Borat: The All Time Single Greatest Piece of Cinematography

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That's cool. But I absolutely hate when people do that. I hate when people argue for the sheer sake of arguing. If you don't even believe the argument your making yourself, what the hell is the point in arguing about it? Debate is fine and all but this is just silly.

Who said I was arguing for the sake of it, no where did I say I didn't believe what I was saying.

Well here's your first problem, thinking that awards and statistics are how you can measure art

I said that's what I DIDN'T do.

I get it, your in art school, I live next to bunch of them in Berkeley and San Francisco, I get the perspective, everyone I see is trying to tell me why some indie film is the better than sliced bread.



Indeed. I've given my interpretation of this film, I'm not really sure what you're trying to accomplish here by arguing with me about my own interpretation.

We obviously have differing opinions about what makes a movie Art, and I respect that.


Lol, funny shit man. Do I really need to point out how absurd it is that you're touting Borat as the greatest film ever while shitting on Blade Runner, a film superior to Borat in literally every way a film could be?

That's a fine opinion, but it doesn't change the fact that I find Blade Runner to be one the most boring movies ever made. I could watch Borat 100 times in a row and I'd rather watch it for the 101st time then having to sit threw Blade Runner Again ( Yes I was fucking high while watching it, it didn't help)

Well it doesn't make your argument look very credible. Why should we take your opinion on the world's greatest seriously again? Because you don't know what a cinematographer is?

.... And your more credible because you go to art school and enjoy indie flicks, doesn't change anything for me.


Dude I like you, I do. You've got good taste in music, you're a fellow stoner, and I have nothing bad to say about you. But, and remember this is simply my interpretation, Borat is nowhere near the discussion of best films ever. Nowhere near.

You know I'm a Fan X, and there is no way I'm backing down from my defense of Borat, I honestly didn't make this thread for the purpose of trolling. I knew everyone was going to pick the same fucking shit, and everyone did pick the same shit. The same movies that have been discussed before, I wanted to do something different, I was looking for a challenge. I was going to do Space Odyssey at first, then I was going to do Remember the Titans, then I though, let me see if I can make a legit argument for a movie that most won't agree with, and I feel I made a stellar argument. all your points are valid, and I do respect them, but I choose to defend this film to the death, and that's exactly what I'm doing.


Again with the "blah blah meaningless box office number and awful critics giving it a thumbs up", that doesn't prove the film's worth as you yourself have said repeatedly that art is open to interpretation.

So if my opinion isn't good enough, and my facts aren't good enough, what would you like me to say?


So again I ask, why are you responding to my posts and trying to argue with me about my own interpretation of this particular film? I gave my input on the thread topic, sorry you disagree with it, really couldn't care less honestly.

Well of course I disagree you big silly, I picked Borat, I've seen it a bunch of time, I know a lot about it, I've been of fan of Cohen since his early work, I'm simply defending my point.


It's just too bad that it really doesn't matter how many different demographics a film appeals to. It's an irrelevant factor in discussing the actual film itself, we're not talking about how it was received or who went to see it, the film itself.

I feel Borat has had a bigger influence on current culture and current society more than any of these old Italian Mafia films.

Let me ask you this, can you fuck a bitch with a limp cock? No, you cant. Just like I cant defend some movie from the 70's that I honestly could give two fucks about. I choose something that I could defend, and that's what I'm doing


It's just too bad he does it by being a total fucking baffoon and harassing people. Like I said, moderately funny movie with a good message and underlying intent, but to even begin to suggest this is the greatest film ever made is simply preposterous.

I know where your perspective is coming from, and now, hopefully you see where I'm coming from, again I respect your opinion X, but I'm not just going to bend over on this matter.
 
Greatest of all time? You're absolutely out of your mind. This movie sucked and wasn't even funny. I know why you found it funny though. Probably because you were so stoned, you were probably in the state of mind where you laugh at absolutely anything. I've seen this movie like twice, and I don't think I laughed once. It was a failed comedy and influenced absolutely nothing. Borat just sucked. Plain and simple. It might have been a box office it but in a few years time will it really be remembered? Probably not because it sucked. Controversy may create cash, but it doesn't mean this movie ranks anywhere near the top when it comes to the GOAT. Get out of here with this crap man.
 
