Are simple submission holds more believable than complex ones?

[DarksideEric]

I've been a big fan of submission style wrestling for as long as I can remember, and I became an even bigger fan when I discovered MMA and my old roommate taught me a bit of Aikido.

Two me, submissions are generally divided up into two categories: simple and complex.

A "simple" submission is something like a rear naked choke (Sleeper Hold), Armbar (Alberto Del Rio) or Ankle Lock. Something that is easy to apply, but in the pro-wrestling world (to me) since they need to protect each other they don't come off as... painful (perhaps because I know the nuances such as ADR is not lifting his hips to hyper extend the elbow, etc).

"Complex" submissions are well... the opposite, something like a Sharpshooter, a Figure Four, a Yes! Lock. Something that requires far more prep to actually apply (and most likely could *not* be applied unless your opponent let you put it on them), always look like it actually hurts more (but may not at all in some cases).

So, question is, do you feel simpler submissions are more believable (especially since they may be easier to sell) or are the complex ones that take a bit more prep more believable?

EDIT: Damn, thought this was General thread not Old School. Can it be moved if it belongs there instead of here?

 

[justtxyank]

Simple ones are more believable in the strictest sense of the word, but they've been so heavily devalued over the years in wrestling.

Not all of the complex ones are ridiculous though. The Sharpshooter in particular really requires your opponent to help sell the setup. If he acts cartoonish or you take too long to spin, it looks way too fake. The figure four is definitely believable as it can be slapped on rather quickly if done right.

To me the best hybrid is the Texas Cloverleaf. It's not that hard to apply and actually does hurt.

 

[Slash-LN]

I guess it really depends on the move.
My friends and I used to have "grapple" matches where the only way to win was to make the other person tap out. I could easily apply a rear naked choke and was usually what I used to win my matches. It was easy and effective. A few times I applied a triangle choke which was much more difficult to secure but it worked very well.

On the flip side of that when I was a kid a friend and I would mimic wrestling moves and for some reason when I put him in the Boston crab it made him laugh incredibly hard. Even when I applied full pressure he would just laugh. That kind of killed that move for me. It was hard to believe that an adult with big muscles like a wrestler would be in so much pain from a move that would make a 7 or 8 year old laugh so hard. It's an easy move to apply but it seems less painful than a choke hold because of the experience I had with it.

In my experience with our matches that I mentioned above the ankle lock was one of the easiest moves to put on but no one ever tapped out to it and it was a lot easier to get out of so it didn't seem as severe as something that was harder to put on like the triangle choke. A full nelson was surprisingly hard to actually apply and lock your fingers and was incredibly hard to get out of but I think they often come across as pretty easy to apply in the wrestling world.

 

[tvcolosi]

I don't think its the simplicity more than it is the amount of times you see it, do they allow it to finish matches, do they get it over...

Samoa Joe got over basically a sleeper... But everyone does a sleeper, he gave it a name, slightly modified it and added in the leg scissors... Dolph was starting to get the sleeper over a few years back, then they had him stop.

Swagger, Shamrock and Angle got the ankle lock over based on their legit backround

AJ Styles was starting to get that calf killer over but then he stopped finishing matched with it.... I think Magnus is doing good with the Cloverleaf, outside of Shemus ever now and then using it I can't remember it being used since Malenko...

I think who and what move play into it as well....

Anything Brock puts on looks devastating, that why I love the simplicity of the Kimoura, Daniel Bryan doing that move wouldn't look as believable... on the flip, smaller guys like Punk and DB using moves like the Labell and the Vice look realistic

 

[TheGrimReaper]

I've put on the Figure-Four leg lock plenty of times, and had put on me enough times to say that whether you do it correctly or do it wrongly, it legitimately hurts, not a constant pain, but a pain where every time you move it hurts.

Submission moves in general look plenty believable to me, it's only a few like the Sharpshooter that I've never understood why it would hurt, sure it's hard to get out of, but other than that...

In My honest opinion, Complex moves are more believable.

 

[justtxyank]

I've put on the Figure-Four leg lock plenty of times, and had put on me enough times to say that whether you do it correctly or do it wrongly, it legitimately hurts, not a constant pain, but a pain where every time you move it hurts.

Submission moves in general look plenty believable to me, it's only a few like the Sharpshooter that I've never understood why it would hurt, sure it's hard to get out of, but other than that...

In My honest opinion, Complex moves are more believable.

The sharpshooter hurts your back. It's sold incorrectly on television as being a leg lock. If applied correctly it will put incredible pressure on your back and legit hurts.

The problem with the sharpshooter is you'd either have to be unconscious or stupid to let someone do the leg wrap part. Thats why the cloverleaf is a better version.

But yeah, the figure four hurts the knees for real. Especially if you have issues with your knees tendons already.