A Response To SlyFox...
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the reason he got the last match was because Hogan was teasing retirement due to the federal investigation into steroids in WWE. McMahon was sending everyone away including Hogan and Piper.
Source? The national steroid indictment and subsequent trial were heavily covered in the mainstream media. I read newspapers, The Pittsburgh Post Gazette covered the story and stated as much in separate related articles in 1993-94.
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Hogan did the same thing at SummerSlam 2006 when he asked that his "legend vs Legend Killer" Match with Randy Orton be bumped to the mid card because he did not think his match would be preceived well if he followed Flair/Foley or the DX/McMahon cage match.
Source? This website reported this - If you disagree talk to the webmasters
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He knew his limitations and played to them. That makes him smart but not a great wrestler.
Source? You doubt this statement ? The wrestling world is full of articles and books from everyone and their mother that echo this sentiment, Hogan was a great markter of himself
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You make all these statements, but mostly you are talking out of your ass.
[/I] I love how your responses include personal insults. Obviously you've never read a magazine in your life or done one single tidbit of research into your talking points smart guy...read on. Idecided to address you the same wayyou address other posters here...
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Originally Posted by FlairFan2003 View Post
Flair was a huge draw. For most of the 1980's WWF shows were consistently outdrawn by NWA shows headlined by Flair in the Carolinas, Georgia, Kentucky, Tennessee, and The Virginias. Even with McMahon's promotional machine and Hogan on the card WWE shows did not compete with the NWA in those areas.
OOOOH.
Skyfox Resposne:The NWA, which used Ric Flair to work matches against the regional top draw, outdid the WWF in 7 out of 48 states. Well, maybe we should re-think this here.
Hell, Ric Flair was the biggest draw in the NWA. Nobody is denying that. But being the biggest draw in the NWA is like being the biggest draw in ROH right now. Still doesn't mean anything. And when you figure that Ric Flair never worked consistently on a national scale, or in one place, AND was always wrestling a promotion's top draw, I think it kind of makes sense that he would be the big NWA draw. I mean, he got to face every promotions best draw.
Wow, seven out of 48 states - hey smart guy, when did WWE start running shows nationwide, they didn't have a consistent nationwide touring schedule until the late 80's, well into Hulkamania. NWA shows draw as well if not better than they did for most of the decade in the Carolinas, Georgia, VA, WV, Kentucky, Tennessee, Texas, pretty much everything under the mason dixon line. Maybe if you read a book about the wrestling business you would know the specifics of the national expansion and attendance figures. Maybe you should visit a bookstore and learn to read.
As for the ROH comment, that's ridiculous, according to WWE releases in 2003 Flair regularly defended the NWA title in 28 states, Canada, South America, Japan, and parts of Asia as well as less frequent trips to New York and New Jersey (WWE backyard). This was from WWE, like that source!!!
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FlairFan:Second, the highest rated wrestling show on TV for most of the 1980's was was WCW Sat Night on TBS, far out distancing Hogan and company on USA network. Hogan and Andre did do a major rating for their Friday Night Prime Time re-Match but subsequent WWE prime time ventures failed even with Hogan on the card.
SkyFoxx:Not a single WCW Sat Night came close to competing with Saturday Night Main Event. Of which, Hogan was on the majority of those.
Hmmmm...maybe you should check Pro Wrestling Illustrated's TV reports from the the 1980's, they stated pretty clearly that SAT Nite wrestling on TBS was the highest rated weekly wrestling show in the mid to late 1980's (with Flair the centerpiece almost every week). They also compared the ratings periodically to Sat Nite Main Event on NBC and they were often equal or slightly higher.
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Third, Hogan gets a lot of credit for the WWE expansion in the 1980's that he does not deserve.
SkyFoxx:You're kidding me with this right? Hulk Hogan WAS wrestling in the 1980s. I mean, not just the WWF, WRESTLING. Hulk Hogan was as synonymous with wrestling in the 1980s and Kleenex is to tissue wipes. So you're saying that McMahon had nothing to do with WWE expansion, hmmmm, I bet alot of ppl agree with that lunacy
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Hogan rarely wrestled more than 6 or 8 shows per month once he became big even though WWE ran house shows at least 6 days per week, plus filmed more than 6 hrs of TV each week (syndication, USA, WWOR).
