This is a second round match in the WWE Region, Los Angeles Subregion. It is a standard one on one match. It will be held at the Staples Center, Los Angeles, California
#5. Mick Foley
Vs.
#12. Jushin Thunder Liger
This match takes place 1 week after round 1.
Polls will be open for three days following a one day period for discussion. Voting will be based on who you feel is the greater of the two competitors. Post your reasons for why your pick should win below. Remember that this is non-spam and the most votes in the poll win. Any ties will be broken by the amount of posts of support for each candidate, with one vote per poster.
Also remember that this is a non-spam forum. If you post a response without giving a reason for your selection, it will be penalized for spam and deleted.
Although I think Liger is a big deal in Japan and could hold his own against almost any superstar we are talking about Mick Foley, a former WWE champion and one of the craziest mother fuckers who ever set foot in the ring.
Furthermore, Foley spent enough time in japan to be familiar with the moves and techniques so he would be more than equipped to handle this.
Mark as I may be, I am also a NYer so this pains me to say but Foley is a fat, slow, weak, brawler-type who in practically every conceivable way is inferior to Liger. JTL is technically proficient, an innovative high-flyer (inventor of the shooting star press) able to take calculated risks, adept in both amateur wrestling and martial art striking, and has enough brute strength to toss men of Foley's considerable heft. No disrespect to Mick but he is simply outclassed.
Jushin Thunder Liger doesn't brawl and has chopped down big men in Japan. Foley's all about thumbtacks, land mines, and barbed wire... which will get him DQ'ed in this style of match.
Without that stuff, Foley's not only less than a god, he's less than good. Slow, lethargic, and desperate when he's being outfoxed, Foley will end up being disqualified for using some sort of weapon because he can't figure out how to stop the barrage that will be Liger.
No company has ever had a problem with putting Jushin Liger over its own workers. In WCW he beat Benoit and Mysterio jr, in ROH he beat Danielson and in TNA he beat Petey Williams. All of those guys are pretty small though, and the only guy with a similar physique he has faced in the USA is Samoa Joe, whom he lost to.
Now Samoa Joe is as fat as Foley, but the similarity pretty much ends there. Liger is immensely entertaining with his quickness, but he's also pretty strong, and where Joe is a bit more nuanced, Foley is quite one dimensional, so you can see how Liger would win. On the basis that Foley often put people over, and lost a lot of matches to showcase his opponent, I think I'm going to go with Liger.
Your arguments just got me. If this was a hardcore or ECW match Foley would go over. However in this environment JTL is going to outclass Foley with his agility.
If this match took place in ECW or was esentially a hardcore match, I'd go with Foley in a heartbeat. In my view, Liger is no match for Foley in a no rules environment.
However, as others have pointed out, Foley is just vastly inferior to Liger inside the ring and as an athlete. Liger is obviously faster & more agile, he's also in far better physical & cardivascular condition than Foley.
In this match, there are no steel chairs that can be used. Foley can't use 2x4s wrapped in barbed wire, he can't slam Liger through a flaming table or on a bed of thumbtacks. Foley's legendary toughness will still carry him through, thereby giving Liger a tough match that he's going to have to work for. But, in the end, in this environment, I don't see Foley coming out ahead.
If it's just Mick Foley, as Mick Foley, I agree with everyone else that Jushin Thunder Liger would come out on top. But, when was Mick Foley in his prime? Was it as Cactus Jack? Was it as Mankind? Which version of Mankind? If Mick Foley's prime is his initial run as Mankind, and not the jokey 2nd version, I am no longer so sure. As Mankind, Mick Foley scored a lot of wins over guys that would all be considered vastly superior wrestlers. If Mick/Mankind could ever get Liger in a position to apply the Mandible Claw, Liger's overall wrestling superiority would be irrelevant. The Mandible Claw was a great equalizer for Mick/Mankind. Mick/Mankind went almost half an hour against HBK, a much faster, more agile, superior opponent, just like Liger.
