For having a different opinion?
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Does being the biggest draw equal to being the most entertaining? Nope
- Thread starter Crocker
- Start date
For having a different opinion?
Nope. Try again.
Calling him a WWE apologist. That wasn't even meant as an insult, so i'm sorry if that offended him in any way.
1) Do not even try that 'oh I didn't mean it' bullshit now; if you somehow weren't aware of the loaded history of the word 'apologist' despite your frequent and repeated use of it, you had it explicitly explained to you.
2) You're back in here because you were told to get off the whole John Cena thing, but couldn't make it a week.
3) 'John Cena sucks' is a very popular opinion around here, and if people were put in the prison for espousing it, you'd have a lot of company. You're in here because you cannot handle opposing opinions. Any attempt by people to argue against your subjective logic has been responded to by calling the person an apologist (see #1) without adding anything new to the discussion.
You are not in here for having an opinion that many other forum members share; you're in here because you have been unable to express that opinion without sounding like a douchebag, despite getting several chances to do so.
2) You're back in here because you were told to get off the whole John Cena thing, but couldn't make it a week.
3) 'John Cena sucks' is a very popular opinion around here, and if people were put in the prison for espousing it, you'd have a lot of company. You're in here because you cannot handle opposing opinions. Any attempt by people to argue against your subjective logic has been responded to by calling the person an apologist (see #1) without adding anything new to the discussion.
You are not in here for having an opinion that many other forum members share; you're in here because you have been unable to express that opinion without sounding like a douchebag, despite getting several chances to do so.
1. I did mean to use the word apologist, I just didn't want to use it as a means to offend anyone.. its not supposed to be an offensive term. The history behind it is irrelevant to its usage. I'm sure if you look closely there would be other words that are used everyday that have a bad history.
2. What? KB just made a thread about it. He said its okay to talk about Cena as long as it is connected to the subject, which it was. The OP was talking about Cena apologists, drawing, WWE's business, etc.. Cena is related to all of that since people always claim that hes the biggest draw.
3. No "John Cena sucks" is not a popular opinion on this forum at all. I do retort to their arguments but when people like Spidamite say delusional things then it causes my emotions to get out of control; its not that I can't handle opposing opinions.. its that guys like Spidamite and Bernkastel try to present things as facts with an obvious bias, such as Kane being a bigger draw than Daniel Bryan and The Shield.
How do I sound like a douchebag? What have I done wrong besides calling people WWE and Cena apologists (its just a simple name, get over it)
2. What? KB just made a thread about it. He said its okay to talk about Cena as long as it is connected to the subject, which it was. The OP was talking about Cena apologists, drawing, WWE's business, etc.. Cena is related to all of that since people always claim that hes the biggest draw.
3. No "John Cena sucks" is not a popular opinion on this forum at all. I do retort to their arguments but when people like Spidamite say delusional things then it causes my emotions to get out of control; its not that I can't handle opposing opinions.. its that guys like Spidamite and Bernkastel try to present things as facts with an obvious bias, such as Kane being a bigger draw than Daniel Bryan and The Shield.
How do I sound like a douchebag? What have I done wrong besides calling people WWE and Cena apologists (its just a simple name, get over it)
Cena Is A Punk Rocker
Accidental spam artist
I really hope this was just a rib. Maybe it was something drummed up by the staff to have a good laugh amongst each other. Because this is getting pretty fucking ridiculous.
4) People keep explaining to you exactly how you keep pissing everyone off, and you keep responding 'nuh uh I'm not' while insisting that it must be your opinion that offends people, and not the way you express it.
Which is an amazingly common character trait amongst people who get put in here.
Which is an amazingly common character trait amongst people who get put in here.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
While I admit that my sources may not have been 100% ironclad, I actually used proper logic to justify my arguments. Something that you have never done.
We've heard this a hundred times before.. a list of extremely selective house shows does not prove that Kane is a bigger draw than DB and The Shield. Hey, since you put so much faith in the WWE, lets put it in terms that you can understand. If Kane is such a big draw, why would they take him off tv to film a movie? If Kane was such a big draw why would they make DB main event WM 30? If Kane was such a big draw why wouldn't he be in every main event instead of Rollins, and why doesn't he receive as much protection as Reigns? Using your logic to defeat your own argument. Thats literally what you said about Cena; that the company wouldn't push him if he didn't draw.. well apply that same logic to Kane; why WOULDN'T they push him over guys like Shield and DB if he's as big of a draw you claim he is?
Cena Is A Punk Rocker
Accidental spam artist
If somebody can find an argument against the former "Crocker" suck starting a shotgun. I'm all ears.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
It was not extremely selective. At all. While it did not account for every objective factor that could have been accounted for, it did account for several. An extremely selective list would have been limited to one measurable criteria only.
That was 2013. He returned by the start of 2014.
If you looked at the data, which I know you didn't, it shows that all of Bryan's big houses where drawn in the months leading up to Mania 30. He was really only behind Cena and Orton. WWE obviously had faith in his drawing power, so he won the belt.
Rollins didn't start main eventing until 2015.
