WWE Region, Third Round, Dog Collar Match: (2) Shawn Michaels vs. (7) Bob Backlund

[The Brain]

I just dont understand how some people dont consider HBK to be one of the best ever. His in ring work should speak for itself. I cant recall Backlund putting on a single match that was better than either of the HBK\Taker matches. What Shawn did in those losses and still came up short- damn. Those were astounding and dramatic matches.

They were astounding and dramatic matches, and like you said they were matches that Michaels lost. WM10, great perfromance by HBK. A loss. WM11, great perfromance by HBK. A loss. WM20, great perfromance by HBK. A loss. WM21, great perfromance by HBK. A loss. WM23, great perfromance by HBK. A loss. And as mentioned WM25 & 26, great performances by HBK. Both losses. The man who built his legacy by calling himself Mr. WrestleMania is a regular loser at WrestleMania. I see this match going the same way. Wrestlezone tournament, great performance by HBK against Bob Backlund. A loss.

Also, the distance for the SCM argument is crap. He has proven he can hit that kick in a short distance and still be very effective. Hell the fact he can hit it out of nowhere, just when you think he is dead should prove a valid point also. How many times have we seen HBK hit that kick when the chips were down? You think you have him beat, he hits SCM out of nowhere and its over. In mere seconds the whole match swings the other way. Chain and Chicken-Wing aside- that kick is something HBK has that Backlund doesnt. He might graze him with one early on, but at the last second when Bob thinks everything is ok- BAM! Lights out Backlund.

I agree Michales doesn't need a lot of distance to hit sweet chin music, but some of the arguments saying how he would connect just don't make sense. You know what usually happens after sweet chin music? It's not a 1 2 3. It's usually Michaels hitting the move out of desperation and lying on the mat selling the beating he's already taken. By the time he is able to cover the opponent, the opponent has had time to recover and kick out.

That kick has taken out men of great talent within the blink of an eye. Go ahead and count Shawn down and out, beat him up and make him bleed. You will see what happens- Sweet Chin Music.

Followed by a Michaels loss, and as usual he will look great in defeat.

 

[IHW]

Micheals has to win here. In my opinion HBK is the greatest of all time. Call this a written vote if it is to come down to a tie. Micheals would do what he did best his entire career, and over come the odds using his great wrestling abilities. The rope could apply for a lot of technical wrestling, and that is something Shawn could work with.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

Micheals has to win here. In my opinion HBK is the greatest of all time. Call this a written vote if it is to come down to a tie. Micheals would do what he did best his entire career, and over come the odds using his great wrestling abilities. The rope could apply for a lot of technical wrestling, and that is something Shawn could work with.

If we're talking what Michaels did for most of his career, that would be lose. Look great, but lose.

Vote Backlund. He was the top draw of the company for over 4 years. HBK, for all of his greatness, has never been able to carry the company in the way Backlund did. The stipulation just puts Michaels in too big of a hole. He's going to be too close and going to be forced to mat wrestle with an insanely strong guy who also happens to be one of the best mat wrestlers ever.

 

[Pay Per Ghost]

Shawn was one of those glorified even in defeat. So much so, that it became a written deed that Shawn would lose to make the other guy look better, coz Shawn's glory was a given.



That is post 2002 Shawn for me. By that time he had built a rep, and only enhanced it further till 2010. But that smug HBK from 97 would punch, rake, crawl, do anything to win. I still don't know why Brain can't see HBK connecting with SCM when the chain is yanked because I see that as the only finish. If people would get their heads out of their asses and realize that Shawn couldn't do anything about the nWo exploding and him having to leave due to a career threatening back injury, they would stop saying shit like "oh he didn't carry the company like Bob". Shawn has wrestled many a men stronger than Backlund, bigger than Backlund and won. Cheated, and won.



HBK people.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

When was Shawn Michaels in his prime physically? In the 90s when he was a heel? If so, I don't see how he could lose this match.

I think that it can be argued that Shawn's prime was as a face because he was the undisputed top dog of the company then as compared to when he was heel in 1997 when he had the likes of Bret, Undertaker and a rising Austin to contend with. Though that does not matter much because even as a heel Shawn was not known for his viciousness. He was a chickenshit heel who would not enjoy being tied up with another stronger wrestler like Backlund. He would try to run around here and avoid Backlund if he were a heel but would not be successful due to the dog collar 'round his neck.

