"You can't wrestle!!"

[Mac Attack]

I think everyone should relax a bit. There will always be those who feel that this chant is necessary and then there are those who say its obnoxious. Whatever people feel does it really matter in the end? I'm suprised pro wrestling has people involved in a chant debate. Personally I feel some people are taking the statement to literal however I understand the point that it is a general rude statement to make at someone in a wrestling ring who is wrestling. The truth is not every casual fan is as excited for the bigger guys and it is only natural that they start comparing guys like Big Show to the spot monkeys. Really it all comes down to personal preference and what you truly believe is what is appropriate to say. "Haters going to hate." The truth is wrestling will never please everyone and so all it comes down to is a clash of opinions which this is.

 

[Slyfox696]

Did you just agree then disagree w/me at the same time? You posted that any1 w/knowledge of wrestling knows that having the ability to connect w/the audience & make them care about you is what makes a person a good pro wrestler. I said Hogan & Cena are successful in wrestling because of that exact same reason. So how was my pervious statement false?

Because Cena and Hogan ARE good wrestlers, and the fact people connect with them prove it. You tried to establish a disconnect between wrestling and connecting with the audience, and that is plain false.

And as far as their in-ring work go, both Hogan and Cena are incredible workers.

Okay this comment is funny so John Cena gets the "you can't wrestle chants" not because his matches are predictable most times but because he has big muscles, good morals, & values. What does any of that have to do w/what he does inside the ring?

Absolutely nothing, and that's my point. People are fucking clueless when it comes to what makes a good wrestler. The same people who bash John Cena cheered him before he won the WWE title at WM 21. And John Cena is a MUCH better worker now than he was then.

You're right, the reason they chant "you can't wrestle" has nothing to do with what he does in the ring. It's because he has big muscles, promotes good values and morals and feuded with IWC favorites Jericho and Angle after getting the title.

If people just chanted "you can't wrestle" to Cena for being muscular then why the hell hasn't HHH, The Rock, Scott Steiner, Booker T, & a few others w/big muscles never got the same treatment.

For many reasons, but they ALL have taken their abuse from the uneducated. People STILL bash Triple H, and have done so for over a decade. The Rock was constantly hammered with "Die Rocky die" chants when he broke into the business. Scott Steiner started his career much smaller and worked more of a technical match, but now that he has big muscles, people think he sucks when he still is more entertaining than a lot of guys in the business. Booker T has never been a guy with abnormally large muscles, but then again, he's also never been a superstar either.

There morals & values are not much different from his when they all are faces so can you explain why John receives these chants for those reason, but the others I mention have not.

Say what? Since Hulk Hogan, how many other wrestlers have come out to promote good morals and values, doing things the right way, getting by on hard work and respect, etc. Who? Give me names. Hell, Bret Hart did back in '97 and American fans turned on him and made him heel.

Teenagers are morons, at least in the wrestling world. They think to be cool you have to be rebellious, and a guy who promotes good honest values doesn't fit their definition of cool.

Now I do agree that he also got the chants & the boos because of his victories over Angle & Y2J, but thats because those guys are more gifted in the ring then Cena & I some fans didn't feel like he could really get a win over those guys w/the arsenal he displayed in the ring.

And yet, BOTH of those guys have gone on record to say how good of a worker John Cena is.

And by the way, Cena has been a FAR better worker than Angle has been over the last 5 years. And it's not even close.

 

[The Mighty Tiger]

Because Cena and Hogan ARE good wrestlers, and the fact people connect with them prove it. You tried to establish a disconnect between wrestling and connecting with the audience, and that is plain false.

Hogan & Cena are successful wrestlers, but that doesn't mean they are excellent in ring performers. They do good w/what they use, but they both are not great in the ring. Cena & Hogan got over because of there mic work, they both have a high level of charisma. Now if they had the same personality of lets say RVD, Ted Dibiase jr, or Bryan Danielson, & display the same in ring skills that they have then neither one of them would be as successful. Basically my point is you don't have to be a great in ring performer to be a successful wrestler.

And as far as their in-ring work go, both Hogan and Cena are incredible workers.

I don't agree I feel they are average workers, & there in ring abilities can't stack up to the likes of Ric Flair, HBK, Bret Hart, or Kurt Angle.

Absolutely nothing, and that's my point. People are fucking clueless when it comes to what makes a good wrestler. The same people who bash John Cena cheered him before he won the WWE title at WM 21. And John Cena is a MUCH better worker now than he was then.

Well yeah if he gets the chants because of something that has nothing to do w/his in ring work then that is dump as hell. As far as the ppl that turned on him go I believe the reason for the backlash was because ppl didn't feel like John was that good to be put in the top spot. They felt like he was on his way to being good, but I don't think they expected him to be given the top spot so fast & some just didn't agree w/that decision. I wouldn't say he is a much better worker now then at that time, to me he is about the same.

For many reasons, but they ALL have taken their abuse from the uneducated. People STILL bash Triple H, and have done so for over a decade. The Rock was constantly hammered with "Die Rocky die" chants when he broke into the business. Scott Steiner started his career much smaller and worked more of a technical match, but now that he has big muscles, people think he sucks when he still is more entertaining than a lot of guys in the business. Booker T has never been a guy with abnormally large muscles, but then again, he's also never been a superstar either

.

