FINAL Debater's League Championship Match: hatehabsforever -vs- The Killjoy

Discussion in 'Debater's League 2012' started by D-Man, Jun 4, 2012.

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  1. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    Congratulations to hatehabsforever for forcing a tie-breaking FINAL debate. Now, for the debate to end this year's tournament:

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The FINAL topic for this year's Debate League is...

    Do dirt sheets and insider websites (such as Wrestlezone) enhance or ruin professional wrestling?

    The Killjoy won the coin toss and will be the home debater. He's earned the right to choose EITHER which side of the debate he wants to argue OR who provides the opening statement. He can also defer this choice to his opponent. (The home debater has 24 hours to make this decision otherwise it is automatically deferred to his opponent.)

    After these choices are made, the first post of the debate must be posted within the first 24 hours otherwise it will affect the starter's Punctuality portion of the judging. Debaters have 24 hours to respond to their opponent's post and the faster the response, the better chance you have to score higher point totals. If a debater is late with their post, their opponent can post again and continue posting every 24 hours until they receive a reply. More posts equal a better chance of gaining the Persuasive points in the debate.

    There is no maximum amount of posts for debaters in this round. Debaters can create unlimited replies until the allotted time of the debate runs out.

    This thread is for DEBATERS ONLY and will end on Sunday, June 10th at 12pm EST (unless the debaters agree to end early.) Judging will begin immediately after the close of the debate.

    Anyone that posts in this thread besides the debaters, league admins, and judges will be infracted!

    The winner of this match will be the 2012 Debater's League CHAMPION!!!

    Good luck to the participants!!!
     
    #1
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  2. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Hello. Welcome to history. Today I take the first step into victory. Where I belong. I choose to debate that Wrestlezone.com and all other Dirt Sheet websites and Insider sources are nothing but pure detriment to pro wrestling and it's fanbase. I hand good luck to hatehabsforever. Because when the heaven clouds crack, beams of light filled with knowledge will emerge from my eyeballs and flames of furious intent will shoot out of my ass, he will be scorched and blinded by my awesomeness. Choose who goes first and let the final battle begin.
     
    #2
  3. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    [size=+2]Introduction[/size]​

    Well, here we are, and we have finally reached the actual finals of the Wrestlezone Debater's League. And I can honestly say that I am really glad that my opponent is someone who I like and respect as much as The Killjoy. While I cannot promise beams of light from my eyeballs or flames shooting out of my ass as he did, I can promise that I will bring my A-game and I anticipate a hard fought and respectful debate, one which should be a lot of fun. Of course, I will argue that wrestling websites such as this one, wrestling "dirt sheets", etc., do not ruin the enjoyment of the product, in fact they serve to enhance it. I wish you all the best of luck in this final debate, Killjoy, now let's get it on!

    [size=+2]Knowledge Is A Wonderful Thing[/size]​

    Professional wrestling can be an interesting and fun pasttime. Discussing and debating it can be a lot of fun, as we have found out over the past few months of this Debater's League, and simply watching it can be enjoyable as well. But the enjoyment of any particular event or point of interest is enhanced by being knowledgeable and well informed about it. It is one thing to simply sit back and enjoy something for pure enjoyment sake, but it's something different and in fact better to be knowledgeable about it, which enhances the ultimate enjoyment of it.

    [​IMG]

    Take the NHL, for example, and specifically my beloved Boston Bruins. Last season, one could have watched them march toward the ultimate prize of a Stanley Cup victory, and one would easily derive tremendous enjoyment from it. The quality and excitement of NHL hockey played at the ultimate level for the ultimate prize. The fast paced and physical nature of the action. The drama of the seven game series, and the intestinal fortitude required to win it all. All of this would easily appeal to even the most casual fan, who could enjoy it at simple face value. But for the more informed and knowledgeable hockey fan, who knew about the Original Six, the extensive Stanley Cup drought for the Bruins, their history of disappointment, etc., the Boston Bruins Stanley Cup drive of last season was that much more enjoyable. Knowledge is a wonderful thing, and bringing a greater degree of information to the game made it all that much more enjoyable and rewarding.

    [​IMG]

    If sports isn't your thing, let's look at the world of entertainment from a different perspective. Here we see a summer blockbuster (which I haven't seen yet :( ) which one could attend and enjoy simply for the imagery and theatrics at face value. But for those who have seen previous movies involving these characters, or are familiar with them from comic books, or whatever, a movie like The Avengers becomes that much more enjoyable. Knowledge is a wonderful thing, and by bringing a greater degree of knowledge and information to the experience, the whole experience becomes further enhanced. And professional wrestling is really no different from sports or movies in this regard.

    [​IMG]

    Long gone are the days whereby professional wrestling was merely a showcase of technical mastery and grappling maneuvers. No longer is in ring action enough to satisfy the modern day professional wrestling fan. Today, like it or not, professional wrestling is all about the integration of in ring activity with the storyline aspect of the business. Most fans no longer want to see Lou Thesz-like action devoid of drama and storytelling. Most fans want quality in ring action, but it plays second fiddle to the drama, the storyline, the theatrics of "sports entertainment".

    Internet wrestling sites, dirt sheets, call them what you will, but these sites provide a plethora of knowledge to an entire subsection of the professional wrestling fan base, the Internet wrestling community, or IWC. As such, the modern day professional wrestling fan is far more informed about the product than they used to be. As a member of this IWC, I consider myself a far more informed fan than, for example, my friends from years ago used to be. I used to think my friends, who watched (back before I did) were so knowledgeable about the business. They weren't. Nowadays, due to sites like this one, we all are so much more informed about matters pertaining to the pro wrestling business. And this has not ruined the enjoyment of professional wrestling for me, or for so many others like me. Quite the opposite, it has enhanced the enjoyment of it all, as evidenced by the very existence of this Wrestlezone Debater's League.

    Without sites such as this one, I would not know what the hell ROH was. I had never heard of it. I had never seen it (and still haven't).

    [​IMG]

    Here we have the stereotypical "Internet darling". Without the existence of insider wrestling websites, I would have no idea who Bryan Danielson even was. Hadn't heard of him, never saw him. Because of such wrestling sites, I came to understand that this guy was a potentially big deal, and I gave him more of an opportunity and cut him more slack than I would have if some anonymous dude named Daniel Bryan came along out of nowhere. The dirt sheets, the wrestling sites, they made me a more knowledgeable pro wrestling fan, and have enhanced my enjoyment of the product because of it. Daniel Bryan is one of many examples whereby my appreciation of the product has been improved by the greater knowledge afforded by wrestling sites on the Internet.

    [size=+2]Amalgamation[/size]​

    One of the key components in the genre of professional wrestling today is the blending of the worlds of reality and kayfabe. What is purely a storyline occurrence, versus what is steeped in reality and based a little bit more on true life. And the existence of the Internet wrestling sites only serve to further muddy the waters between what is real and what is kayfabe.


    Let's think back to Money In The Bank last summer. An epic confrontation between CM Punk and John Cena. This match had all the makings of a classic all by itself. But thanks to the Internet wrestling sites, the stakes got dramatically higher. Because the world learned, thanks to such sites, that Punk's real life contract with WWE was set to expire. What impact would this have on the match? Was Punk's contract really going to expire? Had Punk and the WWE reached a last minute agreement behind closed doors? The questions were endless, and the drama and intrigue of it all was unprecedented. And this drama was all largely due to the very existence of the dirt sheets. The Internet sites did not ruin the feud between Punk and Cena, nor did they spoil the product in and around this PPV. Quite the opposite, the blending of reality and kayfabe made the feud to a large degree. These websites didn't ruin things, they enhanced them.


    All fat jokes aside, but who can forget the heated battle between Edge and Matt Hardy as the ultimate amalgamation of real life and make believe played out on WWE programming. Thanks largely to the real life scenario of this love triangle, largely reported and brought to the forefront due to the wrestling websites, WWE once again blurred the lines between reality and kayfabe. In doing so, they orchestrated an excellent on screen feud which exploited the real life tensions amongst the three. Once again, the dirt sheets did not ruin the product; they enhanced it. They brought passion and emotion to the equation. Wrestlezone and other such sites ruined nothing. They enhanced the on screen product by bringing behind the scenes to the forefront.

    [​IMG]

    Yet another example of a WWE superstar whose career has in the past, and will continue to be, enhanced by the dirt sheet portrayals of him. The in ring career of Triple H, which is in the process of evolving into the authority figure of Triple H the figurehead, has always been largely affected by his portrayal, correctly or incorrectly, by the Internet sites. Read through these dirt sheets and the opinions expressed therein. Triple H only reached his position in the company because he married the boss's daughter. He's a power hungry SOB who refused to put anyone over. His prickish nature behind he scenes has stalled many a push and virtually ended many a career. Yet very little of this plays out on screen. The Internet dirt sheets have largely contributed to the aura of the Cerebral Assassin. They have enhanced the product because they have enhanced the career of this man. In the recent debate between myself and Stormtrooper, I proposed that this man would eventually supersede Vince McMahon as an authority figure in the WWE in a historical sense. For this to happen, the information, correct and otherwise, which the wrestling sites churn out about the man, will be essential. As Triple H the figurehead evolves into the greatest heel authority figure in WWE history, the Internet wrestling sites will enhance all of this. They will not cause the ruin of Triple H, nor will they ruin the product for any of us along the way. They will enhance it all.

