[Official] John Cena Thread

[Slyfox696]

Do you realise how ignorant everything you say makes you?

Do you even understand what the word ignorant means?

I didn't say they were wrong, because I, unlike you, allow people to have their own opinions.

I didn't say you couldn't have opinions. I never said you couldn't have personal tastes. Just that your personal tastes are founded upon misunderstandings.

But at the end of the day, making money isn't the only thing that makes someone good. We've had this debate too many times before..

In the end, yes it does.

Answer me this, because you've yet to do so. Why would people pay to watch someone who wasn't entertaining? And how can someone be entertaining if they are not good?

Sly why don't you listen to yourself? People understand that Vince's main priority is money. We understand that.

Then how do you not understand that Cena deserved to have the belt for 2 and a half years? If you understand that, how can you make statements like this?

Cena will most likely be champ. Not because he deserves it, but because he didn't deserve the Rumble win and he won that. Because he didn't deserve the championship for so long but he got that too.

If you understand that Vince's main priority is making money, how can you make foolish statements like that?

You're contradicting yourself.

Yet just because we see more than that, and like something extra in our favourite wrestlers you hate it. You don't understand the joy of wrestling because all you see is money.

Wrong again. I understand the joy of wrestling so much more than you do because I understand what it is that drives the wrestling business. People get so frustrated because their favorite wrestler doesn't get pushes, or someone they don't like do. I don't get frustrated at all, because I understand the reason for your favorite wrestler working the undercard and for Batista to work the main-event. I don't like Rey Mysterio, but I understand why he is a major player on Smackdown, and one of the best workers on the roster.

I enjoy wrestling just as much as anyone, because I understand what it is I'm supposed to enjoy about wrestling. Which is why watching John Cena hold the title for 2 and a half years thrilled me. Which is why having Batista on Smackdown is a joy. Which is why I still go back and watch Bret Hart matches. Which is why I call The Ultimate Warrior one of the best professional wrestlers.

Because they agreed with you?

No, because the posts showed knowledge and understanding.

I'd actually say it was wider than yours, seeings as I understand everything, yet still have my own opinions.

You listen to nothing. I've been trying to explain to you for days now what it is that drives professional wrestling, and you'll have none of it. I'm trying to explain what actually makes a good wrestler, and you won't listen. You like to stick with your imaginary and subjective ideas of what a good wrestler is, not understanding why Hogan was so good, why Hansen is one of the most respected wrestlers ever, why Brody was loved every where he went, why Bret Hart is still cared about today. You rely on things such as flashy moves to determine what makes a good wrestler, and fail to see the deeper concepts behind quality wrestling.

Do me a favor. Find a match from the old NWA. It is a "I Quit" Cage match between Magnum TA and Tully Blanchard. Here, I've even done the leg work for you...

link: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...deo/x1v021_magnum-ta-vs-tully-blanchard_sport

I want you to watch that and tell me why you think it was or was not a good match. If you think it was, tell me why. If you think it wasn't, tell me why and then explain why this is one of the most respected matches in wrestling history.

You've taught me nothing except how ignorant you can be when it comes to Cena and the WWE for that matter. And the day I agree with you is the day I lose all faith in humanity.

I know. That's the problem. You are unwilling to learn. I attribute that more to your youth than your intelligence. I got news for you hun...you don't know everything. There is so much about wrestling you don't know.

I used to think very similar to you, in what I thought was good, what I liked, what wrestling was about, and so on. But, unlike you, I was willing to listen and read what other people said, and as time as gone on, I've learned more and more about wrestling, what it means, what it symbolizes and what makes it appealing. There are plenty of people in this world who would be more than willing to take the time to help educate you, if you are only willing to listen. Hell, if you don't want it from me, I can direct you to some places to learn, from guys who have forgotten more about wrestling than I'll ever know. I know one guy whose family was in the wrestling business for decades. He's talked with many of the wrestling greats, and I believe even worked with some. I've learned a lot from him, and others who probably actually work in the business, but they'd never say so. For the record, it is the same place that I directed Eazy-Free to.

Just understand that many of things you think and believe about pro wrestling just are not accurate. That is not an insult, just a fact.

 

[HBK-aholic]

I am opinionated, but at least I'm objective. I dislike Batista, but I can accept why he's still main eventing.

You've only just started posting here, I think? This debate has been done to the death and back again. Everyone was very objective beforehand, and even in the Shawn Michaels thread Cena became the main issue of debate.

No, you really don't seem to realise Cena makes them the most money so that's why they run with him on top. It's been said a million times sure, but thats only because Cena haters can't take in what's being said.


OK, well when Cena stops being a top draw and sellings buckets of merch you win. At the moment, you're nowhere near.

You need to listen when I say I do understand that. Hell I got an A* in Business Studies, I understand it. But what you don't seem to realise is Cena doesn't appeal to everyone, yes it may be a minority, but that minority are still open to their own opinions. I aren't a blind Cena hater, I've complimented him plently of times on the way he sells and works an audience. But that doesn't mean I have to be a fan of his.