I Agree.

Say what? Since Hulk Hogan, how many other wrestlers have come out to promote good morals and values, doing things the right way, getting by on hard work and respect, etc. Who? Give me names. Hell, Bret Hart did back in '97 and American fans turned on him and made him heel.

Well to be foreal no one has really promoted good homesome values like Hogan has, not even Cena has done it like Hogan, but what I meant was that the guys I mentioned represented some positive qualities when they where good. They where nothing like how Hogan was or how Cena is today but they did have a few qualities that could be looked at as good when they was faces.

Teenagers are morons, at least in the wrestling world. They think to be cool you have to be rebellious, and a guy who promotes good honest values doesn't fit their definition of cool.

Well I didn't think like that when I was at the age, but your right majority of teens brains do function backwards.

And by the way, Cena has been a FAR better worker than Angle has been over the last 5 years. And it's not even close.[/

QUOTE]

That was funny, never is John a better worker in the ring then Kurt Angle. You may be able to do standup w/jokes like that.

 

[Slyfox696]

Hogan & Cena are successful wrestlers, but that doesn't mean they are excellent in ring performers.

But they are excellent in-ring performers.

They do good w/what they use, but they both are not great in the ring.

Yes, they are. The fact we are in 2011 and people still believe otherwise amazes me.

Now if they had the same personality of lets say RVD, Ted Dibiase jr, or Bryan Danielson, & display the same in ring skills that they have then neither one of them would be as successful. Basically my point is you don't have to be a great in ring performer to be a successful wrestler.

You don't have to be, but they are. How can you argue otherwise when their matches are cared about by more fans than anyone else?

I don't agree I feel they are average workers, & there in ring abilities can't stack up to the likes of Ric Flair, HBK, Bret Hart, or Kurt Angle.

Now you're just being silly.

Well yeah if he gets the chants because of something that has nothing to do w/his in ring work then that is dump as hell.

At least we agree on one thing.

As far as the ppl that turned on him go I believe the reason for the backlash was because ppl didn't feel like John was that good to be put in the top spot.

THEY were the ones who put him there. How do you not understand this? The same people who cheered him wildly suddenly started to dislike him. Why? Because he no longer swore and cut people down on the mic, he started promoting good morals and values, and because he feuded with IWC darlings Jericho and Angle.

I wouldn't say he is a much better worker now then at that time, to me he is about the same.

Then your knowledge and understanding of pro wrestling is a joke, and you need to spend some time learning about wrestling before you post with me again.

Well to be foreal no one has really promoted good homesome values like Hogan has, not even Cena has done it like Hogan, but what I meant was that the guys I mentioned represented some positive qualities when they where good. They where nothing like how Hogan was or how Cena is today

Which was my point, which defeats your point. Thank you.

Well I didn't think like that when I was at the age, but your right majority of teens brains do function backwards.

Indeed.

That was funny, never is John a better worker in the ring then Kurt Angle. You may be able to do standup w/jokes like that.

You're joking right? Angle has no concept of in-ring psychology, his selling is mediocre and spotting, and he's proven to be a mediocre draw which means people don't care about his wrestling enough to want to pay and watch him.

John Cena has been a far better worker in the last 5 years than Angle has.

 

[The Mighty Tiger]

But they are excellent in-ring performers.

There just average in my book, excellent is just to strong of a word to use when describing Hogan & Cena's in ring abilities. We are just going to have to agree to disagree when talking about how good we feel they are in the ring.

You don't have to be, but they are. How can you argue otherwise when their matches are cared about by more fans than anyone else?

There matches are cared about more than others is because they are good at storytelling, they have the great ability to make there feuds seem larger than life. They are very good at selling the hype for there matchups.

THEY were the ones who put him there. How do you not understand this? The same people who cheered him wildly suddenly started to dislike him. Why? Because he no longer swore and cut people down on the mic, he started promoting good morals and values, and because he feuded with IWC darlings Jericho and Angle.

No I understand that the fans was behind him, which made Vince obviously feel more comfortable to pull the trigger on a massive push for the guy, but I don't believe the fans that once supported him felt like he was worthy of such a push. Its like this the fans liked the guy, but not as a replacement for The Rock or Stonecold. People felt that there where others more suited for that role & the superstars they felt should have got the roll was the same people John bashed in matches.

All the top superstars that always gave Stonecold & Rock a run for there money, was booked almost as nothing more then footnotes when up against John Cena. They booked the guy to be just to damn good & some fans wasn't feeling it cause they didn't & still don't feel like he stacks up. On top of that Vince waterdowns his character which was insult to injury, plus the simple fact that he is the only superstar where the fans opinion of him never changed the direction in which they use him really pisses fans off. Oh & I don't think his morals has anything to do w/the backlash because he has always promoted the same morals of hustle loyalty & respect, but I do agree about the other reasons you stated.

Then your knowledge and understanding of pro wrestling is a joke, and you need to spend some time learning about wrestling before you post with me again.

My knowledge & understanding of pro wrestling is fine, seems to me we just have a different opinion on what is improvement. John Cena has been on cruise control as for as improvement goes as a in ring worker.