    It could even be argued that the career of this man, regarding the historical significance of "the streak", has been enhanced by the wrestling dirt sheets.

    [​IMG]

    Would "the streak" hold the same significance today if it weren't so highly discussed and revered by the IWC? Hard to say. It could be argued, though, that while the streak has received lots of attention over the last five years or so, it received virtually no on screen attention prior to this. The streak has become an entity in and of itself, buoyed largely by the IWC. The Internet wrestling sites have enhanced the aura of the streak, and by default the Undertaker, rather than ruin it in any way, shape or form.


    [size=+2]Surprise Versus Hype[/size]​

    One thing that critics of the dirt sheets will ultimately discuss is the fact that the very existence of these sites, and the associated spoilers, make it virtually impossible to truly produce a complete surprise to the audience anymore. A return from injury, a new signing, a debut, a returning superstar, whatever, none of which can be easily hid from the fans anymore and as such, the lack of shock value has hurt the product. And sure, there may be some validity to this point. But let's face it, it's a new era. The Attitude Era is no more . Vince Russo is not employed by either of the two major pro wrestling companies anymore. Senseless swerves, or shock value for the sake of shock value, has pretty much become passé these days. Look at the effect of surprise, as opposed to the hype which can be generated without it.

    In 2011, we saw the long awaited return of the most electrifying man in sports entertainment.


    Of course, everyone and their dog knew about this return. The dirt sheets "spoiled" it. Or did they? Listen to the pop from the crowd in attendance. Look at the reaction this produced that night on these forums. Was this a question of a lack of surprise, which was ruined by the dirt sheets? Or was it more accurately a case whereby the dirt sheets enhanced the reaction and the eventual product, by building hype and hoopla around it and thereby generating a more successful return? I would respectfully suggest the latter.

    How about this?


    Again, was this huge return "spoiled" by the dirt sheets? Or was it enhanced by them, and the anticipation of the fans, both in attendance and on TV, which was greatly increased because of the manner in which the dirt sheets discussed the return in advance? Again, I would suggest the latter. And this continues with this man. The dirt sheets continue to report that Lesnar is pissed off about his contract, that he got the shaft from Triple H, that he met with Dana White after a recent UFC event, fueling speculation of a UFC return. The wrestling websites are clearly enhancing the product, not detracting from it.

    [size=+2]Misinformation[/size]​

    But boo freaking hoo, the dirt sheets are constantly spoiling things, thus ruining the product. Or are they? How about the way the wrestling websites and forums discussed the arrival of "they" in TNA at Bound For Glory? Lots of hype and hoopla about who "they" were, reported on the sites and discussed amongst the fans. In the end, was anything spoiled? Not a damn thing. Just selective leaking of misinformation, just enough to keep the wrestling fan base on its collective toes and keep them guessing. Because just when you think the dirt sheets are spoiling something, you have to wonder, are they really? And this uncertainty can actually be used to enhance the product, rather than detract from it.

    [size=+2]New Guys[/size]​

    So it is suggested by some that the wrestling sites are spoiling things and ruining things for everyone. I wonder if this guy would agree:

    [​IMG]

    Of course, a lot of this guy's success has to be attributable to YouTube. But nevertheless, the IWC's fascination with this guy, who became an Internet darling in his own regard, was largely responsible for bringing this low card nobody, on the brink of future endeavors, to regular appearances on RAW, on PPV's, and even resulted in a short United States Championship reign. I would suggest that the wrestling websites have not ruined anything for Mr. Ryder, or his fans. Quite the opposite in fact.

    [size=+2]Social Media[/size]​

    Like it or not, but nowadays, Facebook, Twitter, and various other forms of social media have become mainstays of the professional wrestling product. This is overtly evident in both WWE and TNA and this likely isn't going away soon. As this trend continues, wrestling forums and websites are likely going to become an ever increasing aspect of the product. There is no reason to suggest that the dirt sheets cannot work in conjunction with social media to bring the product to the masses over their computers and laptops. I'm sure that the dirt sheets will continue to be blurred into the realm of the social media networks and as such, can be used to further enhance the product, rather than ruin it.

    Oh, and for the record, I fully expect to see it on Sunday afternoon.

    @hatehabsforever , winner of the Wrestlezone 2012 Debater's League, trending worldwide.

    [size=+2]Options[/size]​

    On the off chance that you remain unconvinced, there are options you know. If you truly feel that the existence of these Internet wrestling dirt sheets are ruining professional wrestling today, let me offer you this nugget of information:

    If you don't want to view spoilers, no one is putting a gun to your head. No one is forcing you to read them. Hell, no one forced you to even click these spoiler tags to read this message. Some people are impatient and enjoy reading spoilers. That's their prerogative. Others dislike spoilers. If you feel spoilers are ruining the product for you, simply don't view them.

    And of course, there's also this option:

    User CP Forum Jump FAQ Members List Calendar New Posts Search Quick Links Log Out
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    We all see this every time we voluntarily come onto the Wrestlezone forums. See the part shaded in blue? It's called "logout". If the product is being spoiled for you by coming onto the site, simply use this button and elect to not return. That way, your experience with the professional wrestling product need not be spoiled, while those who choose to come on here and enjoy this perspective of pro wrestling are free to do so. Problem solved.

    I now await with baited breath the opening statements from The Killjoy. Please be warned of supposed beams of light and flames of awesomeness. Although frankly, after months of debating, I've yet to see any of this produced by my esteemed opponent.
     
    #3
  4. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Dirtsheets: What They Do/Their Facade



    Habsy, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
    [​IMG]
    Guess not.

    First things first. Dirtsheets. What are they? http://forums.wrestlezone.com?

    No, no, no, no. A dirtsheet site. Not a forum. That's where people discuss the information we can all see. We're discussing the source of the majority of this information. http://www.wrestlezone.com/

    There's one. I think D-Man kindly mentioned it. I highly doubt Twitter, Facebook or the forums are dirtsheets. Even though WrestleZone seems to adore plugging wrestler's Twitter handles. See, Habsy is talking about something totally different. The IWC: the fanbase of wrestling fans with web access. Those are a dime a dozen. They are not dirt sheet reporters or insiders. I certainly am not one, neither is Habsy, or D-Man, or even KB. Dave Meltzer on the other hand, or Justin LaBar, Or Nick Paglino (who still fears Ricky) are. See, they make it their job to post news about wrestling and it's happening backstage. Sometimes they are so efficient in their work, they'll spew anything out for hits. Regardless of the level of obscurity or obviousness to it. Sometimes, the news is so ridiculous and obviously done for hits, it gets ribbed for it. You get gems running around the forums (which are not dirtsheets) like these:

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=165970

    http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=214300


    The biggest story on the market right now revolves around Randy Orton's second violation of the WWE Wellness Policy and subsequent suspension. Rumors are circulating all around about how he "may head to TNA" or "WWE is sending him down the midcard". Out of that, the dirtsheets give us this great "insight":

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255769-update-more-on-randy-ortons-future-with-wwe-

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255747-report-qhostileq-meeting-between-randy-orton-a-wwe-officials

    Let me ask. Where's the certainty? Where's the confirmation? These are 2 of many links "detailing" this case but the only real piece of information we've gotten is that Orton smokes weed and swallowed steroids before taking the piss on the cup. The same thing can be said about Ric Flair:

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255699-flair-spotted-near-raw-site-fcw-stars-at-wwe-tv-tapings

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255729-exclusive-possible-wwe-creative-plans-discussed-for-ric-flairhttp://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255729-exclusive-possible-wwe-creative-plans-discussed-for-ric-flair

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255815-hbk-speaks-to-fcw-talent-ric-flair-not-at-raw-last-night


    Check these links in order. Notice the "possibly's" and the "maybe's" and then "whoops, it didn't happen. Nevermind." The dirtsheets exist for the sole purpose of reaping off the internet fan's. Mascaraing whatever they see and turning it into "news". You can see it above. Randy Orton was suspended. Now all these stories about "hostile meetings" and "possible termination" show up with no real meat to them. It's information you can really without. Same as Flair. Or this:
    He couldn't even be bothered with spelling "compared" right on his "column". What's that, like 2 other links plugged? Hits, baby. It's what they are all about. I mean, really. What's the news here? Ryback is squashing people? Seriously, IS THERE ANYTHING IN THIS REPORT THAT WE DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW? We see it every week. So we get this "insider report" saying... "He's being pushed, the boss likes him". Well no, shit. I could've figured it out myself after 2 months of it going on continuously.

    And that my friends, is the Facade Of The Dirtsheet. A mixture of circumstance, logic, chance and imagination all mixed into links we click into that go into the pockets of these men. They are nothing but poison to the wrestling fanbase. They reap our suspense of disbelief. There are far more negative features than positive ones to them, and their "news" is the primary one.

    Yes. Great and wonderful thing it is. But when it's mostly made up or just information you knew already paraded as new, recycled constantly with a new "report" all to get more hits on a site, you start to wonder, just what the hell is the point of clicking those links on the top of this very page.

