I probably should elaborate.
If you were just making a statement to an actual gay person, then you would be right. If you were saying it to insult someone, then you'd be wrong.
You Disappoint Me, Razor.
- Thread starter ZeroVX
- Start date
I probably should elaborate.
If you were just making a statement to an actual gay person, then you would be right. If you were saying it to insult someone, then you'd be wrong.
And what if I said it to someone who was happy?
More importantly, what are the two sides in the debate, because you are not making that very clear.
The gay = happy thing is a different story altogether. You'd probably have to explain what you mean, since very few people use the term gay to describe happy these days.
Razor said that racist words are always racist regardless of context. I'm trying to tell him that that's not true.
I am embarrassed to admit that I haven't seen that movie yet.
Muffin Top Merkley
Be a man!
Probably not.
The connotation of a word is what I'm arguing.
Saying what Racist Jonnie said is a racial epithet that doesn't have a different connotation. There is no other, just like if I were to use the ones for Jews, Arabs, or White people. It doesn't matter if I say it with a smile and a hug, it still holds the same implied meaning.
I never said that other phrases in the English language hold to this mold. But going around calling Japanese people by their 50 year old "nickname" from World War II is still insulting. It still holds that old connotation. Just as any form of the "n-word" or anything else.
Learn to read my arguments, will ya?
I have read your argument. My argument is that any term, racist or not, can have different effects on people depending on the context of the conversation. You personally might have trouble saying one of these words without someone being insulted, but that's not always the case.
Granted, definition and context are not the same thing, but context can hold sway over whether or not the definition matters at all in a conversation. If you were close with someone of a different race than your own, they may allow you to use words like that without any consequences, and depending on how you use the words, they may or may not be insulted. The words themselves aren't insulting, the context can be.
Kenny Powers
Bulletproof Tiger
Even if you aren't trying to insult your friends or whoever, I don't think it's appropriate to use racial slurs on any occasion. It's like Randall in Clerks 2 calling himself a porch monkey. Not offensive in his mind but offensive to others. Words like that along with the n word, f word for gay people and other racial slurs against other races are derogatory for a reason.
It doesn't make it right to call your white friend a spick, ***, or kike just because he isn't Mexican, Homosexual, or Jewish. If I had a pet monkey that lived on my porch I wouldn't call it a porch monkey. Just because you don't think of a pet monkey on a porch when you think of that term. It's a racial term for black people. Just like it would be wrong to sell rabbits from the jungle and cal them jungle bunnies. The words are offensive no matter how you use them.
Muffin Top Merkley
Be a man!
This has become a conversation for the Cigar Lounge.
But the words are still insulting and demeaning.
Your friend might let you use a certain word or phrase, but if you say it to someone else, even in the same context with zero malice, I’m willing to bet that there will be a different outcome.
The same applies for if you say to your friend “Hey, [insert any racist or derogatory word/phase here], How’s life?”. You may be allowed to get away with it, but I, being a complete stranger who over heard your converstation, can’t approach that same person and repeat your exact greeting even if I’m just trying to introduce myself.
Just because someone gives you permission or doesn't care if it is used, doesn't mean it holds no value to someone else.
But the words are still insulting and demeaning.
Your friend might let you use a certain word or phrase, but if you say it to someone else, even in the same context with zero malice, I’m willing to bet that there will be a different outcome.
The same applies for if you say to your friend “Hey, [insert any racist or derogatory word/phase here], How’s life?”. You may be allowed to get away with it, but I, being a complete stranger who over heard your converstation, can’t approach that same person and repeat your exact greeting even if I’m just trying to introduce myself.
Just because someone gives you permission or doesn't care if it is used, doesn't mean it holds no value to someone else.
That's more due to misinterpretation than anything else. And it's also due to the fact that very few people in charge of the media and such understand what I've said about context, or simply ignore it. They believe that the word itself is always insulting, and as such, have ingrained it into society's head that these words are always, always wrong. That's part of the reason people are still insulted by racist words today. Obviously the other part being due to actual racism, but that's neither here nor there.
It's the same issue when it comes to curse words. Society follows the belief that words like shit, fuck, dick and cunt are harsh, insulting words. And like racial terms, they can be, in the proper context. Other times, though, they're merely used to describe objects, body parts, or acts. Like Doc said, there's a difference between saying "Fuck you" and "I want to fuck you".
Obviously people can still be insulted when these words are used. But that's partially due to society and the media, as I've said.
Muffin Top Merkley
Be a man!
Use a racist term in ANY positive context and this debate/conversation would be put to bed. You can't.
Word's like 'Fuck' can be used a a noun, verb, adjective. Fuck by itself, is negative. Walk up to anyone and just say "Fuck". Its the words that accompany it that determine its context and true intention.
A racial slur has only one meaning, and thats a negative one. There is no combination of words that can be added of removed to spin a positive light on it.
Its not the media that makes us believe its bad, its the redneck assholes that use it to create hate. Racial slurs where used well before the media got a hold of it.
If anything, the media is used to remind and reenforce to us that it is bad and should not be said.
Pepe Silvia
Occasional Pre-Show
THIS HERE WHAT YOU CALL ABOMINATION!!
Pepe Silvia
Occasional Pre-Show
Via Armbar
Has a pretty good dick.
Just because some may find it offenensive and some may not, doesn't mean the word is okay. The fact that it's offensive to ANYONE should be enough to know it's unexceptable to say. There's plenty of workds that mean different things to different people, you should be right enough of mind to be able to seperate when something is or is not appropriate whether than hoping/assuming whoever is in ear shot won't be offended.