I agree that it's good for people to form their own opinions. If people didn't, the world would be boring. Its the way you express your opinion that appears as though your Cena hatred clouds all of your judgement.

Everyone seems to say just because of how you feel about a certain wrestler it clouds all judgement. Not true. I feel this way about him for a reason, yet when I explain those reasons everyone says it's because I hate Cena and can't see the good. Yet I'm explining WHY i dislike him whilst doing that.

No it's not the only factor that makes Cena good, but it sure as hell explains why he's te top guy in the company. Do you get that?

Yes. To spell it out for all the Cena fans who don't understand that we know this. I know Cena sells a lot and that is the reason he was champion for so long. I know people would pay to see him and that's whyVince has kept him.
But that doesn't stop me thinking he is boring when he steps inside a ring.

But you all bitch and complain that Cena is on top and always give different solutions, opposing wrestlers who could fill his spot in the ME. The fact is, no-one (at the moment) can fill his shoes.

The WWE hardly collapsed without Cena in it.

Good to hear you have your opinions, but let's not let that stop you from being objective now, shall we?

Objective towards what though? Because everything I feel, and everyone else feels about Cena has been discussed countless times in this thread.

I'm sure he gave up on getting you to agree with him along time ago.

Good.

 

[rickyricochet111]

John cena was not a great champion. MVP has been a champion for almost a year (in may) and I have not heard much complaining about him, AND HE'S A HEEL!!!! I'm also sure of if Undertaker was WHC for over a year like cena he wouldn't get booed. But that's just my opinion.

 

[HBK-aholic]

Do you even understand what the word ignorant means?

Lmao, I actually had a strong feeling you were going to say this at least once in this post. Because for some reason you like trying to make people, or me at least, fell stupid in the hope they'll lessen their arguments against you.

I didn't say you couldn't have opinions. I never said you couldn't have personal tastes. Just that your personal tastes are founded upon misunderstandings.

No they aren't. How is me enjoying technical wrestling ability founded upon a misunderstanding?

Answer me this, because you've yet to do so. Why would people pay to watch someone who wasn't entertaining? And how can someone be entertaining if they are not good?

Because some people do find him entertaining. I've never said they didn't. But he bores the hell out of me, and even though I'm in the 'minority', it's getting to be quite a large minority. The numbers of people disliking Cena are growing.

Then how do you not understand that Cena deserved to have the belt for 2 and a half years? If you understand that, how can you make statements like this?

If you understand that Vince's main priority is making money, how can you make foolish statements like that?

Because Vince relied on Cena way too much. Because he isn't the only good thing about the WWE, and because when everyone seemed to think the WWe would crumble without him, it didn't.

Wrong again. I understand the joy of wrestling so much more than you do because I understand what it is that drives the wrestling business. People get so frustrated because their favorite wrestler doesn't get pushes, or someone they don't like do. I don't get frustrated at all, because I understand the reason for your favorite wrestler working the undercard and for Batista to work the main-event. I don't like Rey Mysterio, but I understand why he is a major player on Smackdown, and one of the best workers on the roster.

I enjoy wrestling just as much as anyone, because I understand what it is I'm supposed to enjoy about wrestling. Which is why watching John Cena hold the title for 2 and a half years thrilled me. Which is why having Batista on Smackdown is a joy. Which is why I still go back and watch Bret Hart matches. Which is why I call The Ultimate Warrior one of the best professional wrestlers.

That's it though. Maybe I don't follow what I'm 'supposed' to be in love with by the WWE. Maybe I enjoy making my own mind up and enjoying added pieces other than what the WWE tells me to enjoy.

You listen to nothing. I've been trying to explain to you for days now what it is that drives professional wrestling, and you'll have none of it. I'm trying to explain what actually makes a good wrestler, and you won't listen. You like to stick with your imaginary and subjective ideas of what a good wrestler is, not understanding why Hogan was so good, why Hansen is one of the most respected wrestlers ever, why Brody was loved every where he went, why Bret Hart is still cared about today. You rely on things such as flashy moves to determine what makes a good wrestler, and fail to see the deeper concepts behind quality wrestling.

No sly. You say I don't listen, when all you do is the opposite of listen. Why is it that I can't enjoy EXTRA things that make a good wrestler? Why can'ty I have added criteria that I look at? I aren't denying all those other things make wrestling what it is all about, but why is technical wrestling ability frowned upon by you in the WWE?

Do me a favor. Find a match from the old NWA. It is a "I Quit" Cage match between Magnum TA and Tully Blanchard. Here, I've even done the leg work for you...

link: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevanc...deo/x1v021_magnum-ta-vs-tully-blanchard_sport

I want you to watch that and tell me why you think it was or was not a good match. If you think it was, tell me why. If you think it wasn't, tell me why and then explain why this is one of the most respected matches in wrestling history.

I'll watch it later, I'm going once I've finished this post.