SlyFox: Could you explain what years you are referring to when you say "became big"? Yeah, try 1984-1990, again read a book. Were you even alive then, what were you, 3 yrs old ?
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Hogan was an infrequent guest on TV, usually for interviews only
SlyFox: And was the only wrestler to do so in front of a national audience.
How odd, Flair was on Good Morning America in the 80's and Savage did lots of national press, including guest stints on Arsenio Hall and Tonite Show. I watched these because unlike you I'm old enough to actually know what I'm talking about.
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and was not a factor in house shows.
SlyFox:His name brought recognition to the WWF. You hear WWF, you think Hulk Hogan, you think greatness. That translates into ticket sales.
Yeah, and when WWE does significant house show business with 24 shows per month, 18 of them without Hogan, I guess all those ppl bought tickets because Hogan wasn't there. Sorry, but you don't buy tickets to an event to see ppl WHO ARE NOT COMING....this may have been your weakest response yet.
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Flair on the other hand was on TV and doing house shows 5-6 times per week. WWE had a great promotional approach courtesy of Vince McMahon that enabled them to be make superstars and be popular even though Hogan was not not around that much. Flair on the other hand was the most visible main event star during the NWA's heyday early to mid 80's and appeared on virtually all of their TV programing weekly.
SlyFox: Their programming was regional programming. WCW Sat Night did not feature Flair regularly until the late 80s if I'm not mistaken. And tell me, once Flair was on TV to a wider audience consistently, what happened to him? His drawing power decreased, fans got tired of him, and he wasn't as effective. Go figure. Well you're wrong...WCW SAT Nite was built around Flair from 1983 on. I started watching in 1985 because Hogan BORED ME TO TEARS but I'm sure an astute person like you probably has loads of info on the subject. Flair vs the Russians was the centerpiece of their summer 85 programming, replaced by Flair breaking Rhodes leg leading to Starrcade. Flair's Great American Bash Challenge from 1986 thoroughly dominated programming, as did Nikita Kolloff's face turn and subsequent challenge to Flair that fall. 1987 programming was built around Flair's feuds with Barry Windham and the Garvins and his possible retirement if he could not regain the title. 1988 programming tilted heavily around Flair Sting and Flair/Luger, more than any other matches. 1989 was all about Flair/Steamboat, Flair's broken neck, Flair/Funk, and at the end of year Flair/Luger and Flair's recruitment of Sting into the Horsemen. And TV ratings for this NATIONALLY BROADCAST PROGRAM increased almost every year, with a major spike in 1989.
SkyFox:Then he went to the WWF in late '91. How well did he do there? Was he a big draw? Or did he flop? Yeah, I'm going with a flop. WWF was a nationally broadcasted program. Are you starting to see the similarities?
Not quite, Hogan-Flair matches did well for WWE as did Flair-Savage. The real business decline started with the New Generation and Brett Hart as WWE went thru growing pains trying to promote new talent. I can tell you here in Pgh in 1992 WWE shows in Jan & June without Flair drew less than 7,000 and shows in Nov 1991 and Feb 92 drew 11,500 and 13,000 respectively. I know because I was here and the Post Gazette mentioned the attendance figures in a 1993 article related to the steroids indictment.
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Fourth, Hogan rarely wrestled during the NWO heyday either, even less than he did during his Hulkamania days a decade earlier. In 1998, WCW did PPV events every month. How many times did Hogan wrestle, maybe 4 ? He faced Jay Leno, particiapted in a War Games, fought Ultimate Warrior, and had a re-match with Sting. WCW did big business all year with Hogan basically participating in about a third of their shows. Kevin Nash was the public face of the NWO and he and Scott Hall did the bulk of the matches against the WCW roster along with Savage. In 1997, WCW's biggest year during the NWO storyline, how many time did Hogan wrestle on TV ? Did ever wrestle on TV that year ? The only time I remember him actually wrestling on Nitro in 97 was when he lost to Lex Luger that year.