You're joking right? Angle has no concept of in-ring psychology, his selling is mediocre and spotting, and he's proven to be a mediocre draw which means people don't care about his wrestling enough to want to pay and watch him.

LOL you just describe John Cena, not Kurt Angle. Now Cena does have Angle in drawing power, but that isn't a fair comparison Angle is apart of a smaller company now. If it was John that left & Angle would have stayed then the bigger draw would be Angle cause John wouldnt be able to draw the same amout of people he does in the WWE at TNA.

John Cena has been a far better worker in the last 5 years than Angle has.[/

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject also.

 

[Slyfox696]

There just average in my book, excellent is just to strong of a word to use when describing Hogan & Cena's in ring abilities. We are just going to have to agree to disagree when talking about how good we feel they are in the ring.

We can agree to disagree, but I'm right and you're wrong.

There matches are cared about more than others is because they are good at storytelling, they have the great ability to make there feuds seem larger than life. They are very good at selling the hype for there matchups.

Exactly. What in the hell is your definition of a good wrestler then?

You agree they have great charisma, you agree they are great storytellers, to be a good storyteller you have to be a good in-ring psychologist and a good seller, and if the people are into your matches, you're obviously doing a great job working the crowd...what in the hell is your definition of a good wrestler?

No I understand that the fans was behind him, which made Vince obviously feel more comfortable to pull the trigger on a massive push for the guy, but I don't believe the fans that once supported him felt like he was worthy of such a push.

And Cena has MORE than proven those fans wrong, which only furthers my point about those fans being morons.

All the top superstars that always gave Stonecold & Rock a run for there money, was booked almost as nothing more then footnotes when up against John Cena. They booked the guy to be just to damn good & some fans wasn't feeling it cause they didn't & still don't feel like he stacks up. On top of that Vince waterdowns his character which was insult to injury, plus the simple fact that he is the only superstar where the fans opinion of him never changed the direction in which they use him really pisses fans off. Oh & I don't think his morals has anything to do w/the backlash because he has always promoted the same morals of hustle loyalty & respect, but I do agree about the other reasons you stated.

So you agree with big muscles and going against IWC favorites. So I've got you to agree with that.

Now let's talk about the morals and values part. If you've been a part of the IWC for any length of time, one of the constant "criticisms" (why it's a criticism, I don't know, but IWC likes to make it one) of Cena is that he appeals to kids. Now exactly what part of his character appeals to children? Perhaps the part where he rarely says swear words, and encourages good morals and values? Yes?

My knowledge & understanding of pro wrestling is fine, seems to me we just have a different opinion on what is improvement. John Cena has been on cruise control as for as improvement goes as a in ring worker.

Well, considering I don't understand exactly what you consider to be good in-ring skills, considering you've already agreed Hogan and Cena are good at all the skills which make up a good wrestler, then perhaps we do have a different opinion.

Why don't you share yours?

LOL you just describe John Cena, not Kurt Angle. Now Cena does have Angle in drawing power, but that isn't a fair comparison Angle is apart of a smaller company now. If it was John that left & Angle would have stayed then the bigger draw would be Angle cause John wouldnt be able to draw the same amout of people he does in the WWE at TNA.

No...just no.

First of all, Angle was never a draw in the WWE either. Was he better than Random Jobber A? Well sure, but he never drew like Cena or Triple H or even Batista. Angle was a second rate main-eventer.

And how can you say Angle has good in-ring psychology? He wrestles the same match whether he's face or heel, and his selling is more comical than believable. On the other side, John Cena has demonstrated many times great ring psychology (for example, his heelish type of face tactics at ONS 06, or his match with Triple H at WM 22 when compared to his match just last Monday against Alex Riley) and Cena's selling is so believable people in the audience always think he's going to be beaten, even when he goes a full year as WWE Champion. And let's not even start with the number of people John Cena has made into believable main-eventers compared to Angle.

Cena is a far better worker than Angle, and has been for a long time.

 

[Davi323]

I think a lot of people bitching about Cena not being a good wrestler are simply not getting what professional wrestling is all about. You are confusing the skillset required to be a good amateur wrestler with that of being a good pro wrestler, and those skills are quite different from each other. Basically, you want to define being a "good wrestler" strictly using the amateur definition, and then falsely applying it to the professional world. But, you can't. Pro wrestling doesn't work like that. Kurt Angle is a great wrestler, using the amateur definition. But as a pro wrestler, I agree with Sly. He is a second tier main eventer, not a true bonafide one. Why? Because pro wrestling is about more than pure skill. It's about presentation, ring psychology, mic skills, charisma, storytelling. While John Cena doesn't have the same mat ability that Angle has, he kicks Angle's ass in some of the other aspects of being a pro.