I know. That's the problem. You are unwilling to learn. I attribute that more to your youth than your intelligence. I got news for you hun...you don't know everything. There is so much about wrestling you don't know.

I don't pretend to know it all. Hell not one of us on these forums knows it all. But I do know what I have a strong opinion on and what I don't, and I know why I have those opinions, even if people don't agree with me.

I used to think very similar to you, in what I thought was good, what I liked, what wrestling was about, and so on. But, unlike you, I was willing to listen and read what other people said, and as time as gone on, I've learned more and more about wrestling, what it means, what it symbolizes and what makes it appealing. There are plenty of people in this world who would be more than willing to take the time to help educate you, if you are only willing to listen. Hell, if you don't want it from me, I can direct you to some places to learn, from guys who have forgotten more about wrestling than I'll ever know. I know one guy whose family was in the wrestling business for decades. He's talked with many of the wrestling greats, and I believe even worked with some. I've learned a lot from him, and others who probably actually work in the business, but they'd never say so. For the record, it is the same place that I directed Eazy-Free to.

Just understand that many of things you think and believe about pro wrestling just are not accurate. That is not an insult, just a fact.

I aren't going to change what I personally like though. Because I do see what you mean about psychology in the ring and everything else, and I can see people doing that. I can see people like Cena and Hogan doing that, and I've complimented Cena on it plenty of times, because I think he's one of the best at it. But even knowing that, isn't going to change the things I enjoy about wrestling that maybe others don't. I know wrestlers are judged on their technical abilities by Vince McMahon, because that isn't what it's about to him. But it's still a good part of the WWE, and one I find enjoyable.

 

[Slyfox696]

Lmao, I actually had a strong feeling you were going to say this at least once in this post. Because for some reason you like trying to make people, or me at least, fell stupid in the hope they'll lessen their arguments against you.

Is that a no then? Do you not understand what the word ignorant means?

Because the way you used it against me would suggest that you are mistaken on its meaning.

No they aren't. How is me enjoying technical wrestling ability founded upon a misunderstanding?

Because you seem that the only people with talent are those who wrestle a technical based style.

Which is ironic as HBK hasn't been a technical wrestler in the last 5 years.

There is nothing wrong with technical wrestling. Nothing at all. Just understand that wrestlers can be extremely talented if they don't work a technical style as well. For example, Bruiser Brody was a world class brawler, and was damn good at it. Rey Mysterio Jr. is a world class high flyer/luchador. Those two guys are both EXCELLENT professional wrestlers, but they don't work a technical style of match.

This is where objectivity has to interject. You can like technical matches all you want, but to try and claim someone is bad because they don't wrestle a technical style is not objective. Which seems to be one of your main arguments against Cena being a good wrestler. Conversely, just because someone is a technical wrestler, doesn't make them a good wrestler.

Because some people do find him entertaining. I've never said they didn't. But he bores the hell out of me, and even though I'm in the 'minority', it's getting to be quite a large minority.

That's fine if you don't find him entertaining. But you just said that it's the minority that feels like you do, meaning the majority feel different. And, since he is pleasing to the majority, that means he is entertaining to the majority.

So, again, how can someone suck as a wrestler is he appeals to the majority of wrestling fans?

The numbers of people disliking Cena are growing.

Prove it.

Because Vince relied on Cena way too much. Because he isn't the only good thing about the WWE, and because when everyone seemed to think the WWe would crumble without him, it didn't.

Nobody with any sense ever said that WWE would crumble without Cena. There is not one person in this world that would make the WWE crumble. Not Hulk Hogan, not Steve Austin, not the Rock, not Shawn Michaels, not Triple H, not anyone.

But there are certain individuals who make the WWE more profitable than others. And Cena is one of those guys. Which is why he was given the belt for so long, because Cena was the biggest moneymaker in the company. It's basic business.

You said you passed your business class, so I'll give you this example. Coca-Cola Classic vs. New Coke. Classic is THE thing for Coca Cola, so would it make sense for them to quit marketing that product so hard, and instead focus on New Coke? No, of course it wouldn't, and when they did New Coke bombed terribly.

So it goes with Cena.

That's it though. Maybe I don't follow what I'm 'supposed' to be in love with by the WWE. Maybe I enjoy making my own mind up and enjoying added pieces other than what the WWE tells me to enjoy.

The basic elements of high quality wrestling extend beyond the WWE. The same basic principles in wrestling is what makes wrestling great, no matter which company.

No sly. You say I don't listen, when all you do is the opposite of listen. Why is it that I can't enjoy EXTRA things that make a good wrestler? Why can'ty I have added criteria that I look at? I aren't denying all those other things make wrestling what it is all about, but why is technical wrestling ability frowned upon by you in the WWE?

I never said you can't enjoy whatever you want. In fact, I've said several times that you are free to your own personal tastes, if you want to talk about not listening. But, YOUR personal tastes don't equal good wrestling, just like my personal tastes don't equal good wrestling. But, there are concrete ideas that do make up good wrestling, and you refuse to see them. It's not about you enjoying the "Extra" things, its the fact you don't acknowledge the core principles.