    I don't know what's sadder? The fact that you haven't seen The Avengers? Or the fact that you're still aiming at the wrong target? First off, reading the comics wouldn't really do much other than let you know who's coming in the sequel since, gee, I don't know, the movie franchise is loosely based. But more to the real point, discussing the movie's plot is not comparable to the dirtsheets of wrestling fame. The film production changing from Paramount to Disney on the hand is. Christian Bale, AKA Batman having throwing a temper tantrum on a movie set is. Robert Downey Jr. or Mickey Rourke ending up relapsing on alcoholism on the set of Iron Man 2 (just an example) would be. Iron Patriot being revealed as the villain of Iron Man 3 is. Habsy, dirtsheets report news. Not discuss the medium. That's the fanbase and the forums. Which would be us.

    Dirtsheets did not build up Daniel Bryan. Hell, they were just as clueless as we were about his dismissal from the WWE back in 2010 as we were. The only thing the dirtsheets ever did for Daniel Bryan was to let us know he was fired (which WWE.com did first) and that he was re-hired (which funny enough, WWE.com also did first).

    I'll leave it there since EVERYTHING you posted is discussing the wrong thing.
     
    #4
  5. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Make no mistake about it, Killjoy, we are most definitely discussing the same topic. You have just chosen to focus your discussion on a far narrower scope of the entire matter, cherry picking the aspects of the topic which appear to better suit the restricted range of your viewpoint, while attempting to overlook the overall topic in it's entirety. It is actually an admirable attempt on your part. Focus upon the aspect of the discussion which falls neatly into your limited viewpoint, and hope that the judges share the limited nature of your discussion. Sweep the rest of the topic under the rug and hope that no one notices. Cloud the issue by putting words in my mouth which I didn't say. And finally, employ your terrific use of graphics (great job by the way) to put a nice red bow on the discussion, while being dismissive of the aspects of the discussion which don't fit nicely into your package. Thankfully, the judges are neither naive nor shortsighted enough to fall into your trap.

    Thank you for the quick tutorial about the differences between dirt sheets, forums, social media websites, and insider reporting. But as I read the topic, it refers to the dirt sheets as well as the websites such as Wrestlezone. And sites such as Wrestlezone have a far greater scope and are far more comprehensive than you inaccurately suggest. You cannot focus solely upon the dirt sheet reporting which turns out to be inaccurate and in fact misleading. Because these websites also contain plenty of information which turns out to be accurate, which ends up correlating well with the development of story lines. And they contain forums whereby a lot of discussion transpires, discussion which shapes the knowledge of the wrestling fan base, positively and negatively. You can try to omit this from your discussion if you like. I can't blame you because it doesn't serve your perspective well. But as I read it, the question at hand in this topic relates to how all aspects of the various wrestling websites affect the perception of he overall wrestling product, ie, does it enhance it, or ruin it.

    I read an interesting article after viewing your post. Here it is:

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/406954-dirt-sheets-love-them-or-loathe-them

    I found it interesting to note that they make reference to different types of "dirt sheets". And some of the ones they refer to are certainly viewed more favorably than the ones that you expound upon in your post. In fact, they list such sites as WWE.com as dirt sheets. You know, the types of websites which serve to "enhance and extend story lines and feuds". I didn't see you make any reference to dirt sheets of this type in your sweeping criticisms of dirt sheets and my perception of them.

    Sure, they also make reference to other types of dirt sheets, the ones which you cite as being harmful and detrimental. The topic and hand, though, didn't discriminate between types of dirt sheets, but rather mentioned dirt sheets in general. And even with the less than stellar ones, I think there is still merit in them to some degree, as I'll get into in a moment.

    For the sake of discussion, I'll play your game at look at the extremely limited scope of the entire discussion. In this regard, let's consider this viper:

    [​IMG]

    If we only consider the snippets of reporting that you cherry picked to suit your cause, what have we learned? That Randy Orton has a Wellness Policy violation and as such will be suspended for 60 days (and possibly more) due to the use of steroids and marijuana. I doubt that Michael Cole or Jerry Lawler are going to broadcast this point during an episode of RAW, even though it is apparently a matter of public record. So when Orton vanishes from WWE programming for at least two months, the fans on TV or in attendance at shows know why. Information has been provided, and knowledge is never a bad thing. The "dirt sheets" have provided some accurate information in a timely fashion.

    Over and above this, they have sensationalized things a little, taking some creative liberties with some of the facts, at least potentially, yet I fail to see how this is a bad thing. I conceded in my opening post that over and above the information provided on various websites, there is a load of misinformation provided as well. This keeps the fans guessing, keeps them on their toes. Not only this, but it provides fodder for future story lines, something which I feel at times is due to a purposeful leak of information (or misinformation) to fuel future story lines. While this style of reporting may annoy you, Killjoy, I fail to see how this ruins the professional wrestling product, which is the question at hand. At worst, it results in the spewing of misinformation which does no harm whatsoever except attract attention and direct traffic onto their website. At best, it provides some accurate information as well as some potential storyline information for future potential use.

    Continuing down your restricted road, let's look the Nature Boy:

    [​IMG]

    Again, what have we learned? Ric Flair is apparently no longer affiliated with TNA Wrestling. Once again, we have been provided with a source of information which explains his sudden abrupt departure from TNA, something which I'm sure won't be discussed on an episode of iMPACT. He could be headed back to WWE in some capacity. Then once again, the sensationalism returns as potential scenarios are proposed. Has any harm been done? No. Has a future storyline possibly been teased or has the waters been tested a little? You bet, so what's the problem?

    And this all involves simply your restricted viewing, which I feel is far more restrictive than the topic at hand as proposed by D-Man. Because this type of dirt sheet reporting does, as discussed, provide some accurate information to increase the knowledge of it's fan base. It puts some other information out there as well, some accurate and some not so much, but at the end of the day, generates interest and discussion. I think you are far too quick to discount forums and the like from our discussion, as the forums are a subsection of the Wrestlezone website.

    The topic which D-Man chose for us in these finals was to assess the effect of dirt sheets and websites such as Wrestlezone, to determine if they enhance or ruin professional wrestling nowadays. You have gone to great lengths to be very critical of the more sensational and sometimes less accurate ones. There is some validity to some of the points you make there. Yet I still fail to see how such venues "ruin" professional wrestling. Even if they are the worst of the worst in terms of accuracy, what real harm is done? The more discriminating reader takes them worth a grain of salt and moves on. No harm done.

    [​IMG]

    I think you are too quick to discount the significance of the other more reputable wrestling websites. Some of them contain a lot of valuable information, leading to a greater understanding of the product. Over and above this, they generate a lot of traffic, and therefore a lot of discussion, which has to be seen as a good thing. So even on a site like Wrestlezone, you may have guys like Nick Paglino who report information to the wrestling fan base. Some of this information does turn out to be accurate and informative, a point which you neglect to concede. You only focus on the misinformation, which I conceded in my opening post. But even with the misinformation he may provide in breaking headlines on Wrestlezone, he generates the traffic on here. Even though he may have selfish personal goals in doing so, the end result is still the same. He gets you onto the website, and once here, you stay and you look around. Happened to me over five years ago. And I'm still here, learning new information everyday about professional wrestling and enhancing my enjoyment of it. Sure, the headlines may have lured me here under somewhat false pretenses. But the headlines have done no harm. And the information I have attained while here, even including on the forums which you are far too quick to discount, has to be seen as a positive thing, Which for me has enhanced my overall enjoyment of the product.

    You make specific reference to SuperLuchas.net and their discussion of this guy:

    [​IMG]

    I'm not really sure what the problem here is. Sure, it somewhat states the obvious, and it remains to be seen how accurate it will all play out in the end. But at the end of the day, no harm has been done. Potential interest has been generated in the Ryback character. And it will likely lead to discussion regarding the guy: who he is, where he came from, what people's opinion of him is, etc., As I see it, absolutely no harm whatsoever has been done by SuperLuchas.net here, yet there is the distinct upside of putting out feelers regarding his future, as well as making him a topic of discussion amongst the pro wrestling fan base. I'm not really seeing how this poses "ruin" for today's product.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Let's be clear here. I'm quite aware of the differences between social media outlets and dirt sheets or wrestling websites. I was simply making the point that these social media outlets appear to be a fixture in pro wrestling which are likely here to stay. And wrestling websites and certain dirt sheets, for all of the reasons previously stated, can be integrated in with these outlets to continue to further enhance he overall product and the enjoyment of it, that's all I'm saying.

    When push comes to shove, the fact of the matter is, wrestling websites and dirt sheets are not perfect and I never claimed that they were. However, they certainly do not spell the ruin of modern day professional wrestling. In many of the manners discussed above, they can and have actually enhanced the product for the greater enjoyment of the professional wrestling fan base.
     
    #5
  6. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    You talk about being open and discussing the wider aspect, but what the hell have you really covered? Have you discussed the news reportings? No. Have you discussed company websites? No. Have you discussed the division between truth and fiction in these stories? No. You instead talk about Facebook, Twitter and the forums. It's the wrong aspect. No matter how you spin it.

    The Very Source Hates Them




    Funny. Proving??? You're still wrong. You talked in the first post about social media and people talking about it. Now you twist it into you're "being open". WWE.com and impactwrestling.com aren't dirt sheets due to... I don't know... being produced by the proper company. They used to be called dirt sheets because they were non-affiliated magazines designed to exploit and work off pro wrestlers. Were else did such a cutesy name come from?

    Sensationalism used to take advantage of the energetic wrestling fan's desire to learn as much as possible. WWE.com releases the information of Randy Orton's suspension. The dirt sheets spun it in every way possible to get hits. Maybe you enjoy clicking a link reading "Report" or "Update" just to read the same damn thing you already knew, but others can see through the veil.



