvs, a good tv deal, and a pretty good, consistent fan base. I don't see how there is any kind of "war" going on here between a company that is doing great and a company that's on its way to going out of business (unless they miraculously get a ton of people to start showing up and get a good tv deal.)

Earlier I quipped about you being mentally ******ed, now I question the legitimacy. Once again, you are like Mark Madden, you're comparing Ring of Honor, an independent wrestling promotion to a mainstream wrestling promotion and there is literally no way of comparison. The only things you can compare is the product and talent, that is it. And considering everybody is up in arms over how great the likes of Aries and King are, guess what?

Ring of Honor has at least six to seven guys on the roster who are of the same talent, calibre as Aries and King, if not better than the latter because asides from finally winning the ROH World Tag Team Championship two weeks ago, King had little success in Ring of Honor. Learn before you post child.

If you'd asked this question 2 or 3 years ago, I'd say sure. But it's not 2 or 3 years ago and ROH is in danger of not being here much longer. I think if they do fold, it would be a good move on TNA to purchase them, as I'm sure the promotion isn't worth a great deal of $$, and they could bring in the good talent that ROH does have, which isn't much anymore, but anything could help.

You're fucking ******ed.

Ring of Honor, owned by Sinclair Broadcast Group, who are worth well into the six figure range self admittedly purchased Ring of Honor for a six figure settlement from Cary Silkin. And little talent? If they had little talent then there wouldn't be 0.4 people tuning in every week, and considering Ring of Honor is only available in 26% of American households just imagine the egg on your face if they had a national television deal. SBG was an investor, Silkin wasn't throwing the company out there for sale, they came in on their own free will.

Don't comment on shit you have no idea about. Don't comment on shit because you read an article on the Internet because you never know who may know a hell of a lot more than you, namely being me. Get a clue before you comment next time.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Oh no, you mean to tell me that Kenny King left so everyone will follow? The same Kenny King who was paired off with Rhett Titus because Ring of Honor didn't have anything better for him? Same Kenny King who was one of six tag teams within Ring of Honor? Oh God no, now everybody is going to leave. By the way, if you don't understand sarcasm, sorry for misleading you with the following paragraph, mental ******ation is a horrible issue.

Don't minimize it like that. King was still one half of the Tag Team Champions.

Really? So when The Briscoes, who are Ring of Honor mainstays haven't gone to WWE, despite the fact everybody knows WWE are interested, that isn't an option?

Everybody? Whose everybody? Saga, we're talking dirt-sheets here. "Knowing" doesn't really have that much weight to it.

Incorrect. Ring of Honor never claim to be getting a million viewers in the States, they average 0.4, considering their show is only available to half the country that is pretty damn impressive. What they promote is the fact they get one million viewers worldwide, which is an accurate fact.

1. There's a Kenny King/Rhett Titus preview video on Youtube somewhere, where they say ROH officials told them they were doing 1 million a episode.
2. Charlie Haas made the same claim, it got put up on Wrestlezone's main page.
3. Source for the first point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgDU-Sb2i7k
4. I just finished reading the quote. Since when does ROH have television internationally?

Ring of Honor has at least six to seven guys on the roster who are of the same talent, calibre as Aries and King, if not better than the latter because asides from finally winning the ROH World Tag Team Championship two weeks ago, King had little success in Ring of Honor. Learn before you post child.

Talent-wise? I'm seeing Steen, Lethal, Elgin, Benjamin, Haas & Briscoes. Am I right?

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Don't minimize it like that. King was still one half of the Tag Team Champions.

Allow me to explain something to you and everybody else who knows little about Ring of Honor. All Night Express was made up of Kenny and Rhett Titus, they were thrown together. Before that King has been in two tag teams that didn't get over, failed and disbanded. They were second fiddle to World's Greatest Tag Team, Kings of Wrestling and The Briscoe Brothers. Until last years Best in The World nobody even recognized them as true contenders for the tag team titles.

Once KOW left and WGTT won the titles back, ANX were built up to win them because Briscoe's were feuding with Chikara and then Guardian's of Truth. Simple fact is, ANX were lucky, lucky that KOW departed because of they hadn't chances are Ring of Honor would still be throwing them in tag teams matches some question their involvement in.