There is nothing wrong with technical wrestling at all. I've never bashed technical wrestling. But, you use technical wrestling as your gauge on, not just what you like, but what is GOOD. And, technical wrestling is not the end all and be all of professional wrestling.

And, like I've said before, the fact that you only consider technical wrestlers to be the skilled wrestlers is indicative of the fact that you have been tricked by the industry.

I'll watch it later, I'm going once I've finished this post.

You won't regret it.

I aren't going to change what I personally like though. Because I do see what you mean about psychology in the ring and everything else, and I can see people doing that. I can see people like Cena and Hogan doing that, and I've complimented Cena on it plenty of times, because I think he's one of the best at it. But even knowing that, isn't going to change the things I enjoy about wrestling that maybe others don't.

That's fine if YOU don't enjoy it. I've said that many times before this post, and in this post, so hopefully you'll understand that. But when you say that Cena is not a good wrestler, then you aren't being objective, because every objective criteria disagrees with that statement.

I know wrestlers are judged on their technical abilities by Vince McMahon, because that isn't what it's about to him. But it's still a good part of the WWE, and one I find enjoyable.

And that's fine. Just understand that there are plenty of styles of wrestling, and guys can be good wrestlers and work with one of those styles. Bruiser Brody can be a good wrestler even though he's a brawler. Rey Rey can be a good wrestler even though he's a luchador. The Undertaker can be a good wrestler even though he's a striker.

Don't use your personal taste of favoring technical wrestling cloud your judgment on quality of wrestlers when they have a different style.

 

[HLOTN]

"You've only just started posting here, I think? This debate has been done to the death and back again. Everyone was very objective beforehand, and even in the Shawn Michaels thread Cena became the main issue of debate."

Yes, I have just started posting here again on a new account. I can imagine this debate has been done to death. You say everyone was objective beforehand... so what about now?

"You need to listen when I say I do understand that. Hell I got an A* in Business Studies, I understand it. But what you don't seem to realise is Cena doesn't appeal to everyone, yes it may be a minority, but that minority are still open to their own opinions. I aren't a blind Cena hater, I've complimented him plently of times on the way he sells and works an audience. But that doesn't mean I have to be a fan of his."

That's perfect. Of course you don't. That's all I was after

"Everyone seems to say just because of how you feel about a certain wrestler it clouds all judgement. Not true. I feel this way about him for a reason, yet when I explain those reasons everyone says it's because I hate Cena and can't see the good. Yet I'm explining WHY i dislike him whilst doing that."

And the reason I'm debating this with you is because of your comments like "Because Cena does suck" and he doesn't deserve to win the championship. Of course he deserves the championship. He's the top guy in the company. Just because he's held the belt for a long period of time doesn't mean he shouldn't hold the title belt, especially if he's still a top draw and actually growing more in the ring as a wrestler.

"Yes. To spell it out for all the Cena fans who don't understand that we know this. I know Cena sells a lot and that is the reason he was champion for so long. I know people would pay to see him and that's whyVince has kept him.
But that doesn't stop me thinking he is boring when he steps inside a ring."

That's fine, but he's clearly not as boring as people believe because whatever you say he garners a wider reception than most on the WWE roster at the moment.

"The WWE hardly collapsed without Cena in it."

No it certainly didn't, but Raw numbers did go down if you look back in the months Cena has been gone.

 

[Eternal Dragon]

Lmao, I actually had a strong feeling you were going to say this at least once in this post. Because for some reason you like trying to make people, or me at least, fell stupid in the hope they'll lessen their arguments against you.

There's no need for Sly to point out stupidty when it's already so rampant in this thread (not that I'm referring to you, just a general perspective).

No they aren't. How is me enjoying technical wrestling ability founded upon a misunderstanding?

Because the misunderstanding is that a technical wrestler must be a good wrestler, when really that's not true. That same misundestanding is also the basis for the majority of Cena hate.

Because some people do find him entertaining. I've never said they didn't. But he bores the hell out of me, and even though I'm in the 'minority', it's getting to be quite a large minority. The numbers of people disliking Cena are growing.

Are they really? It looks more like all those Cena haters who were left bereft when John was injured are returning to open the SAME can of worms over, and, and over again.

Because Vince relied on Cena way too much. Because he isn't the only good thing about the WWE, and because when everyone seemed to think the WWe would crumble without him, it didn't.

There's a REASON why Vince relies on Cena- it's because he delivers. Always has, and always will. How the fans choose to see that is not a reflection of John, but instead their own marred opinions.

That's it though. Maybe I don't follow what I'm 'supposed' to be in love with by the WWE. Maybe I enjoy making my own mind up and enjoying added pieces other than what the WWE tells me to enjoy.

LOL you're making it sound like the WWE is a tyrant. They don't tell us what to enjoy, never really have either.

No sly. You say I don't listen, when all you do is the opposite of listen. Why is it that I can't enjoy EXTRA things that make a good wrestler? Why can'ty I have added criteria that I look at? I aren't denying all those other things make wrestling what it is all about, but why is technical wrestling ability frowned upon by you in the WWE?

