Chris Jericho Criticizes BFG Series Concept; Says TNA Needs to Simplify

[It's Damn Real!]

http://www.prowrestling.net/artman/publish/WWE/article10033390.shtml

I don’t watch the show but the Bound for Glory and he’s got eighteen points and he’s got fifteen points and it’s a twelve week tournament and it’s like who has time to follow this stuff. When I watch wrestling, I don’t want to think. I just want to enjoy it, I don’t want to do mathematical equations and figure it out. If there is a Round Robin and here are your brackets and I get it. But if you win, if you get disqualified, if you get five points or twelve points, I don’t get it. I’ll just put on Seinfeld instead.

This is really poorly paraphrased, I'd imagine, but the point still stands — how important is the mathematical side of this? I'll admit, while I get that it's intended to mimic a sports standings platform, the "who has time to follow this stuff" rule certainly applies. I didn't actually look at the BFG series numbers until probably the last week or two. I just didn't care. It didn't matter that much. Especially with points being earned or lost at house shows.

Frankly, Jericho may have it right. Or at least more right than the mathematical set up the series functions on right now. It makes sense, in a way, but it's also limited in two big factors. The first, as I already mentioned, is the care factor. Does anyone here sit around calculating percentages of what it will take for X performer to get in, or determine what the likely minimum cut-off will/would be for the final four? I sure as shit don't. The second, and the most important, is that it also limits the number of competitors that can in fact compete in this ever year. A round robin format where you win and you're in/advance is not only simpler, but allows for you to expand much broad across nearly the entire company from the start.

The BFG series is one of the better concepts TNA has come up with, but I'm not sure they've got it nailed down just yet. In that respect, Jericho is right. I wont' turn it off for Seinfeld though — that much I know.

Thoughts?

 

[Zeven_Zion]

What's so hard to understand?

1. Around 12 guys enter the tournament

2. You get points by scoring wins via submission or pinfall. If you get DQ'd you lose points.

3. Finally the 4 men with the highest scores fight to determine who wins the BFG series.

TNA constantly shows the leader board for you to see how people are doing.

That's it.

Jericho doesn't need to calculate anything, it's calculated for him. What Jericho needs to do is watch the show.

It's a similar concept as the Qualification rounds for the World Cup in football. Win - 3 points, Draw - 1 point, loss - 0 points. First two teams qualify. Football fans ain't geniuses but we get it. Because we follow it.

C'mon Chris, you're smarter than that. If wrestling fans can't grasp this then fuck all the storylines in all the companies. Let's just have dudes fight for no reason since a concept behind the fight might be too complicated. He doesn't wanna think, right?

 

[ABMorales787]

Yeah, if it were about the silly time constraints it had this year, then I'd agree. But when the rules are so basic and pointed out every match along with a scorecard, it's pretty damn obvious Chris is talking without knowing and looks silly for doing so.

 

[Kliq69]

No, I agree it's too convoluted. ZZ brought up it being like soccer. That wouldn't be too hard to follow. However, BFG also has 3 ways worth bonus points, different decisions worth different points, heck it starts with a 20 pt match. Soccer doesn't do that.

I think Jericho's point of a round robin makes perfect sense. 12 guys face all 11 guys in 1 on 1 matches, wins worth a point, losses worth nothing. You could even do 4 highest advance to keep that part the same. This year they just scratched the concept, added a bonus match to put in a guy who was eliminated according to their mathematical concept, and made the whole idea worthless. A tournament idea works, hell even a complex multi-point level system could theoretically work, however it only works if you don't trash it at the end and put in whoever you want. I think Jericho is correct in saying it needs to be simpler, simply because it's a less of a chance they have a repeat of the clusterf*ck that ended this years BFG series.

 

[Slash-LN]

He flat out said he doesn't watch it so his opinion is pretty invalid.
If he watched it then maybe he would understand.
It's really not that hard to follow.
It's all laid out pretty well. Even if you miss a show or two in that time they do a well enough job of explaining who has how many points so it's not like you're totally lost.

 

[MCMG]

I suppose it gets confusing to remember which guy is where in the rankings and it is easy to forget how many points each method of finish is worth but they mention that on a regular basis. To be honest, when watching any match in this series (especially the multi-man matches) it is a little difficult to remember what a win would mean for each person. It definitely doesn't cater for a casual fan or someone who isn't paying attention.

