Intl. Region, Los Angeles Subregion, Second Round: (1) Ric Flair vs. (17) Verne Gagne

[klunderbunker]

This is a second round match in the International Region, Los Angeles Subregion. It is a standard one on one match held under standard wrestling rules. It will be held at the Staples Center in Los Angeles, California.

#1. Ric Flair

Vs.

#17. Verne Gagne

​

Polls will be open for four days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.

Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

What a great matchup. Student vs. Teacher. Flair was trained by Gagne in Minneapolis.

Gagne was the founding father of the AWA, and was it's champion for many years. He also helped train some of the greatest wrestlers of all time, including Flair, Bob Backlund, Curt Hennig, and others. He was also a horrible person who allegedly wanted Iron Sheik to do career ending damage to Hogan's knee when he went to the WWF, a plan that never came to pass. And it was all because Gagne wanted a bulk of Hogan's merchandise sales and payouts from wrestling in Japan.

Ric Flair is, in my opinion, the greatest wrestler of all time. 16 times the world's champion, Flair's beaten them all... Hogan, Race, Rhodes, Steamboat, Sting, Funk, and the list could go on for ages. He also drew major houses in his prime, and led the most influential faction in wrestling history - the Four Horsemen.

Don't get it twisted. Gagne's biggest successes came because he ran the company he wrestled in. Flair's successes came because he was TRUSTED by other companies to carry the ball.

Vote Flair. Woooooooooooooooooooooo.

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

It has to be Flair here. Gagne trained him, so would have more knowledge than most of any weaknesses Flair may have but in the end that wouldnt matter.

Flair is arguably the best of all time, his accolades speak for themselves and he's beaten everyone there is to beat, carrying the NWA title with pride on many occasions. Flair is a true icon of the business and he deserves to progress here. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked to see Flair win the whole damn thing.

 

[Tastycles]

Verne Gagne has been the most popular wrestler in North America during his career, Ric Flair hasn't. The NWA had to create a second tier national title to make sure that Gagne could have something to do that didn't eclipse Thesz. Then he struck out on his own to make a promotion built around him that was very successful. The promotion built around Flair in the 80s was completely decimated by its major opponent. He then went to WWE, got a bit over, but never really made an impact and then he went back to WCW, where he was later eclipsed by people that had left the WWF. Flair is massively overrated, Gagne is massively underrated. Gagne is better and should win.

 

[Thriller Ant]

Verne Gagne has been the most popular wrestler in North America during his career, Ric Flair hasn't. The NWA had to create a second tier national title to make sure that Gagne could have something to do that didn't eclipse Thesz. Then he struck out on his own to make a promotion built around him that was very successful. The promotion built around Flair in the 80s was completely decimated by its major opponent. He then went to WWE, got a bit over, but never really made an impact and then he went back to WCW, where he was later eclipsed by people that had left the WWF. Flair is massively overrated, Gagne is massively underrated. Gagne is better and should win.

I never really looked at Flair's career like that. I might have to do some more research on Gagne, but this has me leaning toward Verne.

 

[HBsam31]

Flair is arguably the greatest of all time. He is 16 times World Heavyweight Champion. That is enough for me. Gagne was on top of his own promotion. He is a legend yes, but it is hardly enough for me to vote him over Flair.

 

[Tastycles]

People who like wrestling, including people in the business, generally like Ric Flair. This is why he is presented and displayed as a legend. Fairweather fans do not give a shit about Ric Flair, this is why he has never affected the ratings and why he is never the featured performer in a promotion that is dominating. Flair was the first WWF Champion not to headline WrestleMania, and one of only 2 in the first 25 WrestleManias. Given that the other exception saw a celebrity fight in the main event, he is the only WWE Champion in the first 25 WrestleManias to have been viewed as less important than members of the roster that were not Champion.

Meanwhile Gagne only was champion in his own company. That may be true of the major title, but for a long period he was also the biggest draw in the United States for the NWA. He then set up on his own and could do successfully because he was so popular.

It's time that the entire wrestling community woke up to the fact that no matter how much you enjoyed 80s NWA wrestling, the rest of the world was watching Hulkamania running wild. Brutus Beefcake in 1987 was watched by a far greater regular audience than Ric Flair at any point in his career.

People say that McMahon never gave Flair a chance. They did, it flopped, and so they gave it to trusted hand Randy Savage, before allowing Flair to transition it to a young untested champion in Bret Hart.

Flair is the wrestling fans' wrestler. Gagne was actually popular. Gagne would win.

 

[It's...Baylariat!]

Instead of highlighting anything Tasty said, I'm just going to make a blanket statement here...

I like Tasty as a poster, even if some of his opinions baffle me. The one's posted here baffle me the most. Tasty, Flair didn't have anything to do with the mismanagement of funds from Jim Crockett Promotions... that was on the promoters. Flair made JCP stay afloat for nearly a decade longer than it should have. Ted Turner bought the promotion and turned it into WCW because of Ric Flair.

As I mentioned before, Gagne had to create his own promotion to market himself. The NWA wasn't willing to put him over Lou Thesz, yet the NWA was willing to put Flair over Harley Race and make him the traveling world champion.

