2012 Debater's League Tournament Championship Match: hatehabsforever -vs- The Killjoy

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D-Man

Gone but never forgotten.
First off, congratulations to both competitors for making it to the finals of this grueling contest. We know it was a long season and we sincerely appreciate your hard work, dedication and professionalism throughout. However, Dagger and I are very happy to see debaters of this magnitude make it this far in the tournament.

On behalf of Dagger and myself, we wish you both the best of luck!!


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The final* topic for this year's Debate League is...

Which is the more controversial debate topic and why:

Should the Undertaker's streak end?

-or-

Should John Cena turn heel?

hatehabsforever won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals. If a debater is late with their post, their opponent can post again and continue posting every 24 hours until they receive a reply. More posts equal a better chance of gaining the Persuasive points in the debate.

There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY. Due to the upcoming holidays, (and especially due to depth of this topic, it will receive a special final-match extension and end on Monday, June 4th at 2pm (unless the debater's agree to end early.) Judging will begin immediately after the close of the debate.

Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

Good luck to the participants!!!


*If hatehabsforever wins this round, it will force a second, tie-breaking championship match.
 
As has been the case throughout the entire 2012 Debater's League, this is another excellent topic of debate, one which should spawn some interesting discussion on either side of the equation. However for me, the choice was actually very easy.

The most controversial debate topic of the two listed is clearly:

Should John Cena turn heel?

I wish The Killjoy all the best of luck in this debate. He gave me all I could handle, and then some, way back in the opening round of this competition, handing me my only defeat over the last couple of months. Hopefully the result will be different this time. Either way, it should be a lot of fun.

Oh, and for the record, let's not be too presumptuous in calling this the final topic of this year's Debater's League. Because if I have anything to say about it, and with a little luck, I hope there's going to be one more.
 
With that in mind, first off, Habs. You are always there to challenge me, aren't ya? ;) But I've got no problem. Not that I'm making excuses, but this is a very important week for me since my dad is stopping by. So don't feel worried about any possible delays. I'll be delayed, but not out. Now, show me your A-game because I choose you to kick this thing off.

I Choose To Go Second.


Good luck.
 
[size=+2]Introduction[/size]​

[size=+1] Controversial: [/size] giving rise or likely to give rise to public disagreement.

Link: http://www.google.com/search?q=controversial+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari

This is the definition of controversial which I found online at the above link. And if they had a photograph adjacent to the definition, it should have been a picture of John Cena revolving around the concept of whether or not he should turn heel. Because as far as controversial topics go in the world of professional wrestling, the notion of a John Cena heel turn is truly the hot topic. Will it happen? Should it happen? When will it happen? Will it work if it does happen? What will be the fallout? And on and on and on. The Undertaker and the infamous "streak" can draw it's share of discussion in it's own regard, but it is nowhere near as controversial as the idea of a John Cena heel turn. The more hotly contested point of discussion is clearly pertaining to the heel turn, or lack thereof, of John Felix Anthony Cena. And now I'll tell you why.

[size=+2]The Most Polarizing Figure[/size]​

I don't think there has ever been a professional wrestler in the history of the WWE who has ever been quite as polarizing as John Cena. There's no denying that love him or hate him, he is the face of the largest professional wrestling organization in the world. He's been front and center in the company ever since his astronomical rise to fame in the mid 2000's. Yet, I'm sure if you lined up 100 professional wrestling fans in a row nowadays and asked them if they were fans of John Cena or not, approximately 50 would say yes, they love him, and the other approximately 50 would say no, they hate him. Don't believe me? Here's a typical night in the professional life of John Cena.


Granted, this clip was largely orchestrated by Cena himself, but the point is still the same. This type of fan division regarding Cena is a weekly occurrence on RAW, on Smackdown, not to mention on PPV. And it is this type of mixed reaction that fuels the controversy of the John Cena heel turn concept.

When John Cena first rose to significance in the WWE in 2005, he became extremely popular very quickly. Remember this dude?:


Full blown heel, insults flying while wearing a Yankees jersey in his home state of Massachusetts. However, in riding this gimmick, he rose to the top of the business and got over with the fans in an extremely short period of time.

Yet, over the years, he abandoned this gimmick in favor of the whole super-Cena schtick:


So which John Cena is the superior version? Which one do the fans want to see in 2012 and beyond? The heel rapper version of his early days? Or the uber face, over the top face version of more recent times? And as such, should he maintain his current face status, for a bunch of reasons I'll get into later? Or should he revert back to his roots, where some would argue he had a different sort of connection with the fans? Let the controversy wage on. And as I said earlier, half will pick one version, half the other, which makes this debate truly the most controversial.

Because let's face it, for every image of this:

john-cena-posing-with-kids-2.jpg

we also see this:

ecw-ons2006_ifcenawinsweriot.jpg

[size=+2]John Cena Should Remain A Face[/size]​

John Cena should unquestionably remain as a face. In his current incarnation, he's the face of the biggest professional wrestling organization in the world. After all, it is the PG Era, and he is the prototype (no pun intended) of these times. He is so over with the kids and the female audience especially:

John-Cena-Fans-2.jpg

He moves merchandise like no one before him, and the financial implications of a character shift would be very detrimental to the WWE:

q5Ir.jpg

His charitable efforts in the world beyond the confines of the WWE are second to none, and the WWE would not want to risk jeopardizing this with a heel turn.

John-Cena-Make-A-Wish-Milestone.jpg

And of course, he is well known in the mainstream media, which brings exposure to the company, which has to be seen as a positive thing.

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legendary_movie_poster-john_cena-patricia_clarkson-danny_glover-devon_graye.jpg

So clearly, there's absolutely no way that John Cena could or should ever turn heel, it would be blasphemy to suggest it. After all, just ask this guy:

spader.jpg


Case closed, right?

[size=+2]John Cena Should Definitely Turn Heel[/size]​

Not so fast.

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There is still a vocal opposition to John Cena. The product has gotten stale and predictable. Ratings are far lower than they used to be back in the day, and this clearly means that it is all John Cena's fault. It is time to shake things up a little, and re- energize the product, with a swerve of monumental proportions, one which will shake the world of professional wrestling to it's very core. Sort of like this:


John Cena has been front and center for far too long and let's face it, he won't be here forever. It is time to start to develop some younger talent and push them to the forefront, and how better to do so than to oppose a heel John Cena? And we know John Cena can pull of a heel persona. After all, it his initial meteoric rise to fame, he basically did so as a heel.