Did they get over? Yeah, eventually, took well over a year but they did it. How long did it take them to win the Tag Team titles? Three years, because people saw more in other tag teams. They had minimal success in Ring of Honor, that is not the minimized fact that is the true fact. King is a very good wrestler, like the majority of the ROH roster, but he is not a talent fans would have made such a commotion about had it not been for the fact he'd just won the ROH World Tag Team titles two weeks prior. That is a fact.

Everybody? Whose everybody? Saga, we're talking dirt-sheets here. "Knowing" doesn't really have that much weight to it.

Briscoes have admitted WWE have offered them contracts, they've had tryouts, they've gone to Florida, the latest one was Jim Cornette stopped them from leaving which we know is false, because Briscoe's have no desire to work for WWE because of WWE's product, despite the fact Mark stated to PWI magazine if push comes to shove, they'll eventually take the chance.

1. There's a Kenny King/Rhett Titus preview video on Youtube somewhere, where they say ROH officials told them they were doing 1 million a episode.
2. Charlie Haas made the same claim, it got put up on Wrestlezone's main page.
3. Source for the first point: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgDU-Sb2i7k

Oddly enough, I'm the person that posted the video on the forum originally. Ring of Honor claimed they were pulling in one million people, they didn't say America, since then Kevin Kelly has noted that through views of the show on their website plus the average 0.4 that watch the show every week, they are pulling in one million people worldwide. Which for an independent wrestling promotion, is very good.

4. I just finished reading the quote. Since when does ROH have television internationally?

Website. You can become a ringside member and watch ROH every Saturday when the shows are scheduled to air, or you can become a GA member, which is free and watch them on delay every Thursday. That is how I watch.

Talent-wise? I'm seeing Steen, Lethal, Elgin, Benjamin, Haas & Briscoes. Am I right?

Do you actually watch Ring of Honor? And when I ask that I mean consistently, not watching it once every six months and claiming to know who's talented and who's not, I mean legit watch it?

Kevin Steen is a good wrestler, great talker on the microphone, debatable look. Roderick Strong is a great wrestler, poor talker, okay look. WGTT are one of the best tag team's going, without a doubt. The Briscoe's can still cut some of the most hilarious yet convincing promo's going, as wrestlers they've proven that when push comes to shove they are impressive. Richards and Edwards, former World Champions, Best in the World 2011 had them as the Main Event and it broke the iPPV record. Don't need an argument here, both have improved on the microphone, whether their in-ring styles are too "MMA" or not is irrelevant, as wrestlers they are two of the best going e.g. Davey's work in Japan, Eddie's match with Homicide from Best in the World.

The fact you listed Jay Lethal makes me question whether you have enough knowledge on the product to discuss it. Lethal may be good in the ring and good when speaking, but he had a poor run as ROH TV Champion and since then is trying to find some stable footing. Still a good talent though. The Young Bucks are a great tag team, they can't speak for shit but when it comes to wrestling, nobody can question the entertainment they bring.

Michael Elgin is a future ROH World Champion and I'd even go on record to say future WWE Superstar. He has the look, he has immense speed, he has brute strength, he can speak when given the chance and his wrestling ability for a man of his size is admirable. Case in point, his match with Davey which has received very positive reviews plus his match with Finlay from BiTW two weeks ago.

Adam Cole was rumored to be on WWE's radar, and considering his performance from BiTW, which again has received a lot of positive reviews, and the fact he is now ROH TV Champion, I rest my case on whether he has talent. Dude has the look, can go and has little issue speaking. Mike Bennett is someone who looks as though WWE created him, his matches with Lance Storm were great, he has a great look, can speak but is what he says is becoming repetitive. Another guy who I'll go on record as saying is a future WWE Superstar.

Arguments can be made for Jimmy Jacobs, Tommaso Ciampa, Rhett Titus who'll now be a singles competitor, Kyle O'Reilly - I didn't even mention El Generico, and so on so forth. So as far as talent, not breaking a sweat in that department.

