You Tapped Out!...Or not?

[Scott Star]

First off, I wanna thank everyone for the awesome response to my very first thread, it was way better than I expected. Once again, since I'm a bit green at this, feel free to move this thread if it's been discussed already. It's just something that's bothered me for awhile now.

I recently read that WWE has replaced a PPV (Unforgiven if I'm not mistaken) with something called Breaking Point, an all Submissions PPV. This brings up my point.

What happened to submission wrestling??

It's all but dead in the most powerful wrestling company on the planet, just like the Tag Division I spoke of before. Back in the "glory days" of wrestling, we had technicians like Benoit, Angle, Jericho (when The Walls was still a big move), Eddie Guerrero, the list goes on and on. While we're not short on technicians nowadays, it almost seems like Submission wrestling is completely gone. How often do you see tap out victories anymore? When John Cena slaps his STF on? Despite the fact that I don't care for that (at times poorly executed) move, the crowd still goes nuts. To me, whenever a finishing submission hold is slapped on in the middle of the ring, whether it be from a face or a heel, the effect works just as well if not better than a false finish. As a fan, when you saw the hold slapped on, you knew that there was a chance the match was over. It was a great, great way of building suspense and drama. Who can forget Austin's bloody visage before he passed out in the Sharpshooter? It made Bret Hart a heel and turned Austin into a mega star.

Then came the losses: Jericho goes on hiatus for two years, Benoit went on a permanent hiatus (absolutely no disrespect intended, I was a huge Benoit fan), Angle went to TNA, etc. etc. What happened? WWE must not have liked CM Punk's link to ROH and the like because the Anaconda Vice quietly disappeared. With Ric Flair in retirement, the only submission hold we legitimately see now is the STF. And now we're supposed to buy into a Submissions specialty PPV? Some people I've talked to think that Benoit's death had lots to do with it but to omit submissions wrestling entirely because of that it's extreme, even for WWE standards. Say what you want about it's lack of flash and high spots, Submission moves still captured people's attention and brought drama and excitement to matches. So, enough from me, have at it peeps, I want to hear your theories.

What do you think happened to Submissions wrestling and do you think it should experience a comeback?

 

[Raw Power]

Yeah, I totally agree with you, and it's a shame it died, I used to especialyl mark out for the Crippler Crossface and The Walls of Jericho, and you even had guys like The Rock breaking out the Sharpshooter every so often. Angle learnt the Ankle Lock, and Guerrero used the Laso from El Paso once in a while. Edge has the Edgecator or whatever (that like inverse Sharpshooter thing) and either he should start using it more, or someone else should get it. Tbh though, most of the big names are power guys, or quick, agile guys who don't really fit havign a submission - e.g. Batista, Hardy, HBK, HHH etc...I still don't think a submission hold suits Cena but it works so whatever. Undertaker started using that Hell's Gate thing which is pretty high profile - nto as visually impressive as The Walls.. etc though, but it's still there. They should let CM Punk use the Anaconda Vice again, just to change it up sometimes. Even the next generation of guys looking to break into the main event scene don't seem suited to a submission finisher - e.g. MVP, Kofi, DiBiase, Christian, Morrison - although Swagger could definetly pull it off - maybe he could steal the "Brock Lock"?

 

[Gifted Music]

I think Submissions may make their way back...We've seen Edge start using the Sharpshooter quite a bit recently(before his injury) aswell as Jericho using the Walls more and more..Theres quite a few guys who have used Submissions in the past including most recently, The Big Show.

John Cena- John Cena, ofcourse, has the STF...He's really one, if not the only guy, who finishes guys off with a Submission...But the STF can be seen as a serious submission.

The Big Show- We've seen The Big Show debut that Camel Clutch type move recently..I think the Big Show could be seen as a threat, especially since he just HAD a Submission Match with John Cena.

Shawn Michaels- Assuming he comesback by then, has used Submissions recently..That Inverted Figure 4, the Crossface, and the Sharpshooter although, if he's a face, I wouldn't recommend using the Sharpshooter.

Triple H- He's used the Crossface, that Indian Deathlock..So Triple H would have a few submissions to break out if he was to win the match.