Because "added criteria" from fans isn't really accurate criteria, and certainly not a good foundation to judge wrestlers on. That's like if I told my teacher to raise my grade on a project based on my criteria, not theirs. That wouldn't really make much sense now would it?

I can see people like Cena and Hogan doing that, and I've complimented Cena on it plenty of times, because I think he's one of the best at it. But even knowing that, isn't going to change the things I enjoy about wrestling that maybe others don't. I know wrestlers are judged on their technical abilities by Vince McMahon, because that isn't what it's about to him. But it's still a good part of the WWE, and one I find enjoyable.

You don't have to enjoy the WWE, heck you don't have to enjoy John Cena, but claiming he isn't a good wrestler based on personal ideas of what good wrestling is...is not justifiable or true.

Flames Out
Dragon

 

[young_mastermind]

Well, I may be a little new and what-not but I have to agree with many of the opinions on here. I am not a Cena fan. Yes, he makes the WWE a crapload of cash in merchandising but really, the guys not that talented. Same moves, same promos, how he's going to this and that and what-not. Maybe it's that his title reign ran way too long that it got repetitive or something but I gave a sigh of relief when I heard the injury news. It's time for a change but now that he's back, won the Royal Rumble and all that, guess Cena's face is sticking around for a while and a lot of the underrated superstars on Raw won't get their chance to shine.

 

[scsu01]

It's time for a change but now that he's back, won the Royal Rumble and all that, guess Cena's face is sticking around for a while and a lot of the underrated superstars on Raw won't get their chance to shine.

i definitely agree. thats why i cant stand cena. i really thought this hardy/orton feud was cool because it was actually something new..a fresh feud. now cenas back and its practically over. jeff wont win the elimination chamber and now will be stuck to just being the intercontinental champ. now its back to boring predictable ppvs...

 

[Satan's Hockey]

The Royal Rumble tickets went on sale towards the end of December and it sold out in a matter of minutes...fans bought tickets knowing John Cena was out hurt and they had no idea he was going to be at the Rumble. The Royal Rumble sold out because it's the WWE not because of any individual wrestler. Even though Cena brings in the most merch money the WWE will always be around and selling out buildings(unless they royally screw something up). Cena is just another part of the machine that is called the WWE. Cena gets hurt, they insert Y2J and Jeff Hardy and the machine keeps rolling and keeps selling out places and makes money and gets good ratings. Cena really isn't that important to the WWE, just how Undertaker and Batista and HHH and Rey and even Edge aren't either. When all 5 of those guys were out with injuries(some at different times, some at the same time) the WWE kept rolling right along like it almost always has.

 

[dirtyshubb]

LOL you're making it sound like the WWE is a tyrant. They don't tell us what to enjoy, never really have either.

To be honest from some of the stuff i have read it does seem a bit like that. The best example i can think of is from an interview with RVD, when talking about the new ECW and how its not like the original and thats what people want otherwise why would they chant 'ECW, ECW' and do you know what Vince answered with:

"They chant ECW because i have trained them to do that the last 5 years!"

Now what is going through his head i dont know but that does sound to me as 'telling' us what to do.

 

[HLOTN]

"It's time for a change but now that he's back, won the Royal Rumble and all that, guess Cena's face is sticking around for a while and a lot of the underrated superstars on Raw won't get their chance to shine."

The problem is, none of the apparent "underrated" stars on Raw have longevity. Mr. Kennedy's someone with charisma who will be in the main event eventually, but other than that, there's no-one (really, anyway). It would've been nice to see Hardy have a short WWE title reign, but it would've only worked short term. WWE can rely on Cena to deliver as champion because he made them a ton of money as champ. Looking at the wider spectrum, the "underrated" wrestlers who are "better" wrestlers than Cena don't necessarily have what it takes to carry WWE. Possibly TNA, but anyone can do that.

"The Royal Rumble tickets went on sale towards the end of December and it sold out in a matter of minutes...fans bought tickets knowing John Cena was out hurt and they had no idea he was going to be at the Rumble. The Royal Rumble sold out because it's the WWE not because of any individual wrestler. Even though Cena brings in the most merch money the WWE will always be around and selling out buildings(unless they royally screw something up). Cena is just another part of the machine that is called the WWE. Cena gets hurt, they insert Y2J and Jeff Hardy and the machine keeps rolling and keeps selling out places and makes money and gets good ratings. Cena really isn't that important to the WWE, just how Undertaker and Batista and HHH and Rey and even Edge aren't either. When all 5 of those guys were out with injuries(some at different times, some at the same time) the WWE kept rolling right along like it almost always has."

Of course WWE didn't come to an abrupt hault while Cena was out, and no-one expected it to. Raw attandance figures were down though, which was predicted. Cena creates revenue. WWE won't die without him, but having him as their face of the company has proven to be useful in this wrestling drought.