This is an interesting matchup, because to me, the results largely would depend on which Mick Foley you get.
Basically, I would argue that this version of Mick Foley is going to be a hell of a lot tougher to beat than Cactus Jack, Dude Love, the 2nd version of Mankind (with the tie and "have a nice day shirt" etc, or just sweatpants wearing Mick Foley. Doesn't mean that I would think Mick would win, but I don't think it would be quite the cakewalk for Liger as some think. This version of Mick Foley would not only stand a chance, but I can see him winning under certain circumstances, even in a non-hardcore match.
Foley shined in chaotic, hardcore environments and had some success in them. Outside of those environments, he spent a vast majority of his career as a jobber to the stars. Jushin Liger has victories worldwide against many household names like the ones Tastycles mentioned earlier. As much as I do enjoy Foley, Liger will run circles around him and eventually move on to the 3rd round.
Another one of these matches where the current perception of the wrestler is being put into play. Mick Foley was never an in shape wrestler, but in his day, he was far from a lethargic sloth he's being painted as. The thing that makes Foley so damn unpredictable is that he plays so many characters, and it's hard to decide which one is going to show up. I doubt you'd see Cactus Jack in this match, but you might see Mankind, and Mankind of 1996 was a sick fuck that absorbed a ridiculous amount of pain and prevailed in the end.
I'm leaning with Liger though. I'm not as knowledgable of all things Liger like some other posters, but I do know that Liger can actually "powerup" from time to time to. Essentially, he does the same thing Foley does. Liger actually transforms into another character in Kishin Liger. Kishin is far more aggresive then Jushin.
I honestly would have loved to have seen this match. The characters involved and the clash of styles could have been amazing. I'm going with Thunder.
Another one of these matches where the current perception of the wrestler is being put into play. Mick Foley was never an in shape wrestler, but in his day, he was far from a lethargic sloth he's being painted as.
It seems a lot of people have forgotten about Cactus Jack and Mankind since we've gotten to know the really Mick Foley so well. Liger is not up against the man who wears sweatpants and gym shoes while looking for cheap pops. He's against a ruthless lunatic. Just because he can't use barb wire baseball bats and flaming 2x4s doesn't mean Cactus can't turn this into a brawl and beat up on the smaller Liger. Even though this isn't a no DQ match, for whatever reason Cactus always got a lot of leeway from the referees in regards to the rules. He'll probably get some here too as he puts Liger down.
Brain makes a good point. Foley as Cactus was more than we remember.
I have been going back and forth over this for a while. Liger is a great talent and has superior skills. Foley is the bigger man and could easily turn this into an out and out brawl and take the win.
I was ready to vote for Liger because Foley has a history of putting guys over but the match takes place in the US, where Liger had less success and name recognition than he did in Japan so I am barely giving the edge to Foley.
Brain gets it. Yazloz gets it. Davi kind of gets it.
Fact is Foley is good. Foley is great. People talk about him like he's just another brawler. That's incorrect he's THE brawler. He is also a weebl, he wobbles but he never falls down. Foley also had two peaks in his career with two different characters. Let's look at Cactus Jack. Jack is a lunatic with a 2x4. He also as Brain said got a LOT of leeway from the referees, why? Because Foley gets it, he knows what he is doing AND when people see foley it's what they want to see. That's not taking away from his abilities in the ring, that's giving him a straight up advantage.
Foley will win, it will be a goddamn close match but there is no way foley isn't walking away victorious
Am I the only one who is paying attention to the regions around here?
There is no way a masked Japanese wrestler is going over Foley in a damn WWE ring, in the US no less. Someone pointed out promotions have no problem putting over Liger and then listed Mysterio and Malenko in WCW...
Mysterio and Malenko were not on the same level as Foley's prime in WWE. So gonna take the sadistic Mankind. And hey folks, announce table spots are allowed in normal matches!