Other stars on RAW who I think would benefit from adding a Submission move to their arsenal and are capable of it: Ted Dibiase(why doesn't he use the Million Dollar Dream?), The Miz, MVP, Jack Swagger, Cody Rhodes, Batista.

As for ECW...
Christian- We've seen him use a Cloverleaf submission although I think he'd have to take after Edge and learn atleast one more move.

William Regal- He's used the Regal Stretch and is capable of perfecting an array of Submissions.

Other ECW Superstars who could benefit: Tommy Dreamer, Shelton Benjamin

And Smackdown...

Charlie Haas:He uses the Haas of Pain but realistically, who expects Haas to actually appear on a PPV? When was his last PPV match?2004?I'm just guessing on that one.

Chris Jericho: Ofcourse he has the Walls of Jericho..Being as that used to be THE move he used to finish off opponets, it could be seen as a threat in a Submission match.

CM Punk: He used a variety of Submissions in ROH and used the Anaconda Vice briefly in WWE so I could definately see him bringing that back out.

Edge:Unfortunately he won't be participating in the PPV but he does have a few good submissions.

Melina:The only Diva who really uses Submissions so that could pose a problem if she's facing Michelle McCool.

Natalya:I've SEEN her use the Sharpshooter so I assume She can make a nice pairing with Melina.

The Great Khali: He has that Khali Vice Grip which can be seen as a threat seeing as he's put down guys like Mysterio, Batista, and The Undertaker.

The Undertaker: He's worked on developing more Submissions in the latter stages of his career.. He has that Dragon Sleeper, the Triangle Choke, and that Gogoplata(or Hell's Gate as JR calls it), so The Phenom could definately be seen as a Submission threat.

Other SD Stars who could benefit:Tyson Kidd(come on, The Hart Dynasty and only Natalya uses the Sharpshooter?), Mike Knox(he may have one..I just havn't cared enough about him to pay attention.)...Matt Hardy..John Morrison...Dolph Ziggler..David Hart Smith(same thing.. These guys are supposed to carry on the Hart Legacy and NATALYA is the one they choose to use the Sharpshooter? I know they're heels but still..Natalya doesn't even wrestle regularly!)

In conclusion..Theres a number of guys who display submissions but theres a number of BIG names who do not like: Randy Orton, Legacy, Batista(who should be back by then), Jack Swagger, Tommy Dreamer, Jeff Hardy(if he's still with the company), John Morrison, MVP...So some people(especially Orton and Legacy who figure to be part of the PPV), need to establish Submisssions NOW so they can be seen as effective by the time the PPV rolls around.

 

[Paradox]

I do miss submissions. Do I know why we have seen them disappear? Not exactly, but I've got some ideas on why they have become less and less. Though Edge started using the sharpshooter before he was injured. You are right the only submission that we see anymore that has ends a match is the STF. Now I know that it's a solid submission. I wish that more submissions would be used. I think Punk should bring back the anaconda vice. It's a beast of a submission hold, that I don't think anyone in ecw ever got out of it while he used it. (correct me if I'm wrong) I also remember Triple H using some form of the Indian Deathlock. ( I think that was the name of it.) Or HBK putting a reverse figure four on.

I have a couple of ideas on I have on why submissions have become lost as a finisher, or a way to end a match. It's something that you said in your post. It's a false finish, once people begin to get out of submissions the move loses all of it muster. Look at Triple h. (No I'm not bashing him, just using him to prove a point.) Every time Cena clamps on the STF. You know he's going to get out of it or reverse it. Then once one big name gets out they all do. The last time Cena won a title match with the STF, was Armageddon last year against Jericho After he hit with an Fu, or Attitude Adjustment. How did Taker win his last title? He made Edge tap at Mania. Then this year HBK made it to the ropes, after taking a worse beating then Edge took last year. Look back when Jericho first applied the Walls of Jericho, or Angle with the Angle lock. No one would get out of them. Then one person began to get out of it. They all began to get out of the move. Just because one major name gets out of it once does not me that everyone of them should be able to get out of it.