The storyline writes itself. After all I've done for you, you continue to boo me. I pour out my heart and soul for you people every single solitary week, and you boo me. I never take time off. WWE has been my entire life, to the detriment of my personal life. I return from injuries after working like a dog to bet back, and you still boo me.

The Rock bails out on all you guys, turns his back on you and the business, while I'm still here. Yet you cheer him and boo me. Lesnar does the same, yet when he returns and busts open my lip, you cheer him and you boo me. So to hell with all of you, no matter what I do, or who I face, you are going to jeer and boo me anyway, so I'll give you something to boo about. Cue the full blown heel turn. There are those out there clamoring to see some version of this unfold. If you don't believe me, look through a plethora of old threads on these forums debating this very point.

The point of these last two sections? There are two separate and distinct, yet passionate, schools of thought regarding John Cena and whether or not he should remain face or turn heel. And it is the coexistence of these divergent viewpoints that makes the topic the more controversial of the two ideas posed in this debate thread.

[size=+2] The Undertaker And The Streak[/size]​

I speculated earlier that if you lined up 100 fans of professional wrestling and posed the John Cena likeability question to them, you'd likely get a 50:50 split. While I cannot prove it, I'd be willing to bet that if you polled the same 100 pro wrestling fans and asked them, should the Undertaker's undefeated Wrestlemania streak ever end, the overwhelming majority would say no, the streak should the untouchable and as such it should never end. Simply put, I just don't see this issue being anywhere near as controversial as the John Cena heel turn question. I don't think we'd see nearly the divergence of opinion regarding the streak that we see regarding Cena.

The Undertaker's undefeated Wrestlemania streak is the stuff of legends, and the man himself is a true phenom in the history of professional wrestling and specifically the WWE. He has earned such respect amongst the fans of the product, amongst his peers, and amongst the folks in charge in Connecticut. The loyalty he displayed during the darkest days of the Monday Night Wars, when he must have been enticed to abandon ship along with the others and seek greener pastures down south, that is something that should be and always will be rewarded.

Simply put, there's absolutely no reason for the streak to end. Unlike the John Cena question, where a plausible argument can be made on either side of the coin, there is simply no logical tangible reason to terminate the streak. This notion simply cannot be as controversial, as I don't think it would generate the same range of opposing opinions.

At the end of the day, both topics lend themselves to some interesting discussion. But in an assessment of which topic would be the most controversial, the choice is clear. The debate over whether or not a John Cena heel turn should occur is clearly the more controversial topic of the two. Easily.
 
The Streak. It Is Freakin' Touchy

You look at The Streak and compare it to John Cena's role as a face or heel. What's the difference? The Streak is a world of endless possibilities. John Cena's heel turn is a simple yes or no. With The Streak not only do you have "Yes or No", but you have to wonder who faces The Deadman, who should come close, who shouldn't. It is far more elaborate.

Sting-Undertaker-Streak.jpg

Sting. Adding even more to the controversial subject of the Streak.

A Formula To Put Things In Perspective

When you discuss John Cena turning heel, just how deep does the hindsight go? Yes, no and how. And even so, most people don't go into detail with the "how". But with The Streak... Oh, every year...

undertakercena_original.jpg

Even when discussing Cena turning heel, the streak will come up.

"Triple H is going for it a third time!"

"Hell In A Cell"

"It shouldn't be him!"

"He's an egomaniac, he'll do it!"

"It should be John Cena"

"It should be someone young"

"It should be a legend"

"It should remain untouched"

"I want it to end, but I fear it will suck"

"It should be a guy from TNA"

"Cunt"

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It's a topic the suits can't ignore since it's a yearly selling point.

It's stuff like that that add to the controversy of the topic. Not just that, but how "predictable" it is to have anyone face Undertaker at Wrestlemania, how The Streak takes away from title matches and beyond. The discussion of The Streak brings about more than simple yes or no and as such is more controversial due to the levels of discussion and possibilities of difference in opinion. Not only that, but it's a controversy WWE has to go through every year.

"Who'll face 'Taker this year?"

"How will we set it up?"

"Should he win or lose?"

"How will he win or lose?"

"Is this guy good enough?"

"Is The Undertaker OK with this?"

"Can it generate enough attention?"

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"Think about it. It doesn't get any deeper than *Let's Go Cena!-Cena Sucks!*

There is just no way the subject of John Cena turning heel can develop such depth or level of controversy. You could go into details about how Cena generates a lot as a face or how a heel turn could refresh him and the WWE, but just what else are you going to agree or disagree about?
 
I have to say after reading your response, Killjoy, I have to respectfully and completely disagree with your response in it's entirety.

Let's break it down.

The Undertaker

Regarding the Undertaker and whether or not "the streak" should ever be ended, you say that ending the streak opens up a world of possibilities, whereas the John Cena heel turn issue is a simple yes or no scenario. I couldn't disagree more. I'll deal with Cena in a minute or two, but for now, let's look at the Undertaker.

taker.jpg

Make no mistake about it, I love the Undertaker, I'm a huge fan and I think I always will be until the day he finally decides to step away from the business. But let's be serious for a minute. The man is 47 years old and is not exactly in peak physical condition. After a sure fire, lengthy, illustrious Hall of Fame career, one which he should be very proud of, the man's better days are far behind him. That's why he works an extremely restricted schedule these days, an honor he richly deserves. That being said, though, his restricted schedule in and of itself will minimize the accomplishment of ending the streak. Nowadays, he competes at Wrestlemania, puts off an awesome show, then disappears again from late March or early April until late January or early February of the following year. In the interim, no RAW appearances. No Smackdown appearances. No PPV events. Extremely few, if any, promos or video montages until the Road to Wrestemania begins again, at which point he reappears. He appears every other week to cut a promo, we are inundated by videos and promos, but we see no in ring action, no physicality, until the grandest stage of them all, at which point he competes, and then the cycle repeats. So really, when push comes to shove, how much would ending the streak really matter? There would be the initial shock, possibly even outrage, and then life would go on. No one would really think much about it until 9-10 months later, as the Road to Wrestlemania comes around again.