""They chant ECW because i have trained them to do that the last 5 years!"

Now what is going through his head i dont know but that does sound to me as 'telling' us what to do."

Still don't know if you can really count on a bitter RVD to tell the truth.

Vince has always tried to get his favourite stars over who he thinks could make him money, and when it fails, it fails. If the fans don't want something that much, he can't continue (long term). Thats why Cena's at the top. He makes too much money for the company and the simple fact is the Cena haters are still very much in the minority, however it looks on TV with a large portion of the audience booing him. Like I said, a LOT of it is all panto, because it's fun to boo the top guy who's meant to be this generation's super hero babyface.

 

[MattMoses]

Same moves

Compared to who? Who displays a new set of moves in every match? Nobody. His arsenal of moves might not be the greatest, but every wrestler uses the same moves. It really is starting to become a lame argument.

Watch a Triple H match, he's going to use a spinebuster, DDT, High knee strike, falling neckbreaker and a Pedigree.

Watch a Bret Hart match, he's going to a russian leg sweep, inverted atomic drop, a dropick, a piledriver, a backbreaker and a Sharpshooter.

Watch a Cena match, he's going to use a flying shoulder block, sitout hip toss, sidewalk slam, jumping fisherman suplex, spinning powerbomb, the FU and STFU.

We know what moves we are going to expect from every wrestler, and they always use the same moves, every match. Your argument there is weak.

 

[SSJPhenom]

MattMoses

I'm not so sure that the arguement is: Cena uses the same move set every match. We all know what the wrestlers are going to do and when to expect it. We all know that in a Cena match, he is going to be getting his ass handed to him for the majority of the match, only to hit his flying shoulder block, etc, etc, until he wins the match.

I think that the arguement has evolved a bit from that. It has come down to predictability. Everyone that posts on this thread or even visits this site, knows that when Cena's music hit at the Royal Rumble, he was going to win. We all know that he is going to win at No Way Out. We know that he is going to win at Wrestlemania. We pretty much know that every title match that Cena has for the next year at least, he is going to win and if by some miracle he loses, it will not be straight out.

But let's talk about Cena and his move set. You named every move in Cena's bag and I think that's the problem. Those are it. The other wrestlers that you named and the moves that you listed is their finishing set up. The moves that you named for Cena, however, is all the guy can do. There isn't anything in between, except maybe a punch or a clothesline.

At the beginning of Evolution, HHH was winning matches with sleeper holds and trailor hitches. Look at the ever impressive greatest wrestler wrestling today, the Phenom. He has a new submission hold and seems to change his style a little with every reinvention of his persona. I think that's what seperates the greats from the hopefuls. They can entertain any crowd, while the hopefuls are just here and now. John Cena isn't going to make it much longer as the ultimate baby face. The fans don't want it any longer. He gets a hell of alot more boos than he does cheers. The only way that he could be successful at this point is to turn heel and if he brings his ever so talked about move set along with him. He will be hated even more.

Cena's time has come like his entrance music says, but that time has also passed.

 

[MattMoses]

But let's talk about Cena and his move set. You named every move in Cena's bag and I think that's the problem. Those are it.

Off the top of my head, I remember him frequently using a diving leg drop bulldog (top rope Fame Asser), Five Knuckle Shuffle, running neck snap and a twisting belly to belly side slam. And I'm sure there's more. So no, those moves I listed are not every single move in Cena's bag.

The other wrestlers that you named and the moves that you listed is their finishing set up.

What other moves does Triple H use frequently in matches aside from those I listed?

John Cena isn't going to make it much longer as the ultimate baby face. The fans don't want it any longer.

The merchandise sales disagree. He's the WWE's top draw, despite what internet fans think, and what kind of reaction he gets upon his entrance. I'm sure this weeks RAW rating was significantly higher than recent weeks due to Cena's return.

 

[caster troy]

cena can actually perfrom up to atleast 10 moves with my research. ive watched his videos from ovw and they were certainly FU**** terrifying. you cant just make someone champ because you *********e over his defined six pack, on wait thats just vince. if you look at cenas debut against kurt angle i was impressed and for the first time he carried someone over. and this is angle we are talking about.

one thing we do have to give is respect no matter what. john cena was the first face in the wrestling world to to have his ass booed of when he was supposed to be cheered. who elso do you know that happens to. cena sought of brought back the "ATTITUDE" factor in to the company.

the reason why people hate him is because of his style. its quite embarrasing to watch if you notice carefully. he throws a punch like a girl. watch sundays royal rumble to see my point, i personally would be embarrased to step into the ring because hes all over the place, he cant carry a match cause he bores everyone with the SAME OLD SHIT. other wrestlers try to make it realistic.

 

[robwylde90]

cena can actually perfrom up to atleast 10 moves with my research. ive watched his videos from ovw and they were certainly FU**** terrifying. you cant just make someone champ because you *********e over his defined six pack, on wait thats just vince. if you look at cenas debut against kurt angle i was impressed and for the first time he carried someone over. and this is angle we are talking about..