    Notice the latter part of the interview. There's the "so called experts with the cure to our ailment" and there's "the fans that enjoy talking about or product". It's the difference between the dirt sheets, that deteriorate our fanbase by basically being false prophets. How bad does this have to be that The Undertaker, one of the most respected figures ever, hates it? Thinks it drives younger guys in the wrong direction. Exploits the fanbase. These words are coming out of a wrestler. You know, the source of the product.

    Temptation Is A Dangerous Mistress

    The dirt sheets are the main source of spoilers for TV shows. Listing in varying detail what happens at taped shows. Smackdown and Impact have been tormented by this for years. You can see them everywhere. People who first check spoilers and skip over shows depending on what they read. Yeah, argue all you want that "it's your choice". Who gives a damn? The fact you're giving them a choice is problem enough. Would TNA need to actually confiscate cellphones during TV tapings if it weren't for potential spoilers? Would they even need to go live this summer if it wasn't for these spoilers? It affects ratings as well as viewership of the product. People go in to watching some shows with negative expectations. That kills the buzz fans have. Remember when James Storm and Bobby Roode won the TNA World Championship last fall? The whiplash before the shows even aired? That does affect the product.
     
    #6
  7. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    First of all, let's deal with this matter of Facebook and Twitter and other social media outlets that you seem to really have focused on in my first two posts. Because you seem to be giving them far more attention than I feel they deserve, as they are a very small and insignificant component to my overall argument. I can only assume that you have chosen to focus on this aspect of things because you are at somewhat of a loss to deal with some of my other more significant points. No reference at all to most of my points, yet repeated attacks at this one minute part of my debate.

    All I am simply saying is that in the modern day world of professional wrestling, the various forms of the Internet are commonly utilized to work the audience and to advance story lines. And social media outlets are two manners in which pro wrestling has chosen to pursue this approach. While I realize they have absolutely nothing directly to do with dirt sheets or professional wrestling websites such as Wrestlezone, they are vehicles used for character development and fan enticement and the dirt sheets essentially accomplish the same thing. Because make no mistake about it, the dirt sheets are full of information and misinformation which is deliberately leaked to these websites, as part of storyline progression. Let's not be naive enough to think that WWE and TNA are simple pawns in the game of the dirt sheets. The dirt sheets are often a tool to be utilized by them, rather than exploited by them. Hopefully, that's the end of that.

    As well, let's put one other thing to rest, and that's our divergent viewpoints of the question at hand. You seem to feel that the only thing to be discussed is the dirt sheets and their inaccurate portrayal of information. I see the question posed as being much broader. Sure, the less reputable dirt sheets are part of the discussion. But the conversation also includes the dirt sheets known as WWE.com and impactwrestling.com. You suggest they are not actual dirt sheets, yet the article you yourself quote refers to them as such. These two sites are full of information and lend themselves to much discussion and analysis, which in turn generates interest and ultimately enhances the product. It includes the "less reputable" dirt sheets, which are sometimes accurate, sometimes not, but either way, stimulate interest and discussion, enhancing then product in the process. And I feel that the discussions generated by the various forums contained within the various wrestling websites cannot be excluded from the discussion either, as they are an integral part of the sites and are a big part of the enhancement of the product. The topic at hand involves dirt sheets and professional wrestling websites, not just the selective dirt sheets that you choose to cherry pick to attempt to drive your point home.

    Now that's out of the way, let's dig a little deeper.

    You wanted me to discuss the news reporting in detail. Frankly, I looked through several dirt sheets today, and I saw nothing out of sorts which warranted criticism of the nature you levied. I saw combinations of accurate reporting of news, coupled with speculation and opinion, all of which would drive discussion and enhance the product. I certainly saw nothing which threatened to ruin professional wrestling.

    [​IMG]

    I referenced these guys in an earlier post, yet you chose to ignore it, I assume because it didn't fit neatly into your criticism of the dirt sheets. Fact of the matter is, this was an awesome feud which was vastly improved by the reporting on wrestling sites. The dirt sheets reported at length about the expiration of Punk's WWE contract, and this threw gasoline on the fire of this feud. On a daily basis, we were inundated with information concerning Punk and what would or could happen if he won the title while not under contract. Realistically, we'll never know how much of the information contained in the dirt sheets was accurate, or how much was absolute horseshit, but ultimately it doesn't really matter. The reporting during this program did not ruin the feud, it definitely enhanced it, and made it, arguably, the feud of the year.

    [​IMG]

    Here's another feud which was enhanced by the dirt sheets. There was a plethora of reporting which suggested that Jericho had crossed the line in his personal attacks of Punk's family, and the dirt sheets suggested that Punk was legitimately upset by it, thus fueling the feud. Again, there's no way of knowing how accurate this reporting was, and in fact I would suggest that it probably wasn't accurate at all, that this was a pure kayfabe scenario which Punk was totally on board with. However, the websites would suggest otherwise, and it was the blending of kayfabe and reality in these dirt sheet accounts that enhanced the feud. Again, the dirt sheets certainly did not ruin things, in fact it was quite the opposite.

    [​IMG]

    I touched on this earlier, but again, you chose to ignore it in lieu of another tirade about Facebook and twitter. The professional wrestling websites reported heavily upon the return of the Rock to the squared circle in 2011. Some would say this should have been a surprise, and that the WWE missed an opportunity to orchestrate an epic surprise return due to spoilage by the dirt sheets. I disagree. I think the WWE leaked this information, and wanted the sites to "spoil" it, choosing to gamble on the effect of hype over the appeal of the surprise. Once the Rock returned, his activity was closely monitored over a year, culminating with the match with Cena at WM. Did the dirt sheets ruin any aspect of the Rock and his long awaited return, hell no. They enhanced the effectiveness of the return. Same goes for the return of this beast:

    [​IMG]

    And the dirt sheets continue to spout off about him. And as they continue to do so, they will only further enhance the return of Lesnar. Hell, even today, there's talk in the Wrestling Observer Newsletter of "nuclear backstage heat" involving Brock Lesnar. Now I don't think anyone is naive enough to actually believe that. I think we all grasp the concept of kayfabe. But how does reporting this in the dirt sheets hurt anything or anyone? It builds his heel persona. It blends reality and kayfabe. I don't see the problem. Enhancement, not ruin.

    You try to get mileage out of the dirt sheet reporting of this man:

    [​IMG]

    But tell me, what exactly did the dirt sheets do that was so bad? Remember, you said that the dirt sheets and wrestling websites are ruining professional wrestling. The dirt sheets reported that Orton had a "hostile meeting" with WWE officials. No way to know if that's true or not, but that's certainly plausible considering his transgression and his stature in the company, and his history. Then they branch off in a more speculative fashion. Some guys want him to be released. Some want to relegate him back to the mid card. Some want to keep him in suspended animation after his 60 day suspension is up. Heck, even TNA was postulated. Is this reporting iron clad accurate? We'll never know, but who cares? It is all plausible information which is either accurate, or is being put out there as part of the progression of a later story line. Either way, I don't see how any harm has been done. Sure, it may be annoying. It may frustrate you, Killjoy. But I cannot imagine how such reporting can be viewed as "ruining" the professional wrestling product. At worst, it's irresponsible reporting by people with an agenda. At best, it's generating interest, advancing story lines, and when all is said and done, enhancing the overall product.

    Same goes for the Nature Boy. Woooo!

    The dirt sheet reports suggest he is gone from TNA and may be on his way back to WWE with a Legends contract. They speculate he may end up in a managerial role with Dolph Ziggler. Is this all accurate, who knows, but does it even matter? The dirt sheets have the fans interested in him again, and he's back in the public eye and is the focal point of discussions again. How is that a bad thing? And how does this spell ruin for the professional wrestling product of today?

    Just today, the websites were offering reports regarding this young lady:

    [​IMG]

    She is supposedly taking a break from the WWE, and suggestions are that she may not be coming back. This is at least somewhat factually accurate in that she will be absent for a while. Whether or not she returns is purely speculative. But either way, reporting of this by the dirt sheets has put Kelly Kelly back in the public eye, and will spawn lots of discussion. Is she coming back? Should she? Will she be missed if she doesn't? How would you rate her WWE career if in fact it is over? Etc etc etc. Once again, dirt sheet reporting has occurred which may or may not be accurate. But once again, it is a positive thing, not a negative.

    Don't be too quick to assume that all dirt sheet reporting is inaccurate. The dirt sheets spoiled the Royal Rumble returns of Booker T and Kevin Nash last year. And they were completely accurate. Were these spoilers a good thing? More on this later.

    Don't be too quick to assume that all mainstream conventional media reporting is accurate. Remember this?


    Speculation ran wild a little over a year ago that these series of vignettes were teasing a debut of the Icon Sting in the WWE. Sure, maybe the dirt sheets reported it, discussed it, and fueled false hopes and anticipations of this occurring. But the New York Daily News reported that Steve Borden, a.k.a Sting, had signed a contact with WWE. I don't consider the New York Daily News a rag or a dirt sheet, yet they got it wrong. So just because something is in a dirt sheet, doesn't automatically make it wrong. And just because it is from a more "reputable" source, doesn't always make it right. Honest mistakes and errors happen. Remember this the next time you're criticizing the reporting offered by PWInsider or some other such source.