Let me use football to illustrate my point. Using the strict skill definition, the same that you want to apply to the world of pro wrestling, any QB that doesn't have that picture perfect spiral, perfect technique, isn't a good QB. You are only concerned about their physical skill, afterall. Yet, if that is all they can do, they don't make it in the NFL. We have seen a lot of purely technical passers SUCK. Why? Because everybody knows that being a QB in the NFL is about a lot more than just your raw ability to throw a football. You have to know how to read defenses, check down, sense the defenders coming, making smart decisions, being a team leader, etc. Joe Montana couldn't throw a football worth a damn, using the same model for our QB definition as you apply to pro wrestlers. Joe Montana had a limited arm, imperfect throwing technique, couldn't scramble at all. Physically, Joe Montana isn't a good QB at all. But, he is probably the greatest QB that has ever lived, because while his technical abilities were sometimes deficient, Joe Montana was always the smartest QB on the field, he always kept his cool, excelled at leadership, and had a firm grasp of what he could and couldn't do out there. Same with Tom Brady. Brady really isn't all that great of a pure passer either. But, like Montana, he excels at all the other stuff. Two imperfect QBs with multiple Super Bowl rings and hall of fame careers.

That is why all of you who think John Cena isn't a "good wrestler" are wrong. You are using the wrong definition for the standards of being a pro. Maybe you missed out on this, but pro wrestling is staged. The outcomes of matches are predetermined. Actual ring ability, in and of itself, devoid of the other aspects that make a professional wrestler successful, is completely meaningless in such a setting. You could be the best pure wrestler that ever lived, but if you are boring and the fans don't give a shit about you, your career will be short. Conversely, if you aren't the best mat grappler, but you bring other things to the table that the audience can connect with, you will have a long career. John Cena brings a host of other things to the table.

Essentially, you are simply using a definition that is ill-suited to the world of professional wrestling, because it operates much differently than amateur wrestling does. John Cena is a good/great wrestler in the professional sense of the word, even if he isn't a good wrestler in the amateur sense, because they are simply DIFFERENT.

 

[The Mighty Tiger]

We can agree to disagree, but I'm right and you're wrong.

Lol okay Slyfox696 .

Exactly. What in the hell is your definition of a good wrestler then?

My definition of a good wrestler is someone that not only can sell the story of the feud, but can also put on an exciting unpredictable match to go along w/the feud. John & Hogan can get you invested in the feud this is what there strong at, but once you get to the match this is where they fall short, because if you done seen one of there matches you done seen them all. Now all there matchups are not like this, but most of the time they go by the same blueprint no matter who they are in the ring with.

You agree they have great charisma, you agree they are great storytellers, to be a good storyteller you have to be a good in-ring psychologist and a good seller, and if the people are into your matches, you're obviously doing a great job working the crowd...what in the hell is your definition of a good wrestler?

Being able to sell the hype of the feud or tell the story of the feud through mic work doesn't mean you can put on a exciting match to close out the feud. The reason why I say Cena & Hogan are average in ring performers is because there matches don't always live up to the hype of the feud. A great or excellent wrestler not only has the skill to make you won't to see the match & see where the feud goes, but they also have the skills to make you feel like the match lived up to the hype. You shouldn't feel like oh I could have saved my money for that one after a great wrestlers match.

And Cena has MORE than proven those fans wrong, which only furthers my point about those fans being morons.

How has he really proved the fans wrong?

Now let's talk about the morals and values part. If you've been a part of the IWC for any length of time, one of the constant "criticisms" (why it's a criticism, I don't know, but IWC likes to make it one) of Cena is that he appeals to kids. Now exactly what part of his character appeals to children? Perhaps the part where he rarely says swear words, and encourages good morals and values? Yes?

Yeah I been reading post on here longer then I been signed up to post, & from my understanding people's criticism is not so much the encouraging of good morals & values, but more so the way he carries himself now. His morals have always been the same but he has changed they way he carries himself. He can encourage the same values & morals w/out acting like Ned Flanders because he once did. If wwe wanted him to be more kid friendly thats fine, but they didn't have to waterdown his character as much as they did to the point where most adults don't find him entertaining. There is enough words in the english language where he can cut a promo w/out cussing & still be entertaining to both adults & still be child friendly. He gets the backlash because he is booked as The Terminator in his matches but on the mic he sounds like a host for Sesame Street.

Well, considering I don't understand exactly what you consider to be good in-ring skills, considering you've already agreed Hogan and Cena are good at all the skills which make up a good wrestler, then perhaps we do have a different opinion. Why don't you share yours?

Good In ring skills is having the ability to perform a believable edge on your seat type match. Cena & Hogan are hit & miss when it comes to this. They are overall good wrestlers when you take in the fact that there are more important tools to being successful in the wrestling business, but they have got by w/being only average in the ring.

No...just no.

First of all, Angle was never a draw in the WWE either. Was he better than Random Jobber A? Well sure, but he never drew like Cena or Triple H or even Batista. Angle was a second rate main-eventer.

I don't know how you can say such a thing, do you have access to there individual drawing numbers are something? Cena & Batista would have never been main eventers in the time when Angle was there w/Austin & Rock leading the pack! Cena would have been a midcarder & Batista would have been a jobber or fired.

And how can you say Angle has good in-ring psychology? He wrestles the same match whether he's face or heel, and his selling is more comical than believable.

Angle wrestles the same match face or heel because his character was never really different as a face or a heel. He was always the cocky & arrogant Olympic gold medalist. I can say he has good in ring psychology because everything he did was based off finishing his opponent off w/the Angle Slam & if that didn't do it then he would slap the Ankle Lock on them. Angle would wear his opponents down by simply out wrestling them. He had the ability to control the pace of the match & if you couldn't keep up then you where basically fish food.

