Does the "nobody is good but Lebron and the Heat" thought process hurt basketball?

[J.J.]

What he's saying is that an argument which makes Jordan look better than LeBron he'll use, but when the argument is flipped to where Jordan looks inferior, then suddenly other criteria is more important.

I have never went shy from the championship argument. It's laughable because you don't feel him leading his team to 6 rings is a measuring tool for his success.

Jordan was a winner. You keep bringing up the argument of LeBron leading Cleveland to the finals as one example of LeBron being better. Did he win a ring that year? Jordan did that. I don't care about shot percentages, assist per game. He played ferocious defense, he scored, he played team ball and constantly led his team to victories.

As I pointed out above, their styles and approach to the game are different. Since Jordan, I would compare Kobe to him - arguably many people will say he has been the best since Jordan. Their playing styles are similar, their demeanor on the court are similar. LeBron is better to be compared to Magic because their all-around game is,similar.

 

[Slyfox696]

So what makes Lebron as good as if not better than Jordan?

We can start with his stats and his versatility. We can also discuss how he actually has friends in the league, which means he's better to play with as a teammate.

Because to me it seems impossible to judge since his most successful years have been played in a deficient conference.

As was Jordan's.

Some of those years he was on a stacked team made up the close to, if not the best three players in said conference. He was arguably the second best player on his team, his first two years in Miami.

No, it wasn't arguable. He was the best player in the world.

It seems like everyone who wants to call Lebron the greatest biggest argument that separates him from Jordan was that whenever Lebron's teams have lost it is management, the other player's, and other team's fault.

Are you telling me it's the fault of the greatest player in the world? Was it Jordan's fault when the Bulls lost in the Conference Finals to the Pistons in '89 and '90?

Basketball is a team sport, it's not tennis or golf. One person, no matter how great they are, can win by themselves.

I have never went shy from the championship argument.

So Horry is better than Malone. That's what you're saying? Because it has to be, if championships (a team accomplishment) are the only measure you're considering.

 

[J.J.]

Again Sly...please tell me out of all the championship rings Robert Horry has was he leading his team in ANY major statistical category?(points, rebounds, assist, blocks) Had he ever in the sports world been compared to Russell, Magic, Jordan, Kareem or Duncan when it comes to winning rings? Bill Wennington has more rings than LeBron but im not saying he's better. Tyronn Lue earned two rings with the Lakers, I wouldn't say he was better than Malone.

LeBron having friends is relevant to what? Damon Jones seemed to like to be-friend the NBA elite and tell me how far that got him. Isiah Thomas was and still is unpopular but the Pistons found success.

I argued that Jordan is a more determined player, more determined to win, you felt my statement was absurd - so now one reason LeBron is better is because he is easy to get along with? That is laughable. So had Jordan been more liked he would've won more championships? Or Penny Hardaway and Charles Barkley would've wanting to team up with him?

So since we are throwing out things that are irrelevant. Who was and still is more marketable? Who popularized this sport and took it to new levels? Who was part of a popular animated movie? Jordan is still a popular shoe, 11 years after Jordans playing days.

Ronald Murray is a good friend of mine and he teamed with LeBron in Cleveland several seasons back. While he and LeBron were on same page, he admitted LeBron being a pain to some teammates(Ira Newble he used as an example) and goofy. Age at the time likely played a big role to the latter.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

A player leading their team to a championship is largely what measured their success. Bill Russell had the advantage of playing in an era where guys his size weren't playing professional basketball. But I still consider him one of the greatest, out of any position.

While I agree that he is an all-time great, he's not better skill wise than Lebron or Jordan. Which begs the question, if championships are all that matter, why isn't he considered the best? Jordan played in a star studded league, but the Bulls TEAM was glaringly the best. Most of the really big time players were on the way out when Jordan got big. Lebron has Melo, Peirce, Garnett, Rose(when healthy), and that's in the Eastern Conference even though Peirce and Garnett are on the way out in a couple of years. That's not including the west. When Lebron has lost in the finals, he either was the ONLY good player on the team, or the other team was healthier or more complete. Even the best player in the world needs help. Jordan couldn't do it alone and neither can Lebron. You can be a great team leader and your team still lose because the rest of the team just doesn't show. When you are the ONLY player to score more than 20 hell more than 15 points for 2 games, it speaks to how his team had given up. No matter how great of a leader you are, if the rest of your team has dead set given up, there's nothing you can do. If Jordan had been on the Heat instead of Lebron, the result would still have been the same. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

What he's saying is that an argument which makes Jordan look better than LeBron he'll use, but when the argument is flipped to where Jordan looks inferior, then suddenly other criteria is more important.