Greatest of all time? You're absolutely out of your mind. This movie sucked and wasn't even funny. I know why you found it funny though. Probably because you were so stoned, you were probably in the state of mind where you laugh at absolutely anything. I've seen this movie like twice, and I don't think I laughed once. It was a failed comedy and influenced absolutely nothing. Borat just sucked. Plain and simple. It might have been a box office it but in a few years time will it really be remembered? Probably not because it sucked. Controversy may create cash, but it doesn't mean this movie ranks anywhere near the top when it comes to the GOAT. Get out of here with this crap man.

I'm honestly surprised it took so long for someone to tell me I was to fucking stoned, fact is, I'm practically permastoned so it really doesn't affect my judgment.

So, other than saying the movie sucks and you didn't like it, do you perhaps have anything of substance to add to your argument.

Everyone comes in here calling me crazy for picking this movie, and sure I guess I can see why. I decided not to choose a dinosaur of a movie made years before I was born, I decided not to follow everyone else, I decided not to be a sheep. You see, I thought for myself, made an intelligent OP, and I defended my decision.

What everyone seems to be forgetting is that there's no right answer to this question, It's all a matter of opinion, I stated why I thought this movie was the greatest of all time in OP. I picked it for the controversy, I picked it because it does something that no other movie does; It shows a side of America that most of us don't see, it shows in this day and age racism is still an issue in parts of America, it exposes that the south still has a ways to go to catch up with the rest of America, and it shows you can tackle serious issues through comedy.
 
This is my favorite comedy of all time, great choice SSC. The way Cohen plays Borat is really unique, he plays the character with the utmost amount of determination and dedication. There is not one moment in the movie where you don't buy what he is saying, he makes you believe he really behaves like that. The thing about it I enjoyed most is the shock value. I honestly didn't expect him to go that far. Hell, many people have seen that and a ton of people quote the movie on a daily basis... The movie just sticks with you.
 
Well fuck me in the face and call me Sally, I didn't know we still had posters that had the balls to go ahead and make an outright ridiculous thread with an absurd title and THEN go ahead and defend their stance. I think we used to call these posters "wankers".

No, no I kid. Good on you for picking a film that hasn't been listed commonly in Top 100 films of all time lists or anything. Shows real spunk. Unfortunately, in your haste to be an individualist, you seem to have neglected the fact that your selected movie is rubbish. Don't get me wrong. If you're a teenager and you stumble across this movie and have never heard of it, I'm sure you'll be very pleased with the contents. But the mark of a true comedy is one of timeless brilliance, as funny today as it was when it was made. This movie was fucking tired after the first week of people quoting it.

I'm all for quotable movies. Who hasn't quoted Brando or Samuel L Jackson or Alec Guiness? The main problem with Borat is, thats all there is. There are no other jokes. The movie is one car crash of quotable lines that aren't funny whatso fucking ever taken out of context.

This movie isn't the best of all time. It isn't the best comedy of all time, nor is it even the best mockumentary. You'd have been better off picking a foreign movie that no one has seen.
 
No, no I kid. Good on you for picking a film that hasn't been listed commonly in Top 100 films of all time lists or anything. Shows real spunk. Unfortunately, in your haste to be an individualist, you seem to have neglected the fact that your selected movie is rubbish. Don't get me wrong. If you're a teenager and you stumble across this movie and have never heard of it, I'm sure you'll be very pleased with the contents. But the mark of a true comedy is one of timeless brilliance, as funny today as it was when it was made. This movie was fucking tired after the first week of people quoting it.

Sure it's a comedy on the outside, but inside it's a neatly wrapped social satire that's unmatched by any of its predecessors; as well as the fact that it's so much more relevant in this day and age than anything that you'd find on a top ten list.

I'm not going to deny that I enjoyed all those immature one liners, I'm a proud owner of a maroon Borat Sexy Time shirt, I find it hysterical, but that's not why I chose it.


This movie isn't the best of all time. It isn't the best comedy of all time, nor is it even the best mockumentary. You'd have been better off picking a foreign movie that no one has seen.

I knew it would be tough too defend a comedy, but that's why I'm not defending it as a comedy, other than a simple reference in the OP I avoided bringing comedy into this argument.

As for being better off for picking a foreign movie that no one has has ever seen, well, just go look at Razors thread.
 
I must disagree with this, or your going to have to explain to me the new definition of fail?