Kurt angle as put a lot of people over. the rock, trips , jay lethal, tomko. christian etc.

one thing we do have to give is respect no matter what. john cena was the first face in the wrestling world to to have his ass booed of when he was supposed to be cheered. who elso do you know that happens to. cena sought of brought back the "ATTITUDE" factor in to the company..

HBK got booed so badly in 1996 I cried with laughter. A hell of a lot worse than Cena does these days.

the reason why people hate him is because of his style. its quite embarrasing to watch if you notice carefully. he throws a punch like a girl. watch sundays royal rumble to see my point, i personally would be embarrased to step into the ring because hes all over the place, he cant carry a match cause he bores everyone with the SAME OLD SHIT. other wrestlers try to make it realistic.

Hey if you want to offer John Cena a free shot at you be my guest. Somehow I dont think you'll be saying he punches like a girl. And anyway I have to point out that its a fake punch, hell pretty much everyones Punches look shit. Excepe Vaders back in the day. Those where goooooooood. Same old shit? Identify this wrestler : High Knee, spinebuster, knee smash, knee drop, pedigree. How about this one? : inverted atomic drop, punches, flying forearm, scoop slam, diving elbow, sweet chin music. Need I give you more examples? Every damn wrestler in WWE does the same signature moves , just like Cena. Get over it.

 

[Grubbs0621]

I think where people have a problem with Cena, is he gets his butt handed to him for most of the match, only to come back hitting those 5 moves back to back to back to win.

The other wrestlers seem to be involved in more matches that go back and forth on offense. Like the HBK/Cena match and the HHH/Cena match at WM. Both of them, I seem to remember Cena having no offense until the last 4 mins of the match or so, and the previous 20 being all the other guy.

 

[watchingandwaiting]

I think where people have a problem with Cena, is he gets his butt handed to him for most of the match, only to come back hitting those 5 moves back to back to back to win.

The other wrestlers seem to be involved in more matches that go back and forth on offense. Like the HBK/Cena match and the HHH/Cena match at WM. Both of them, I seem to remember Cena having no offense until the last 4 mins of the match or so, and the previous 20 being all the other guy.

But in both those matches Cena went over cleanly, so HHH and HBK had to get most of the offense in so they didn't look weak. If the offense had been split 50/50 everyone would be crying about how Cena "squashed" HBK at Wrestlemania. It really is a no-win situation when people will complain that Cena just comes back to win every match when he doesn't do a ton of offense, but complain that he is squashing and burying people when he does get more offense in before the finish.

 

[Jonny B]

MattMoses

I'm not so sure that the arguement is: Cena uses the same move set every match. We all know what the wrestlers are going to do and when to expect it. We all know that in a Cena match, he is going to be getting his ass handed to him for the majority of the match, only to hit his flying shoulder block, etc, etc, until he wins the match.

I think that the arguement has evolved a bit from that. It has come down to predictability. Everyone that posts on this thread or even visits this site, knows that when Cena's music hit at the Royal Rumble, he was going to win. We all know that he is going to win at No Way Out. We know that he is going to win at Wrestlemania. We pretty much know that every title match that Cena has for the next year at least, he is going to win and if by some miracle he loses, it will not be straight out.

But let's talk about Cena and his move set. You named every move in Cena's bag and I think that's the problem. Those are it. The other wrestlers that you named and the moves that you listed is their finishing set up. The moves that you named for Cena, however, is all the guy can do. There isn't anything in between, except maybe a punch or a clothesline.

Cena's time has come like his entrance music says, but that time has also passed.

Isn't this supposed to be where smart wrestling fans come to debate wrestling? Because that entire post was anything but smart...

Sure your extremely correct Cena's moveset is predictable and to a point boring, sure the fact that he will probably win every match between now and the end of time is predictable and damn boring... but what some people (or most in fact) dont seem to realize is that this is not his doing or fault. It is the way the company wishes to book him, it's the way the WWE want him to work and in a way who can blame them?

Now before I start don't get me wrong here I am not comparing Cena to any of these guys because in my mind he is not even on their level. However if you look back at arguably the three top babyfaces in the history of the company Hogan, Austin and The Rock. They were all booked in simular fashion to Cena, they were booked with the odds against them and somehow managed to come out on top pretty much every time (in the end). Who can blame the WWE for trying to replicate that success with Cena? Sure it isn't working but considering the three men I have mentioned have probably made the WWE more money than I would care to count between them shouldn't they try and replicate something of that? Make themselves another megastar that can take the place of these three? Of course they should, it's not Cena's fault that the fans have turned on this method of booking if anything the blame should lay squarely on the booking team for their inability to think of original storylines in which to get Cena over.