    Your last paragraph and section gets to the crux of the matter from your perspective in my humble opinion. I think you, like so many others, are outraged by the presence of spoilers and how it negatively impacts upon taped shows such as iMPACT or Smackdown. But as I said earlier, if you don't want to read spoilers, don't click on them. It's naive and unrealistic to suggest that pre taped programming won't be spoiled. If it's not on dirt sheets or wrestling websites, it's going to end up on YouTube or being discussed amongst fans in the lunchroom the next day. I don't think it is fair to blame the dirt sheets just because some people don't have the patience to wait for programming to air without cheating with spoilers.

    And let's be honest, spoilers are the least of TNA's problems. Hell, last week was live and it pulled a whopping 0.89. While you can't draw conclusions from one episode on one week, I expect the trend to continue. TNA's problems are with their lack of money, their lack of production value, their limited TV time, and their poor venue. It's unfair and inaccurate to suggest that the spoilers provided by the dirt sheets are the problem with TNA. This is another attempt by you to exert more blame on the wrestling websites than is warranted.

    Let's not lose sight of the basic premise of the topic at hand this week. Regardless of how you want to interpret the dirt sheets, the question posed was, do they enhance the product, or ruin it. And I simply fail to see how the Internet websites and dirt sheets ruin things. Are they annoying? Absolutely. Do they get on my last nerve sometimes? Without a doubt. Can they be frustrating? At times sure. Disappointing? Frequently. But do they ruin the product of professional wrestling of modern day? Absolutely not, this is a gross overstatement which simply cannot be supported. Sensationalization is and always has been a staple of the professional wrestling business. Wrestlers do it themselves directly. The WWE brass do too. So does television commentary or wrestling sources such as books or magazines. And now in the age of the Internet, the wrestling websites and dirt sheets do it too, and as far as I'm concerned, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. The dirt sheets are an asset which actually enhance the product for the most part. The suggestion that they "ruin" it is preposterous.
     
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  8. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Well...? Then why do you keep bringing them up? I'm discussing dirt sheet and insider sources. You, for some reasons, are talking about social media outlets and now you say they aren't all that important after posting big pictures of their logo's.



    And what did that add to the matches, may I ask? The dirt sheets were in as much a loss as everyone else during Punk's feud with John Cena. They added nothing. "It's real", "it was planned", "half was real, half was planned". Yeah, let's stir the pot that's already stirring. They added nothing to it. Punk did the work with his shoot. The dirt sheets just simply jumped between the "it was mostly real" stuff we already knew about. But hey, they are obviously there for friendly info. Why not try them? You curious about the new WWE Championship belt? Take a peek:

    http://www.pwinsider.com/article/69096/the-new-wwe-title-belt-using-belts-to-accentuate-the-champions-indianapolis-territory-memories-raw-and-more-this-weeks-edition-of-wrestlers-eye-radio-is-now-online.html?p=1

    Wait... You can't! Because you have to pay for it. That's right, you want the deepest secrets of the backstage, regardless of their accuracy? Open the piggy bank, boy. It's gonna cost ya. Yeah, not all of the sites do it, but that just keeps adding to what I keep saying. Dirt sheets exist to exploit us. The more they can squeeze out of a story to add more hits, the better. Just check out how many times Wrestlezone posts the spoilers for last weeks Smackdown:


    So we have the same spoilers posted by two totally different people, a non-spoiler list of the matches, a reminder that they've be giving live coverage even though they have the results already. TWICE. And then the full episode to boot. Is that last one even legal? If Slyfox ran the main site, all the reporters would be banned at this point posting so many duplicate topics. Why do they do it? More hits, more cash. Making a living out of the wrestlers, spoiling their shows, airing them illegally and so on. But hey, it's all in good fun after all. And watch out for this week's news on Smackdown. Spoilers are already posted twice, a non-spoiler list is there, we're just missing the "we'll be covering the show we already have the results for live" post, the post-show results they already had and finally the video of the show. I'd post the stuff, but I don't wanna get an infraction. They can spam their page with the same shit over and over, we can't. Common sense runs this neck of the woods. Not greed.

    So basically we can say no, we have that choice. But what of the one's that say yes? They still have that chance. They have a vehicle to do something they shouldn't be doing. A chance that TNA or WWE doesn't want to give them, but dirt sheets provide regardless. Why are they providing information WWE, TNA and other companies don't want exposed? That smells like foul play on the part of these websites. Add to that, these fee's some sites ask for their news reports, the often inaccurate reports, the constant recycling and such and you can't deny that dirt sheets play a foul game over pro wrestling. Exploiting it for their own gains.
     
    #8
  9. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    You have a far different memory of the build up toward and the subsequent fallout from the CM Punk/John Cena program from last summer. As I recall it, the dirt sheets and wrestling websites were on fire with the blend of kayfabe and reality that this program was. Sure, we had CM Punk's infamous pipe bomb delivery, but the dirt sheets ran wild with it all and had the whole wrestling fan base buzzing. Punk attending Cubs' games with the belt in tow. Appearing here and there, allegedly toting the belt even though he was not a WWE contracted superstar. The fact that the dirt sheets were as much at a loss as everyone else was exactly the point; the mixture of kayfabe and reality was indistinguishable, and the dirt sheets and websites contributed greatly to this. Sure the pot was already stirring, but they upped the buzz and added to it. Let's face it, not everyone sees RAW every week. Those who missed the pipe bomb received more than their fair share of the hype, compliments of the wrestling websites. Enhancing an already hot commodity.

    You're missing the big picture here, Killjoy. I'm not defending the exploitive nature of the dirt sheets. No one is denying that they are self serving and trying to milk the public for their personal gain. But the question is, is this type of activity "ruining" professional wrestling. And in a word, no.

    They may be a bunch of scumbags who are trying to line their own pockets at the expense of others. But this is not ruining the business. Even though their activity is self serving, it is still undeniable that a lot of their activities, as per my previous posts, are enhancing the business far more so than they are harming it.

    I don't fault the dirt sheets for trying to charge people for a sneak peek at a belt that will be readily visible to the entire world in the reasonably near future. I fault the imbeciles who would be foolish enough to do so. If someone is desperate and naive enough to engage in such a foolish venture, they deserve to lose their money. I wouldn't waste 5 cents for this, I'll wait to see it on on RAW for free.



    As I discussed earlier, I have no sympathy for the people who make a voluntary and conscious choice to view spoilers. No one puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to check them. If the individual is too impatient to wait for an episode to air on television and elects to spoil the show ahead of time, that responsibility falls upon them, not the dirt sheets.

    If I were a smoker (which I'm not) and I eventually get lung cancer, I cannot blame the people at the convenience store for selling cigarettes to me. It would have been my choice, my responsibility, so forget deference of blame.

    If I were overweight (which I'm also not), I cannot blame the folks at McDonald's for selling me Bic Mac's and super sized fries. Again, my choice, my responsibility.

    So if I, as a responsible adult, elect of my own accord to view spoilers, I cannot blame those who provide them to me. The fault falls squarely on my own shoulders for being weak enough to succumb to them.

    As a general rule of thumb, I very rarely view spoilers. My choice. Every now and then, though, I give in and I do so. But do I blame the spoiler sites for providing them? No. I give myself a kick in the ass and lambast myself for doing so, and then I move on. It's not the fault of the dirt sheets. It's the fault of those who choose to avail of them.

    Even if I were to concede that the dirt sheets play a "foul game", I still fail to understand how that ruins professional wrestling. I guess it mildly detracts from the show if I choose to check them out. Let's face it, as I said earlier, no one is forcing you to click the spoiler tags. For that matter, no one is forcing you to even visit the dirt sheets sites in the first place. The only professional wrestling website which I frequent is Wrestlezone. I think if you choose to visit a website called wrestlecrap.com, for example, you should have a pretty good idea what it has in store for you and frankly, you end up getting what you deserve. To be honest, I was totally unfamiliar with most of these websites until I started doing a little research for this debate. I choose not to view them, so they don't spoil anything for me. And they certainly don't ruin the professional wrestling product for me in any fashion.

    As I have consistently stated, the notion of the pro wrestling websites and dirt sheets ruining wrestling is ludicrous. They may annoy me. They may irritate me or disappoint me. They may even spoil things for me if I voluntarily elect to use them. But they absolutely don't ruin anything. The sites such as Wrestlezone, they enhance the product and make it a far more enjoyable past time for me.
     
    #9
  10. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    No. Last I checked, these pictures were added by himself to Twitter. The part I bolded has you admitting the dirt sheets do not hold all the facts and will simply make stuff up. Do you really think the feud would've been less significant if the dirt sheets weren't just pulling the pictures out of his own Twitter handle? The bulk of it all was the promo's on Raw. Him taking pictures of the belt on the fridge and such did not push the feud. Quit kidding yourself.



    Of course it is. I just showed you this very site posts videos of these shows. They spoil these shows. They make up rumors that the company workers at times have to go out of their way to dismiss. Do you think Kharma ever wanted people to find out she had a miscarriage? Do you think TNA wanted people to find about the Bubba The Love Sponge scandal? Do you think WWE wanted people to know they fired Daniel Bryan because they screwed up? Of course not. The dirt sheets are the equivalent of Hollywood paparazzi who hound pro wrestling for any information they can expose with no care of it being good or bad. All for the bucks they get.