 

[ABMorales787]

I suppose it gets confusing to remember which guy is where in the rankings and it is easy to forget how many points each method of finish is worth but they mention that on a regular basis. To be honest, when watching any match in this series (especially the multi-man matches) it is a little difficult to remember what a win would mean for each person. It definitely doesn't cater for a casual fan or someone who isn't paying attention.

The commentators have even flat out mentioned when it's pointless for certain wrestlers to win because they won't have enough points. There's a score card before and after each match. They mention a wrestler is going for ten points when he attempts a submission and seven if he attempts a pinfall. It's only complicated if you are blind, deaf or really suck at math. And if people really feel the need to say it's complex, I hope you don't watch the NFL then. Because your brain may not be able to take it.

 

[ヒュー　G.　レックション]

The complexity to me is what MAKES it good in my opinion! Jericho says he doesn't want to think when watching wrestling, but I do in a way. I love trying to figure out what'll happen next, or the psychology in matches.

Anyway I like the BFG Series because it makes every match in it matter more, and I liked them doing matches at house shows because it made them mean more too.

However the execution of this year's Series was poor, especially with that last minute gauntlet that was thought up just to make sure Styles won.

 

[klunderbunker]

Jericho is right and wrong at the same time in this.

Yes, the scoring system is pretty simple when you look at it. 10 points for a submission, 7 for a pin etc. However, you know what else is simple? Wrestler A beats Wrestler B, Wrestler A advances and Wrestler B is eliminated.

Round robin tournaments have been done successfully in wrestling companies for years. It's a basic idea and it works fine. The G1 Climax Tournament is one of the most prestigious tournaments in the world and it's under round robin rules. However, TNA overcomplicates the BFG Series to the point where it doesn't work nearly as well as it should.

For one thing, stop with the four man matches where you can get twice as many points as you can in a single match. If you want to have a round robin tournament, have a round robin tournament and that's it. Adding in these bonus point matches makes the regular matches pale in comparison, and if the whole point is to find out who is consistently the best wrestler, the bonus matches defeat the purpose. Don't believe me? Let's look at this year's tournament.

This year there was the Joker's Wild night with the three tag matches setting up a gauntlet match for 25 points (won by Magnus). Then the Series ended with a gauntlet match for 20 points (won by AJ). If one person won those two matches and lost every other match in the tournament, he would have finished with 45 points, good for second place overall and a spot in the final four. If I'm following the whole thing, why should I waste my time on the regular matches when two matches can override seven or so?

Most importantly of all though, there are too many people in the Series. 12 people means everyone fights everyone once, or 66 matches total. Cut the thing in half and it solves a lot of problems. We don't need to see Jay Bradley vs. Kazarian or Joseph Park vs. Hernandez. It's obvious that the Series is going to come down to one of about five people, so why waste the fans' time on the matches no one wants to see? Make it six people max and have the best possible matches to keep the people interested.

At the end of the day, Jericho is saying stop making the fans sit through so much stuff they're not interested in. Wrestling isn't supposed to be about sitting through a bunch of boring matches so you get to the stuff you want to see. It should be about entertaining the fans. Basically the tournament this year was as follows:

We sit through a bunch of dull matches, Magnus wins one match to take a huge lead, we run out of time and have to cut the thing short to get it done in time, AJ doesn't win a match the right way so we have to have another gauntlet match to set up the match we need, making the rest of the tournament feel like even more of a waste of time.

In short, Jericho is saying stop wasting the fans time with math problems and get to the wrestling and I wouldn't disagree with that at all.

 

[ProWrestlingFan]

Its not difficult for me. The Bound for Glory Series is fine.

And the Bound for Glory Series actually makes TNA look like a sport instead of a soap-opera.

What's so hard to understand?

Jericho doesn't need to calculate anything, it's calculated for him. What Jericho needs to do is watch the show.

It's a similar concept as the Qualification rounds for the World Cup in football. Win - 3 points, Draw - 1 point, loss - 0 points. First two teams qualify. Football fans ain't geniuses but we get it. Because we follow it.

C'mon Chris, you're smarter than that. If wrestling fans can't grasp this then fuck all the storylines in all the companies. Let's just have dudes fight for no reason since a concept behind the fight might be too complicated. He doesn't wanna think, right?

Couldn't have said it any better.