SkyFox: Well, duh? Why would you have your biggest draw wrestle on free TV, when you want to get fans to pay for it? That's stupid. But, was Hogan not on the majority of Nitros, both in 96 and 97? Umm, yeah. Was he their biggest draw? Umm, yeah. Hmmm...so WWE was successful in the Monday Night War because The Rock, Steve Austin, and Shawn Micheals rarely wrestled on TV and often didn't appear at all., is that your argument ? I guess it must have been all those Marc Mero and GoldDust matches that helped elevate WWE in 1998-99, certainly by your logic you wouldn't even put ppl the fans want to see on your programs.
SkyFox: Now, let's go through the PPVs. Did he wrestle on 5 of the last 6 PPVs of 1996? Umm, yeah. Was his match the big draw? Umm, yeah. Was the WCW title considered the most important thing in wrestling? Umm, yeah.
On to 1997. Did he appear in the first 3 PPVs of the year? Umm, yeah. Did he still appear on 8 PPVs that year? Umm, yeah. Was his feud with Sting the biggest drawing angle of the 1990s to that point? Umm, yeah. Yeah, and what were the buyrates...didn'tJan 97 NWO Souled Out PPV tank, it certainly didn't do as well as Jan 98 Souled Out PPV with featured Flair/Hart and Svagae/Luger as the headline matches - maybe you should check the multitude of websites and books that list PV buyrates from this time.
Skyfoxx:On to 1998. Did he appear in 8 of the first 10 PPVs of the year? Umm, yeah. Was his feud with Sting driving Nitro for the first two months of the year? Umm, yeah. Was his celebrity matches not the focus of WCW in 98? Umm, yeah. Look how good that did for business, WCW business declined steadily throughout 1998, again check any of a number of books and websites that chronical this stuff. The only real uptick in business came in the fall leading to Starrcade when FLAIR was the headliner with his fued with Bischoff, Goldberg and Nash was the World Title match everyone was waiting for, and Hogan disappeared after Oct.
Skyfoxx:So, basically, what we've determined is that you're just making stuff up to suit your case. Actually, it looks like you're the one who makes stuff up. Maybe you should read once in awhile.
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When business started to decline after the spring of 99 Hogan did wrestle on TV more often, although it didn't generate the numbers he would have liked. Nitro won the ratings 83 consecutive weeks and Hogan probably wrestled on maybe a tenth of those shows. Certainly he was not a factor in WCW's PPV growth during that time since he only appeared in about a fourth of those. I wonder how may RAW PPV's will be held this year with a healthy HHH and John Cena just chosing not to wrestle ?
Skyfoxx: I love how you make up information, just so you can make a case. I've already shown how he wrestled on most of the PPVs. And I've already explained why you don't have your champion wrestle on free TV. However, was Hogan not on TV most of the time? Of course he was. Was he not the big draw to WCW? Of course he was. Hmmm, I was watching WCW in 1998 and I don't remember Hogan wrestling on every PPV, I do remember Nash, Sting, and Goldberg though....maybe you'd like to verify this ? Again, were you even watching wrestling then or just making stuff up? Plus, wasn't Goldberg the biggest draw in WCW in 1998, second only to Austin natiowide. I seem to vaguely remember this....
Skyfoxx: And when Hogan was taking WCW from a company losing $5 million a year to a company making $300 million (Controversy Creates Cash) a year, where was Ric Flair? Hmm, when WCW started losing money Ric Flair was in WWE!!!! He returned in 1993, business went significantly and the company turned a profit in 94 and 95. The WCW upswing had already started when Flair returned. Again, check any number of places detailing TV ratings and PPV buys, including Pro Wrestling Illustrated.
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No doubt Hogan has been successful. However, ppl can't take away from the role Vince McMahon's promotional genius played in the WWE expansion. PPl cetainly can't place the lions share of credit for WCW's success with the NWO on Hogan since he wasn't wrestling that much. That would be like saying Flair made Evolution big, he certainly helped but since he rarely wrestled any matches during that time you can't give him more credit than HHH or Batista or even Orton, they fought almost all the matches.
Oh, so because he didn't wrestle in matches every week, he cannot be a draw?
SkyFoxx:Are you telling me, then, that the Undertaker is not a big draw for the WWE? Because, how often do you see him wrestle for free? Obviously, the Undertaker cannot be a factor in the WWE's success, because he doesn't wrestle on free TV very often. Your position is ludicrous, and reeks of desperation.