That has become very clear from the very beginning.

 

[Slyfox696]

Again Sly...please tell me out of all the championship rings Robert Horry has was he leading his team in ANY major statistical category?(points, rebounds, assist, blocks) Had he ever in the sports world been compared to Russell, Magic, Jordan, Kareem or Duncan when it comes to winning rings? Bill Wennington has more rings than LeBron but im not saying he's better. Tyronn Lue earned two rings with the Lakers, I wouldn't say he was better than Malone.

So NOW stats matter?

That's funny, because I kept asking you for a statistical measure of how Jordan was better than LeBron and you just kept saying "championships". But now that the championships argument works against you (as it should, because it's absurd to use a team accomplishment when discussing individual quality), suddenly you want to talk about stats.

At this point, you really have no argument other than "Jordan is better than LeBron because I want him to be and damn all the evidence which says otherwise".

LeBron having friends is relevant to what?

Wow, how incredibly dishonest of you. Read the entire damn sentence and you'll have your answer.

"We can also discuss how he actually has friends in the league, which means he's better to play with as a teammate."

I argued that Jordan is a more determined player, more determined to win, you felt my statement was absurd - so now one reason LeBron is better is because he is easy to get along with? That is laughable.

What's laughable is how you constantly change your argument about what's important and then dishonestly take out of context my statement regarding his ability to be a teammate..

Who was and still is more marketable? Who popularized this sport and took it to new levels? Who was part of a popular animated movie? Jordan is still a popular shoe, 11 years after Jordans playing days.

...so? What does that have to do with being a good basketball player? Being a good teammate is directly relevant to being a good basketball player.

Your dishonesty is overwhelming right now.

That has become very clear from the very beginning.

Yes, it has. The sad part is how he's now having to resort to dishonesty to keep at it.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

Melo wants to play with Lebron. Chris Paul wants to play with Lebron. Wade and Bosh want to play with Lebron. Rajon Rondo recently said that Lebron should be having doubts about being in Miami why? Because he wants him to come to Boston so HE can play with Lebron! The reason why nobody wanted to play with each other in Jordan's time is because, quite frankly, Jordan was a bit of an asshole. Hell, if you put Lebron on the same Bulls team as Jordan had, he would be an 8 time champion because I don't believe he would've left for 2 years to have a short, horrendous career as a baseball player.

There was nobody that could really compete with Jordan during that time period. Karl Malone? Charles Barkley? John Stockton? Gary Payton? Patrick Ewing? Alonzo Mourning? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. How many players during today's era can compete with Lebron? Dwight Howard, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan. I say Lebron is the best period but you can honestly say that Durant and Melo are getting there.

At the age of 29, with only 10 more games played than Kobe at the same age, his stats are better. The only thing Kobe had by age 29 that Lebron doesn't is one more ring, which I think by now we can all agree is a team accomplishment. As has been said before, Lebron has played a couple of more years than Jordan did by age 29 because he played three seasons of college. But looking at the stats, Jordan only averaged about 5 more ppg than Lebron and 1 more steal per game and about .3 blocks per game more than Lebron. Lebron also plays the part of main distributor for Miami while Jordan was the main scorer so that factors in.

All in all, you can't make an accurate comparison until Lebron retires but as it goes now, you can only compare their per game averages. Going by that, he is definitely better than Kobe was at his age, and as good as Jordan but a better defender and a much better distributor.

 

[George Steele's Barber]

We can start with his stats and his versatility. We can also discuss how he actually has friends in the league, which means he's better to play with as a teammate.

You can start with stats but it would be best you didn't unless we are talking about Fantasy Basketball. Was Oscar Robertson the greatest player of all time for averaging a triple double in a season? How about George Gervin? Do you really think Jordan would be incapable of getting a couple more defensive rebounds or assists? Even if stats are so important, how does Lebron measure up from a 3 or 4 spot getting offensive rebounds vs a 2 like Jordan?

As far as versatility goes, it is a nice skill but it doesn't make you the best. Lots of guys can play multiple positions but at the professional level where there are systems in place versatility can only go so far. I can play guard, forward, and center but I stink at all three. I'd much rather be the best at one position.