Aside from Kane being booked as a heel, Reigns protection has dropped immensely since Mania 31.
You are winning it for me actually. See below. We see Bryan winning the title, because the numbers justify him being a big draw, but then it drops off due to him being injured. Makes sense.
...Kane is a heel. In the end he's supposed to lose. That's his role as a heel. You do know the differences between heels and faces right? But lets look at Kane's booking in 2014...
A feud with Bryan over the world title.
A brief feud with Cena just before he won the title.
Competed for the world title that Cena won.
Competed in the rematch for the world title.
A high profile feud with Roman Reigns, whom WWE were trying to groom as a future world champion.
Capped off with a short feud with Ryback.
... so horrible draw Kane was rewarded with repeated world title matches, an upper main event feud with the man WWE were hoping to push as their next mega star, before elevating a mid carder.
Spidey Revivey
Porn is okay here long as it ain't dudes.
Yeah. Care to elaborate on this or are we just being emotional when we say this?
And if you took the time to read any of KJ's other posts, you would have known he is not a fan of the WWE. You calling him a WWE apologist somehow made that phrase even more meaningless than what it already was. It was a douchebag thing to say anyways, since it was nonsensical, but it was like calling the Pope a protestant when used on KJ.
Still waiting on mine and Sexual Objectification Panda's questions to be answered, by the way:
Why did you feel the need to interrupt CM Punk in the middle of dinner?
Can you name 1 person who was as big as John Cena that lost as much as Cena has?
Stone Cold Tea
Getting Noticed By Management
From what I remember from my younger days The Rock was on the losing end quite a lot as a face.
We're not going through this again.. me and KB have went through this with you already. Please do not continue with this ignorance.
Uhh what? Lesnar took him out a month ago so he can film a movie. Where were you?
Source : http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news...-he-starring-in-wwe-movie-with-dolph-ziggler/
No, WWE was forced to have him main event WM because fans were hijackign shows left and right.
And 2014, but he was still on a higher position than Kane all those times. Man even in 2013 and 2012 he was in a higher position than Kane, who was a tag team comedy wrestler. On the other hand Rollins was dominating the roster as The Shield
Still way more protected than Kane
No because Kane is not receiving as much protection/ screen time as Shield and Daniel Bryan (before he was injured). If he was a bigger draw than them why wouldn't he be booked stronger than them?
Heels that draw as much as Kane are supposed to lose this often? Then why do heels like HHH and Stone Coldbarely lose when they were in their prime?
Because there was no other guy for Bryan to feud with. Evolution was occupied with The Shield. Cena was feuding with Wyatt. Kane is like Jericho, the go to guy to job to the stars.
I'm sorry, what? For as big of a mark you are of Kane, you don't seem to know much. What title did he win that was so significant? His last WHC run was in 2010. Are you talking about the tag team championships? Kane returned with a mask after months of being out, so he feuded with Cena so he can get fed to him, so Cena can look strong facing The Rock. Like i said, Kane is the go to guy to job to the stars, nothing more.
Read above. The roster is thin now, plus everyone else is occupied.
Your point? Even Miz has done these at some point.
So thats what you consider as a "high profile feud"? They didn't even have a singles PPV match. Lets look at history for a bit. After Shield broke up, the next PPV was Money In The Bank.. a 8 man WHC match. So I wouldn't say Kane and Reigns were actually "feuding" with each other. The next PPV was a fatal four way between Cena, Reigns, Kane, and Orton. Wouldn't really call this a "high profile feud" either. Next PPV was SummerSlam, which was Orton vs Reigns. Then Reigns next feud was supposed to be Rollins before he got the hernia. So basically, Kane and Reigns were never supposed to have a PPV match together. Kane was merely Randy Orton's lacky; they met in a few singles matches on Raw but that was about it. That was NOT a "high profile feud".
Yeah this doesn't really prove anything.
Repeated world title matches in a very thin roster, at times when everyone else was occupied. Also he was not even a feud with Reigns.
Professional wrestling needs people to job to the stars, because if everyone is star, then no one is a star. Kane has been successfully jobbing to the stars for almost twenty years now, which is one of the more successful careers in professional wrestling. You seem hung up on the idea that the only way someone matters is if they win championships and main event every show, when a promotion is a mix of pieces able to fill several different roles required to complete a performance.
This is why Shakespeare didn't make everyone Romeo. For someone who loves to tell people they're wrong, you don't seem to know much
Rayne do you even know the point I'm trying to make? I'm proving that Kane is not a bigger draw than Shield and Daniel Bryan. If he was a bigger draw, he would be in a better spot than guys like The Shield and Daniel Bryan. If he was a bigger draw, he wouldn't be used as enhancement talent.
I'm not saying using Kane as enhancement talent is a bad thing.
I'm not saying using Kane as enhancement talent is a bad thing.
No, it could mean either:
A) He viewed this thread within the past hour, or
B) The more sensible option, he realized that any attempt to reason with you ends with "everyone is a John Cena/WWE apologist who can't follow logic", and is choosing to ignore you.