A great example of this was last monday night on raw, Triple h put Cena in a Sleeper hold. I'm not sure who, but someone in the LD, said what are they talking about it ending the match it's only a sleeper hold. This old submission that's main purpose was to cause your opponent to lose consciousness, because lack of blood to the head. This use to be a solid move. Yet, over the years how many times have we seen that hold take the guy to the limit, and him raise his hand at the last second. The move has been changed from a strong submission to just another move.

Another reason I think that they have become lost, is wwe is big on a power move ending a match. Something that is going to put some one down for 3 count. Now I'm not saying that it's a bad thing, but it doesn't work for some guys. Look at guys like Punk, and Jericho. They aren't big guys they shouldn't have some big finisher. I like the GTS, but there are times it doesn't work for me.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about. When Punk was facing Umaga. He's built as a underdog through the whole match someone that is smaller and has to find away to win. Then he picks up this guy that's over 300 pounds and just puts him over his shoulders and throws him over to hit him with a knee. Just doesn't seem credible, not only to him, but to the big guy. When I personally think if he put on the anaconda vice he would look just as good, or better. Least he would look more credible.

While Jericho's finisher isn't as bad as Punks. (I Like the codebreaker, it's a sweet looking move) I think that he should have reintroduce the Liontamer. We saw this last year on Cena towards the end of a raw. The move looks friggin' sick. While it wouldn't be as easy to put on a bigger guy like Taker or Show... Okay Show, it would still be a great way to end a match. No one is going to be getting to ropes from that move. He's got a knee on your head, and then a boston crab hold on.

Do I think that Submission wrestling should come back? Yeah it should come back. That's part of the reason I'm looking forward to Breaking Point, because that's all it's going to be. To me a submission match was the original I quit match. You put your opponent in so much pain they had to quit. It was a submission match that made Austin, because he wouldn't quit, and wouldn't give into the pain. Do I think it will make a comeback? Maybe, I think a lot of it has to do with this ppv and how it is received with the fans. So far it's not being received well, at least by some people on this forum.

So that's my two cents.

 

[Scott Star]

I have a couple of ideas on I have on why submissions have become lost as a finisher, or a way to end a match. It's something that you said in your post. It's a false finish, once people begin to get out of submissions the move loses all of it muster.

Excellent point man, I see what you're saying. It's true that if a move is used too many times as STRICTLY a false finish, then that's all it'll become. Wrestling fans aren't quite as dumb as I think Vince and company would sometimes like to believe and we do catch on rather quickly to stuff like that. The sleeper was a great example of this as no one expects that to do anything more than lead into a babyface's comeback.

Gifted Music had a good point too, you brought up some guys I overlooked that have used submissions recently but I really wanna know if you guys think Submission wrestling could get back to the old days, when guys used to specialize in it. Great responses guys, keep it up

 

[Paradox]

I really wanna know if you guys think Submission wrestling could get back to the old days, when guys used to specialize in it.

I don't think it will get back to that point. If your talking about early this decade then maybe, but I don't see it become as big as it use to be. The reason is like I said, many don't see submissions as finishers. It has become a move to wear your opponent down. To then use your finisher to end the match. Not as something that can be use to end the match.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

I think part of the problem is that, quite simply, a LOT of people just don't have the attention span to really appreciate submission wrestling anymore. If there's not some sort of constant movement in the ring, sometimes people just turn the channel. So many people are just fans of high spots nowadays, flashy moves that often do require a good amount of athleticism. Also, if someone does use a submission hold and the other guy doesn't tap in like 5 or 10 seconds, you'll hear someone piss and moan about how boring the match was. I've seen a few posts like that on here since I started contributing to it.

A great point, however, was made by Great Paradox about the false finish. The move generally loses some luster and steam whenever people start getting out of it.

 

[Paradox]

I think part of the problem is that, quite simply, a LOT of people just don't have the attention span to really appreciate submission wrestling anymore. If there's not some sort of constant movement in the ring, sometimes people just turn the channel.

Excellent point. A lot of people really don't appreciate the technical part of wrestling. Not saying anyone on here, but the causal fan does not care for a submission hold. If some isn't going to through a table, or jumping off a ladder it's not entertaining.