For every talent they lose, Ring of Honor creates a replacement. It is a consistent pattern in the company. And once again, an INDEPENDENT PROMOTION, TNA is a mainstream promotion. Ring of Honor fans don't give a shit about competing with TNA, we care about what is going on Ring of Honor, we're not on TNA's level, because TNA is national, but we're still producing great PPV's and matches, only issue is things need to revert back to pure wrestling, instead of this hybrid of worked MMA and wrestling.

 

[MCMGfoLife]

Wow, someone didn't take their medicine today. No need to get so pissed about a post on a forum on the internet bub. And by the way, I'm no child and I've been watching wrestling since 1998. I'm a fan of WRESTLING, and I like good, solid workers and matches, like TNA and ROH offer on a weekly basis, rather than 15 meaningless tag matches and watching an announcer and an over the hill wrestler be in a ring for the umpteenth time.

I am not trying to hate on ROH, as I don't hate on promotions unless their pulling a WWE and putting nothing but bs on each and every week. I am only responding to this thread with the information I have read on THIS site. I do not regularly watch ROH since it's NOT AVAILABLE FOR ME TO WATCH WHERE I LIVE. I go to shows when I can here in Chicago Heights, one of their biggest markets, yet they can't get their show on ANY channel out here??? really? that makes sense.

I'm afraid I do know all the names you speak of, so I'm sorry to disappoint you. ROH has some great talent, but the level of talent they have now compared to a few years ago is, in MY opinion (not the absolute truth of the wrestling world, JUST MY OPINION) not quite on the same level. They have good guys, not great guys. I enjoy the matches themselves, but not much else about their product and I really can't stand Cornette.

As far as Madden goes, I pretty much hate the guy. He thinks he knows everything about everything, but when I read other forum threads about the same subject seeming to back his story up, I thought maybe he actually knew what he was talking about. And how about those 2 canceled shows in North Carolina, with no reason given, reported by Wrestlezone?? And I don't remember seeing this Kevin Kelly story you speak of, so maybe link it so I can get that side of the story.

And as far as people leaving, I don't mean Kenny King, and only Kenny King. I'm not a fucking single minded dipshit, sorry to burst your bubble on your high fucking horse you god damn prick. And to the point of the thread itself, how about you answer the thread itself rather than act like some tough guy and tear down someone's opinions? I was answering the OP and what he stated himself. I didn't answer like a prick either with some sort of wrestling god complex. Save your breath next time, cuz you just sound like a 5 year old throwing a tantrum cuz someone doesn't share your same opinions.

Wow, I don't know why I even post on this fucking site anymore. Nothing but pretentious assholes.

 

[ramblinroy682]

I'm a guy that watches all three. I DVR all three and watch them every week, but I don't buy ROH ppvs. I've watched ROH since Bryan Danielson was there and before. I actually bought a few of the PPV's when he was defending the title. There isn't anyone on ROH's roster right now who I could see main eventing for TNA or WWE. There isn't anyone who'd I pay money to watch on TV or $30 to watch in person.

Sure they have some good matches. The WGTT and Briscoes are entertaining. But, you're kidding yourself if you think Kevin Steen, Davey Richards, or Eddie Edwards are putting on the kind of matches that CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, or AJ Styles are putting on. Steen is sloppy in the ring. Davey just isn't that good. He's not as good as the others that have gone on to greatness. And, the one thing you need to move up the ladder is the ability to cut a promo. Davey can't do it. He's boring.

They've lost in the last few years, Punk, Danielson, McGuinness, Joe, Aries, Hero, Claudio, Tyler Black, etc. It's hard to lose 8 of your top guys over the span of 6-10 years and not be affected. They may not have the talent to sustain the loss. TNA would be dumb to sign an agreement where they're viewed as equivalents. If ROH could be viewed as the developmental league and knew that they'd be losing their top talent frequently then maybe. But, their TV deal probably won't allow for that. But their definitely is no war and won't be. ROH isn't capable of that yet.

 

[MrHashasheen]

Snip about ANX

Thanks for sharing that.

Briscoes have admitted WWE have offered them contracts, they've had tryouts, they've gone to Florida, the latest one was Jim Cornette stopped them from leaving which we know is false, because Briscoe's have no desire to work for WWE because of WWE's product, despite the fact Mark stated to PWI magazine if push comes to shove, they'll eventually take the chance.