If people would get their heads out of their asses and realize that Shawn couldn't do anything about the nWo exploding and him having to leave due to a career threatening back injury, they would stop saying shit like "oh he didn't carry the company like Bob".

I think that while you can attribute Shawn's lack of success due to the nWo, you have to remember that the ratings declined with Shawn as champion even before nWo was fully formed, before Bash At The Beach 1996 and even before Hall and Nash left for WCW. You can attribute that to a weak roster but considering how WWF went from strength to strength in the Attitude Era without Shawn, an argument can be made that Shawn would have never become a top dog in a strong roster.

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I'll give it to Backlund here. Speed is the most important part of Shawn's game and without that, I really cannot see him winning too many matches. I just cannot see any of HBK's offense working. He cannot do the top rope elbow, the bodyslam would just yank his neck downward which would place immense pressure on his neck.

The SCM may work if Shawn hits it and falls on Backlund but just an SCM cannot get HBK a win here. I remember Shawn hitting an SCM out of nowhere when he was getting his ass kicked by HHH at SummerSlam 2002 and that too onto a chair but that could only get him a two count. Backlund is the superior technical grappler here, stronger than HBK and by keeping HBK close to him at all points during the match, he will be able to use his submissions on him more effectively. The dog collar does not nullify the chickenwing crossface niether does it have an effect on the elevated running atomic drop that was Backlund's finisher in his prime.

HBK's technical game is not that strong. He tried some technical wrestling against Hart at WM 12 but was outclassed and only managed to win when he brought his speed into the equation. He lost to Orton in 2007 when he was not allowed to use the SCM and had to wrestle a more technical style.

Vote Backlund.

 

[LSN80]

The SCM may work if Shawn hits it and falls on Backlund but just an SCM cannot get HBK a win here.

Which wouldn't be without precedent though. He beat HHH that way, and he beat Cena that exact same way in the 2007 45 minute Raw match.

I remember Shawn hitting an SCM out of nowhere when he was getting his ass kicked by HHH at SummerSlam 2002 and that too onto a chair but that could only get him a two count.

And yet he beat the stronger, face of the company in John Cena that way.

[YOUTUBE]AfYxthlIIro[/YOUTUBE]

See 3:09 on. Cena tried to overpower him, and in close, HBK hit SCM, and got the three. If he could do it to Cena, why couldn't he do it to Backlund?

HBK's technical game is not that strong. He tried some technical wrestling against Hart at WM 12 but was outclassed and only managed to win when he brought his speed into the equation.

That's a pretty outlandish statement, actually. To say he was "outclassed" would seem to indicate Hart bested him at some point. How many pinfalls did Hart get over HBK in that match? None.

It wasn't his speed, it was his ability to hit out of nowhere. It was kick, braced himself off the ground(which would be realistic here), and fall into the pinfall.

He lost to Orton in 2007 when he was not allowed to use the SCM and had to wrestle a more technical style.

HBK, out of his prime, gave the WWE Champion everything he could and then some, almost making him submit on several occasions. If it weren't for rope breaks, Orton WOULD have been forced to submit.
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HBK is more diverse, and can wrestle numerous styles effectively. Couple that with having a finisher he can hit out of nowhere, and certainly in this match, and HBK has Backlund here.

 

[Davi323]

He lost to Orton in 2007 when he was not allowed to use the SCM and had to wrestle a more technical style.

This is a complete red herring argument, since there is no such limitation on HBK in this match. The "loss" against Orton was specifically designed to put HBK at a disadvantage against Orton BECAUSE he can hit Sweet Chin Music out of nowhere. Reverse the situations a second mentally...HBK is champ instead of Orton, Orton can't use the RKO, but HBK loses belt on a DQ. Is Randy Orton not at a much bigger disadvantage for not being allowed to use the RKO than HBK would have been for having to prevent himself from getting DQed? It's easy to win a match without getting DQed. All you have to do is not get caught breaking the rules. Take away your bread and butter finisher though? Much tougher.

So you could argue that there was a stipulation against Orton too in that match, but the implications of those stipulations were not even close to being equivalent. The whole thing was designed to ensure Orton kept the title.