On the other side, John Cena has demonstrated many times great ring psychology (for example, his heelish type of face tactics at ONS 06, or his match with Triple H at WM 22 when compared to his match just last Monday against Alex Riley)

John is hit are miss w/his psychology he doesn't go into all his matches w/a set plan on how to defeat his opponent, & his moveset isn't realistically enough to keep his opponents down for a 3 count.

Cena's selling is so believable people in the audience always think he's going to be beaten, even when he goes a full year as WWE Champion.

People believe he is gonna lose most of his matches because he gets his ass beat for majority of all his matches, not to mention he is apart of a era when title runs are not very long so anybody would think he was bound to lose eventually. The way he wins most of his matches are a joke & only a child should believe in such victories. His selling is off because after the match is over he acts like he never was even in the match to begin with. How is he the definition of a excellent in ring performer.

And let's not even start with the number of people John Cena has made into believable main-eventers compared to Angle.

Angle is the one that put John over to begin with, & I would love for you to list a few of these believable main events that John is responsible for helping get over.

Cena is a far better worker than Angle, and has been for a long time.

Wrong.

 

[The Mighty Tiger]

I think a lot of people bitching about Cena not being a good wrestler are simply not getting what professional wrestling is all about.

No I get what professional wrestlings is all about, I'm just not going to give a superstar a higher grand on there in ring skills then what they deserve.

You are confusing the skillset required to be a good amateur wrestler with that of being a good pro wrestler, and those skills are quite different from each other.

I'm not confusing the skillsets, I'm fully aware of the fact that the skillset to be successful at either one is different in many ways, but the overall idea of how you defeat your opponent is the same.

Basically, you want to define being a "good wrestler" strictly using the amateur definition, and then falsely applying it to the professional world. But, you can't. Pro wrestling doesn't work like that. Kurt Angle is a great wrestler, using the amateur definition. But as a pro wrestler, I agree with Sly. He is a second tier main eventer, not a true bonafide one.

I respectfully disagree w/the both of you.

Why? Because pro wrestling is about more than pure skill.

I know that.

It's about presentation, ring psychology, mic skills, charisma, storytelling. While John Cena doesn't have the same mat ability that Angle has, he kicks Angle's ass in some of the other aspects of being a pro.

The only thing that John outdoes Angle in is merchandise sales, but working for the bigger company is the only reason for this.

Let me use football to illustrate my point. Using the strict skill definition, the same that you want to apply to the world of pro wrestling, any QB that doesn't have that picture perfect spiral, perfect technique, isn't a good QB. You are only concerned about their physical skill, afterall. Yet, if that is all they can do, they don't make it in the NFL. We have seen a lot of purely technical passers SUCK. Why? Because everybody knows that being a QB in the NFL is about a lot more than just your raw ability to throw a football. You have to know how to read defenses, check down, sense the defenders coming, making smart decisions, being a team leader, etc. Joe Montana couldn't throw a football worth a damn, using the same model for our QB definition as you apply to pro wrestlers. Joe Montana had a limited arm, imperfect throwing technique, couldn't scramble at all. Physically, Joe Montana isn't a good QB at all. But, he is probably the greatest QB that has ever lived, because while his technical abilities were sometimes deficient, Joe Montana was always the smartest QB on the field, he always kept his cool, excelled at leadership, and had a firm grasp of what he could and couldn't do out there. Same with Tom Brady. Brady really isn't all that great of a pure passer either. But, like Montana, he excels at all the other stuff. Two imperfect QBs with multiple Super Bowl rings and hall of fame careers.

Thanks for the great explanation, but I already know what point you was tryn to make.

That is why all of you who think John Cena isn't a "good wrestler" are wrong.

John Cena is a good wrestler when you factor in all his skills as a whole, but like I told Slyfox696 when the topic is only his in ring skills he is only a average in ring performer. Which is fine because you can be successful in the wrestling business w/out being a excellent in ring performer & John is a great example of this.

You are using the wrong definition for the standards of being a pro. Maybe you missed out on this, but pro wrestling is staged. The outcomes of matches are predetermined. Actual ring ability, in and of itself, devoid of the other aspects that make a professional wrestler successful, is completely meaningless in such a setting. You could be the best pure wrestler that ever lived, but if you are boring and the fans don't give a shit about you, your career will be short. Conversely, if you aren't the best mat grappler, but you bring other things to the table that the audience can connect with, you will have a long career. John Cena brings a host of other things to the table.

Yeah I already knew this Lol damn you most really thought I was out of touch w/what sports entertainment is all about. This is what I was saying in my other post that John lacked in ring ability, but he brings the other tools to the table to be a overall good wrestler.

Essentially, you are simply using a definition that is ill-suited to the world of professional wrestling, because it operates much differently than amateur wrestling does. John Cena is a good/great wrestler in the professional sense of the word, even if he isn't a good wrestler in the amateur sense, because they are simply DIFFERENT.

No, I guess you just misunderstood what I meant, I know the difference between the two.