Brawling would be a non-issue. Even beyond imposed match limitations the tougher versions of Foley are somewhat moot points. Alluding to Shocky's post, if one was to play the Faces of Foley card please believe that Liger also has distinct personas and variations on his gimmick. Jushin Liger→Fire Liger→Thunder Liger→Battle Liger→Kishin Liger etc. Hell, the only way Liger was put down in his almost demonic Kishin form was to have a burning, almost paralyzing mist agent sprayed in his face by an even more evil bastard (Muta).
The main point though is that Foley is somewhat one dimensional and his only obvious "advantage" is that he's bigger, both in height and weight. He's not SCSA, Rock, Cena, HHH, big. He's wide-load, fat-ass, bad-back, busted-knees, can't breath big. He's 6'2" 287lbs., little of which is muscle. He's not powerful or even strong for his size. Rather, even in his best shape he was self-admittedly slow and physically unimpressive. The only way he could really use his weight was to toss it off things –usually incapacitating himself in the process. He's a comparatively bigger guy with practically none of the bigger guy advantages and all the weaknesses and limitations.
Liger, on the other hand, is a more akin to a big guy trapped in a relatively shorter frame. Not about to fold in half like the skinny cruiserweights do, Liger is made of sterner stuff. Much like the Benoit's, Angle's and Taz's of the business Liger has no problem tossing bigger guys around when he decides to. Lots of strengths (figuratively and literally) and few, if any, of the "smaller guy" weaknesses.
p.s. Liger's mask'll make it harder to properly apply Socko/mandible claw.
It's a shame for Thunder, but most people here have probably never seen him in action in his greatest matches. Mick Foley, on the other hand, is a household name and a legend of the sport. For all those who talk about Foley's physique, he was still proficient in the ring and was able to hit moves that looked absolutely devastating.
As far as the match goes, I see it being Mankind getting the upper hand for the most of the match as Thunder sells his heart out. The tide turns and Liger is on the offensive, getting in some incredible offense. That being said, its a WWE ring and there's no way Liger goes over on Foley, even if he were a heel like Mankind.
Oh, I guess it's about time for the required make up what happens in the match out of thin air post. Okay, lemme give it a shot.
The bell rings: Foley charges, surprising Liger with a burst of speed (relatively speaking of course), getting in his face punches to the corner and running knee. Foley pick JTL up out of the corner, shoots him off the center of the rope and get a surprise of his own when Liger ducks the brawler's clothes line, bounces back, slides through Mick's legs getting behind him to execute a textbook German suplex.
Standing the New York Times List Best Selling Author up on to his feet, Liger hammers him into the turnbuckles and soon follows with a rolling Koppu Kick to the already not so pretty face of Foley. Liger, now firmly on the offensive, goes for (one of) Foley's weak links and performs a sitting Indian deathlock. For good measure he slaps Foley in the face a couple of times just cause he can.
Liger eventually lets off the hold allowing Foley a moment to recoup. Mick still angry from the slaps, but needing a moment, catches Liger with a gut kick; he follows it up with some stiff shots to the masked face of Liger and dumps him to the outside.
In a complete haze, Liger takes a moment to get to his feet just in time to see Foley's rotund physique fly through the air in an attempted elbow drop. As he's known to do, Mick misses spectacularly.
A bit of a high-flyer himself Liger climbs to the apron and connects with a somersault senton. Realizing the American's ample frame can absorb ample pain due to all that protective fat Liger decides to attack the decidedly more svelte cranial region. He exposes the cement floor, crushes Foley's face between his thighs, and sits out for a solid piledriver replete with accompanying "sickening thud".
They both lay there for a good moment.
Just shy of a count-out, the Thunderous Beast God [roughly translated from the Japanese] tosses Mick back in the ring under the bottom rope. Liger begins what he believes to be the end of the match. Ready to pour on the pain and end the contest with a bang, Liger sets up for a vicious Ligerbomb.