The drama of who faces the Deadman? Really? Let's look at the options:

TNA-Sting-The-Joker.jpg

There is the wet dream of the Sting/Undertaker Wrestlemania moment. But while Calloway is 47 and decrepit, Borden is 53 and equally limited physically at this late stage of his career. While this would likely provide some drama, would this really mean that much to either of these guys at this stage of the game? Sure, this would generate interest, even a little controversy, but where would it lead in the grand scheme of things? Nowhere really, as both guys have one leg out the door leading to retirement. Any controversy generated by this would pale in comparison to a John Cena heel turn.

Of course, there could be the notion of someone else coming from elsewhere to face Taker and challenge the streak. I don't really know who else of significance would fit the bill. Possibly this fellow?

i-4.jpg

Really, same scenario basically as with Sting. No real future, no real benefit to be served. Seeing a match up between any returning superstar or anyone else from TNA would not have the same impact (no pun intended) or generate as much controversy as a John Cena heel turn would.

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These guys have both done recent big time returns, so having them face off against the Undertaker will have a certain "been there, done that" feel to it. I don't think seeing these guys threaten the streak would generate the same type of controversy that a John Cena heel turn would produce. Let's face it, these guys aren't sticking around, so having them end the streak proves nothing. And having him prolong his streak against them would hardly be controversial.

You mention some young guy coming along to challenge the Undertaker for the streak. All due respect to the younger members of the WWE roster, but is there anyone you can envision threatening the streak, anyone who you could see face the Undertaker at Wrestlemania with any realistic chance of success? CM Punk, Daniel Bryan, The Miz, Randy Orton, Cody Rhodes, Dolph Ziggler, whoever. None of these guys have a realistic shot at ending arguably the most coveted prize in pro wrestling. There'll be no controversy here, because it simply will never happen. And if by some stretch of the imagination it ever did, then what? The young superstar moves forward with a major notch on his belt, but it will remain to be seen what he ends up doing with momentum of this sort.

There's realistically only one guy who has any shot whatsoever at ending the streak, and we all know who that is.

John-Cena.jpg

And this would create controversy involving Cena, more so than it would because of the streak itself. Because realistically, the only way it would ever happen, and the end result of it would likely be, a John Cena heel turn.

John Cena

In stark contrast to the Undertaker, John Cena is 35 years old and is in peak physical condition. Sure, he has had some injuries, but realistically, he's still in the prime of his career. So if a John Cena heel turn were to happen, it would have major widespread impact upon ever aspect of WWE programming. John Cena, like him or not, is a beast. He's always there. Always. He never takes time off. Following a heel turn, he would be present on every episode of RAW, every episode of Smackdown, and every PPV to see how it would all unfold. And this fact in and of itself would make the turn so much more controversial, as it would begin to play out that night, the very next night, and onwards and upwards for as long as the WWE elects to run with it. The controversial impact of it all would be monumental, and we would see it play out on a weekly basis, not just once a year for a couple of weeks.

And a swerve involving John Cena would far and away transcend a simple yes or no question. The controversy generated by the heel turn would be far reaching. The focal point of his audience these days is women and children. Would they remain loyal to him, or would they turn their backs on him in disgust and root for whoever would rise up to oppose him?

images

The vocal male adult audience who have grown so weary of super Cena over the years, would they now view him differently, or would those guys who love to boo him now, simply continue to do so?

12_John_Cena_040709_1239164522.jpg

How about ratings? Would we see a ratings surge due to the John Cena heel turn, or would the ratings continue to stagnate right where they are, thus ending the fallacy that Cena is responsible for the less than stellar numbers generated by WWE these days?

How would the heel turn play out? What would be the precipitating factor in finally bringing it to a head?

20120409_LARGE_raw_v_cena_brock_R_large.jpg

How long would it go on for? Would it be permanent transition to the dark side? Would it be a very transient and short lived experiment, before a rapid return to the super Cena of old? Or would it be somewhere in between?


I reiterate my earlier assertion, that a John Cena heel turn would have far greater consequences upon the WWE than would someone ending the Undertaker's undefeated Wrestlemania streak. And as I said in my previous post, the level of controversy generated would be far more significant.

The notion of a John Cena heel turn, for all of the reasons stated in my two posts, would be far more controversial. There would be such a high percentage of the WWE fan base that would be so distraught and upset by this development. Having to see it all play out on a week by week basis, seeing their hero spiral down the dark path to a full blown heel turn, would be upsetting to many, especially the younger members of the WWE audience. Simultaneously, though, it would be applauded by others, and seeing two such divergent viewpoints and emotions being generated by the move, that's the personification of controversy. I would be difficult to imagine a consensus being reached on the matter, which to me makes it seem very controversial.

Whereas the Undertaker seeing his undefeated Wrestlemania steak end would be far less controversial. I think it would be universally frowned upon, with far more people being opposed to it, than supporting it. And however it all played out, the controversy generated would be greatly restricted by the lack of presence of the Undertaker subsequent to the event.
 
I have to say after reading your response, Killjoy, I have to respectfully and completely disagree with your response in it's entirety.

Well if you didn't that would kinda beat the purpose of all this wouldn't it?

But here's the thing. You talk about how The Undertaker isn't around all year long. Why would that affect the controversy of the topic? You see it all the time in the forum. Ask the mods how many threads related to these two subjects they close. How does that stop the conversations? Well it doesn't. The Streak is always elaborate and complex and extends as the years build on it. It started with young guys taking a crack at beating The Phenom and now major names go at it. You have these amazing scenarios revolving Triple H and Shawn Michaels, before that it was Shawn being obsessed and that's just gonna keep going.

The drama of who faces the Deadman? Really? Let's look at the options:
TNA-Sting-The-Joker.jpg

That's all you got? Sting? Out of so many that haven't had a major match with The Undertaker, Sting is the only one you could pluck? Stop kidding yourself, Habs. You know it's a world of endless opportunity. It could be a guy like The Miz, Cody Rhodes or Dolph Ziggler deciding they want to do something impressive. It helped Orton, so why not? It could be a big name wanting to make one last impact like Chris Jericho or CM Punk. Or it could be Cena himself.

You reply and you disagree, all you do is prove my point. Why? Because of how elaborate your reasoning will be as to why these guys aren't the right choices. And if you do see right choices, arguments of whether they should win or lose will come up. The Streak is an endless fountain of conversations, no matter what you say, who you suggest, there will be a point were you will disagree.