 

[Vincent Michaels]

John is hit are miss w/his psychology he doesn't go into all his matches w/a set plan on how to defeat his opponent, & his moveset isn't realistically enough to keep his opponents down for a 3 count.

This is what I don't get. How is his moveset not realistic enough? He starts off by throwing his 250 pound from into a guy multiple times, spins them around and slams them on their back before hitting the 5 Knuckle Shuffle. Sure it's more of a flashy move, but so were finishers like The Peoples Elbow. Then he picks you up and uses all his strength to lift you off your feet onto his shoulders and drops you flat onto your back. And if that doesn't work he'll put you in The STF where he stretches your back, neck, & knees until you subnit. I don't what's so unrealistic about that. If Hulk Hogan, one of the most famous famous wrestlers EVER could use a few punches, a kick to the head and a legdrop to finish a match, which made him one of the most over stars ever, than so can Cena in this aspect, but with a better way of doing it realistically.

 

[The Mighty Tiger]

This is what I don't get. How is his moveset not realistic enough? He starts off by throwing his 250 pound from into a guy multiple times, spins them around and slams them on their back before hitting the 5 Knuckle Shuffle. Sure it's more of a flashy move, but so were finishers like The Peoples Elbow. Then he picks you up and uses all his strength to lift you off your feet onto his shoulders and drops you flat onto your back. And if that doesn't work he'll put you in The STF where he stretches your back, neck, & knees until you subnit. I don't what's so unrealistic about that. If Hulk Hogan, one of the most famous famous wrestlers EVER could use a few punches, a kick to the head and a legdrop to finish a match, which made him one of the most over stars ever, than so can Cena in this aspect, but with a better way of doing it realistically.

It's not realistic because that isn't enough offense to keep a guy down for a 3 count & he doesn't apply the stfu properly. Hulk Hogans offense really wasn't believable, but in Hogan's defense he wrestled in a different time period where disbelief was really thrown out the window, but Cena wrestles in a era where things are more real.

 

[Vincent Michaels]

It's not realistic because that isn't enough offense to keep a guy down for a 3 count & he doesn't apply the stfu properly. Hulk Hogans offense really wasn't believable, but in Hogan's defense he wrestled in a different time period where disbelief was really thrown out the window, but Cena wrestles in a era where things are more real.

3 seconds isn't that much time to keep someone down. Especially when you factor in things like pure fatigue and taking previous offense from Cena. I mean, it's not like every single match starts with him down and out. The match usually stays pretty even before the heel begins to dominate like most heels do before the face(in this case, Cena) begins to take advantage and make a comeback. Also, it's not Cena's fault that he wrestles in an era where things are seen more as real. In the 80s Cena would've thrived in his kind of situations just like Hogan did. Now today while Hogan recieves so much praise for it, Cena gets constantly hated on. What's so wrong with a little suspended belief in an age of wrestling where every single detail of every single character, storyline, and every single instance of backstage drama are all usually taken WAY too seriously?

 

[ABMorales787]

John Cena can wrestle. He moves smoothly and tells a proper story while displaying basic wrestling prowess. It's not all flips and armdrags, you know. The Great Khali can't wrestle. If he were to actually try, chances are he'll tear something in his knees. Hence why he can't wrestle. The crowd? They are attention ****es. They are on TV. What do you expect them to do? Sit down, be quiet and be respectful? This ain't Japan. It's America. The biggest collective of rauchy, annoying and ignorant people. Open an arena, promote an event, good luck finding people with common sense who can get their personal biased out of the way. The chant should be ignored plain and simple. You can judge from your couch. The wrestler can judge just how good he is. He has peers to tell him and are most likely not afraid to hide the truth. Listen to them. Not the teenage goofs jumping around with signs and booze trying to get on TV.

 

[The Mighty Tiger]

3 seconds isn't that much time to keep someone down. Especially when you factor in things like pure fatigue and taking previous offense from Cena.

This statement is only true to a certain extent, alot of John's opponents don't receive alot of offense from him. Not to mention alot of his matches isn't long enough for a well conditioned athlete to suffer from fatigue.

I mean, it's not like every single match starts with him down and out. The match usually stays pretty even before the heel begins to dominate like most heels do before the face(in this case, Cena) begins to take advantage and make a comeback.

I didn't say every single match of his started out w/him getting bashed, but the majority of his matches are won in a unbelievable fashion.

Also, it's not Cena's fault that he wrestles in an era where things are seen more as real.

You know this statement sounds like bias defending of John Cena. I can say it's not a wrestlers fault about a lot of things, but that still wouldn't change the facts of the situation. If everybody else's matches on the roster is design in less of a keyfabe environment then the guy that main events matches who leads the company should follow that same principle.

In the 80s Cena would've thrived in his kind of situations just like Hogan did.

Yeah, but this isn't the 80s.

Now today while Hogan recieves so much praise for it, Cena gets constantly hated on.

Thats not completely true Hogan gets a lot of criticism. They both wrestled in two different time periods w/different rules applying to how you go about a match so really you can't compare these two. It's not a fair comparison when ppl do this cause the bar has been raised pretty high since the days of when Hogan was selling out Madison Square Garden.

What's so wrong with a little suspended belief in an age of wrestling where every single detail of every single character, storyline, and every single instance of backstage drama are all usually taken WAY too seriously?