Interesting.

Oddly enough, I'm the person that posted the video on the forum originally. Ring of Honor claimed they were pulling in one million people, they didn't say America, since then Kevin Kelly has noted that through views of the show on their website plus the average 0.4 that watch the show every week, they are pulling in one million people worldwide. Which for an independent wrestling promotion, is very good.

True enough. One question though. How much is a .4 in American ratings?

Do you actually watch Ring of Honor? And when I ask that I mean consistently, not watching it once every six months and claiming to know who's talented and who's not, I mean legit watch it?

When the Sinclair deal started up I was burnt out from both TNA and WWE and figured I'd give it a shot. Started watching online/following klunder's reviews and I thought a few of the guys were interesting, but the stories generally sucked (in my opinion) and between the weak production skills and my dislike of the main-stays of the main event, I wasn't that drawn in. Followed it irregularily for a couple of months after that, but I gave up on it eventually and I made Superstars my no.1 show (At one point it was a choice between ROH, Superstars and FCW). Made an effort to read whatever threads came up on Wrestlezone though, especially since there were a few people who regularly followed and posted stuff. Right now I'm following Impact Wrestling, then Superstars and occasionally NXT. Thinking taking a look at NWA Hollywood to make it my fifth hour of wrestling, weekly. If I take to it well enough, I'll probably drop NXT again.

Kevin Steen is a good wrestler, great talker on the microphone, debatable look. Roderick Strong is a great wrestler, poor talker, okay look. WGTT are one of the best tag team's going, without a doubt. The Briscoe's can still cut some of the most hilarious yet convincing promo's going, as wrestlers they've proven that when push comes to shove they are impressive. Richards and Edwards, former World Champions, Best in the World 2011 had them as the Main Event and it broke the iPPV record. Don't need an argument here, both have improved on the microphone, whether their in-ring styles are too "MMA" or not is irrelevant, as wrestlers they are two of the best going e.g. Davey's work in Japan, Eddie's match with Homicide from Best in the World.

Was it you who wrote some lengthy posts in Spam about how Strong, Richards and Edwards were more MMA guys than wrestlers to the detriment of ROH, or am I misremembering? Either way, was not a fan of those three or their wrestling styles. Dug some of the ex-ECW/WWE guys though. Loved Shelton back on ECW and Corino's always been an interesting subject since he was supposed to jump to WCW in 2001 and I am and always will have a soft-spot for WCW in it's twilight era.

The fact you listed Jay Lethal makes me question whether you have enough knowledge on the product to discuss it. Lethal may be good in the ring and good when speaking, but he had a poor run as ROH TV Champion and since then is trying to find some stable footing. Still a good talent though. The Young Bucks are a great tag team, they can't speak for shit but when it comes to wrestling, nobody can question the entertainment they bring.

Yeah, lots of draws and DQs and triangle matches before he dropped the belt, right? Can't remember off hand to who, but he was working with Generico, Strong, Ciampa and Bennett, right? Bucks were working as heels after the Booker T handshake thing, I remember that much.

Michael Elgin is a future ROH World Champion and I'd even go on record to say future WWE Superstar. He has the look, he has immense speed, he has brute strength, he can speak when given the chance and his wrestling ability for a man of his size is admirable. Case in point, his match with Davey which has received very positive reviews plus his match with Finlay from BiTW two weeks ago.

Heard about the match with Finlay, meaning to look that up. He's slow-burning to a feud with Truth Martini (his manager) and Roderick Strong.

Adam Cole was rumored to be on WWE's radar, and considering his performance from BiTW, which again has received a lot of positive reviews, and the fact he is now ROH TV Champion, I rest my case on whether he has talent. Dude has the look, can go and has little issue speaking. Mike Bennett is someone who looks as though WWE created him, his matches with Lance Storm were great, he has a great look, can speak but is what he says is becoming repetitive. Another guy who I'll go on record as saying is a future WWE Superstar.

Can't remember Adam Cole off-hand, though I remember when I was still watching Bennett came off as a really bad copy of Cliff Compton in OVW/any generic WWE heel. He's the one with Maria as his IRL girlfriend/manager, right? I'm trying to stick with what I remember and not google anything.