 

[Starkist]

It's not that big of a deal. I think they should just have it be less matches or with ten guys instead of twelve. It gets interesting, but what I think is confusing or messing around with everyone's mind, is that they they tried having title feuds. I am probably wrong, but that's my opinion.

I am fine with the BFG series, but I can say it does need reworking. As for Jericho, he should just watch the show. TNA is not bad, actually it is really good.

 

[dansaint]

but here's the problem with BFG...they were so out of sorts that they didn't even complete it.

Some guys didn't complete all the matches in it.

And I firmly believe, at the end of the day, they looked and said "oh damn...we forgot...AJ isn't in the top 4. We need to come up with a match to get him in there".

the concept is fine...the execution, in my opinion, leaves a LOT to be desired.

 

[L'autre frere rougeau]

While i agree that the concept is quite simple to follow, jericho also have a point when he mention it can get heavy since it's a 12 weeks tournament.

The answer: why not make it a shorter bfg series.

I've played the bleacher manager and came up with my own concept(feel free to comment) which i inspired myself from the world cup of soccer system and it looks something like this.

Week 1-3:instead of 12 wrestlers, 16 would star the tournament but they'll be split in 4 groups of 4 guys each and everyone would face each wrestlers of their group in a round robin format.

Week 4: the winner of each groups have a bye week and makes automatically to the quarter final single elimination tournament and the other 3 members of each group face each other in a triple treath match where the winner fills the remaining spots for the quarter finals.

Week 5: the quater finales takes places as regular one on one matches.

Week 6 the semi finals are no dq matches

Week 7 the final as a ladder match.

In the round robin a submission win is 3 points, pinfall win2 a tie or double dq or double count out is 1 and a loss is well a 0.

I thinl this concept could work because it's still long enough to have some good devellopement without dragging on for too long and guys that have zero chance of winning won't be stuck in the bfg series once they're out.

 

[VencomHardcore]

CHRIS IS RIGHT 100%

For those that didn't live during the territory days, The AWA tried a tournament similar to this to compete against Wrestlemania. The idea seemed cool but it didn't really work for the fans back then because it was too complicated. The funny thing is that the TNA tournament is more complex than the AWA one.

A simple tournament like the one they did a few years ago during the ppv was great. Your won , you progressed, you loose , you go home. Simple . Easy. Competitive. Here is TNA's Major Issue:

TNA does not look at history. There are too many quality compelling storylines that the WWE doesn't do that worked well during the territories they could use. They are always trying to out innovate WWE when it is not really needed.

 

[Lowdown]

Whatever floats Chris' boat man. He's not wrong per se, but he could still enjoy a quality match without paying close attention to the numbers. A round robin would be more simplistic for sure, and maybe TNA will consider that for future BFG series.

 

[ABMorales787]

CHRIS IS RIGHT 100%

He admitted he doesn't watch the thing. But he's completely right. Of course!

For those that didn't live during the territory days, The AWA tried a tournament similar to this to compete against Wrestlemania. The idea seemed cool but it didn't really work for the fans back then because it was too complicated. The funny thing is that the TNA tournament is more complex than the AWA one.

I read this.

A simple tournament like the one they did a few years ago during the ppv was great. Your won , you progressed, you loose , you go home. Simple . Easy. Competitive. Here is TNA's Major Issue:

TNA does not look at history. There are too many quality compelling storylines that the WWE doesn't do that worked well during the territories they could use. They are always trying to out innovate WWE when it is not really needed.

And then this. You say TNA doesn't look at history right after pointing out a similar concept was done before. That's of course ignoring the fact that you say Jericho is correct in a completely wild assumption he's making. The idea of the BFG Series is to be different and to show off a variety of match-ups that would normally be saved for PPV on free TV. It's already worked well enough the last two years. Yet people still bitch about the rules. Again, I REALLY hope you people don't follow football. Or Baseball. Those rules might be way above you. The funny thing is you say it should be a single elimination tournament. ......................We just got that this past Thursday.

 

[CuddleBuns84]

Well, with my years of experience in the marketing field. The best method is short and sweet. Something that sticks with you. If I wanted a complex system to follow, I would pop Inception in my Blu-Ray.

Now, it is good for promoting Bound For Glory. But at the same time, bad for ratings. If you have people in the tournament who don't have a chance at making the final four. Why would you watch them?

Granted it is similar to how NASCAR operates its point systems. But, that works for NASCAR. A race is on for four hours, and a larger fan base.