Happy to.

Borat debuted at the number one spot in the US, making an estimated $26.4 million in just 837 theater averaging $31,600 per theater. That just so happens to be the fourth highest per-theater average of all time. Behind the likes of Pirates of the Caribbean, and Spider Man.

So? Since when did money on debut mean anything to a film's qualities? There are a million better films out there which have made both less and more money overall.

Cohen went big and made it big, he's a Hollywood staple now, he lent his voice to Madagascar and the sequel as well, he also made an appearance on the Simpsons too, all because of the success that is Borat.

He isn't big. Not at all. If he is a staple of Hollywood then Hollywood is in a sad state of affairs. Hollywood are more likely to call the newest SNL flavour of the year talent than Baron Cohen.

Sascha Baron Cohen made it thanks to Ali G. In the UK. And he also made Bruno which is a worst film than this. So I know all about him. He is a funny guy but his over the top antics wear thin quickly. I like that he attempted to comment socially on Southern American culture but he didn't show us anything new.

I fail to see how that's a failure?

That ^^ is the definition of a failure. Borat did well for him; he deserved the success but he couldn't follow it up. He went too far and blew it with Bruno. Every film star has done it. He is talented but you are overstating his abilities.

Best thing he ever did is bang Isla Fisher. Bastard.
 
Happy to.

I'm all ears.

So? Since when did money on debut mean anything to a film's qualities? There are a million better films out there which have made both less and more money overall.

Money, in my opinion, does factor into the overall success of a movie, and since success is the opposite failure it fits in perfectly, because you said it was a failure, the numbers clearly state this movie was not a failure.

He isn't big. Not at all. If he is a staple of Hollywood then Hollywood is in a sad state of affairs. Hollywood are more likely to call the newest SNL flavour of the year talent than Baron Cohen.

Well, let me give you a little eduction, Cohen is in fact part of a Hollywood power couple, in fact Cohen and his wife, actress Isla Fisher, made the 2009 top ten list for Hollywood's richest couples, coming in at 7 on that list. Cohen also starred along side Will Ferrell in Talladega Nights. Just because he doesn't take every script available doesn't mean he isn't a big Hollywood name.

Sascha Baron Cohen made it thanks to Ali G. In the UK. And he also made Bruno which is a worst film than this. So I know all about him. He is a funny guy but his over the top antics wear thin quickly. I like that he attempted to comment socially on Southern American culture but he didn't show us anything new.

Yes, I am very familiar with the Ali G show, I started watching it on HBO and that's how I was hooked on his comedy, He's an amazing character actor, the best character actor of the 21st century.

His antics may have worn thin on you quickly, but I still laugh every time I pop in my Ali G discs, and I would welcome more of his work. The only problem is he's too famous, that's right, he was so successful that he became to famous to continue the same line of comedy work.

Yes, I can see why you would think Bruno was quite shit, but again, Bruno served a purpose. It exposes just how much of a homophobic nation America is, that doesn't mean I enjoyed him swirling his cock around in my face, but the movie does prove a point.



That ^^ is the definition of a failure. Borat did well for him; he deserved the success but he couldn't follow it up. He went too far and blew it with Bruno. Every film star has done it. He is talented but you are overstating his abilities.

Best thing he ever did is bang Isla Fisher. Bastard.

He definitely pushed the envelope with Bruno, but as I just said, it served a purpose, just as Borat did, though I don't put Bruno anywhere near my top movie list, in fact I've only saw it once in theaters, and that was more than enough; but like I said, it served its purpose.

He wouldn't be banging Isla Fisher if he wasn't a Hollywood success.
 
Money, in my opinion, does factor into the overall success of a movie, and since success is the opposite failure it fits in perfectly, because you said it was a failure, the numbers clearly state this movie was not a failure.

Of course it reflects on the success of a film but do you seriously think it reflects on the quality of it? This is what you are saying.

Well, let me give you a little eduction, Cohen is in fact part of a Hollywood power couple, in fact Cohen and his wife, actress Isla Fisher, made the 2009 top ten list for Hollywood's richest couples, coming in at 7 on that list. Cohen also starred along side Will Ferrell in Talladega Nights. Just because he doesn't take every script available doesn't mean he isn't a big Hollywood name.

He wouldn't be banging Isla Fisher if he wasn't a Hollywood success.