 

[MCMGfoLife]

I'm a guy that watches all three. I DVR all three and watch them every week, but I don't buy ROH ppvs. I've watched ROH since Bryan Danielson was there and before. I actually bought a few of the PPV's when he was defending the title. There isn't anyone on ROH's roster right now who I could see main eventing for TNA or WWE. There isn't anyone who'd I pay money to watch on TV or $30 to watch in person.

Sure they have some good matches. The WGTT and Briscoes are entertaining. But, you're kidding yourself if you think Kevin Steen, Davey Richards, or Eddie Edwards are putting on the kind of matches that CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, Samoa Joe, Austin Aries, or AJ Styles are putting on. Steen is sloppy in the ring. Davey just isn't that good. He's not as good as the others that have gone on to greatness. And, the one thing you need to move up the ladder is the ability to cut a promo. Davey can't do it. He's boring.

They've lost in the last few years, Punk, Danielson, McGuinness, Joe, Aries, Hero, Claudio, Tyler Black, etc. It's hard to lose 8 of your top guys over the span of 6-10 years and not be affected. They may not have the talent to sustain the loss. TNA would be dumb to sign an agreement where they're viewed as equivalents. If ROH could be viewed as the developmental league and knew that they'd be losing their top talent frequently then maybe. But, their TV deal probably won't allow for that. But their definitely is no war and won't be. ROH isn't capable of that yet.

Thank god, someone on here knows what their talking about. The truth hurts, but the truth it is. The talent isn't where it used to be. You can't blame them for trying, but they need to take it back a notch. I mean, they lost their tv deal when they were pretty good and still had some of their top guys, and like Madden said, yeah Madden i know, the fanbase is just not big enough.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

I'm a guy that watches all three. I DVR all three and watch them every week, but I don't buy ROH ppvs. I've watched ROH since Bryan Danielson was there and before.

He was there from the start, hard to not watch something before he was there because it didn't exist.

I actually bought a few of the PPV's when he was defending the title.

You're talking bullshit. You want to know how I know? Ring of Honor's first PPV was Respect is Earned, Bryan Danielson never held the ROH World Championship on an iPay-Per-View event. His reign ended well before they got to Pay-Per-View's. If you're going to make things up at least make it convincing.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

True enough. One question though. How much is a .4 in American ratings?

From what I understand it is somewhere around the 380,000 to 450,000 mark. Ring of Honor's ratings aren't made public. However, ratings started out much better, read the link below if you're interested:

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2011/1...ly-drawing-similar-ratings-to-tna-in-sinclair

When the Sinclair deal started up I was burnt out from both TNA and WWE and figured I'd give it a shot. Started watching online/following klunder's reviews and I thought a few of the guys were interesting, but the stories generally sucked (in my opinion) and between the weak production skills and my dislike of the main-stays of the main event, I wasn't that drawn in. Followed it irregularily for a couple of months after that, but I gave up on it eventually and I made Superstars my no.1 show (At one point it was a choice between ROH, Superstars and FCW). Made an effort to read whatever threads came up on Wrestlezone though, especially since there were a few people who regularly followed and posted stuff. Right now I'm following Impact Wrestling, then Superstars and occasionally NXT. Thinking taking a look at NWA Hollywood to make it my fifth hour of wrestling, weekly. If I take to it well enough, I'll probably drop NXT again.

See, now unlike the guy who claims to have watched ROH PPV's which featured Danielson defending the belt, despite the fact he never did, or the Motor City dirt sheet reader, I respect your honesty Hashasheen, you don't bullshit about it, which is respectful, unlike the other two who have no earthly idea what they're talking about. And I agree, production is poor, they need to fix that, as are some storylines. The storyline with Steen is driving them at the moment, once that concludes, It'll be interesting to see what they do.

Was it you who wrote some lengthy posts in Spam about how Strong, Richards and Edwards were more MMA guys than wrestlers to the detriment of ROH, or am I misremembering? Either way, was not a fan of those three or their wrestling styles.