A less complicated system is easier for wrestling fans. If you look at the WWE, you have a Money in the Bank, and the Royal Rumble. The Rumble promotes Wrestlemania, and Money in the Bank promotes a potential new talent or new storyline.

If I recall, Sting didn't win any matches to face Hogan at Starcade '97. The build-up for that match was amazing. Maybe, just focus on the build-up of why the Champion has to take on the Challenger.

Paul Heyman had an interview a few years back. He stated that wrestling is like a Clint Eastwood movie. You build-up your bad guys, then Clint Eastwood shows up.

Cheers,

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Giving wrestling a sporty feel in general is pretty shitty. It's about emotion, if people wanted to watch a sport, they would. Pro wrestling is more than a sport. It's athletics combined with brilliant storytelling. Making it more like a sport with standings and points seems archaic. The BFG stuff isn't as bad as Jericho makes it seem though.

 

[GameOver]

What's so hard to understand?

1. Around 12 guys enter the tournament

2. You get points by scoring wins via submission or pinfall. If you get DQ'd you lose points.

3. Finally the 4 men with the highest scores fight to determine who wins the BFG series.

TNA constantly shows the leader board for you to see how people are doing.

That's it.

Jericho doesn't need to calculate anything, it's calculated for him. What Jericho needs to do is watch the show.

It's a similar concept as the Qualification rounds for the World Cup in football. Win - 3 points, Draw - 1 point, loss - 0 points. First two teams qualify. Football fans ain't geniuses but we get it. Because we follow it.

C'mon Chris, you're smarter than that. If wrestling fans can't grasp this then fuck all the storylines in all the companies. Let's just have dudes fight for no reason since a concept behind the fight might be too complicated. He doesn't wanna think, right?

Except thats not how it went, they also added random matches worth 20 points cause of shitty booking where they forgot who was meant to win and instead of everyone facing each other twice they allowed people to chose there own opponents, this is a tournament right not a Gut Check.

I think it's a good concept but this year was poorly executed and stupid inclusions of obvious jobbers that were never gonna bring anything to the series, it should be the best of the best for that year, not half the best and some others added in for no reason and the wrong person one IMO, AJ has been there done that they need a future not a past that always flops when it matters

 

[theshadowranger]

With the IWC TNA is damned if the do and damned if they don't.

People constantly say be different, try something new, stop doing the same old shit, stop living in the past.

Then when they something new everyone bitches about them "trying to reinvent the wheel".

 

[Vintage]

I suppose it gets confusing to remember which guy is where in the rankings and it is easy to forget how many points each method of finish is worth but they mention that on a regular basis. To be honest, when watching any match in this series (especially the multi-man matches) it is a little difficult to remember what a win would mean for each person. It definitely doesn't cater for a casual fan or someone who isn't paying attention.

I think the bigger point you and a lot of people are missing is that all that part doesn't really matter. One thing you have to give TNA credit for is they (Mike Tenay) make sure they thoroughly explain during the match exactly what the situation is for everyone involved and the leader board is constantly updated and shown during every BFG series match.

 

[IT Factor]

This is obviously a clear case of Jericho not knowing the Impact Product well enough to speak about the BFG tournament. If he watched the very first BFG tourney and followed the point system, he would have known exactly what it is and how it works. Are there flaws in the system? Yes. But WWE does that all the time and you don't see Y2J making comments about continuity issues. Why is that? I understand WWE loyalty and not wanting to jump to TNA. But criticizing them without knowing the concept shows that he is just talking to create controversy. Really, Seinfeld? TNA is bad at times but their show is a hell of a lot better than Seinfeld. Seinfeld is boring and not funny. Watch a Bad Influence promo, Chris! Much funnier. Still TNA did a pretty bad job with the tournament this year and hopefully they will do a better job next year.

 

[shalliin]

http://www.prowrestling.net/artman/publish/WWE/article10033390.shtml



This is really poorly paraphrased, I'd imagine, but the point still stands — how important is the mathematical side of this? I'll admit, while I get that it's intended to mimic a sports standings platform, the "who has time to follow this stuff" rule certainly applies. I didn't actually look at the BFG series numbers until probably the last week or two. I just didn't care. It didn't matter that much. Especially with points being earned or lost at house shows.