And I think it is tremendously unfair for you to criticize that winning/championships should not be taken in to account when choosing the best basketball player of all time but you throw in friendships. Is BJ Armstrong going to throw away his championships for some time fishing time with MJ.

Plus who needs friends when you have Charles Oakley?

What is more relevant is how much better guys become playing with a particular guy. I would take Pippen's growth, Grant's growth, Armstrong's growth, Longley's rejuvenation, Cartwright's rejuvenation, Harper's growth, Rodman's rejuvenation over the development anyone that sniffed Lebron over the past three years. Who has raised their play consistently over the last three years with Lebron? Not Bosh, not Chalmers, maybe Birdman, maybe Battier lengthened his career but Jordan made everyone a better player, he had Phil but those were always Jordan's teams. He was the man and led them to success.

As was Jordan's.

Other than those 3 Amigos Celtic teams, since 2007 what teams were competitive to the point that they can compare to Pat Riley's Knicks, or the Pacers, or the Heat?

No, it wasn't arguable. He was the best player in the world.

Who would think the best player in the world would have the nickname 'Robin'?

Are you telling me it's the fault of the greatest player in the world? Was it Jordan's fault when the Bulls lost in the Conference Finals to the Pistons in '89 and '90?

Very much so. Jordan was asked to play up to 20% of the games minutes in those series and he along with his team couldn't get the job done. He is certainly partially to blame for the years his teams couldn't get it done.

Basketball is a team sport, it's not tennis or golf. One person, no matter how great they are, can win by themselves.

Thinking about Jordan seems to have made you have a Freudian slip.

And yes, I agree one player can't win by himself.

 

[Fire Marshall Bill]

Are we really throwing friendship into this equation? The funny thing is Jordan, to this day, still has many friends from his playing days that he had back then. Yeah, he talked a lot of trash on the court, but you can also see all kinds of times where he's laughing and joking with opponents and teammates on the court. Him and Barkley were friends for several years. Do you think Jordan beating Barkley in the Finals really caused that much of a rift? And again, what would it matter in the greatest player discussion anyways? Absolutely none.

And again the thing for me (and feel free to disagree because it's simply my opinion) is that I could never, ever, put James in my top 5 or 10 of all time. The man couldn't hack it on his own and ran to play with some of the best in the league in order to win. Did he do something that was entirely his right to do? Yes. Has he won championships (not the 7 he boasted he would) because of it? Yes. But in the end, our choices define who we are. He chose to take the easy way out, plain and simple.

"But Jordan had Pippen, Jackson, Rodman, etc." True. Did he run off and go join their team so he could win? Nope. They were drafted, recruited, etc. He would've stayed there and played with whoever was sent his way. He is literally the most competitive man I have ever heard of. That's why he pushed his teammates so hard. He expected the best out of them always. You seem to be calling him an asshole for it. He had to be the first one out of the showers even. I can't remember what teammate was mentioning that in an interview. It's probably the main reason he has such an addiction to golf and gambling. He can't beat them. Anyway, I'm way off topic.

I'm not so stupid as to say James isn't a great player. He is. He's amazing and with his playing style I would say he's closest to Magic with his skillset (not saying anything about who was greater in this case). But I am saying he doesn't have the heart of a champion.

 

[J.J.]

Going by Sly's logic Oscar Robertson is the greatest all-time if you want to measure an individual by his standards. Since versatility means more than a player being the focal point of their team's success.

Also being friendly and players wanting to play with him means more than commanding his players to play at their highest level. In Cleveland the logic was he lacked the help. So why did Carlos Boozer cite LeBron as one of his reasons for signing with Utah years back? So what would be the excuse if LeBron played on a team with Melo and CP3 and still didn't win a championship? What would be excuse?

There was nobody that could really compete with Jordan during that time period. Karl Malone? Charles Barkley? John Stockton? Gary Payton? Patrick Ewing? Alonzo Mourning? Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. How many players during today's era can compete with Lebron? Dwight Howard, James Harden, Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, Carmelo Anthony, Tony Parker, Tim Duncan. I say Lebron is the best period but you can honestly say that Durant and Melo are getting there.

So you are saying Jordan is better than with that logic? Because those guys you listed are hall of famers. You are saying Jordan was head and shoulders above his hall of fame peers during that era and that LeBron is as competitive as those players you listed.

 

[Slyfox696]

You can start with stats but it would be best you didn't unless we are talking about Fantasy Basketball. Was Oscar Robertson the greatest player of all time for averaging a triple double in a season?