He & Fisher got together in 2002 so correllating his success with her is frankly ridiculous. He was unknown in the US at this point.
 
Of course it reflects on the success of a film but do you seriously think it reflects on the quality of it? This is what you are saying.

I was strictly speaking to the word success, because you stated it to be a failure, and I was simply using box office numbers to prove that it was in fact a success.

Though, the box office success does speak a bit to the quality of the film, in my opinion it would not have made as much money if it wasn't as great as it was. If Cohen wasn't such a great character actor than the film wouldn't be nearly as successful as it was.


He & Fisher got together in 2002 so correllating his success with her is frankly ridiculous. He was unknown in the US at this point.

The Ali G show was airing on HBO in early 00', that's two years before they met, and as I've stated Borat was a staple on the Ali G show. We also all know how most Hollywood Marriages end up, and that's in the gutter. I'm not saying this definitively, but I'm sure all that money he made off Borat has helped to keep their relationship pretty stable. She also didn't convert to Judaism until after Borat was complete. So I think it's safe to say that Borat and the money from the film played at the very least a tiny role in relationship.
 
The parody genre and mockumenary genres are completely different.


How So?, Mocumentary are a style of parody, It's stated as such and is apart of the Parody genre.

Taken from Wikipedia.org
Mockumentary (also known as mock documentary) is a genre of film and television in which fictitious events are presented in documentary format; the term can also refer to an individual work within the genre. These productions are often used to analyze or comment on current events and issues by using a fictitious setting, or to parody the documentary form itself.
Parodies are movies that more or less are intended to make fun of other actual movies and/or pop culture events. Examples - All the Scary Movies, Meet the Spartans, Date Movie, Vampires Suck, etc.
I think I've just refuted your claim, Mocumentaries are in fact apart of the Parody Genre, just see above.


Also, I'd like to point out that Bruno came out well after Borat, so any "it's the same old shit, rabble, rabble, rabble" argument is really invalid, if you're using Bruno at least.

Borat and Bruno may have had different characters but they shared the same Off the wall style and basic structure, the fact that people paid millions to see both movies doesn't class either in the greatest movie of all time list.

So your point is moot.

No, you didn't. You lumped Borat into the same genre of film as Walk Hard, Scary Movie, and Vampires Suck. I even already told you that featuring a parody character isn't enough to qualify the film as part of that genre. It itself if not mocking pop culture in the same manner as the film you've listed.

Walk hard is a parody of walk the line is it not?, and document's the life of a fictatious character which leads pretty much the same life as Jonny cash, Dewey Cox played on alot on cash's dark times and parodied them, so wouldnt you say that this semi bio pick was a parody? just as Borat is a style of parody in mocumentary?

I've just refuted your claim, oh gosh!



By your measure, most every film then falls into the same genre as Scary Movie.
No only parodies such as Borat, whoops sorry Mocumentaries :suspic:


This is the argument. You are just wrong. Spinal Tap is a mockumentary, a genre Borat falls into more than it does the "parody" genre you seem to think it is.
Saying I'm wrong doesn't make it so.


A mockery of comedy and documentaries. Dare I say, a mockumentary?
See above...

And now to tackle the above thread title.

Cinematography, meaning

With Thanks to Wikipedia.org

Cinematography (from Greek: kinema - κίνημα "movement" and graphein - γράφειν "to record"), is the making of lighting and camera choices when recording photographic images for the cinema.
Now by your own biased opinion your saying that the lighting, camera, and cinematic process that makes this movie the all time greatest piece of cinematography.

With this choice in mind it doesn't even make this Movie an all time great piece of cinematography, lets break this film down a notch so I can defut your claim:
  • Most scenes in the film were unscripted
If i Just pointed a camera at someone and jumped at them, it would provide the same effect, it doesn't take any acting or directing to achieve this effect, I've seen balls of steel do the same thing.
  • 400 hours of footage where shot and edited into this movie
The Editor in this movie had a great deal of work, but Films such as the Matrix with its post structualist ideals had more editing and cinmatography work done, hell it won awards on it.
  • casting
This film had five cast members, that means five actors that the director had to manage, and virtually no scenes, location is the only thing that had to be handled in this Mocumentary as you will.
  • awards
Borat was beaten out by the Departed in the 79th annual Academy awards.