And what's being left out here is that Flair was showcased on NATIONAL TV during his heyday and garnered the biggest ratings for TBS during his prime. Also, many of the gates drawn by Flair were as big, if not bigger than what Hogan drew in the WWF during that same time.

Now, I can concede Gagne was more popular because he was an Olympian and had notoriety before becoming a pro wrestler. Ric Flair was popular because he WAS a pro wrestler.

Also, Flair had nothing to do with his run flopping in the WWF. Vince simply didn't want an outsider being the face of the WWF. Why would he concede Hogan, Warrior, and Savage to someone that gained popularity in the NWA? That had nothing to do with Flair as a wrestler and a popular draw. Hogan wanted to be the main event of Wrestlemania and he held the cards to do so... that's something Flair had no control over.

So what you posted sounds good, but that doesn't mean it's anything close to being true.

Flair's accomplished more, drawn more money, and was more popular as a pro wrestler than Gagne.

 

[Tastycles]

I like Tasty as a poster, even if some of his opinions baffle me. The one's posted here baffle me the most. Tasty, Flair didn't have anything to do with the mismanagement of funds from Jim Crockett Promotions... that was on the promoters. Flair made JCP stay afloat for nearly a decade longer than it should have. Ted Turner bought the promotion and turned it into WCW because of Ric Flair.

And it still never made any money until they brought in people to go above Flair on the card. WCW was losing money still in 1994, the last year in which Flair had a title run longer than two months. Then they stopped putting the title on him, started putting WWF guys in the main event and started making money.

As I mentioned before, Gagne had to create his own promotion to market himself. The NWA wasn't willing to put him over Lou Thesz, yet the NWA was willing to put Flair over Harley Race and make him the traveling world champion.

That's not even remotely close to what happened. Like lots of other wrestlers, Gagne was denied winning the NWA title because he wasn't liked by enough of the promoters. He set up AWA after he had already been a national star, so much so that national titles were invented for him due to his popularity.

By the time Flair came along, the NWA wasn't as political and there weren't as many territories to pander to.

And what's being left out here is that Flair was showcased on NATIONAL TV during his heyday and garnered the biggest ratings for TBS during his prime. Also, many of the gates drawn by Flair were as big, if not bigger than what Hogan drew in the WWF during that same time.

Starrcade in 1987 drew 85,000 people less than WrestleMania in the same year. That's not as big, nor is it bigger. It's actually quite a lot smaller. The cluster fuck that was WrestleMania 2 drew more to each of its venues than almost every single NWA show of the 1980s. One of those venues was headlined by Brutus Beefcake and Greg Valentine against the British Bulldog.

Now, I can concede Gagne was more popular because he was an Olympian and had notoriety before becoming a pro wrestler. Ric Flair was popular because he WAS a pro wrestler.

He was popular among a wrestling audience. He was not popular among a casual audience and never has been. When WCW signed Hogan, their ratings went up. When WCW signed Savage, their ratings went up. When WWF hired Flair, nothing happened because nobody who didn't already watch wrestling cared about Ric Flair.

Also, Flair had nothing to do with his run flopping in the WWF. Vince simply didn't want an outsider being the face of the WWF. Why would he concede Hogan, Warrior, and Savage to someone that gained popularity in the NWA?

Because he wasn't as popular as Hogan, Warrior or Savage. Look, you can choose to believe this all you want, but Hogan was made in AWA, by Gagne, and won the WWF title within three weeks of debuting. Then McMahon went with him. McMahon made Goldberg the World Champion. McMahon made Big Show the world Champion at a time when Rock and Austin were still there. McMahon cares about making money, and nothing else. Flair didn't do that.

Most of McMahon's champions were home grown, but that's because the other companies weren't making wrestlers that connected with the public in the same way. When Luger came along, he was pushed to high heaven. Why? Because he was popular with the audience. Flair wasn't, he was popular with a dated small scale audience and only when WCW abandoned that and started poaching WWF wrestlers did they start to make any money.

That had nothing to do with Flair as a wrestler and a popular draw. Hogan wanted to be the main event of Wrestlemania and he held the cards to do so... that's something Flair had no control over.

Hogan had the cards because he was more popular than Flair. That's exactly it. Then he went to WCW and held the cards there too.

Flair's accomplished more, drawn more money, and was more popular as a pro wrestler than Gagne.

No he didn't, no he didn't and no he wasn't.

I appreciate that it is a difficult truth for a lot of people to accept, but the fact of the matter is Gagne was a hugely successful money making wrestler in the 50s for other people, then he went and made money for himself. No company that has had Ric Flair as its featured performer has ever made any money whatsoever.

That is why when the territories were all clinging on to wrasslin' with Flair as champion, they all went to the wall and McMahon, who understood marketability hoovered them up. McMahon then later gave Flair a chance, had him win the Royal Rumble and become champion, and absolutely nobody gave a shit, so by the end of the year the title was in the hands of an unproven Canadian as that was seen as a more viable option than Ric Flair.

 

[The Brain]

So this is a second round match? This looks like a match that should come much later in the tournament. If this was something like a quarter final match like it should be I would put some effort into a post. It's a coin toss so I'm not going to put the effort in to try and change anyone's mind. I'm a little soured by it coming so soon so I'm just going to put my vote in for Flair simply because I like him more and have seen more of him.