Frankly, Jericho may have it right. Or at least more right than the mathematical set up the series functions on right now. It makes sense, in a way, but it's also limited in two big factors. The first, as I already mentioned, is the care factor. Does anyone here sit around calculating percentages of what it will take for X performer to get in, or determine what the likely minimum cut-off will/would be for the final four? I sure as shit don't. The second, and the most important, is that it also limits the number of competitors that can in fact compete in this ever year. A round robin format where you win and you're in/advance is not only simpler, but allows for you to expand much broad across nearly the entire company from the start.

The BFG series is one of the better concepts TNA has come up with, but I'm not sure they've got it nailed down just yet. In that respect, Jericho is right. I wont' turn it off for Seinfeld though — that much I know.

Thoughts?

Jericho proves once again he's an idiot. I can see why someone as stupid as he is would have trouble keeping track of the numbers, but lets be completely honest here. The BFG series points totals means nothing anyway, since it's just a way of pairing up wrestlers that might not have a reason to fight otherwise and makes them able to show a little lazy booking instead of putting time into creating longer and more involved storylines between 2 wrestlers. Instead they can involve what, 12 guys in one angle and put on some good matches at the time still positioning the guy they really want to be there as the winner and getting the title shot. As for limitting the number of guys involved, that's a good thing. All tournaments need some type of participation limit. Otherwise it doesn't mean anything. Perhaps going to a win/loss only with no points would be better for people like Jericho, but then it's just another stale and boring tournament like every other tournament that exists in both wrestling and every other sport. Having the way that you win or loose have some impact on the 'standings' is a creative way of drawing interest to a tournament that otherwise would mean nothing and result in nothing.

I rarely watch TNA anymore any way, but when the BFG is going on, i do like to check the standings and track just how they are going to get the guy they want into the position they want, since it's more often then not someone who's way behind suddenly wins matches that give him big points even if by all rights in any type of real tournament, they would have no chance. Either the guy wins by submission(10pts) and the leaders get DQ'd(-whatever points) at the last series in order to position who they want and are pushing through the fans to win.

I can't recall a single time that the person leading the series for the larger part of the tournament actually won the event.

 

[Stinger]

Personally, I love the BFG Series, but I'd alter it a little bit. Instead of having 12 wrestlers in it, I'd lower the number to 10 or even 8, but I'd ensure that everyone wrestled each other once so everyone has an equal number of matches against the same quality of competition.

Personally, I don't mind that they keep use the points system based on how you win because not every win is created equally. But maybe it would be better to make it 10 points if you win by pinfall or submission, 5 points if you win by disqualification or countout, 3 points for a draw, and -10 points for being disqualified.

 

[shalliin]

This is obviously a clear case of Jericho not knowing the Impact Product well enough to speak about the BFG tournament. If he watched the very first BFG tourney and followed the point system, he would have known exactly what it is and how it works. Are there flaws in the system? Yes. But WWE does that all the time and you don't see Y2J making comments about continuity issues. Why is that? I understand WWE loyalty and not wanting to jump to TNA. But criticizing them without knowing the concept shows that he is just talking to create controversy. Really, Seinfeld? TNA is bad at times but their show is a hell of a lot better than Seinfeld. Seinfeld is boring and not funny. Watch a Bad Influence promo, Chris! Much funnier. Still TNA did a pretty bad job with the tournament this year and hopefully they will do a better job next year.

To be fair though, almost anything is better then Seinfeld. That and Friends, two of the worst periods of tv to ever exist. Notice how few of those people actually still have careers now and didn't join Kathy Griffin on the Dlist. Seriously, there were tons of stuff on tv that didn't get the chance they deserved because of idiots who force fed Seinfeld and Friends on us. I'd rather watch paint dry and would find it funnier then either of those shows. They jumped the shark too early and lasted too long.
Bad Influence promo might be funnier then either, but I still dont' find them entertaining. Personally, there's too much talk and not enough wrestling nowdays. I think all companys should institute a 1min time limit on promos, 5 min on in ring talk segments, and on a 2hr show, have at least 1hr30min of wrestling(not counting entrances). On a 3hr show like Raw, then at least 2hr20min of wrestling.
You don't even need to know that much about it. When it's going on they spend at least 10-15 min of time over the course of a 2hr show detailing and explaining the concept, standings, method of scoring points, and the reason for the tourny being a shot at the belt. All you have to track is who's in the lead and who the 2nd place is. Other then that, they spoon feed it all to you repeatedly every show.