I do want to thank you though, Rattlesnake...by mentioning that SCM was banned in that match, you actually proved those claiming that HBK can hit SCM out of nowhere right, because it was that fact that led to the stipulation in the first place.

 

[Mr. Book This Section]

I voted Shaun Michaels. I consider him a bigger name and wrestler in wrestling. Shaun made wrestling and is arguably one of the greatest wrestlers of all time.

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Career accomplishments - given the different eras and their quirks, I'd call them quite close. I would however give Backlund the edge because his prime is more easily defined whereas HBK's is a much greyer area - is it when he realised his boyhood dreams? Is it when he had DX as backup? Or, is it when he became "the Showstopper, the Main Event, the Icon, Mr Wrestlemania" when he enhanced his legacy? The (W)WWF/e has always been more face friendly, so I'd give the edge to Backlund over 'heel' Shawn. His second stint with the organisation has seen him more agreeable to putting people over which gives the edge to the guy with a 3 and a half year title run. The Shawn who realised his dreams is the most likely but this was a very small segment of his total career and still no guarantee to put him over.

I just can't ignore the stipulation though. It completely works to the grappler's strengths and Backlund was one of the greatest in our kayfabe world so I have to say that I believe that Mr Backlund would ultimately prevail in this contest.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

And yet he beat the stronger, face of the company in John Cena that way.

[YOUTUBE]AfYxthlIIro[/YOUTUBE]

See 3:09 on. Cena tried to overpower him, and in close, HBK hit SCM, and got the three. If he could do it to Cena, why couldn't he do it to Backlund?

You do not understand. This is not what I am talking about. This was a match in which Shawn was able to use his speed to do quite a bit of damage on Cena in the earlier phases of the match. By the time Shawn hit the SCM on Cena both guys were dead beat. That is why the SCM was so effective.

In this sort of match HBK has little apart from the SCM to help him. He cannot really fly around here. He has to stay close to Backlund at all times and Backlund is quite a strong fella. And as we know the SCM cannot win you matches just by itself. Look what happened here.

[YOUTUBE]pAXaV1EFxMY[/YOUTUBE]

HBK did not get much offense in in the first few minutes of the match and tried to turn the tide using his SCM but it only got him a two count. He was later able to win the match but only because he used his speed and his high flying moves to his advantage, something which he would not be able to use here.

That's a pretty outlandish statement, actually. To say he was "outclassed" would seem to indicate Hart bested him at some point. How many pinfalls did Hart get over HBK in that match? None.

It wasn't his speed, it was his ability to hit out of nowhere. It was kick, braced himself off the ground(which would be realistic here), and fall into the pinfall.

[YOUTUBE]QKqmMq6XE80[/YOUTUBE]

Uh, actually it was his speed. Look at how HBK reverses the momentum in this match. Every time, it is a high flying cruiserweight-esque move. The hurricanara, the moonsault, the elbow drop, HBK won't be able to use anything here.

As for the kick, look how HBK was even able to hit Hart in the first place. Hart was charging him and he just floated over him using the turnbuckle. Hard to do that with a chain attached round your neck.

HBK, out of his prime, gave the WWE Champion everything he could and then some, almost making him submit on several occasions. If it weren't for rope breaks, Orton WOULD have been forced to submit.

And did he win? Nope. Orton was able to make his way to the ropes in the first place because HBK did not lock in the moves correctly. Certainly his sharpshooter looked very shoddy. Also, he did use high flying moves in this match to reverse momentum which he would not be able to do here.

Backlund wins. Because he is stronger than HBK, much more suited to the technical game, is more consistent if you look at wins and losses, that too over a pretty long period of time and altogether more vicious than HBK has ever been. Oh yeah, and HBK is like a fish out of water here wihout his high flying offense.

I do want to thank you though, Rattlesnake...by mentioning that SCM was banned in that match, you actually proved those claiming that HBK can hit SCM out of nowhere right, because it was that fact that led to the stipulation in the first place.

How cute. Yes, the SCM is a great finisher which is something which I am admitting but it also cannot win matches by itself which much be pretty apparent by now.

 

[Davi323]

How cute. Yes, the SCM is a great finisher which is something which I am admitting but it also cannot win matches by itself which much be pretty apparent by now.