The only way language as a method of relaying thoughts and ideas works is if we are all, by and large, on the same page with the meaning of the words we all choose to use. Granted there is an ebb and flow to language and there will always be the flux of Prescriptive VS. Descriptive language usage, but words mean what they mean based on majority .
So the fact that there is still overwhelming resistance --as exemplified in this very thread-- to the idea that a racial slur has anything but negative connotations stands to embolden the fact that it's use isn't tolerable to the majority and therefore it's intent as hate speak hasn't changed enough to be seen differently. Were no one complaining, then via general majority acceptance, the word would be usable in all contexts. If anything, a slur that can be somewhat seen to be acceptable in very specific and very unique/limited situations seems more to favor an idea of allowed transgressive exception --not 'acception'-- rather than common acceptable use rule. Basically, if the word was cool to use, we wouldn't be arguing as much as we are, and most would side with it's acceptable usage rather than against it... and yet here we are.
If I were to use a racial slur/epithet in the company of my friends who allow me to do so it's not the word's inherit context or meaning that is the changing factor but rather the dynamic and situation with which it was applied. That point is generally understood. Where I think the confusion lies is the understanding of language usage in context:
I'll use basic a formula as and example to make it clear. Look at the unique formulation of:
("Racial slur" + "me the speaker") + "listener who allows me leniency in use of said slur" = "acceptable use"
Granted "acceptable use" is the outcome but in no way does the actual word become any less of a slur/epithet or example of hate speak. In another formula we see a different outcome:
(Racial Slur + Speaker) + listener who does not allow leniency of use = unacceptable and consequently racist speech
The variables will always be the speaker 'x' and the listener 'y'... I agree that in there, there can be change, but the constant will always be the 'slur'. Therefore as it is the slur that never changes, you're wrong ZeroXV in as much as you stated
Now granted the slur can change when majority usage and understanding changes but honestly it's rare, if not impossible, for hate speech to change to acceptable language as defined and understood by the majority via descriptive use changes.
So the fact that there is still overwhelming resistance --as exemplified in this very thread-- to the idea that a racial slur has anything but negative connotations stands to embolden the fact that it's use isn't tolerable to the majority and therefore it's intent as hate speak hasn't changed enough to be seen differently. Were no one complaining, then via general majority acceptance, the word would be usable in all contexts. If anything, a slur that can be somewhat seen to be acceptable in very specific and very unique/limited situations seems more to favor an idea of allowed transgressive exception --not 'acception'-- rather than common acceptable use rule. Basically, if the word was cool to use, we wouldn't be arguing as much as we are, and most would side with it's acceptable usage rather than against it... and yet here we are.
If I were to use a racial slur/epithet in the company of my friends who allow me to do so it's not the word's inherit context or meaning that is the changing factor but rather the dynamic and situation with which it was applied. That point is generally understood. Where I think the confusion lies is the understanding of language usage in context:
I'll use basic a formula as and example to make it clear. Look at the unique formulation of:
("Racial slur" + "me the speaker") + "listener who allows me leniency in use of said slur" = "acceptable use"
Granted "acceptable use" is the outcome but in no way does the actual word become any less of a slur/epithet or example of hate speak. In another formula we see a different outcome:
(Racial Slur + Speaker) + listener who does not allow leniency of use = unacceptable and consequently racist speech
The variables will always be the speaker 'x' and the listener 'y'... I agree that in there, there can be change, but the constant will always be the 'slur'. Therefore as it is the slur that never changes, you're wrong ZeroXV in as much as you stated
ZeroVX said:
Now granted the slur can change when majority usage and understanding changes but honestly it's rare, if not impossible, for hate speech to change to acceptable language as defined and understood by the majority via descriptive use changes.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
But, racist words are different.
What the kike?
I'm going to kike you.
That doesn't work. Racist words aren't versatile, curse words are. Big difference.
*I am a Jew, so I believe I am allowed to say kike in order to get my meaning across.
Anti-Semitic. Bant.
FromTheSouth
You don't want it with me.
Impersonating a mod: IP ban.
This argument is still going? Over the use of the n-word? Come on. Easy way to resolve. Don't use it. Fourm policy. You wanna be stupid in public go use it in public. See how far you go without an ass whoppin'.
All of this bullshit because you contradicted yourself in your own post against me. Not my fault you're a dumbass who can't even keep your own thoughts, you know, in favor of your own argument.
FTS, my tag partner yo, has the idea. Racist words have the same context in any way you use them. I'm not speaking of "Lulz, fuck has 5 meanings." I mean racial slurs. You know what those are. You can't use the n-word for anything but it's one meaning. I'd love you to say "I'm gonna (n-word) you." Please. You'd get stabbed because it's not okay to say such words.
Oh yeah, I didn't even read your post. Once I realized that it didn't have anything but you being a fuck up and trying to explain your racism I skipped ahead.
If you guys really want to be disappointed, consider the fact that I am hella behind in my novel. I should be done. But I'm no where near done. Spring Break has foiled my plots once again.
Pepe Silvia
Occasional Pre-Show
This thread's title still pisses me off. Someone should rename it to BAWWWWW or something.
Razor doesn't disappoint. Fuck you,
Bitch straightened me out on this forum, I'll defend him to the graaaaave
Razor doesn't disappoint. Fuck you,
Bitch straightened me out on this forum, I'll defend him to the graaaaave
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