Probably was. I'm not a fan of the MMA elements being brought into the company, but I have a feeling they're noticing it failed. I think that is another reason why Mike Bennett gets some props, because he cuts promos running the style down. They need to go back to what made them in the beginning, wrestling.

Yeah, lots of draws and DQs and triangle matches before he dropped the belt, right? Can't remember off hand to who, but he was working with Generico, Strong, Ciampa and Bennett, right? Bucks were working as heels after the Booker T handshake thing, I remember that much.

Yes, yes and yes. Lethal hasn't been as impressive. Had a good match with Rhino recently, that is it.

Heard about the match with Finlay, meaning to look that up. He's slow-burning to a feud with Truth Martini (his manager) and Roderick Strong.

Lowdown started a thread discussing Elgin, he has a very bright future. And when he turns on the House of Truth he'll only rise.

Can't remember Adam Cole off-hand, though I remember when I was still watching Bennett came off as a really bad copy of Cliff Compton in OVW/any generic WWE heel. He's the one with Maria as his IRL girlfriend/manager, right? I'm trying to stick with what I remember and not google anything.

Again, that is respectable. I hate people who Google shit and think it's right, or listen to Mark Madden, who as Gabe Sapolsky the founder of Ring of Honor stated, has not got a freaking clue about the company. Gabe also reassured fans that despite him having no involvement with ROH anymore, if it were going down the tube, he'd be informed, and he'd probably step in.

Bennett is doing rather well. He is slowly earning fans respect. I liken him to Tommy Dreamer when Dreamer first started in ECW, people didn't like him because he embodied everything ECW didn't want or like, Bennett basically embodies everything Ring of Honor is not known for. Flash, the big look, the hot girlfriend, the coach, the arrogance in promos etc, etc. But he is growing on people.

 

[MrHashasheen]

From what I understand it is somewhere around the 380,000 to 450,000 mark. Ring of Honor's ratings aren't made public. However, ratings started out much better, read the link below if you're interested:

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2011/1...ly-drawing-similar-ratings-to-tna-in-sinclair

Thanks for the link and the ratings mark. Always interesting to hear the internal system of a wrestling company.

See, now unlike the guy who claims to have watched ROH PPV's which featured Danielson defending the belt, despite the fact he never did, or the Motor City dirt sheet reader, I respect your honesty Hashasheen, you don't bullshit about it, which is respectful, unlike the other two who have no earthly idea what they're talking about. And I agree, production is poor, they need to fix that, as are some storylines. The storyline with Steen is driving them at the moment, once that concludes, It'll be interesting to see what they do.

*shrugs* What's the point of pretending you know more than you do to bolster an argument on the internet? Steen's place in the main event has piqued my interest, but it's like the Summer of Punk on paper: One interesting thing doesn't carry the whole show.

Probably was. I'm not a fan of the MMA elements being brought into the company, but I have a feeling they're noticing it failed. I think that is another reason why Mike Bennett gets some props, because he cuts promos running the style down. They need to go back to what made them in the beginning, wrestling.

Yes, yes and yes. Lethal hasn't been as impressive. Had a good match with Rhino recently, that is it.

I was going to say I was surprised that Rhino was in ROH (last word I recalled was Juggalo wrestling), but then I remembered watching a Nana video introducing him to ROH.

Lowdown started a thread discussing Elgin, he has a very bright future. And when he turns on the House of Truth he'll only rise.

Will have to make time to watch his Finlay match then. Is Finlay still a good brawler?

Again, that is respectable. I hate people who Google shit and think it's right, or listen to Mark Madden, who as Gabe Sapolsky the founder of Ring of Honor stated, has not got a freaking clue about the company. Gabe also reassured fans that despite him having no involvement with ROH anymore, if it were going down the tube, he'd be informed, and he'd probably step in.

Google/Dirtsheets/Wikipedia won't give you everything a weekly following would. And speaking of Gabe and dirtsheets, how the heck could he step in? Didn't he leave after a bad split with Silkins or something?

Bennett is doing rather well. He is slowly earning fans respect. I liken him to Tommy Dreamer when Dreamer first started in ECW, people didn't like him because he embodied everything ECW didn't want or like, Bennett basically embodies everything Ring of Honor is not known for. Flash, the big look, the hot girlfriend, the coach, the arrogance in promos etc, etc. But he is growing on people.