Who said it would win the match all by itself? I know I never said it would. My point was that it was stupid to point to that match specifically, because HBK is not barred from using SCM against Backlund as he was against Orton. Shawn Michaels has put on a lot of technically superb matches without the ban on SCM.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

Who said it would win the match all by itself? I know I never said it would. My point was that it was stupid to point to that match specifically, because HBK is not barred from using SCM against Backlund as he was against Orton. Shawn Michaels has put on a lot of technically superb matches without the ban on SCM.

The purpose was to show that HBK isn't all that great when it comes to using submissions, something which he would undoubtedly have to use here, because he cannot fly around like he usually does.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Michaels had a lot more in his arsenal than just the SCM and his flying around the ring. Yeah, taking that ability away does take away some of his offense but many times before Michaels used his version of the figure four. He even had a short period of time where he used an armtrap crossface. Early in his career he used the Teardrop Suplex for a short time. He also used atomic drops, belly to back suplexes and other similar moves. The stipulation evens this match out but Michaels still takes it more often than not.

 

[Hulk Hogan's Brother]

The figure four and crossface have done nothing ever for Shawn. Lesser technically sound men like Orton have been able to break free from it and I'm pretty sure Backlund would be able to do the same given how good a technician he is.

The match takes away the type of offense that has helped HBK win most of his matches. Show me a match that he has won without the help of high flying moves. He just hasn't, man. On the other hand, this match takes nothing away from Backlund who is a pretty great wrestler even without the stipulation. The odds on Backlund winning this are greater.

 

[Larry]

Here I have provided a video from WCW Uncensored 99. If you skip to approximately the 20 minute mark you'll see that Chris Jericho is facing Perry Saturn in a Dog Collar Match. If you continue to watch you'll see that neither Saturn or Jericho is anywhere near as limited in mobility/ability to use their offense as people have suggested. This is important because everyone is basing their judgment on Shawn Michaels not having the ability to use most of his offense, but if you watch the video you'll see that as wasn't the case here with Saturn and Jericho, meaning Michaels would have all his tools at his disposal. He could use rope moves, he could go to the top turnbuckle, and he could use the chain and situation to his advantage over Backlund. Shawn was as scrappy as anyone and technically sound enough to go toe-to-toe with Bret Hart, as well as slug it out with all the big men, there is no reason here that he would be at a disadvantage and with that being said, there is no way Bob Backlund beats Shawn Michaels who is fully able to use his repertoire regadrless of the stipulation.

[YOUTUBE]kkaNsy7u3MQ[/YOUTUBE]

 

[FitFinlay4Life]

Here I have provided a video from WCW Uncensored 99. If you skip to approximately the 20 minute mark you'll see that Chris Jericho is facing Perry Saturn in a Dog Collar Match. If you continue to watch you'll see that neither Saturn or Jericho is anywhere near as limited in mobility/ability to use their offense as people have suggested. This is important because everyone is basing their judgment on Shawn Michaels not having the ability to use most of his offense, but if you watch the video you'll see that as wasn't the case here with Saturn and Jericho, meaning Michaels would have all his tools at his disposal. He could use rope moves, he could go to the top turnbuckle, and he could use the chain and situation to his advantage over Backlund. Shawn was as scrappy as anyone and technically sound enough to go toe-to-toe with Bret Hart, as well as slug it out with all the big men, there is no reason here that he would be at a disadvantage and with that being said, there is no way Bob Backlund beats Shawn Michaels who is fully able to use his repertoire regadrless of the stipulation.

[YOUTUBE]kkaNsy7u3MQ[/YOUTUBE]

I know the poll is closed but this match doesn't really enforce your point BB. A WCW ring was 18" by 18" and, as you can ascertain from the video, the chain is at least that length. The chain length in the stip of this match is 10" which would cut a WWe ring down even more drastically (it being 20" by 20"). Basically, if Backlund was lying prone in the centre of the ring, HBK wouldn't even have the slack to utilise the turnbuckle for his elbow drop.

Another negative aspect to this clip as an argument is that the grappler went over the more athletic opponent, implying that Bob would still have had the advantage.

But, again, the bout has ended, HBK has progressed, so no harm, no foul.