And a swerve involving John Cena would far and away transcend a simple yes or no question. The controversy generated by the heel turn would be far reaching. The focal point of his audience these days is women and children. Would they remain loyal to him, or would they turn their backs on him in disgust and root for whoever would rise up to oppose him?

images

The vocal male adult audience who have grown so weary of super Cena over the years, would they now view him differently, or would those guys who love to boo him now, simply continue to do so?

12_John_Cena_040709_1239164522.jpg

How about ratings? Would we see a ratings surge due to the John Cena heel turn, or would the ratings continue to stagnate right where they are, thus ending the fallacy that Cena is responsible for the less than stellar numbers generated by WWE these days?

How would the heel turn play out? What would be the precipitating factor in finally bringing it to a head?

20120409_LARGE_raw_v_cena_brock_R_large.jpg

How long would it go on for? Would it be permanent transition to the dark side? Would it be a very transient and short lived experiment, before a rapid return to the super Cena of old? Or would it be somewhere in between?


I reiterate my earlier assertion, that a John Cena heel turn would have far greater consequences upon the WWE than would someone ending the Undertaker's undefeated Wrestlemania streak. And as I said in my previous post, the level of controversy generated would be far more significant.
It's kinda cute the way you try to stretch a yes or no question that revolves around one guy into something that sounds complex. We're looking for controversy. Not possible consequences. It's not a very controversial topic if it's universally frowned upon and the streak is certainly not something everyone wants untouched.

Every year you see signs with (X-1). Some people do want Taker to lose and people still believe that streak will indeed end. Everything is possible in the world of pro wrestling. it's just funny you actually think it's universally frowned upon to end the streak. You in people's heads? I tend to see slightly split crowds, especially during the HBK saga, so ending it is certainly not something out of the question.

Returning to the controversy thing, you have John Cena. Should he turn heel or not?

Yes?
But what about the merchandise, the guest spots and the kids?


No?
But what about the product and it's seemingly stale state? What about giving others a chance?


That's a pretty small margin of discussion isn't it?

Who should face Taker?
Cena, Sting, Ziggler, Miz, Jericho, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, you get the point.

Should he end the Streak?
Yes! No!


Should the Streak end?
Yes! No! Depend on who!


Well who?!
Cena! No/Yes! Sting! No/Yes! The Rock! No/Yes!


See the controversy? Something new to disagree on always comes up.
 
The fact of the matter is, the Undertaker is not a year long presence in the WWE anymore, and the part time nature of his appearances absolutely affects the controversial nature of the idea of ending the streak. Because he is only around from late January to early April (maximum) and he isn't even around every week during this short time period, discussion of whether or not the end of the streak should be even considered only occurs for about a third of the year. How much discussion actually goes on about whether or not the streak should end in the period from May through December? Very little I would imagine. How many Undertaker streak threads are getting started and closed in July? I'd say not many. How many "X-1" signs are visible in the crowds in October? Virtually none. It's a hot topic for about four months of the year, and then it disappears for the other eight months of the year. Therefore, it is not as hotly controversial a topic as it is only discussed for about a third of the year, then it is forgotten about.

In stark contrast, the John Cena heel turn notion is discussed year round. On the Road to Wrestlemania, it was widely discussed.

20120307_WM28_rock_cena.jpg


Would this be the feud that would precipitate the John Cena heel turn? Would facing a veteran from the Attitude Era, in the hostile environment of the Rock's hometown, be enough to push Cena over the edge? Many people thought it was finally going to happen, while just as many thought it wouldn't. Lots of people wanted to see it, just as many did not. This is the definition of controversy, when a potential development has a schism through the entire fan base, with just as many people on either side of the coin, arguing it just as plausibly and just as passionately.

Right on the heels of this, we saw:

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And the division continues. Would seeing the fans cheer Lesnar, who turned his back on the fan base in a very vocal fashion, and boo Cena, would this be enough to fuel a heel turn? And the controversial debate waged on again.

Even as recently as this week on RAW, we saw deep division among the fan base. Despite the shenanigans of Laurinaitis, Eve, Otunga, Big Show, and later a plethora of young guys such as Reks and Hawkins, we saw this:


Very pronounced "let's go Cena/Cena sucks" chanting. And this goes on all year long, keeping the discussion of a John Cena heel turn as a year long discussion, unlike the ending of the streak. And because it is being discussed to a greater degree over a far greater period of time, it has to be seen as the more controversial topic of the two.


The next part of this discussion amused me. You appear to be suggesting that my suggestion of Sting as a potential candidate to end the streak was not a great choice. Yet, in your earlier thread:

Sting-Undertaker-Streak.jpg


you were the one to suggest him. "Sting. Adding even more to the controversial subject of the Streak".

And you seem to suggest he was the only one I proposed. You must have missed the pictures of Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, The Rock, and John Cena, and you must also have overlooked my listing of Punk, Bryan, Miz, Orton, Rhodes, or Ziggler. Sting was by no means "all I got".

With all due respect, I think you've missed a key component of the discussion at hand. With regards to the potential ending of the streak, the controversy was not about who should do it, but rather, should it happen at all, regardless of at whose hand. I see very little mention in your posts about whether or not the streak should end in the first place. And in the various threads that crop up during the Road to Wrestlemania regarding the streak, most discussions are not pertaining to the reasons why the streak should end, or the reasons why it shouldn't. The discussions are more about whether wrestler X should be the guy to do it or not. The question posed in the debate topic is, is the idea of the streak ending the more controversial point? And as I have stated earlier, I think if the fan base were to be polled about whether or not the streak should end, the overwhelming consensus would be that it should not. Obviously that's purely speculative opinion, but I'd be willing to bet I'm right.

The controversy to be discussed here is whether or not the streak should end, not who should do it or why. Perhaps you could suggest reasons to me why some members of the WWE Universe think the streak should end, as well as reasons why other members of the Universe think it should not. Forget discussions of by whom, just discussions of whether or not it should end in the first place. I'd love hear logical reasons why the streak should be terminated, and how significant a percentage of the fan base would feel this way.


The issue of the John Cena heel turn is complex, there's nothing cute about that suggestion at all. It's not a simple yes or no question, it goes well beyond that and you know it. And the possible consequences of turning him into a heel, or the consequences of maintaining the status quo, that's what spawns the controversy in the first place.

In looking at the very colorful end of your most recent post, I find it interesting how you dramatically oversimplify the notion of the John Cena heel turn, while grossly overexaggerating the idea of the ending of the streak.