Was also beaten out by dreamgirls for best motion picture or comedy

Even though this film has made you laugh you have yet to provide a basis on why you think this film is the greatest of all time.
 
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Deexter, I see what you are trying to do, and that's lump this movie with the other shitty movies you gave as example by the tiniest thread. The fact that you cannot tell the difference between the two genres and instead focus on trying to make your point playing on words. You asked for proof, and I provided it. I like how you've avoided that in your reply. Here, I'll remind you again:

One only needs to watch the two and compare to find the proof.

[YOUTUBE]y7EXiv4YiJY[/YOUTUBE]
Scary Movie: Link

[YOUTUBE]KbTS7320n64[/YOUTUBE]
Borat: Link

Tell me how those two are the same lazy type of humor over and over? I dare you.

Again, since you seem to think they are carbon clones of each other in every way, kindly explain yourself.
 
And now to tackle the above thread title.

Cinematography, meaning

Now by your own biased opinion your saying that the lighting, camera, and cinematic process that makes this movie the all time greatest piece of cinematography.

With this choice in mind it doesn't even make this Movie an all time great piece of cinematography, lets break this film down a notch so I can defut your claim:
  • Most scenes in the film were unscripted
If i Just pointed a camera at someone and jumped at them, it would provide the same effect, it doesn't take any acting or directing to achieve this effect, I've seen balls of steel do the same thing.
  • 400 hours of footage where shot and edited into this movie
The Editor in this movie had a great deal of work, but Films such as the Matrix with its post structualist ideals had more editing and cinmatography work done, hell it won awards on it.
  • casting
This film had five cast members, that means five actors that the director had to manage, and virtually no scenes, location is the only thing that had to be handled in this Mocumentary as you will.
  • awards
Borat was beaten out by the Departed in the 79th annual Academy awards.

Was also beaten out by dreamgirls for best motion picture or comedy

Even though this film has made you laugh you have yet to provide a basis on why you think this film is the greatest of all time.

Deej, you're a little late to the party on this one, as X and Tdigs already stated this, and as I told them, I'm no expert in film terminology, my title is just there to draw. We both know this competition is our opinion of the greatest film of all time. So the fact that I put cinematography in my title doesn't actually mean anything.

It's simply bait, to get people into the thread, and I got the two biggest film critics on the site to come in here, and all they could do was argue over cinematography. Fact is it's not even relevant, because the topic is greatest film, not greatest cinematography, it was just a catchy title to help my thread stand out from the rest, and it worked. So if all you can argue is cinematography I suggest you find a new argument.

Also Deej, stop talking about the fact it's a comedy, because I could care less how funny it is, I chose it for other reasons, and if you would take the time to read the OP you would see that.
 
Deej, you're a little late to the party on this one, as X and Tdigs already stated this, and as I told them, I'm no expert in film terminology, my title is just there to draw. We both know this competition is our opinion of the greatest film of all time. So the fact that I put cinematography in my title doesn't actually mean anything.

It's simply bait, to get people into the thread, and I got the two biggest film critics on the site to come in here, and all they could do was argue over cinematography. Fact is it's not even relevant, because the topic is greatest film, not greatest cinematography, it was just a catchy title to help my thread stand out from the rest, and it worked. So if all you can argue is cinematography I suggest you find a new argument.

Also Deej, stop talking about the fact it's a comedy, because I could care less how funny it is, I chose it for other reasons, and if you would take the time to read the OP you would see that.

I found two different arguements, heres another, the film has not made any of the top 100 lists.

Whereas four out of the six films in the GOAT contest are mentioned, with Godfather taking the top spot, so why don't you attempt to refut that claim.

So if Borat isn't the greatest film of all time, or have the greatest cinematography than what was the point of this whole thread?.


Deexter, I see what you are trying to do, and that's lump this movie with the other shitty movies you gave as example by the tiniest thread. The fact that you cannot tell the difference between the two genres and instead focus on trying to make your point playing on words. You asked for proof, and I provided it. I like how you've avoided that in your reply. Here, I'll remind you again:
Again, since you seem to think they are carbon clones of each other in every way, kindly explain yourself.

And I provided proof that refuted your claim, it is not about the film in general its about the genre and both films are linked as such.

And Jose I didn't play on words, I stated the truth, you know facts, why don't you actually try to breakdown my arguement instead of persisting that I dont understand yours.
 