Yeah, nobody here would doubt that Taker, after nearly 20 years geting close to 50 yrs old STILL WRESTLES ON TV more often than Hogan in the 1980's. Simply put, your drawing power isn't worth much when you're never on. WWE shows did major business WITHOUT Hogan ....they didn't exactly lose money with Randy Savage in 1988.
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Hogan is clearly the best at protecting his image, but Flair was the more influential wrestler by far. I don't fault Hogan, wrestling is a tough business and he did well with limited abilities. There are no pensions to fal back on or unions backing your play so you have to manipulate mgt and take care of yourself the best you can. Hogan was a genius at this. Flair's character and performances have made him, not Hogan, the guy today's stars look up to and emulate. Nobody ever compares The Rock, HHH, HBK, or Y2J to Hogan. The fact that Flair earned a reputation for being more of a company guy than Hogan has cemented his status with his peers. Still, as a business man Hogan is terrific, kinda like HHH but with less in ring ability. Flair was the bigger wrestler, his influence is far wider on today's product.
I don't even know what to say to such blatant bias.
SKYFOXX: The wrestlers who are actively participating in the WWE today have Hogan to thank for making the WWF such a household name. Those wrestlers like Jericho, Benoit, Eddy, etc. all have Hulk Hogan to thank for making WCW big enough to afford to hire them and give them national TV jobs.
The simple fact is, had not the WWF hired Flair back in 02, and had he not been such great friends with Triple H (if you want to talk politics, let's talk about how Flair became so buddy buddy with such an influential member backstage. My, how convenient it is that Flair became friends with the husband of the bosses daughter. But, no, politics had nothing to do with that, right?), then Ric Flair would have been left as a minor memory in the course of professional wrestling. You talk about the promotional machine that the WWE is, there is no better place to look first than to see what the WWE has done for Ric Flair. They took a man who was of minor importance from 1990 on, and made fans think he was actually this huge superstar. You want to talk about promotion, let's start with Ric Flair. This just reeks of jealousy...It's funnyhow ppl in WWE who supposedly are not in HHH's circle like Cena, Edge, Taker all pay hommage to Flair and his influence and contribution to the business. As far as the minor influnece comment, a strong case could be made that Hogan needed Flair to remain viable in the 1990's. Hogan drew horribly in WCW battling Beefacke, Earthquake, and vader in 1994 and 1995 when Flair was not around. Check the numbers. The upswing in PPV buys that started with Flair and Starrcade 93 ended after he left following Haloween Havoc 1994. TV ratings also declined in his absence. WCW brought Flair back, and according to Mark Madden who often covered the wrestling business in Pittsburgh in the 80's and 90's for the newspapers here, changed their storyline plans for Flair to have him oppose Hogan again because Hulk wasn't drawing against anyone else. Hogan himself talked about in his A&E Biography, addressing that fact fans were no longer interested in him by mid 95 and how he was disappointed Flair was getting cheered over him. Then when Monday Nitro was launched in late 95 Flair and Savage for the World Title and the return of Lex Luger were the centerpieces of the programming, Hogan was either MIA (the suspension angle in late 95 after Savage became champ) or was on the midcard battling Kevin Sullivan's gang while Flair was main eventing almost every week. According to Pro Wrestling Illustrated (their reports on wrestling TV) ratings for Nitro and Raw were dead even from Jan to June of 1996 and Flair wrestled more main events during that time than anyone on those shows. During those six months Flair and Big Show dominated the World Title, Hogan was not even a contender. WCW was so confidant in Hogan that they launched a national program head to head with WWE and made his opponents the centerpiece.
Now there is nothing wrong with Hogan's place in the industry. Sure, other wrestlers do not praise his contributions and writers covering the industry often portray him as selfish and looking out only for himself and not the business as whole. But again, this is a business, Hogan has no pension, ne health plan, no retirement. He needed to do what he could to maximize his income and he did. Politics, sure, but he was shrewd. Flair's contemporaries not only praise him for influencing the business as it is now (not Hogan) but for his willingness to take a proverbial backseat for the good of the company. That is why Flair is held in higher regard than Hogan by both their peers and wrestling journalists. That doesn't diminish Hogan's part in wrestling's initial boom of the 80's (although McMahon deserves a lot of credit). Fact is, Hogan will never be viewed in that kind of favorable light. His actions speak louder than words, but he does have tremedous sucess he can claim as his own.
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