"But what about the merchandise, the guest spots and the kids?".

Seems pretty simplistic when you condense it all down into one sentence. But seeing how pivotal financial considerations are in anything WWE related, it's hardly simplistic at all. The fact that you have such divergent opinions on the significance of these parameters is what fuels the controversy. Such a large number of fans think the negative impact of a Cena heel turn on merchandise, kids, and mainstream perception will ensure that it cannot, will not, and should not happen. Equally large numbers feel that for equally plausible reasons, it has to happen. This is where the controversy lies, and you cannot condense it down into one blue sentence. Try to convince Slyfox, for example, that a Cena heel turn should happen. Try to convince a Cena hater that it should not. The level and complexity of the controversy becomes clear and fast.

The red sentence is equally oversimplistic.

What about giving others a chance?

A simple statement like this could yield a lengthy list of others who could be given a chance to rise to prominence if Cena turned heel. Of course, this takes us off topic, much like your propensity to suggest who should end the streak, rather than whether or not anyone should end it, equally takes us off topic.

"Who should face Taker?" Largely irrelevant to a discussion of the controversy of whether or not the streak should end in the first place.

Your orange, green, and purple statements essentially state the same thing over and over again. I guess you are trying to make the issue look more complex than it actually is, and that's even after you drift off topic from what question was being originally posed.


At the end of the day, we see two widely divergent schools of thought, both of which have avid and passionate believers, about whether or not this guy:

168995.jpg

should revert back into this guy:

images


In my opinion, we don't see nearly the division amongst the fan base between whether or not this record:

03537Api.jpg

should eventually:

b-grave,0.jpg


With less division amongst the fan base, there's less controversy. And it's as simple as that.
 
Make no mistake about it, I am not trying to suggest for one second that a conversation regarding the disruption of the Undertaker's undefeated Wrestlemania streak would not come without it's share of controversy. It would be foolish to suggest such a development, or even suggestion of it's possibility, would not be controversial.

images


But the question at hand is, of these two highly controversial potential occurrences, which one would be the more controversial, and I feel the clear and obvious choice here would be the potential John Cena heel turn. As stated previously, it is a year long perpetual discussion regarding the biggest name in professional wrestling today, undergoing a monumental character shift at the height of his career. There are significant numbers of members of the WWE Universe with very strong viewpoints regarding the Cena heel turn, or lack thereof, and the polar opposite and divergent standpoints make this topic the more controversial one. This is in stark contrast to the seasonal discussion regarding the potential for the disruption of Taker's perfect WM record, in the twilight of his career, which when all would be said and done, would have very little impact upon future developments and story lines in the WWE.

Once again, I feel compelled to point out that the question at hand is not who should end the Undertaker's streak, or if wrestler X is the right choice of guy to do it. The question is, should the Undertaker's streak be ended, by anyone? And I'm still waiting for someone to suggest a plausible reason to me why such a respected and significant accolade should be terminated.

It would appear to me that for a topic of conversation to be truly controversial, there has to be some plausibility to the event occurring. As I have stated previously, the main issue here is whether or not the streak should end. This specific topic does not seem to be to be a hot topic of conversation. I don't tend to see much discussion over whether or not the streak should end. I would respectfully suggest that I don't think the streak should end, and I don't think it will end either. And it appears I am not alone in doubting that the streak will be disrupted.

Look at the predictions from the WrestleZone Predictions Contest thread for WM this year:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=210092

I went through the predictions amongst our own Wrestlezone members regarding the outcome of the Triple H/Undertaker match. No one predicted a victory by Triple H. Not one person. How about the year before that?

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=161621

Again, not one prediction from a single Wrestlezone member predicting a win by Triple H which would bring the streak to a conclusion.

What does this tell me?

I see very little discussion on these forums suggesting that the streak should or should not end. So there does not appear to be much controversy pertaining to the question at hand. And even when the question gets expanded as to whether or not people expect the streak to end (which is not the actual question at hand), there does not appear to be much controversy either. The issue of, should the Undertaker's streak end, or do people think the streak will end, does not appear to me to be that controversial at all. And certainly not when compared to:

187844_193305910757456_125992057_n.jpg
 
Unfortunately, The Killjoy appears to be preoccupied with personal matters beyond the confines of the Wrestlezone forums. So while I've been waiting for him to return, I've been reading a few articles pertaining to the potential John Cena heel turn. Some interesting stuff.

link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...na-must-turn-heel-on-wrestlings-biggest-stage

A very interesting read concerning the potential John Cena heel turn. After reading this article, one is tempted to feel that a John Cena heel turn is imminent and it absolutely has to happen, right?

link: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1129832-wwe-knows-a-john-cena-heel-turn-wont-work

Not so fast. On one side of the coin, a John Cena heel turn has to happen. Yet, in the same breath, a John Cena heel simply won't work. Controversial? You bet.

Of course, the opinion of the wrestler in question should count for something, right?

link: http://www.cagesideseats.com/2012/4...urning-heel-i-would-fight-that-tooth-and-nail

Hopefully, the opinion of Cena himself would count for something, so the WWE would never turn him heel if he is so opposed to the idea.

link: http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=216594

Yet, according to this gem, compliments of Coco, John Cena would be receptive to a shocking heel turn. So is Cena open to a heel turn, or is he opposed to it? Pretty controversial stuff, if you ask me.

There is no denying, the concept of a John Cena heel turn is the more controversial idea of the two proposed topics. Lots of suggestion that it could or should happen, yet just as much discussion that it cannot or should not happen. And that's the very definition of controversy.

04570623295763fbefaf70d934864424.jpg


cena_heel_display_image.jpg%3Fw%3D700
 
Are you gonna keep trying to deconstruct my stuff by just repeating the same thing or are you gonna actually give me solid examples? Merchandise, kids, that's all stuff that's on the surface. Things you can mention, but their effect may not be as deep as believed. I certainly don't recall the world revolting at the sight of Hulk Hogan's heel turn in 1996.

hogan27.jpg


Meaning it won't be that major a deal for Cena. Or WWE. Why? Well because there's loads of people to pick up that slack.

randy-orton.jpg
cm_punk-2011cutout_8.png



Let me ask you thing, how pissed off would you be if the streak ended? Now compare that to how pissed you'd be if Cena turned heel. Cena's heel turn would do less to the WWE fanbase. They pour from all around the world and pay millions to see for Wrestlemania. Guess who's the yearly highlight. Let me ask, how deep is this subject of the Streak?