    Isn't ruining the business? Contract negotiations are pretty much public. The fact that a TNA worker has tried to sabotage them and caused WWE to get their hands dirty is public. Backstage mishaps become public. Every error TNA, WWE or any other company commits becomes public. You tell me how good it must be for TNA that fans believe PPV sales once a low 7000. Private information that's probably faked for hits, exploited. People not getting along with Brock Lesnar or The Rock. What storyline does that enhance, Habsy? None. It's exploitation, not enhancement. WWE's audience is mostly comprised of kids who probably don't have a single clue about these dirt sheets. You think it would be good for them to know all the issues involving guys like Jeff Hardy, Randy Orton or John Cena? Look at Cena! His divorce is now public. The patron saint of purity in wrestling is a part of a scandal thanks to the dirt sheets and their need to exploit wrestling.


    Oh give me a break. If you see a peep-hole and there's a hot, naked woman on the other side, who do you blame? The peep-hole for being there? The hot woman for being naked? Or yourself for looking? You may not look, but others will. Don't try to justify them simply because the vehicle is there. It doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. Big Mac's don't make you fat, lack of proper diet and exercise do. I should know. As far as I'm concerned, smoking nicotine should be illegal. It's more dangerous to your health than weed and similarly addictive. But more to the point, Big Macs and Blunts affect us. Dirt Sheets affect pro wrestling. Pirated music is a far better analogy than your damn Big Mac's. People download that music for free. Maybe most people pay via iTunes and such, but that doesn't mean that the people who do pirate music aren't affecting the music biz. Just look at how music stores fell. It was because of piracy, forcing music labels to go from CD's to downloadable content. And even so, there are times when content is leaked before it's intended release. Same with the movie business as well. Dirt sheets are akin to piracy.

    Play ignorant to it all you want, that's not what they all say. It's like taking a test and having the answers in clear view. Maybe you won't do it, but others will. Those that do are cheating on the test.
     
    #10
  11. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    I don't really care who uploaded the pictures or to where. The fact of the matter is, the dirt sheets and the various websites picked up on them and reported them. Their origin is irrelevant. Personally, I am almost never on twitter. The fact that I saw the pictures or read the reports means they had to have shown up on the various websites. The websites were reporting the facts as they saw them, and were helping to blur the lines of reality and kayfabe in the process. Clearly, Punk's mic work on RAW was pivotal. But the websites helped to supplement it, there's no doubt about it. You quit kidding yourself.

    And I totally disagree with the spin you put on my statement which you bolded. I'm not suggesting they were simply making things up. I'm saying they were reporting things as they saw them. And they were duped, just like the rest of us. Just like the New York Times were regarding Sting as discussed previously.

    I'm not going to discuss my viewpoint on spoilers yet again. This very site posting spoilers would be irrelevant if the people who don't wish to see them simply elect to not do so. They make up rumors? A biased view from your own perspective. I'd suggest that they tend to report things that they think is probably accurate without performing full due diligence. This may make them irresponsible and self serving. Hardly ruins the professional wrestling product, though.

    Regarding Kharma or Bubba the Love Sponge, that's simply the price to pay for fame and fortune. All celebrities, regardless of their niche, have to deal with this sort of nonsense. I like your Hollywood paparazzi analogy. These guys are scumbags who exploit celebrities for their own selfish purposes, just like some of the dirt sheets do to the wrestlers. But the paparazzi don't ruin movies or television, do they? They irritate and antagonize the parties involved, but they ultimately don't ruin anything. And most people have the common sense to take the reporting of the paparazzi worth a grain of salt, dismissing it as garbage. Just like professional wrestling fans can and will do when the wrestling "paparazzi" get carried away. Which doesn't happen 100% of the time as you imply.

    People in the public eye should expect to face a greater degree of scrutiny than the average Joe. That may be unfortunate, but that's reality, and it applies to actors, musicians, athletes, and of course superstars. It's the price they all pay for fame and fortune. All celebrities get exploited when they go through marital troubles, legal issues, or whatever else. Don't hate the players, hate the game. It's always been that way and always will be.

    And let's not be naive. WWE or TNA will perform equal exploitation on open television, yet I don't hear anyone complaining about that. I'm sure Jeff Hardy did not enjoy seeing his drug problems paraded around television, in both WWE and TNA, as part of story lines. I doubt Edge, Lita, and the other Hardy enjoyed having their real life love triangle exploited on WWE television. This type of exploitation is not unique to the dirt sheets; it's inherent in the very fabric of the professional wrestling business. Please spare me your preaching and judgmental comments.

    Regarding the peep hole analogy, I'm sure I'd have a look. But that decision would fall squarely on my own shoulders. It wouldn't be the woman's fault. It wouldn't be the person who made the peephole's fault. It would all be on me. It's called personal responsibility for your own actions. Just like those who view the spoilers should take personal responsibility for their decision to do so, rather than blame the spoiler sites. My smoking and McDonald's analogies are certainly not perfect, but they still make the exact same point. Music piracy, same thing. Personal responsibility for your own actions. I don't illegally download music but if I did, it would be my own fault. I don't watch PPV's via streams to avoid purchasing them, never have, never will, wouldn't know where to begin to do so and have no interest in finding out. Personal responsibility regarding personal decisions. Cheating on a test, same thing. Personal responsibility. Personal decisions. All of these examples are the same thing. People face difficult choices all the time. But if they make the wrong choices, such as viewing spoilers or watching programs on spoiler sites prior to their appearance on TV, that's the fault of the decision of the person without the will power or patience to resist. I don't fault the websites for this small aspect of their conduct. And this certainly doesn't spell ruin for the business of professional wrestling.
     
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  12. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    But they are there. That still doesn't change the fact that they are there for people to look at. That doesn't change the fact that dirt sheets are promoting something detrimental to wrestling TV. Whether you choose to ignore them, they are still there and they do their damage. Why else would TNA go live for the summer? They wouldn't need to if it weren't for these spoilers. If spoilers don't do that much why would WCW Monday Nitro go a few minutes early and spoil Monday Night Raw? Spoilers do damage regardless.

    I love that "some" you italized. It's basically you admitting but not wanting to that I'm right. It still happens. And that's damage enough to prove I'm right. You put on a scale the good and the bad of these reports, the bad will outweigh the good. Slandering news reports, spoilers, video promotion, some sights post the Smackdown shows before they air in the U.S. You know, illegal.



    So basically these vehicles that allow us to conduct illegal activities should just sit there and exist? Do nothing to them, let them sit there and stew just don't use them. You forget to lock your car and someone steals stuff from it. It's all on the thief, right? You had no play in your car being robbed, right?

    Let's recap and put these things on a scale.

    Good (According to Habsy)

    * It enhances storylines.

    Bad (According to the Enlightening Scion Of Wisdom Himself)

    * Enables people to read show results before they air and even airs the shows themselves.

    * Private backstage scandals become public.

    * Exploitation of all of the above for self-profit.

    * And let me add that these guys really love to tot their own horns. Biased opinions and such via editorials and videos and such.

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/editorials

    Have you read this stuff? We do these things on the forums for free. But they on the other hand, get paid to do them. As if I should give a crap about what Josh Isenberg liked and disliked about Impact last Thursday. The fucker posts his thoughts, I call bullshit on it, it goes nowhere, he gets paid, TNA probably thinks he's an idiot who doesn't know what he's talking about.
     
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  13. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    First of all, let me state for the record that I absolutely hate debating with a series of quote after quote after quote. So I'll respond to your last post without doing so.

    At risk of redundancy, my position on spoilers has been clear and consistent. Sure they are still there. But they are only detrimental to TV if you utilize them. They only do damage if you make the personal choice to check them out. Personal choice, personal preference, personal responsibility. The extent of their issue is dictated by the extent you use them. For me that's virtually zero, so they certainly don't ruin any aspect of professional wrestling for me.

    You say I make an admission that you have been correct. Not the case at all. I'm just pointing out that some of the dirt sheets are guilty of what you suggest. It would be silly to suggest that 100% of the websites are reputable and beneficial. But make no mistake about it, in the grand scheme of things, I still maintain that you are incorrect.

    You go on and on about illegal activities of the various sites and dirt sheets. I'm sure the WWE brass have at least the same knowledge as The Killjoy, hatehabsforever, or anyone else in the IWC. Safe to say that it's one of two scenarios:

    a) the activities are not truly illegal. In other words, there are loopholes which allow the sites leeway to conduct their business without breaking any laws. I'm not sure that this is the case, but if it is, it's a non-issue.

    b) WWE are aware of the situation, but have deemed it to not be a significant problem. And if it isn't problematic for them, why should it be a problem for us? If WWE had an issue with these "illegal" activities, they would have taken steps to shut them down. My guess is that they are not nearly the issue that you try to exaggerate then to be.

    You erroneously state that regarding the news reports, the bad outweighs the good. Not true. I would propose a fairly even split between the bad, the good, and the irrelevant/opinionated.

    Finally, you take issue with the fact that Isenberg and others like him get paid to state opinions that people don't care about. Maybe so, but how is that different from sports reporters being paid to give their opinions?

    On ESPN, I don't like Stephen A. Smith, and I absolutely detest Colin Cowherd. Yet they get paid to disseminate their opinions on ESPN TV. Do I like that? No. Do I care about the opinions they express? Nope. Are they ruining professional sports? Of course not. They are an insignificant cog in the wheel of the situation. I choose to ignore them and rarely tune in to them. Perhaps you should consider the same regarding the Chair Shot Reality dudes.
     