There's nothing wrong w/it sometimes, but it's not sometimes it's almost all the time when the topic is on John Cena. Now if he was built up as some supernatural character then I could go w/all his victories w/the moveset he uses & the layout of most his matches. John isn't built as supernatural, his character is that of a hardworking honest normal man, but when you watch his matches he is booked as almost unstoppable. Why is this? He has no keyfabe powers like Undertaker or Kane, so what is the deal w/him being terminator like. If he was his old character of The Prototype then it would make more sense, but that's not the case.

 

[ringjobber1]

Well the clear and resonable answer is that no matter what we say or how many fat people with no lives say "you can't wrestle" and get bashed for it nothings going to change you may put one in place but there are millions of other people who thinks different ways and no matter what there's always gonna be a smart ass who pulls this.

 

[itssoeasy123]

"You can't wrestle" chant is a bullshit chant made up by some ROH mark's who think if you don't do 20 moves a match, or your not Kurt Angle "you can't wrestle."

I can't stand it, it hold's no ground at all from a fan's standpoint who may be a fat-ass eating a pizza currently living in his mom's basement wearing a ECW T-shirt chanting it. Idon't get how it makes sense to saw a wrestler "can't wrestle."

Anyway, I hate the chant, it's normal in the smakr/indy city's like Chicago or New York, and it's just a stupid chant which hold's no ground form a fan's standpoint who sitting in a chair chanting "you can't wrestle."

 

[Ruddalin]

It's very relative, of course there are elements of the old saying "you don't need to be a chef to know if the cake tastes like crap or not" because all in all it is a spectator event, if the fans don't like it, they're letting the rassler know so that he can possibly step up his game or not. I agree with the statement that most of the fan demographic should probably take a look in the mirror before chanting something so aggressive at someone obviously in much better shape than them, but at the same time like I said, if they don't like it, they're doing pretty much the only thing they know how to do to change it.

 

[Yesiamaduck]

I'm sorry OP but it matters when it's their profession, surely

I mean I know I can't do brain surgery but I'm not trying to do brain surgery, whereas I want to get my brain worked on I want to know the guy can do brain surgery.

Same goes for wrestling, when I want to go to a show that I pay for I want to see people that can ACTUALLY wrestle to a standard I find acceptable. If someone is out there being a wrestler and doing that a profession when they can't do it properly they should be called out on it... to be fair I think Cena can wrestle, just not brilliantly, people like Khali it's a different story. He probably does a better job then me, but at the end of the day I'm not trying to be a wrestler and nor am I getting people to pay for me to do something I can't do.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

The funniest thing is, they not only have no right to chant "you can't wrestle" because they themselves can't, but also because they actually don't know what good wrestling is. Does good wrestling consist of RVD jumping around, not telling a story, not selling anything, landing on his head, doing the same spot 5 times, botching it 3 of those times, and landing on his head, making all the spot marks go "ooooohhh". Or is it John Cena punching and selling and having a firey comeback?

The answer is MOST people aren't qualified to say "that's good wrestling". They look stupid because the bottom line in wrestling is getting over. If you are in the WWE, and have been for a while, chances are you are pretty technically sound because that ensures that you're safe and WWE isn't going to keep someone who injures people employed, so already, MOST guys can do all the moves. Some guys just have different movesets to fit their character. A huge moveset doesn't make you a great wrestler. Raven once said "to an extent, everyone can do any move".

A great wrestler gets the crowd involved. Guys like Cena getting the smarks to chant "you can't wrestle" is, in a sense, an oxymoron. By them making noise, and he obvioulsy wants that based off how he acts and what they say (the 30% smarks boo and 70% rest cheer) means he's doing his job. Thus, he is a "good wrestler".

I don't care if you think Teddy Hart getting tagged in, doing a Canadian Destroyer, then a powerbomb into a lungblower, then tagging out is "wrestling". It fucking isn't because he risked the other guy's health for a sequence that didn't get over. That, by the way, is a sequence that actually happened.

The ECW fans, and fans of the sort, are morons. They get worked more than marks. They get worked by moves and people who write columns AND the wrestlers

Same goes for wrestling, when I want to go to a show that I pay for I want to see people that can ACTUALLY wrestle to a standard I find acceptable. If someone is out there being a wrestler and doing that a profession when they can't do it properly they should be called out on it... to be fair I think Cena can wrestle, just not brilliantly, people like Khali it's a different story. He probably does a better job then me, but at the end of the day I'm not trying to be a wrestler and nor am I getting people to pay for me to do something I can't do.

Explain how to properly do a suplex, take a bump, hit the ropes, a moonsault, a bodyslam, and a headlock takeover. Also tell us all the proper way to get up after being slammed (yes there is a proper way), and also tell us what it means to "bump and feed". I mean, if you know how to properly wrestle. Saying "you can't wrestle" is fucking stupid because YOU don't know how. It's not that I'm criticizing people for not doing it as good as the wrestlers, but because if Cena does a suplex, and someone else does a suplex, and you think Cena did it worse, but bret hart comes along and say "no, Cena actually did it better" then you're WRONG. You don't know if he does it well or not because you don't know how to do the moves. If he doesn't entertain you, that's one thing. for most of you spot marks he does and you don't know it .By making noise you are acknowledging that he is, whether you admit it or not, if he didn't entertain you, you wouldn't make a sound, or if you were as smart as you (you being smarks) think you are then you wouldn't make a noise, because that's how you tell vince you don't like a guy.