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=197692&highlight=undertaker

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=149589&highlight=undertaker

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=166259&highlight=undertaker


http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=214776&highlight=undertaker

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=210465&highlight=undertaker

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=196451&highlight=undertaker

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=188897&highlight=undertaker

Get some popcorn. Everyone has a different view on it. Can't say the same about Cena turning heel though. It's either he does or doesn't. Even if it comes up on forum threads mostly during Wrestlemania time, well just how does that affect the level of controversy it can generate anyway? That's right, because the subject can come up whenever you ask. That's like saying the NFL or NBA Drafts is something that only gets discussed prior to it taking place. As if you couldn't scout college talent and say "these guys could get drafted" when the actual draft is far off. It's BS. Wanna see how right I am? I decided to ask a few guys. Let's say, I liked what I saw. See via a survey I did here I got the opinions of a few other posters regarding our subjects.

Dave/Diavidus Maximus:
Who should the Undertaker face at Wrestlemania 29 and a small why?

It is clear to everyone that The Undertaker's streak at WrestleMania is not going to be beaten without good cause. One good cause would be a massive rub for a young superstar. Another would be that Taker doesn't need his streak to forge a legacy. However, I think that the only way Taker should be beaten is if someone bigger and better comes along to take it from him. Over the last few years, he has faced some of the best that the WWE has ever had to offer. Triple H and Shawn Michaels are two names that are synonymous with wrestling and more specifically, the WWE. Putting them in the ring with The Undertaker is as big as a challenge as he is ever going to face, Realistically, they are about the only two men who could put Taker down.

As far as who should face at WrestleMania 29 goes, I think it has to be John Cena. In my mind, the only person left for Taker to face is Super Cena. The man who will not quit. The man who loves his fans more than anything and will do anything but give up. I think that is the only route that the WWE can go.

Should that person win and a small why?

Are you crazy?

What would the point be in that? So that he can forge a legacy as the man who finally beat Taker at WrestleMania? So that he can get a rub off of that? So that the fans will mercilessly boo him at every single arena that he goes to? For a face, that seems like the opposite of good booking.

The Undertaker should never be beaten. He has come too far and did too much to lose this streak to anyone. A match with any of the greats of any era still wouldn't cut it. A match with Hogan in his prime still isn't deserving enough of Taker losing his streak. It is the one thing that keeps fans coming back to WrestleMania after WrestleMania and is the cornerstone of the annual event. Taking that away, for any reason, is ludicrous.

Should John Cena turn heel and a small why?

No, I don't think so.

To turn Cena heel would only be to please the fans. They already boo him and as soon as they turn him heel, then the fans will flip-flop again (Read: Randy Orton). I think the WWE has done a fantastic job by keeping Cena true to himself against the wishes of the fans. Cena is about the only guy on the roster that is continually true to himself. He is continually consistent and that;s the way it should be.

Cena hasn't really ever played a heel and he is good at playing a face. It works for him. Turning him heel would only seem forced for a guy that is so strongly aligned as a face and has been for years on end.

Harthan:
1. Very difficult to say. I feel as though they succinctly wrapped up the multi-year epic with Shawn and Triple H, and I can't see how they can continue that storyline. Neither has strong connections to any other viable talent. I think it should be something that sets the table for John Cena vs the Undertaker at WrestleMania 30. In a perfect world where Fozzy didn't exist - Chris Jericho. Cena and Jericho have a lot of history. I'd start it with Jericho trying to prove he's the best in the world, but let it get more cerebral and in depth and let the two masters ply their trade. Then you could have Jericho and Cena feud after Jericho loses, which eventually leads into Cena challenging Undertaker, catalyzed by an attempt to prove he's better than Jericho, but once again, growing more cerebral and in depth.

2. No. For reasons stated above, I'd want it to be a loss to build up the Cena match. For the record, had it been built correctly, and they could have done so easily, I would have been fine with an Undertaker loss this year. Now I just don't see it ever happening in a way I'd be okay with.

3. They lost their opportunity when he beat Lesnar and delivered that weird ass promo. Now it's just back to status quo. I want it to happen, but I don't want it to happen for no good reason. I want it to happen as the natural evolution and continuation of a brilliant storyline, which they had right in their hands before letting it slip away. Cena should, eventually, but I suppose it would be best to firmly entrench a new echelon of faces before they did it. Punk's there, Orton's there, Sheamus is getting there, and I assume Bryan will be a face in the long term. If all four of them get cemented in as faces, it'll be fine to turn Cena heel. Maybe even as part of the Undertaker storyline. It'd probably be their last chance to do it in any reasonable fashion.

Joe's Gonna Kill You:
Not sure of one guy Either Cena, Lesnar or Rock because they are Big matches

No i don't think the streak should ever end because

No because he play his current character perfectly and I'm not sure if he would even be a good heel

Deanerandterry:
Who should the Undertaker face at Wrestlemania 29 and a small why?

Brock Lesnar. Because Lesnar and Taker have legit hatred for each other (he did challenge Lesnar to fight after he lost the UFC title). Lesnar is a big money name, the match would draw, and people would think Lesnar has a legit chance at ending it considering his WWE record and his UFC history.

Should that person win and a small why?

No. Lesnar aint getting any bigger and its more viable for business to keep the streak going then for it to end. If the streak ending could help someone and make them a legitimate draw and make some serious cash for the WWE then do it. Unfortunately no one fits that bill.

Should John Cena turn heel and a small why?

Not yet at least. Cena has many profitable years left as a face. Its not time for it to happen. Hogan turning heel was smart business wise and help him from becoming obscure. Cena is no where near the end of the road as a face and draw. No need to fix what aint broken.


Pancake:

John Cena or The Rock. Two of the biggest stars in the company can face one of the biggest names of Wrestlemania.


Personally, I wouldn't want to see Undertaker lose. Taker's done too much for the business and I don't see how anyone can use that push to their best.

A Cena heel turn can be great, just not in the near future. Cena's demographic are children and pre-teens. Give it 5+ more years when his fan base would want something more from Cena, then turn him heel. If it is not broke, don't fix it.