    #13
  14. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    *Looks at Habsy's past debates* Oh, the irony. You still have yet to tell me or anyone else what positive reason could ever exist for spoilers to be allowed. You have yet to tell me what authorization do the dirt sheets have to use this information as desired. You have yet to point out anything that makes the dirt sheets seem useful other than "it enhances storylines". I'm still scratching my head wondering when they ever did anything to stimulate my viewing experience. The reality is that wrestling would be the same with or without them in terms of their onscreen product and they would also be better off without them in the backstage side knowing there isn't some eavesdropping fly watching ready to exploit whatever they can find.

    Why do we need JR's blog re-posted here? Why does every tweet end up re-posted as "news"? If one person found it on the original source, others could too. But instead of adding JR's hits for his site and blog, we do it for this site instead. A second-hand source taking information for their own gain.

    Look at the main page right now and see. Smackdown spoilers in the bottom, "live coverage" on the top. Plus 2 more spoilers a page or two back. I'd post them, but that's a against the rules. Why? We don't want to exploit that problem. The main site? Posts it 3 or 4 times. Anything to make those wallets fatter. I'll leave it there for this post. I'm taking bets on Habsy's next response being about how "clicking the spoilers are on us and not them". Still not changing the fact that... Well, they're there. Illegal or not, we can't post them, why do they?
     
    #14
  15. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    Wow, an interesting day in the life of the dirt sheets and the insider wrestling websites. Specifically, I spent some time today looking at the main site here on Wrestlezone. And what did I see?


    [​IMG]

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255969-knockouts-name-changes-crimsongoldberg-jabs-continue

    Nick Paglino is reporting that there has been an ongoing war of words, via Twitter as well as on TV on a couple of occasions, between Bill Goldberg and Crimson, specifically regarding comparisons between the undefeated streaks of the two. So what does it all mean?

    Paglino is reporting factually. He is mentioning comments which absolutely occurred on iMPACT, by Crimson, directed at Goldberg. And he refers to tweets that definitely occurred.

    No shoddy reporting. No factual inaccuracies. Just reporting what has been said. And it has been creating a buzz, especially considering the whole Open Challenge thing. Paglino never states that there is an imminent program between the two. He doesn't even really imply it. But just by factually recounting tweets and television comments, the pot has been stirred. Will Goldberg come to TNA? Should he? What type of program could occur between the two? Would Goldberg put Crimson over? Or would he be the one to end the streak? A buzz has been created, interest has been peaked, yet as I see it, Paglino has done nothing wrong. How does creating a buzz like this constitute a bad thing? How does this insider reporting ruin professional wrestling? If Crimson/Goldberg happens, Paglino has helped advance a storyline, knowingly or unknowingly. If it doesn't, hype has happened, and Crimson is being talked about again. Hardly sounds like ruining the modern day professional wrestling product to me.


    [​IMG]

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255951-former-wwe-star-gets-tryout-match-prior-to-impact-last-night

    Again, Nick Paglino is reporting factually that Chris Masters received a dark match tryout versus Robbie E., prior to last night's live iMPACT. Heck, maybe not everything these guys say is incorrect or made up or factually inaccurate after all.

    No suggestion is being made that Masters is coming to TNA, but again, discussion has been generated and interest has been stimulated without Paglino doing or saying anything wrong. If the IWC is talking about Masters again, that has to be seen as a positive thing. If Masters does indeed come to TNA, again, Paglino has helped advance a storyline. If not, no harm done. Again, Paglino hasn't said or done anything wrong or deceptive. Another example of the dirt sheets helping to enhance the product.


    And of course, there's this:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/255933-wwe-champion-to-make-appearance-for-tna-this-weekend

    Damn that Nick Paglino! He is ruining professional wrestling! After all, there's really only two possibilities here:

    a) Nick Paglino is reporting factually. Christian (Cage) is going to appear at Slammiversary, with permission from WWE of course. And that s.o.b. Pagino has ruined it by posting about it ahead of time. In doing so, he has ruined the potential surprise. I hate it when the potential is there for a big surprise, yet someone posts about it in advance. It ruins pro wrestling. Not to be confused with the spoilers that discuss wrestling action which has already occurred but hasn't aired yet, spilling the beans on a potential surprise, an event which would be far more effective if it occurred without prior knowledge, is a form of "spoiler" in and of itself. And Paglino has done just that.

    But wait a minute. Dixie Carter did the exact same thing on twitter. The goddamn president of the company, the one in control of the show, posted about the occurrence in advance, spoiling the potential surprise factor in it. If Paglino, or LaBar, or one of these dudes do this, you would blast them for ruining professional wrestling, cheating the wrestling fans of a feel good moment. Yet Dixie Carter does it, and she gets a free pass. Maybe Dixie Carter is the one who is ruining professional wrestling, not the dirt sheets. After all, she does it all the time. An announcement that will change professional wrestling forever, "they" are coming, etc., Sounds ludicrous to suggest that TNA's president could be responsible for ruining professional wrestling. And it's equally ridiculous to suggest that the dirt sheet writers are ruining it, when they do the exact same thing.

    b) The flip side of it, of course, is that Nick Paglino is full of shit. He is reporting on an incident which has no realistic chance of occurring. There's no way that a WWE contracted employee and a current title holder will be allowed to appear on TNA programming or be inducted into their Hall of Fame, Ric Flair bargaining aside. He's pulling the story out of his ass with no factual basis, getting the fans' anticipation elevated, and it will ultimately end in disappointment. The bastard!

    Oh yeah, Dixie Carter on twitter, I forgot about that. She was the first one to suggest it. If it doesn't happen, she is the one who is blowing smoke out of her ass. She's the one getting the fans' hopes up. She's the one who would be disappointing them. Yet when Paglino does it, he's ruining professional wrestling. When Dixie does it, it's simply business as usual.

    Bottom line is that Paglino may well be reporting accurately in the above scenarios. If he is, what's the problem? I guess the dirt sheets are not only about misinformation and exploitation. If he isn't, well he's only doing the same thing that the president of TNA wrestling is doing too. Hardly smacks of ruining the professional wrestling product if you ask me.

    Regarding some of the questions you posed, I'd be more than happy to answer them. A positive reason for spoilers? Because there's obviously a demand for them. People clearly have an appetite for them. You may not like them, I may not like them, lots of other people may not either, but clearly the demand is there, otherwise they would cease to exist. It's all about giving the people what they want, and like it or not, plenty of people do want them.

    What authorization do they have to use the information as they see fit? None, but there's none necessary. As soon as you attain celebrity status, you're life becomes an open book. That's an unfortunate statement, but it's reality. Just ask the actors, or singers, or athletes, who are constantly subjected to the same degree of scrutiny. It's the price you pay for the fame and fortune that accompanies celebrity status.

    How are they useful, other than enhancing story lines? There you go again, trying to oversimplify something which in reality is far broader and more encompassing than your one phrase depiction would suggest. You tried to pull that stunt last round with your oversimplification of the John Cena heel turn, and you're trying to do it again. Enhancing story lines is significant. They create a buzz, an energy, an excitement. They satisfy a curiosity or an appetite for knowledge. They gauge interest. They assess success or failure. They bring attention to newer superstars. There's no shortage of reasons why some people view these dirt sheets and websites as useful. Just because you don't personally agree, doesn't change this fact.

    And the wrestling websites are summaries, so that people don't have to go to JR's blog, and twitter, and Facebook, to get their wrestling fix. One stop shopping for the impatient or lazy.
     
    #15
  16. ABMorales787

    ABMorales787 Lord And Master
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    Conclusion

    Cute post. Just one issue. What does it do for television? Nothing. Does it boost buyrates, ratings, etc... Fuck no. Why? Easy, it's a very limited amount of people who check these sites out in comparison to the broad wrestling fan scale and to add more to it, these things are said by the wrestlers themselves. Those were tweets between Goldberg and Crimson. Christian tweeted that he was heading to Slammiversary and so on. The wrestlers are doing that via social media. The dirt sheets pluck it and re-post it. What's more popular? Twitter? Or WrestleZone? There's far more chances that you'll see the tweet on Twitter than on WrestleZone. Am I right? Of course I'm right.

    http://twitter.com/#!/Christian4Peeps

    https://twitter.com/#!/WRESTLEZONEcom

    As of this post, Christian's Twitter handle has 333,386 followers versus WrestleZone's 10,431. Meaning more people would see Christian's tweets out of his handle than they would from WrestleZone's when they announce the "news". Wanna add more to the burn? Remember that part I said about the dirt sheet's followers being minimal in scale with wrestling fans?

    https://twitter.com/#!/officialcrimson

    At 34,446 Crimson's Twitter Handle has 3 times as many followers as WrestleZone.


    Why are WWE.com shows posted on these sites? Do they have WWE's consent? Yes and no respectively. That lowers hits for WWE's website while these sites gain them. It hauls people away from the official sites of WWE and TNA and into these sites. What does that lead to?