 

[Guardian of Takhisis]

I find it interesting how this thread got way off topic with the debate back and forth over John Cena. Alot of threads end up doing that with some people claiming he sucks and is horrible wrestler while other defend the hell out of him. I can see both sides of the argument. I can see why people don't like him, but I don't agree with it. I've watched many of his matches and heard his promos. Despite what the nay-sayers are arguing I feel that he entertains me. That's all the matters to me. Now something else the people that don't like him say are how he only has a limited moveset. This is another bad point. It was discussed on another thread so I'm no going to go into to much detail but it was pointed out that alot of the great wrestlers only had a limited moveset. I'm a fan of Stone Cold and The Rock but if you watch their matches they didn't go out with like 50 different moves. They had the ones that they used most often and every once in awhile they would change it up. Another point brought up is his finisher and how it's not a believable one. Neither is the Rock's. Even the Rock in his book made mention of that fact. He said how it's just a normal elbow drop but with the added flair it became the most electrifying move in sport's entertainment. When he used the Rock Bottom as a finisher it was a little more believable because it looks like a move that would knock the wind out of you. But back onto topic. I agree with most people on this thread. It might be freedom of speech but it doesn't make it right. If they people in the ring couldn't wrestle then what the hell are they doing in the ring. Meaning they must be able to wrestle or WWE or even TNA wouldn't have put them in the ring in the first place. Their styles might be different. One person is a grappler, one might be a powerhouse, one might be technical and another might be a high flyer. The video games proved this theory. All the wrestlers don't have the same moveset or the same stats. Depending on what type of wrestler you make that determines your moveset. You won't see people like John Cena or The Rock climbing the top rope for a hurricanrana. On the opposing side you won't see people like Rey Mysterio perform a chokeslam, especially on someone of John Cena's size. It might be freedom of speech to say it but doesn't make it right.

 

[Calderownz]

Honestly, it's a very annoying chant and the criticism is ridiculous. The guy can wrestle. All there is to it.

He doesn't injure people. He doesn't get injured himself. He hardly misses a spot or makes a mistake. He doesn't pull his shots too much and he can take the shots in return. He sells well enough to help the match and he can work you over in the match or get explosive.

Is he Daniel Bryan? No. Is he The Great Khali? No. But the fact of the matter is that considering all the other things that he brings to the table, being in the middle of the pack is fine. He has a great look, reps the company well with word and with staying out of trouble and he is "always on time" so to speak.

Hating the guy is pretty damn lame.

No matter what videos of wrestling you check on youtube, you'll get comments like....

"Cena ruins the show."

"Cena will never be this good or popular."

"Cena blows. This guy owns Cena."

The videos will never be about Cena. These people just sit around and think about Cena. Ridiculous.

 

[Dagger Dias]

Some fans are just jerks. The "you can't wrestle" chants are rude, even if directed at someone like Khali who is legitimately awful in the ring. They are out there trying to entertain the fans, who are being rude to them. It might sound like fun to make fun of them from the fan perspective but would you like hearing rude chants from thousands of people when you tried to put on a show for them? I don't think any wrestler deserves it because they are trying to entertain the very fans who are being rude to them.

 

[THE Great GAMMA]

i actually agree with Slyfox. Just because you pay to go watch a live event doesn't mean you not a hypocrite when you chant things like "you can't wrestle". I would love to get a breakdown of what the IWC or who ever chants that thinks is wrestling.

For some reason these people pick on Khali. Admittedly he isnt the best ring general at all.

But he isnt supposed to be. he is supposed to be an unstoppable Giant who can dominate anybody and destroy them in seconds. So in that regard its the way he is booked that is the problem not his in ring ability.

For some reason these people are also the same people that say Andre the Giant was the best big man to ever in the business. Have any of you watched an Andre the Giant match except the one with hogan???? I doubt it. He would literally go out there and toss a guy around for 3 mins the hit an elbow drop and leave. He was so bad Randy Savage failed to make him look good in the ring. But he is the Best BIG MAN EVER. HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ECWDanSelby]

There's nothing wrong with freedom of speech, fellas.

I can appreciate that sometimes the fans get it real wrong (I heard fans in the Impact Zone chanting 'you can't wrestle' at Bully Ray... WHAT?!). But there have been some guys over the years (Nathan Jones, people who can only do rest holds) who just wern't good enough, simple as that.

If I was bad at my job, i'd end up being told.

Wrestling's a strange one because if the fans crap all over you, that is almost the equivilant of being told "you're doing something that isn't quite right". If the fans arn't happy, something's not right.

It's the same with the "boring" chants. I always found them a little disrespectful, but then on the flipside, I genuinely think I could put on a better match than some of the guys at some points (rarely). That's when you know something's up.

Selby

 

[joshmosh127]

are you really gonna sit there and i try to tell me that "The Great Kahli" can wrestle? that guy can barely walk let alone wrestle...certain people deserve the chants they get