Notice the diversity in opinions. The Rock, John Cena, Chris Jericho, Brock Lesnar. All among the names that come up to face The Undertaker. Adding to that, while most don't want the Streak to end, they know it's a viable possibility and hold their own reasons for it not to end. Whether it's being something too big for anyone to capitalize or because fans would not accept whoever would end it, there's always a totally different story. Where as you look at what they say about John Cena, and the reasons are small. Fans will cheer him or he's already booed or it's just a lousy excuse to please the haters, regardless the discussion is simple and short. After all, it's just one simple question. The Streak is a subject that has dragged 15 different carcasses to the grave and we watch yearly. It's a far touchier subject.

The Streak is just too open-minded a subject to say it's less controversial than John Cena turning heel.


Sadly, I have to leave it at that. I realize there's still a few days, but as you can see from the delays, this week landed in a rough spot due to my father visiting. It's just far too important for me to worry about the debate. I'm concluding here and if there's a next round so be it. I promise I'll bring hell if we go there.
 
With all due respect, Killjoy, it has been difficult to deconstruct your stuff over the last couple of days, because for nearly three days, you did not provide any new stuff to deconstruct. Make no mistake about it, I greatly respect the fact that you clearly have your priorities straight and have chosen to focus your time over the last few days with your father, rather than spend it debating professional wrestling with some stranger. Especially when you consider that any time you spent debating this topic over the last few days would have been an exercise in futility, as you have been fighting a losing battle, trying to argue the wrong side of the debate. Simple fact of the matter is, even though the reasons for your absence have been valid, it has left me having a one way conversation without an opposing view to deconstruct.

967c.jpg

Surely you aren't trying to suggest that the heel turn of Hulk Hogan in 1996, kickstarted at Bash At The Beach, was not one of the most significant developments in the history of modern day professional wrestling. This was the event that brought WCW from obscurity, in relative terms, and brought them head to head with the juggernaut of the WWF. It was a monumental event which lead to the Monday Night Wars, which WCW was winning for 80+ weeks, buoyed largely by the heel turn of Hulk Hogan and his involvement with the nWo. Taking a guy who was such a super face, a guy who no one ever expected would or could ever turn heel, and having him undergo a dramatic transformation from face to heel, it was enormous. And Hogan wasn't even in the prime of his career at this point and wasn't a focal point, an uber face directly tied to the company at the time. Taking Cena, in the prime of his career, from a position of front and centre in the WWE for the last several years, and turning him full blown heel, this could have equally significant ramifications for professional wrestling, specifically the WWE, for the forseeable future. Which would be a controversial development unlike few events before it.

Suggesting that a heel turn by John Cena would not be a major deal for Cena and the WWE is both uninformed and naive. It would be a huge development, and I cannot believe you would suggest otherwise. It would have half of the WWE thrilled and excited, to finally see the stale character of John Cena tinkered with and tweaked. Of course it would also have the other half absolutely devastated, seeing their hero turn his backs on them in a high profile heel turn. This division of response is the definition of controversy.

Punk and Orton would be there to "pick up the slack"? I don't even know what this even means! Punk and Orton would likely be there as two pivotal face characters to oppose the newly turned John Cena. They would not be picking up any slack, they would be the chief antagonists to the heel Cena. Every heel character needs significant opposition, as no heel turn can work without it. Punk and Orton could be two of these guys. So could these guys:

Sheamus-Shouting-with-Title-Belt.jpg


Daniel-Bryan.jpg

And ultimately:

images

A heel turn by John Cena would not require anyone to pick up any slack, but it would require the appropriate cast of characters to enhance it. And WWE cam provide that, and then some.


To answer a couple of question that you posed, frankly, I would be very pissed off to see the Undertaker's streak come to a close. It would disappoint me greatly. And I would not be pissed off whatsoever to see John Cena turn heel, in fact I would love it and I would welcome the freshness of the change. But then again, I do belong to the adult male demographic, many of whom would share my opinion. But to suggest this would do less to the WWE fan base is again incorrect and naive. Pose the same two questions to my 12 year old son. Or some kid from the Make-A-Wish Foundation. Or some random kid in attendance at Monday Night RAW. Or his mother. Or anyone amongst the huge chunk of the fan base that would never, ever want to see a heel turn by John Cena, and you'd get far different responses. In fact, pose these questions to the WWE Universe as a whole, and 50% would answer one way regarding the Cena heel turn, and the other 50% would say the opposite. And that, my friend, spells controversy.

Who's the yearly highlight at Wrestlemania? Well, who was in the main event this year, who concluded the show. It wasn't:

images

It was:

13093.jpg



No one is disputing the depth of the streak, or the fact that it could be controversial. And I do like the fact that you point out an impressive selection of threads which surround various concepts regarding the Undertaker's streak (even if several of the threads don't deal with the topic of whether or not the streak should end directly). But two can play that game:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=186829&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=183762&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=182926&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=167523&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=161470&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=159877&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=154082&highlight=Cena

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=137398&highlight=Cena

And of course:

http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=185922&highlight=Cena

We can do this all day long. Scour the archives of the Wrestlezone Forums, and you'll find numerous threads on either of the two controversial topics being discussed in this particular thread. Because both issues have their share of controversy associated with them. I'm not really sure this accomplishes too much in the grand scheme of things. Having said this, it is interesting to note that the merged thread involving the Undertaker's streak has 798 posts and 136,014 views, while the Cena merged thread has 1401 posts and 157,832 views. It would appear to me that one topic has generated more interest and sparked more discussion than the other, that being the John Cena heel turn, the more controversial topic of the two.

And that brings us to the survey you conducted involving Dave, Joe, Harthan, Pancake, and deanerandterry. Interesting idea, but meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Five guys who are highly thought of on the forums, five guys I quite like myself, being asked for their opinions. Five guys who all belong to the same demographic and as such, five guys whose opinions were exactly what I would have expected them to be. The opinions of five select guys, though, hardly holds any significance in this discussion. You can cherry pick five guys and post their opinions and make any point you wish to make. I'm sure I could conduct a similar survey and easily find five guys who would side with my side of the debate. No disrespect to either of these five guys, but it's just the opinion of five random guys. Put questions of this nature to a greater number of people and a wider sampling of the WWE Universe, and I think you get a totally different result. As I said, you can cherry pick to get any answer you want to any question. If I were to pose the question, for example, which is the better product, WWE or TNA, and the guys I chose to poll were IDR, Coco, JGKY, shattered dreams, and Zeven_Zion, I think we all know what their answer would be. And while their opinions should be respected, they'd be wrong and would be in the distinct minority in terms of the overall professional wrestling fan base.