I found two different arguements, heres another, the film has not made any of the top 100 lists.

Whereas four out of the six films in the GOAT contest are mentioned, with Godfather taking the top spot, so why don't you attempt to refut that claim.

So if Borat isn't the greatest film of all time, or have the greatest cinematography than what was the point of this whole thread?.

I could care less what somebody else puts down on their list, I form my own opinion, I don't need to read what someone else says to form an opinion.

Lulz.... What's the point of this thread?? Are you serious?? You know the point of this thread. I choose a movie I deemed to be the greatest of all time, I stated the a clear set of facts to back my opinion, and have defended those facts to no end. That is the point of the thread.

I never said Borat wasn't the greatest film off all time, I don't know where you got that from, all I stated was the word cinematography is rendered useless in your argument, because the question is greatest film, not greatest cinematography. So me using the word cinematography was simply me standing out from the crowd. I stand by the my opinion that Borat is the greatest movie of all time.
 
I think people who find Borat offensive probably need to look at what the character is trying to acheive. The whole point isn't to shock, although there is a fair bit of that, it is designed as a character to expose people's ignorance. People, not American, remember this character was on Channel 4 in 1999. The point isn't that he's saying the Jews are bad, it is that he can invent the most ludicrous lies about Kazakh culture, and people buy into them as if they are true. Remember again, Kazakhstan is the 9th largest country on earth, and he is able to convince people that "The chasing of the Jew" is a genuine event. He doesn't even look remotely Kazakh.

This is Sacha Baron Cohen's modus operandi and always has been, one only need to see what he has done with Bruno and Ali G as further evidence to that. The film is an experiment in the absurd and seeing how far people will believe it. This has been a staple of British comedy for a good while -




Perhaps it is telling that it is the Americans that don't get this film.

Borat is an excellent comedy film, but I don't think a film which is so rough around the edges could come into contention as the greatest ever. To be honest, it's probably better suited to TV than the cinema, as there's nothing remotely cinematic about it.
 
The character Borat and Bruno are really over the top and controversial. For Sacha Baren Cohen to use real people and get involved in these serious situations risking his own life and even dodging being arrested is remarkable. His television shows and movies point out people's ignorance and stereotypes. I guess you could compare to Jackass since the Jackass crew gets themselves in situations with real people causing hilarious results. The difference is that the Jackass guys aren't actors for the most part. They do play some different characters. No one really complains about Jackass since they are bunch of guys getting kicked in the genitals and being shot out of a cannon.

I think people would be more receptive of Sacha Baren Cohen's characters if he was doing Jackass stunts just to cause himself harm for a laugh. The whole film is a satire and should be viewed as such. It isn't a real movie that takes itself seriously. We shouldn't take it seriously either.
 
The character Borat and Bruno are really over the top and controversial. For Sacha Baren Cohen to use real people and get involved in these serious situations risking his own life and even dodging being arrested is remarkable. His television shows and movies point out people's ignorance and stereotypes. I guess you could compare to Jackass since the Jackass crew gets themselves in situations with real people causing hilarious results. The difference is that the Jackass guys aren't actors for the most part. They do play some different characters. No one really complains about Jackass since they are bunch of guys getting kicked in the genitals and being shot out of a cannon.

I think people would be more receptive of Sacha Baren Cohen's characters if he was doing Jackass stunts just to cause himself harm for a laugh. The whole film is a satire and should be viewed as such. It isn't a real movie that takes itself seriously. We shouldn't take it seriously either.

While I agree in context with most of what your saying here, I do believe that there was purpose behind this film, more so than the exterior Jew jokes and toilet humor would lead you to believe. Cohen is a very intelligent individual, and he has always dealt with political issues in a humorous way. Both season of the Ali G show where very heavy with the underlined political opinions, and I feel he just did an incredible job of disguising his message with humor.

What's so great about the film is you don't have to take it seriously, you can watch it for the sole purpose of being entertained, or just to have a good laugh, but it's so much deeper than that. Sure it can be viewed as one of the funniest, if not the funniest movie of all time, but the fact that it also delivers a very powerful message, deals with religion and race relations as well as uncovering so many social issues that we deal with each and every day in society is what really puts this film over the top; and it's those reasons why I consider Borat to be the greatest film of all time.
 
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