    Spoilers. Which the curious eye will catch. And if that curious eye doesn't like what he reads, that's views lost for WWE. Oh, still curious? Relax. Dirt Sheet dom com here will post the show later. Taking views away from WWE.com. And if the show was uploaded via another server that wasn't WWE, well that's piracy. Which these sites would in terms be making money of. Illegal.
    Lack of privacy. Intimacy becomes compromised backstage now as everything planned, every move made risks getting exposed. Do you think WWE or TNA wanted people to know they are in legal issues against each other? No. Do you think WWE or Randy Orton want people to know about their problems? No secret is safe anymore and as such, every error is exposed. MMA or boxing don't face that problem of course since they aren't staged. Wrestling is and does suffer due to this.
    And they make money out of the hard work of pro wrestling. Charging you to see this information. Exploiting whatever fan comes by and see's this. You add to that the spoilers, the exposed backstage element of pro wrestling, re-posting what the companies and their workers have already posted on their own sites, add these fee's some charge and you put them on a scale with "generating more buzz" or "enhancing storylines". You'll see that the scale goes in my favor. Do you think the supposed buzz created by Goldberg and Crimson will spark buyrates? Because I don't. In contrast ratings drop due to spoilers and unauthorized postings. People get the upper hand on un-aired shows and diminish it's viewership. Thanks for that dirt sheets. You do more damage than good in the grand scheme of things.
     
    #16
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  17. hatehabsforever

    hatehabsforever Moderator
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    First of all, before I wrap this all up, let me thank you for a very interesting and thought provoking debate. I also want to thank you for your disappearing act yesterday. Posting four hours later than the 24 hour limit, it was very considerate of you to concede the punctuality points so late in the game.

    Before I wrap this all up, just a few quick points.

    "...it's a very limited amount of people who check these sites out in comparison to the broad wrestling fan scale..."

    An interesting statement. Please explain to me, if this statement is indeed true, how do these websites "ruin" professional wrestling? If their numbers are so low, I would think any negative effect on the professional wrestling product would be pretty minimal. You can't have it both ways, Killjoy. You cannot state that their numbers are insignificantly low, while being significant enough to ruin the modern day product.

    Most of the rest of your concluding post was totally irrelevant. Comparisons of twitter followers to just one isolated website, what does this tell us? Absolutely nothing. Twitter is a global phenomenon. Of course there are more people on there than on Wrestlezone. Means nothing. And it still doesn't change the fact that the websites do enhance the product for those who choose to avail of them.

    And not to nitpick, but I don't think Christian tweeted anything. Tipping her hand about future developments, that's more of a Dixie Carter thing. Which apparently is OK for her to do, but an absolute travesty when Paglino and others do it.

    Everything else in your post was simply a wrap up of things which we've already discussed to death. So on that note, let's wrap this up.


    [size=+2]Concluding Statements[/size]​

    In conclusion, let me start off by thanking D-Man for organizing the 2012 Wrestlezone Debater's League. Thanks as well to Dagger Dias for helping to moderate it and later helping to judge. A big thank you to FunKay, CH David, Nate, and SavageTaker (from the earlier rounds) who gave up their free time to serve as judges; the contest could not have occurred without you. Thanks to the other guys who participated, and a special shout out to The Killjoy, who I am battling for the third time in the ultimate rubber match. Win or lose, I've really enjoyed it all, and will be back again next year. Hopefully as defending champion!

    [​IMG]

    As in our previous two battles, this was another hard fought battle with Killjoy. I thought he did a tremendous job again, and I would have expected no less.

    [​IMG]

    We had diametrically opposite viewpoints as to the question at hand. At one end of the spectrum, we had Killjoy, who chose to focus exclusively on a tunnel vision aspect of the topic. He spoke only of the dirt sheets, and only from the perspective of their negative reporting. I, on the other hand, chose to read the topic and take it at face value in a manner which I think D-Man intended. The topic of the debate pertained to dirt sheets and professional wrestling websites such as Wrestlezone. Sure, this would include the less reputable and more exploitive dirt sheets, but would also include more responsible reporting sites; speculative, opinion-based commentary; and forums geared toward discussion and exchange of ideas. When looked at it through the broader perspective which was intended, it has to be concluding that these websites unquestionably enhance the overall professional wrestling product, and they clearly don't ruin it in any way, shape, or form. These websites provide a plethora of information, some of it accurate, some of it not so much. They generate a lot of material, provide a diversity of opinions, and elicit a wealth if knowledge. And discussion and knowledge of the overall product, and the forum to express it, can do nothing other than enhance the product.

    [​IMG]

    Even if I were to adopt Killjoy's myopic view of the topic, I still don't see how the dirt sheets ruin the professional wrestling product. When at their lowest, they are at most a nuisance, an aggravation, an irritation. They frustrate us with their blatant self serving approach, and they occasionally disappoint us with their exploitation of false hopes. At their highest, they are actually a source of information which can be more difficult to locate by other means. Either way, the suggestion that they ruin the product is absurd and is a gross exaggeration.

    [​IMG]

    One prevalent aspect of modern day professional wrestling is the blurring of the lines between reality and kayfabe. There are many mechanisms at play to achieve this result, and the dirt sheets and professional wrestling websites and insider reports have become an effective tool in doing so. It is this blending of fiction and non-fiction which results in an enhanced modern day product. And the websites being discussed are at least somewhat responsible for it.

    My esteemed opponent would have you believe that there's no redeeming feature in the wrestling sites. I maintain, however, that there is plenty of reputable information to be found there. There is a diversity of opinions contained therein, and these facts assist us all in the shaping of our own personal opinions. Hell, even the results of the less reputable dirt sheets that Killjoy has erroneously focused exclusively on help build our knowledge. The process of sifting through this bullshit is knowledge-building as well. The end result? A more educated and knowledgeable professional wrestling fan. A better appreciation of the product. And an enhanced result.

    Spoilers are a source of frustration for many, but the simple fact of the matter is, no one forces anyone to check them. No one forces anyone to log onto these sites, no one makes you read spoilers, and any negativity from doing so falls squarely on the shoulders of the offenders.

    Let's face it, we're all still here. If the professional wrestling product was being ruined by the dirt sheets and websites, we'd stop watching. We certainly would stop perusing websites of this nature. We even would forego logging onto and spending time here on Wrestlezone. And we certainly would not be participating in or reading a Debater's League. We would log out and never return. Yet here we are, still here. My only question for Killjoy, or anyone who feels the way he supposedly does, is: Why are you still here? Clearly the product has not been ruined for you. In fact, it has been enhanced, and that is the essence of what the question at hand boils down to.

    That does it for me. I wish The Killjoy the best of luck in the scoring of the debate :)

    [​IMG]
     
    #17
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  18. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    And.... Stop!

    This concludes the sudden death round and judges can begin scoring immediately, then D-Man will announce our winner.
     
    #18
  19. FunKay the Inevitable

    FunKay the Inevitable People Like Me, We Don't Play

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    Where's my Rock meme? Because FINALLY...WE HAVE REACHED THE END OF THE TOURNAMENT!

    Clarity: Killjoy for me here. He broke down the posts, used the spoiler tags to hide the quotes and made it easier to read. hateshabs, at times, fell into the trap of doing blocks of text and we've expressed quite frequently how dull that can be.

    Punctuality: hateshabs and Killjoy went back forth on this one, but if my (bad) math is right, I think habs wins the point.

    Informative: More was offered from hateshabs overall and for me that's good enough to win him the point.

    Persuasion: Difficult, perhaps the most difficult of the season. On one hand I liked both men’s points on certain areas. On the other hand, I disagreed with them in other areas. I wasn't completely swayed by either man and that's a credit to them as debaters as I was unsure who to side with for a long time, but ultimately the honour fell to hateshabs. I think I found his argument just a tad more compelling in terms of it mixed reality vs. fact, but make no mistake, this was close to being a coin toss. Killjoy did an excellent job.

    FunKay Scores It: hateshabsforever: 4, Killjoy: 1

    Congratulations to both men on an absolutely stellar performance and a tremendous battle. This was a damn close one, even if my scoring does not reflect that.
     
    #19
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  20. Dagger Dias

    Dagger Dias Natural 20
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    Carity: Habs. His use of centered underlined text to break up segments of his opener and the images he added to several posts were very well done. It made the reading more enjoyable as well as more organized.

    Punctuality: Habs. No one was in violation of the 24 hour limit for a response and both were generally quick in responding, although a couple of posts slowed Killjoy down a bit in this category.

    Informative: Killjoy. He did an excellent job of bringing up other sources of information.

    Persuasive: Habs. Both fought hard, but habs had me convinced from opening to conclusion in a very strong argument.

    I scored it as: Habs 4, Killjoy 1. Good luck guys and congrats on being the finalists! :)
     
    #20
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  21. CH David

    CH David A Jock That Loves Pepsi

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    Clarity - I'm going with Habs on this one. Overall his posts looked just a little bit better to me.

    Point - hatehabsforever

    Punctuality - I'll listen to my fellow judges.

    Point - hatehabsforever

    Informative - I did enjoy all the pictures that Habs used. However I enjoyed seeing the links provided by Killjoy. Screenshot was rad too.

    Point - The Killjoy

    Persuasion - I went with Habs. I liked Killjoy's arguments. I was on his side early. But after reading it all, the reality/fact portion was eventually the deciding factor for me.

    Points - hatehabsforever

    CH David scores this hatehabsforever 4, The Killjoy 1.
     
    #21
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  22. D-Man

    D-Man Gone but never forgotten.

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    The final score for this debate has The Killjoy with 3 points to hatehabsforever's 12 which means....​


    [​IMG]

    Congratulations to hatehabsforever for defeating The Killjoy and becoming the 2012 Debater's League Tournament Champion!!!
     
    #22
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