So... Shane Douglas 2.0?

 

[The Dragon Saga]

*shrugs* What's the point of pretending you know more than you do to bolster an argument on the internet? Steen's place in the main event has piqued my interest, but it's like the Summer of Punk on paper: One interesting thing doesn't carry the whole show.

Dude I've been on wrestling forums for six years, I still ask myself that question. Just people wanting to come across knowledgeable, when if they truly wanted that, they ought to watch the show.

I was going to say I was surprised that Rhino was in ROH (last word I recalled was Juggalo wrestling), but then I remembered watching a Nana video introducing him to ROH.

He is a member of the House of Truth now, but hes been pretty good since he debuted. Old school Rhino.

Will have to make time to watch his Finlay match then. Is Finlay still a good brawler?

Hasn't really had the chance to get into a physical brawl. Elgin usually dominates his opposition, so at BiTW, Finlay basically caught Elgin out at every turn. It was a good story, Elgin picked up the win, but Finlay looked strong.

Google/Dirtsheets/Wikipedia won't give you everything a weekly following would. And speaking of Gabe and dirtsheets, how the heck could he step in? Didn't he leave after a bad split with Silkins or something?

Gabe is known for being good in the financial department, he still likes/watches Ring of Honor, just isn't involved backstage.

So... Shane Douglas 2.0?

Not really. Hard to explain. If you watch a couple of his promos you may understand. He gets a lot of heat, so more power to him.

 

[Lowdown]

There's no shame if you're ignorant to certain aspects of these promotions, just so long as you don't fake like you know what's up like Dragon Saga has stated. Just like I never follow the ratings systems for ROH or TNA, I get most of the info from these sites and forums. I do like ROH from a talent standpoint, but a select few. Mark Madden did a column recently about having Kevin Steen as the top guy even though he doesn't fit the mold, or as he described "a champ that looks like myself" (not verbatim). I'll agree that Steen isn't the best all around wrestler, but I enjoy his mic work compared to Davey Richards. And the weekly TV show does remind me of the old NWA and AWA broadcasts from the 80's. Its hard to say from my standpoint who the fans want to see in ROH. I hear quite a lot of pops for Steen and maybe the Briscoes, but that's all I can think of. Like Saga said, I'm kind of a Elgin mark, if ROH would fold, not that I want it to, I'd like to see Elgin in TNA since I gave up watching WWE.

 

[MrHashasheen]

He is a member of the House of Truth now, but hes been pretty good since he debuted. Old school Rhino.

Whose in HoT right now? Strong, Elgin, Rhino & Headbangers? Is the Embassy dead at this point?

And the weekly TV show does remind me of the old NWA and AWA broadcasts from the 80's. Its hard to say from my standpoint who the fans want to see in ROH. I hear quite a lot of pops for Steen and maybe the Briscoes, but that's all I can think of. Like Saga said, I'm kind of a Elgin mark, if ROH would fold, not that I want it to, I'd like to see Elgin in TNA since I gave up watching WWE.

More AWA than NWA I'd wager. NWA was varied from territory to territory. AWA was all technical wrestling thanks to Verne Gagne.

 

[The Dragon Saga]

Mark Madden did a column recently about having Kevin Steen as the top guy even though he doesn't fit the mold, or as he described "a champ that looks like myself" (not verbatim).

Funny thing about his "editorial," he slams Steen for looking different and then he calls everyone on the roster "cookie cutter," basically the entire thing was him stating something, then backtracking his statements. Mark Madden is an idiot anyway, nobody should believe a word he says, unless he is reporting a price cut at Burger King.

Whose in HoT right now? Strong, Elgin, Rhino & Headbangers? Is the Embassy dead at this point?

That is House of Truth, with Headbangers as the Guardians of Truth. I feel as though they could have found two better performers to fill the role, like The Bashams, but I don't book the show, so.

Ernesto Osiris, Mia Yim, Robert D. Evans, and Tommaso Ciampa are Nana's Embassy, with the odd special appearance usually turning out to be a member.