 

[CJGV1]

i would like too add that in recent times submission wrestling has probably been damaged by rest holds. would you rather see a rest hold or someone falling off a ladder through a table? thats unfortunate and i have wondered how a submission based ppv would work when hardly any1 uses any major submission moves. has it actually been confirmed the entire ppv is gunna be submission? perhaps it cud just be the main events

 

["Cool Guy" Jensen]

I was always a big fan of submission wrestling, but I wish that WWE would put more effort in it. The only wrestlers who have a submission move as a regular in their repertoire, are Undertaker, John Cena, Chris Jericho, and maybe Big Show. In the past, we've seen C.M. Punk and William Regal use submission moves, but now they don't. This is part of the reason why I miss Chris Benoit so much.

Submission wrestling was actually very popular back in the late 1990's and early 2000's, but now we're lucky if we see a match end in submission once in a few months.

Hopefully, WWE will allow some wrestlers to add submission moves into their arsenal. If Breaking Point will be an all-submission ppv, then you would think that more wrestlers would have submission moves in their arsenal. If not, then this ppv will turn out to be a disaster. I hope that WWE has some major plans for this upcoming Breaking Point ppv.

 

[ksuperman06]

to be honest the real reason that the wwe doesnt use submissions anymore is because they are aware of the long term damages that they cause, the knee injuries, the ankle problems, the head injuries, and because of chris beniot they are putting a stop to it, hench no more anaconda vise, sorry but its a new day and as much as i hate the product they are putting out but its what we have to deal with because they are trying to show they care about their wrestlers health.

 

[Paradox]

to be honest the real reason that the wwe doesnt use submissions anymore is because they are aware of the long term damages that they cause, the knee injuries, the ankle problems, the head injuries, and because of chris beniot they are putting a stop to it, hench no more anaconda vise, sorry but its a new day and as much as i hate the product they are putting out but its what we have to deal with because they are trying to show they care about their wrestlers health.

First do you know what a period is?

Yeah, I'm sure having Jeff Hardy and Edge put on a ladder match were they fall from 15 feet through another ladder isn't damaging at all. Or better yet having Undertaker do a suicide dive over the top rope and nearly kill himself isn't damaging. Listen there are a lot more matches and moves that can be damaging then a submission hold or match. See Mick Foley's HIAC matches. So to say that submissions aren't used anymore because there to damaging is crap.

What the heck does Beniot's death have to do with the use of submissions? Let me ask you a question, when did Triple h or Shawn Michaels ever use a crossface? Never. They started using it after his death. So the use of submissions has nothing to do with Benoit's death.

The reason the product is today is because they are trying to make it more family friendly. If they were trying to make it safer. Then you wouldn't see Money in the Bank Ladder matches. A match in which guys are jumping of ladder to the floor, or being thrown off them. If they were trying to make it safer. You wouldn't see John Cena being Chokeslammed through a spotlight. It's wrestling, a serious injury can happen from the simplest moves. Look Cena tore his pectoral muscle from a hip toss. It's not the safest thing to be involved in. So that's ridiculous.

 

[FromTheSouth]

The lack of submission wrestling can be tied to the new wave of finishers. Finishing moves used to be set up all match long. The British Bulldog's finisher was a powerslam, and previous to this move, all of his offense centered around his picking people up and throwing them down, on their backs and necks, to soften them up for the end.

Today's finishers are all sudden. Wrestlers are taught to do some rudimentary gymnastics or some punches and kicks for a few minutes, then bring it home with a big finish out of a comeback. There is no need for set up in today's style.

Submissions require set up all match long. Ric Flair was one of the last guys to spend the whole match working a body part to end it his way. In the era of stunners, RKOs, Spears, and punches, there is no need for set up. Set up has been replaced with false finishes that, while exciting, get in the way of psychology sometimes.

The lack of submissions shows an overall change in the philosophy of how to build a match. Even submissions these days come out of nowhere, i.e. the STFU. If John Cena would spend some time working the knees, or the announcers would mention how that weird side powerbomb thing softens the back, it would help, but the true necessity is a return to psychology.