You continue to attempt to portray the concept of the John Cena heel turn as a simple yes or no scenario. Nothing could be further from the truth. It goes far deeper than that.

John Cena should turn heel. This will allow him the ability to reconnect with the demographic he appears to have lost, the adult male population. Or will it? Will they continue to boo him anyway? Will ratings receive a boost from such a heel turn? Once the adult male demographic gets back behind him (if in fact they do), will this new fan support ultimately increase his popularity and by default result in him becoming viewed as a face all over again? Will he lose his fan base, the kids and the females? Will they continue to support him anyway, or will they abandon him in favor of the next face? How will merchandise sales be affected? Will they increase or decrease? Can a heel Cena still move a lot of product? How will his perception be affected in terms of mainstream media? Will he still be sought after by foundations such as Make-A-Wish? Will he still be a tireless ambassador for the WWE? Will he continue to make movies and if so, how will they be received? How about music? Will a heel John Cena be a totally different animal and if so, what will be the long term ramifications for him personally as well as for the WWE?

John Cena should remain face. How will the fan base respond to the continued staleness of the product? How much longer can be remain an uber face? Would the obvious benefits of merchandise sales and the maintenance of all the benefits of the status quo, all be too much for the WWE to risk losing?

Would a heel turn even work? Would fan perception and the various niche opinions remain unchanged, or would the world of professional wrestling be tipped upside down, as with Hogan. How long would the WWE be willing to roll the dice on a Cena heel turn? If such things as merchandise sales, ratings, and attendance figures started to suffer, would the WWE have the courage to stay the course, or would they panic and turn him right back again? What would be the perception from the fans if he turned, and then turned back? Would his character have been irreparably damaged, or would his niche fan base welcome him back with open arms? And who would come along as a new heel to spur the transformation of Cena back from heel to super Cena again? How would this all affect his number of title reigns and whether or not he ever surpasses Flair's record?

The questions are endless and the possible outcomes can be debated forever. It is far broader than simply a yes/no question. Unlike the issue of the end of the Undertaker's streak, which would be over and done with very shortly afterwards if the streak ever did end, the issue of John Cena's heel/face status could be a focal point of conversation and story lines for an extended period of time.

As it appears my opponent wishes to wrap things up, I'll go ahead and post my:

[size=+2]Concluding Statements[/size]​

This was a very interesting topic of debate for this round of the competition. Simply put, both questions are very controversial subjects. But at the end of the day, the notion of whether or not a John Cena heel turn should happen is far and away the more controversial subject of the two.

The issue of controversy comes down to which topic sparks the most public disagreement. John Cena is the most polarizing figure in WWE history. Never before has there been a guy who simultaneously receives such admiration and derision from the WWE fan base. Here we see a question for which one percentage of the WWE Universe would be vehemently opposed to the idea of a heel turn. The loss of a hero, the disappointment of the younger fan base, the potential negative consequences on ratings, attendance, merchandise sales, etc., all of which are the views of a chunk of the WWE fan base. Meanwhile the other percentage of the fan base is screaming for change, screaming for some freshness in the super Cena character who has been unpopular with them for ages. It is the coexistence of these divergent viewpoints which makes the concept of the John Cena heel turn so controversial.

The end of the Undertaker's undefeated streak at Wrestlemania is controversial too. But for a part time performer, well past his physical prime, involved in a storyline which occupies a third of the year at most, as opposed to the face of the company his physical prime involved in a year round storyline, the choice of which is more controversial is clear. Regarding the Undertaker's streak, most of the controversy tends to not be about should the streak end, but rather, who do you think should have a shot at it, would he be the right guy to do it, and how would you feel about it if it happened. John Cena's potential heel turn reaches far deeper, has greater long term ramifications, and is clearly the more controversial topic of the two.

At the end of the day, there will never be universal agreement about whether or not John Cena should turn heel. For every argument or wish that he transform into a heel, there's an equally plausible and passionate argument that he should remain a face for his entire career. The split is virtually right down the middle of the WWE Universe, and it is this dichotomy of belief that makes this the more controversial topic of the two proposed.

images
 
Both men have agreed to conclude this debate. Therefore, judging may begin immediately.
 
Said I'd get it done yesterday. Apologies for not. Anyway, here we go:

Clarity: My vote is for hateshabs. He broke his posts up very well, made a strong and made his argument. Killjoy barely loses this for the record.

Punctuality: hateshabs again. Killjoy disappeared for awhile in the middle leading to hateshabs posting twice in a row, illustrating why this is hid point.

Informative: I'm giving this to Killjoy. He had a great mixture and even brought in people's actual opinions to back up his points. That's genius.

Persuasion: And now the final part. My vote here goes to hateshabs because he was able to deconstruct and present at the same time. he's offered good opinions and criticised Killjoy's. Killjoy did a similarly good job, but ultimately the small break in the middle cost him.

FunKay Scores It: hateshabsforever: 4, Killjoy: 1
 
Clarity: Killjoy. This was toughest part for me to score this time around. Both had very organized posts that were fun to read. I nearly had to resort to a coin toss as it was so close, but Killjoy was a little better in this category.

Punctuality: Habs. He did not vanish in the middle of the debate.

Informative: Habs. Both guys did good here but what hurt Killjoy in my opinion was the opinions of other posters. This is about pushing what HE is arguing. Other posters' opinions are one of the very few sources I disagree with bringing to the table.

Persuasion: Habs. He came in with a strong case each opportunity he had, even when Killjoy went absent. His argument was stronger, winning him the two persuasion points.

I scored it as: Habs 4, Killjoy 1.
 
Clarity - I liked both. I'm going with Habs though. Just worked a little more for me.

Point - hatehabsforever

Punctuality - What ^ they said.

Point - hatehabsforever

Informative - I liked what Killjoy brought to the table just a wee bit better than Habs. Just a wee bit.

Point - The Killjoy

Persuasion - Great points were made on both sides. Went with Habs. His presentation of everything, going after points while bringing in newer stuff. Worked well for him.

Points - hatehabsforever

CH David scores this hatehabsforever 4, The Killjoy 1.
 
It looks like we're going to have a sudden death championship. Very cool.

Good job to both guys but since Killjoy can't catch up, hatehabsforever takes this round.
 
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