Slyfox you seem to be completely forgetting all of the politicking that Hogan did, which is the thing he's famous for among those in the know on the matter. Nobody was more of an asshole and is more of an asshole backstage in the history of this biz then Hulk Hogan. Whether it be demanding outrageous sums of money for a twenty minute TV appearance, using his creative clause in his contract to never lose a match cleanly in his WCW days, or the fact that once he got that spotlight in WCW he held onto it for dear life and absolutely refused to let Bischoff or Russo even think about putting the younger guys like Benoit & Guerrero in the main event.
I'm not forgetting the politicking he did, but so did Ric Flair. And, Hogan was given that right in WCW by Eric Bischoff. Now, how many people are willing to damage their credibility and ability to make big money, when they have the power not to? I know I wouldn't. Don't blame Hogan because he was doing what was right for him and his family. And, I don't blame Flair for doing the same. The point is that you can't decide for either one, because they both did it, and did it hardcore.
And to say that Ric Flair had the same chance that Hogan did in his very short WWF wrong is just not true. By the time Flair came in Hogan was already built as the superman mega face for a good seven or eight years---there was no way in hell that anyone was going to be taking that place from him. If Flair had come to the WWF in say, 1983 right before Hulkamania and was given that chance, I think he could've easily carried the company and made it just as good as it is today, albeit most likely in a heel role.
But, why not? Why could Ric Flair not have done what he did in the NWA? It's not like Flair was a super babyface. If it was Sting we were discussing instead of Flair, I might agree with you. But Flair was the ultimate heel, not the ultimate face. There should have been no reason that he could not have come in and been big, like he was in the NWA. The reason he didn't, was because he could never get the fans to buy into his style, and he could never change or adapt his style. I mean, the guy uses the same style now that he did back in the 80s, and carries many of the same spots.
Those matches of Hogan's you listed, while all entertaining and exciting, were not exactly wrestling clinics. Especially Hogan-Andre, the only attraction of that match is story and the feud behind it, just like almost all of Hogan's matches. You can't honestly name a single match that Hogan wrestled in that is a classic in terms of wrestling, that would appear on some "Best Matches Ever" comp. He just hasn't had those kinds of matches since his days in Japan, while Flair was famous for putting on hour long wrestling clinics that would leave both men and the crowd exhausted from all of the great action they just saw.
Well, ok, you're talking about something different. You're not talking classic matches, you're talking about 5 star match candidates. The two are different.
But, no, Hogan probably never had a 5 star match in the United States. But, he did have classic matches. And personally, I would take Hogan vs. Rock over just about any Flair match I've ever seen (with Savage vs. Flair from WM8 coming close). But, there are more things that make a great professional wrestler than having a couple of five star matches.
When I say that Flair had a larger impact on the business as a whole, I didn't just mean in terms of commercial marketability of the WWE. Sure, people know who Hogan is over Flair any day, but when you ask the wrestlers who's the best of all time, they're going to say Flair and not Hogan. What wrestlers have been influenced so much by Hogan that they entered the business? Big Show? John Cena? Woah, what a list of legends there. While Flair was the direct influence for guys like Triple H. In terms of contributions to the SPORT of wrestling, in terms of whos put on more classic matches, Flair wins hands down and very easily.
Wait...are you trying to tell me that Hulk Hogan was not responsible for some of today's current crop of wrestlers? Seriously?
And, by the time John Cena retires, or even gets to Triple H's age...he will be as big of a legend, if not bigger, than Triple H is now. It is very ironic that you mention Triple H and Cena in the same thought. Because they are VERY similar in the way they are booked and tried to make credible. And, really, very similar in terms of how the crowd receives them. VERY similar.
While in the WWF there were tons of big name stars like Savage, Andre, Warrior, Sgt. Slaughter, and Bob Backlund at the height of Hogan's time, the NWA had only a small handful of even semi-recognizable names. All you really had was Ric Flair and maybe Dusty Rhodes for your star power, and Flair carried that company on his back all through the eighties until they were sold.
But, the NWA was inferior to the WWF by 1984 or 1985. And, Flair was only part of what carried the NWA. The Four Horsemen helped carry the NWA, as well as Rhodes.
He didn't exactly hold the title hostage either, he had put down a 15,000 dollar deposit(I believe thats the sum of money that was requried) to even hold onto the belt, and they refused to pay him back the money when he moved to the WWF. Finally it had to be settled in a lawsuit. If someone owed you 15 grand, odds are you're not going to give them back the only thing you have that can help you get back that 15 grand.
Actually, this is only part true. The NWA was wanting Flair to take a pay cut and drop some of the power he had, particularly his power of booking. I have even heard that they wanted him to change his appearance some. Flair flat out refused and he was fired. Thus, the belt was nothing more than a pawn in a fight between two headstrong people, both of whom thought they were right. And, I believe the actual amount for deposit was $25,000.
And to say that Flair spent little time in WCW before Hogan showed up isn't exactly true. He went right back to the WCW when he left the WWE in 92/93, and was there until it's last days. If it wasn't for Flair's early matches in WCW, I'm not even sure they would've had the star power to go on.
Flair came back to the WCW in February 1993 and Hogan was signed in June 1994. So, there was one year. Also, WCW didn't exactly take off with the return of Hulk Hogan. It wasn't until the Hogan heel turn and the NWO that WCW became the big company in America. Hogan was the reason WCW was big.
Overall for me when it comes down to it, yes Hogan had a larger impact on the business in terms of commerciality(if thats a word)
If it wasn't a word before, it is now!
Flair had the much larger impact in terms of wrestling. And for me, thats what its all about. Not how many arenas you sold out or how many people you entertained as Hogan did, but how many matches you can show wrestling fans of this era and make them still say "Holy shit!" without any of today's spotfest matches or chairs or tables. He'd amaze you just on his skills alone.
First, I'm not sold on Flair's "great" wrestling ability. I think it was more the great abilities of guys like Rhodes and Steamboat and Funk that made those matches great. They were the ones that adapted to the Flair style of match. When you watch those guys wrestle, generally they had a variety of styles they used, depending on the opponent. For the most part, Flair worked the same style of match, the same style he uses today.
I also think Bret Hart details Flair's abilities VERY well on his website. I'd link the page I'm referring to, but not sure if it's allowed??
And, explain to me how Flair's wrestling impacted the business. Don't get me names who were inspired, give me people who have taken what Flair did in matches and made it their own.