 

[Watsonation]

i think submissions are ok for some wrestlers, but not all. could you imagine mysterio beating cena at wrestlemania with a crossface? lol i think the WWE is moving to faster paced wrestling, unlike the old days where submissions lasted 8 minutes long and everyone went to sleep lol. thats just my opinion. sorry if you don't agree

 

[TheGreat1Lives]

well i always finish my matches with submissions in svr games so i can watch a match like that as long as its not a headlock for 10 minutes.i think cena and orton did that at summerslam one year (feel free to correct me)

 

[avi01]

to be honest the real reason that the wwe doesnt use submissions anymore is because they are aware of the long term damages that they cause, the knee injuries, the ankle problems, the head injuries, and because of chris beniot they are putting a stop to it, hench no more anaconda vise, sorry but its a new day and as much as i hate the product they are putting out but its what we have to deal with because they are trying to show they care about their wrestlers health.

Cause the Ankle is really in pain during an ankle lock??? Neck really hurting during crippler crossface? Man, you need a reality check.
And Benoit, had brain damage and submissions had nothing to do with it. Headbutt maybe , submissions no! It`s actually safer to be through the most vicious submission than to make some flying move off the top rope.

 

[TimAH]

Since most submissions are clean victories I think the lack of submissions plays into the lack of clean victories in general. Most matches (save for a select few wrestlers) are designed so that both wrestlers look as strong as possible. Submissions have been made to look weak and therefore a submission loss makes a wrestlers look like hes not a real threat.
Maybe with MMA getting popular with wrestling fans people will begin to accept them as legit threats again. The sleeper hold for example is a very quick way to end an MMA match. Obviously we dont want to get to a point where it ends a match as quickly as it would in the real world, but it should be seen as a legit threat to end one.

 

[ECW Dan Selby]

Given how many times it has been mentioned during this topic, is anyone else a little bit tired of people leeching off the Sharpshooter? I think valid points have been made here in the sense that yes, there isn't enough submission wrestling in WWE, and more importantly, not enough submission moves being used as finishers. So why when a submission is used, does it have to be a Sharpshooter?

I think it needs to be put to rest a bit..

Selby

 

[Chris in SC]

Since most submissions are clean victories I think the lack of submissions plays into the lack of clean victories in general. Most matches (save for a select few wrestlers) are designed so that both wrestlers look as strong as possible.

This has alot to do with it. Guys above the mid-card don't lose clean as often as they used to, especially faces.

Also, the casual fan (80+% of the audience) has been spoiled by very high-paced matches and big spots. They don't want to see the long setups and struggles that make a good submission match.

There's a reason why Jeff Hardy and Rey Mysterio get some of the biggest pops in the arena. People have ultra-short attention spans now and need to be consistenly wowed.

It's alot like how the NFL has so tweaked the rules to make sure that QB's can complete 40-yard bombs and scores are 34-28 rather than 7-3 in a defensive battle.

 

[That'sVintageMichaelCole]

I really want Jericho to bring back the Old School Liontamer, with the high angle and the knee in the opponents neck, which looked super painful.

When Benoit was in the Brock Lock, it was probably the most painful looking thing I remember seeing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekh5tuwEV4Q

As some1 already said, Jack Swagger could use this well, tho his Gutwrench Powerbomb is pretty good. Anyone else who could use it?

Also would like Punk to use the Anaconda Vice again, looked really good. If he makes a heel turn, it could be used to make it obvious he has changed. Flimsy I know, but meh. I just want to see it again

Lastly, I think MVP would be a good candidate for a new submission finisher, as the playmaker is a bit rubbish. I remember him saying that he did know a lot of wrestling moves (He watched a lot of old European wrestling) but as he was a heel at the time, he couldn't outwrestle the faces (WTF?). Maybe now he is a face, he could break out the good stuff.

 

[Pubby Pub]

Since Koslov is on ECW now they could push him as a submission wrestler since he is really versed and looked legit in his intial push.

Giving him the Brock Lock and refering to it as "The Communist Curve" or something related to the blade of the sickle. It would be more effective than a headbut or Scorpion Death Drop.