If anyone hasn't read it yet I suggest you head to the main page and read a column on Faces a Heels done by one of the WZ columnists because it outlines this point particularly well. Cena originally got over for being a complete badass, much like Austin however the booking team have turned him into somewhat of a corporate puppet. He lost his edge, the edge that took Austin to the brink of being the greatest face in the history of the company... they are marketing him at a younger crowd and thus have toned him down. Is that right? Who knows I'm not looking at the WWE's books right now but to be honest if they were not making a shed load of money they probably would have changed how they book Cena. Is it enjoyable to watch for fans like us? Hell no it isn't... however I can see the logic in booking him the way he is being booked.

Personally I like Cena and I think he cops way too much flak from the IWC when alot of the troubles he has can be attributed to the booking team rather than Cena himself.

 

[OfficerJosh]

I don't personally have a problem with the Cena character. I just thought he would be better suited as a heel. The guy can cut a halfway decent promo, and his ring work has vastly improved. I just don't think that a feud with HHH works as well when Cena is a face.

 

[Skullz Crack'Em]

I don't personally have a problem with the Cena character. I just thought he would be better suited as a heel. The guy can cut a halfway decent promo, and his ring work has vastly improved. I just don't think that a feud with HHH works as well when Cena is a face.

Cena isn't turning heel anytime soon, the WWE has changed drastically in the past two decades. They weren't afraid to turn The Rock or Stone Cold heel in the 90's and early 2000's because the WWE had balls back then. Today, they play it safe by rarely ever taking risks anymore and making it more of a kid-friendly show. John Cena is an idol to 99% of the kids that watch WWE, turning him heel is like turning Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc. into the bad guy, thus resulting in a lower revenue of John Cena mechandise because kids are the main market that wants his stuff(the same goes for Mysterio). Besides, it is too late to turn Cena heel now because WWE has made him into the ULTIMATE face, a heel needs to win by using cheat tactics like eye pokes, low blows, and chair shots, the kayfabe Cena we all know can win a match with his baby toe, so who would actually take Cena as a legitimate heel? Nobody.

 

[robwylde90]

Cena isn't turning heel anytime soon, the WWE has changed drastically in the past two decades. They weren't afraid to turn The Rock or Stone Cold heel in the 90's and early 2000's because the WWE had balls back then. Today, they play it safe by rarely ever taking risks anymore and making it more of a kid-friendly show. John Cena is an idol to 99% of the kids that watch WWE, turning him heel is like turning Superman, Batman, Spiderman, etc. into the bad guy, thus resulting in a lower revenue of John Cena mechandise because kids are the main market that wants his stuff(the same goes for Mysterio). Besides, it is too late to turn Cena heel now because WWE has made him into the ULTIMATE face, a heel needs to win by using cheat tactics like eye pokes, low blows, and chair shots, the kayfabe Cena we all know can win a match with his baby toe, so who would actually take Cena as a legitimate heel? Nobody.

Some pretty good points there man. WWE has basically pidgeonholed John Cena to the point where it would take a stroke of genius to turn him into a credible heel really . The thing thats annoying me now though is that there not just leaving Cena as the face of the show for the kids, there slowl turning the show into an eve bigger joke than it is right now. We have a leprechaun getting more TV time than the WWE champion and the whole tag division is just a punchline as well. I dont blame John Cena for the job he does , he manages to put a least some edge on what is basically the most bland gimmick in the history of the buisness. To turn Cena now wold be financial suicide and Vince has realised that too late. Nice goin Vinny.

 

[Papa Shango]

Now hold on a minute? Why is it impossible to turn Cena heel? So he's the top face in the company. He's a superhero to the children. Some go so far as to say he is a modern-day Hulk Hogan. But hang on... didn't Hulk Hogan turn heel? Wasn't it a huge deal, and isn't it, to this day, still considered one of the biggest moments in the history of professional wrestling. Why,yes, yes I believe it was. And it actually improved the ratings. People started to becomr interested again. Now, I am in no way claiming that a Cena heel turn would be as big as the formation of the nWo, but I think you see my point. Cena definitely has the natural ability to make a heel turn work. The only reason it wouldn't work, is the same reason his current face stint isn't over with a portion of the crowd, and that's because the booking is below average.

 

[Rusty]

This is a tough one, I mean Cena earns lots of money by selling mercandise and is very popular with the fans(young fans in particuliar).. but turning him heel would make his character more interesting and I think it could possibly earn better ratings for the WWE.

However, now is not the right time to turn him heel.. if the WWE wanted him heel for WM24, they would have done it at the Royal Rumble. Cena vs Hardy wuld definately be a money fued. Cena vs Jericho has already been done but it could be even better this time.

Theres not many options for Cena on Raw atm... and I blame all of this on the bookers for not giving us nice long fueds that I love. Cena vs Edge was a great LONG fued that people cared about. Undertaker vs Batista was also a great long fued.

The main problem in the WWE nowadays is that they rush fueds..Cena vs HBK wasnt a long fued.. Cena vs HHH also wasnt long.. Cena vs Jericho wasnt long either. The WWE has to put on longer fueds so that the fans can be more interested and this MIGHT gain more viewers for the WWE. Cena vs Orton can be better and longer, but having a match @ NWO is most likely to end the fued.

What are your thoughts on long fueds?