Foley not as out as one might assume, surprisingly still has the wherewithal to counter and dump Jushin up, over and flat onto his back. Seeing a prime time to strike, Foley prepares the double arm DDT, connects and goes for the 12thr kickout! Pulling out the "big gun" it's mandible claw time.
Unfortunately the foreigner's mask, with it's tiny mouth opening, doesn't provide the space needed to properly secure the hold. This miscalculation buys Liger just enough time to land a gut kick of his own, releasing the hold and allowing him to rear back towards the ropes, building time and momentum enough to cock back his left arm and level the big man with a devastating Shotei palm thrust.
Liger now knowing to capitalize on the already incapacitated caput of Foley, immediately picks him up and delivers an almost perfectly vertical brainbuster. Confident in his impending win Liger goes for the pin, hooking the leg to be sure, and gets the shock of his life when Mick's superhuman defense mechanisms kick him out of the pin as if on auto pilot.
Resigning himself to the match's necessary conclusion, Liger pulls out a move he hasn't done in years. He drags Foley's almost mindless body to the top rope, secures the neck and spikes his opponent's head into the mat with a Super top rope DDT. As the referee shouts "ONE TWO THREE!" all Jushin Thunder Liger thinks about is the gaijin's amazing fighting spirit and the potentially life-long brain damage he's just inflicted on Mrs. Foley's (too stubborn to quit) baby boy.
Gotta give it to Liger. This is similar to the Race/RVD match to me, with the better talent coming to another promotion to make a name. Foley is many people stepping stone to greatness, & I would see this being no different.
I would say Foley's prime would be around his 1st fued with Taker. And I could definitely see Liger taking the victory in WWE for business purposes:
1. To sell Japanese masks to impressionable children
2. To kickstart the Light Heavyweight Division & give it a strong face.
3. The better worker should always go over.
Vote Liger
If it's just Mick Foley, as Mick Foley, I agree with everyone else that Jushin Thunder Liger would come out on top. But, when was Mick Foley in his prime? Was it as Cactus Jack? Was it as Mankind? Which version of Mankind? If Mick Foley's prime is his initial run as Mankind, and not the jokey 2nd version, I am no longer so sure. As Mankind, Mick Foley scored a lot of wins over guys that would all be considered vastly superior wrestlers. If Mick/Mankind could ever get Liger in a position to apply the Mandible Claw, Liger's overall wrestling superiority would be irrelevant. The Mandible Claw was a great equalizer for Mick/Mankind. Mick/Mankind went almost half an hour against HBK, a much faster, more agile, superior opponent, just like Liger.
This is an interesting matchup, because to me, the results largely would depend on which Mick Foley you get.
Basically, I would argue that this version of Mick Foley is going to be a hell of a lot tougher to beat than Cactus Jack, Dude Love, the 2nd version of Mankind (with the tie and "have a nice day shirt" etc, or just sweatpants wearing Mick Foley. Doesn't mean that I would think Mick would win, but I don't think it would be quite the cakewalk for Liger as some think. This version of Mick Foley would not only stand a chance, but I can see him winning under certain circumstances, even in a non-hardcore match.
I voted Liger, but this bit of information makes me question whether I made the right choice or not. If we're talking about Mankind or Cactus Jack vs Jushin Liger that's a whole other story than the broke down current version, Dude Love, the 2nd Mankind , or any other version of Mick Foley prior to the current. That's a really good argument about the mandible claw as well. The main thing that stand out to me about Mankind specifically is the fact that the character of Mankind was damn near indestructible and could take the most ridiculous amounts of pain and punishment ever. Let's not forget the HIAC with Undertaker. If this assholes goes off the top of a cell through the tables and comes back to fight Taker, I can't imagine the level of damage Liger would have to inflict to put down Mankind who only needs that one opportunity to apply the mandible claw. Either way, before it got to that, one would have to assume that with all of "His Ligerness' " ridiculous catalog of moves, superior athleticism, and taking into consideration his own legacy, I find it as no stretch of the imagination for him to win outright.
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