One season does not make a great player (and for what it's worth, Robertson's stats decline steadily after his first couple of years). Furthermore, I never said stats were the only measure of what makes LeBron every bit as good as Jordan.

Do you really think Jordan would be incapable of getting a couple more defensive rebounds or assists?

Why didn't he then?

As far as versatility goes, it is a nice skill but it doesn't make you the best.

Not by its lonesome, I agree. That's why I mention it alongside several other factors.

And I think it is tremendously unfair for you to criticize that winning/championships should not be taken in to account when choosing the best basketball player of all time but you throw in friendships. Is BJ Armstrong going to throw away his championships for some time fishing time with MJ.

Why can people not read the entire line? I mentioned friendships with regards to being TEAMMATES.

What is more relevant is how much better guys become playing with a particular guy.

Well, LeBron took a team that lost 26 games in a row the year after he left to the NBA playoffs. I'd say that's pretty good.

Other than those 3 Amigos Celtic teams, since 2007 what teams were competitive to the point that they can compare to Pat Riley's Knicks, or the Pacers, or the Heat?

The Pacers and the Bulls, for starters.

Very much so. Jordan was asked to play up to 20% of the games minutes in those series and he along with his team couldn't get the job done. He is certainly partially to blame for the years his teams couldn't get it done.

I'm sorry, but that's absurd. Blaming the best player on a team, if not in the league/world, for the failures of others is silly. If everyone on the team played as well as Jordan or LeBron, do you really think the team would lose?

I'm not sure where the mentality of blaming the best player for the worst came to be, but I hate it.

Thinking about Jordan seems to have made you have a Freudian slip.

And yes, I agree one player can't win by himself.

Are we really throwing friendship into this equation?

No, we're throwing "being a good teammate" into the equation. Why are so many people not reading the entire sentence?

And again the thing for me (and feel free to disagree because it's simply my opinion) is that I could never, ever, put James in my top 5 or 10 of all time. The man couldn't hack it on his own

Except that he did, taking an awful Cavs team to the Finals.

He chose to take the easy way out, plain and simple.

No, he chose to have power over his career. There's a big difference.

True. Did he run off and go join their team so he could win? Nope. They were drafted, recruited, etc. He would've stayed there and played with whoever was sent his way.

And he wouldn't have won.

That's why it's such a terrible argument.

Going by Sly's logic Oscar Robertson is the greatest all-time if you want to measure an individual by his standards. Since versatility means more than a player being the focal point of their team's success.

Oh, is LeBron NOT the focal point of his team's success? You're being dishonest again.

Also being friendly and players wanting to play with him means more than commanding his players to play at their highest level.

I'm sorry, is there a reason why being a great teammate shows LeBron isn't commanding his players to play at their highest level?

In Cleveland the logic was he lacked the help.

And still took them to the NBA Finals.

So why did Carlos Boozer cite LeBron as one of his reasons for signing with Utah years back?

Source? Because everything I've seen says Boozer was let out of his deal so he could re-sign with the Cavs, but took more money in Utah.

So what would be the excuse if LeBron played on a team with Melo and CP3 and still didn't win a championship? What would be excuse?

I'm sorry, are you asking for a hypothetical for something which is likely to never happen?

Again with the dishonesty from you.

 

[J.J.]

What is dishonest? You are measuring talent based upon how versatile they are rather than how much they succeed as the leader of their team. Your argument has been focused on LeBron being more versatile than Jordan. My argument is does he win like Jordan on the court of a Jordan Bulls championship team? That is what separates Jordan from LeBron and so many other players. As I said their approach to the game is different their style is different.

They both have different skill sets. Would you argue LeBron better than Magic? Similar styles.

You are arguing about LeBron leading Cavs to finals. Okay...so did they win? I remember that season and outside of Detroit, which other team poised to be a threat that year in the East? None.

So instead of LeBron pushing his teammates and using his klout to draw reasonable roleplayers, his solution is to skip town again?

 

[Slash-LN]

Who said "no one" in the history of basketball is good besides Lebron? Can you provide proof that people are actually saying that and being serious about it? If that was the case then Lebron would have won every MVP award since he's played. There wouldn't be an ongoing debate in this thread about Jordan vs. James. People wouldn't be talking about how good Kevin Durant is. People wouldn't have been split on the Heat/Spurs series this year.

I think the OP pulled an exaggerated opinion out of his ass and tried to pass it off as a fact.