For what it's worth, I nor anyone else understands what kind of point you are trying to make. It seems to be that a business shouldn't do what they feel makes them the most money, but after making a certain amount of money they should stop and dedicate themselves to making good entertainment as befits your particular subjective tastes. If this isn't your point, you need to take a few steps backwards and try explaining it again, because none of your audience seems to have any idea what the hell you are trying to say.
Yes, WWE is a business, and at the end of the day they will do what draws most. I am using your guys logic to prove that Kane is not a bigger draw than The Shield and Daniel Bryan, which Bernkastel delusionally believes.
If he was, he would be positioned higher than them, which he wasn't. Shield and Daniel Bryan all received more protection than Kane, who is just an enhancement talent. If Kane was such a big draw, then the WWE would give him more championship reigns.
If he was, he would be positioned higher than them, which he wasn't. Shield and Daniel Bryan all received more protection than Kane, who is just an enhancement talent. If Kane was such a big draw, then the WWE would give him more championship reigns.
A11oftheLights
Getting Noticed By Management
John Cena's Pleasure Mouth
lmaois actually right here. Bernkastel has some theory that Kane is a bigger draw than DB and all three shield members. Personally think its stupid but at least he has some study/statistical analysis of house shows to back up his point other than ignoring any comment that is made or calling them an apologist
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
KB and I went though it. You just stood on the sidelines while lumping KB into your little clique of idiots because he just so happened to disagree with me. And from what I gathered after KB and I were finished is that there were 3 main factors not accounted for in the data set I used: 1.) was that the data pool did not include all cities in the US worked by the WWE, but those with recorded gates in the past. It still came up to be a test sample of over 1500 shows. 2.) the revenue for each show was not accounted for; which is meager considering that the WWE offers a range, but the same standard, for ticket prices for their house shows. Meaning the price for house shows will not change across state, city, or venue. WWE sets those. 3.) Weather was not accounted for.
Kane also filmed a movie at the end of 2013. However it is 2015; not 2014. The data I presented only corresponds to 2014.
And from what we see from his drawing power presented in the data, there was a reason for that. Bryan was a strong draw the beginning of the year. WWE does not give people pushes because crowds on RAW cheer for them. That's superficial, subjective, varies from city to city, and cannot be measured objectively.
How many world championship matches did Rollins participate in during 2014? Seth jobbed to Heath Slater on RAW in 2014.
Yeah, wrestlers that WWE tend to want to push as the next big thing tend to have that distinction.
I am talking about the whole of 2014. You are picking and choosing some individual months. Kane throughout the whole year of course had more screen time than Daniel Bryan; he was injured not even a quarter of the way through it. And he was given higher profile feuds than any individual members of the Shield.
I never once claimed that Kane was bigger than the team "The Shield." I claimed he was bigger than any of its individual members in 2014 like the data suggested. And looking at his booking for the year, multiple WWE world title matches, its certainly reinforces that claim.
HHH was WWE's top draw at the time, and once Austin turned heel in 2001 he did lose more than he ever did as a face years before.
And like Jericho, Kane is also a good draw. And looking at the numbers Kane vs Bryan drew really well.
I'm talking about before Cena won the world title you idiot. Cena facing and beating Kane made Cena look strong going into the world title match. It wouldn't have worked with any other superstar, but it only worked with Kane because he's still so popular.
Which is why if WWE had placed anyone else but Kane in the position of "director of operations" for the Authority, it wouldn't have worked as well.
Even if that were true at that moment, Kane is great in his role, is still popular, and fit perfectly alongside Cena, Orton, and Reigns.
If you can't see the very obvious point that Kane received many if these world title matches because he's popular, a good draw, and strong in his role then you clearly lack any sort of logic.
Hardly a very thin roster the whole year round. It was actually a quite stacked roster. If the roster was thin then Kane would have seen even more screen time and PPV main events then he did. Looking at the house show results and TV results Kane was still very solidly being used in the main event. Not to the levels of Cena or Orton, but I never claimed that.
The only thing I claimed was that Kane was a bigger draw than Bryan in 2014, reinforced by Kane's longevity and Bryan's injury. And that Kane was bigger than any of the individual members of the Shield the whole year round. He received better booking than Ambrose or Rollins, and according to the data Reigns was not a strong draw in 2014; less than good or average. And this can of course be reinforced by the fact that he did not win the title in 2015.
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Don't patronize me. While I may have made a mistake regarding Kane/Reigns, I still was definitely not wrong about Kane being a bigger draw than Bryan in 2014. If you cannot make the connection why then you're an idiot. Plain and simple.
I was also not wrong in my claim that Kane was a bigger draw than any individual members of the Shield. Reigns was a low draw, Seth's booking did not pick up until 2015, and Ambrose... is just Ambrose...
Bernkastel
Reaper of Miracles
Er... because he's a heel. And he's not the top star. Nor is he being pushed as a megastar. Do you seriously not understand this?
Also having protection doesn't equate to better booking. John Cena isn't as protected as Lesnar or Undertaker right now, and yet he was the one fighting for the world title at Summerslam. They weren't.
In 2014 Kane had 3 of those opportunities. Reigns had none, Rollins had none, and Ambrose had none.