WWE is moving into the next generation, but are they leaving RAW behind?

[SJM12492]

Now, I'd like to point out that I haven't been watching ECW for a while, but even so, I've noticed that they have been changing.

SD! at the moment is getting to the point where it's becoming more interesting then RAW. SD! are giving different storylines for midcarders and helping them climb the WWE ladder, where as RAW seems to use the same superstars with the same dull storylines. At the moment, Triple H is fueding with Randy Orton, but it seems to be dragging along with no conclusion in sight. They need to throw in some curve-balls and mix it up a little. So far, all I've seen is Batista get thrown in the mix, and that was months ago... It's also come to my attention that the writers are basically taking a shit on Batista's championship status. Look at the last 3 championships he had, all 3 of them haven't even extended 10 days. World Heavyweight Championship, World Tag Tem Championship and his first WWE Championship. It also confuses me that how come a week after Orton cost Batista his title, he's put into a match for it, that makes no sense at all. It's also bugging me that they are using the same people on the roster over and over for championship matches (HHH, Orton, Cena, Show, Batista). Throw in some other guys, mix it up a little, I'm not saying that they should win, but at least give them a chance to prove that they can hang with the main eventers, guy's like MVP, Kofi Kingston... It also doesn't help that they are gramming RAW with all the guys with alternative gimmicks, like Hornswoggle, Festus being thrown in together rather then spred out.

The reason why I'm enjoying SD! is that it's entering a new age era giving guys like Haas, Benjamin, Morrison, R-Truth, Dolph Ziggler (have you met him yet?) legitimate matches and even a couple of fueds. Plus the main event league has been shaken up, with the fued of CM Punk and Jeff Hardy which I'm really enjoying. Plus the Jericho and Mysterio fued was great! I loved when Rey jumped from the crowd with 2 other guys who looked like him and jumped Jericho, that's the kind of thinking and curve-balls I'm talking about. Plus I hear that there are new guys like David Hart Smith and Tyson Kidd coming in, and I predict nothing but good things for these guys. Let's hope that SD! can keep it fresh, and not repetative like RAW is at the moment.

On ECW, they got some new guys and potentials that could make a career for themselves, which I am very excited to see what happens with these guys... So what do you guys think?

 

[Razor]

SD! at the moment is getting to the point where it's becoming more interesting then RAW. SD! are giving different storylines for midcarders and helping them climb the WWE ladder, where as RAW seems to use the same superstars with the same dull storylines.

Well. Cena is feuding with Miz. That's a new feud. Swagger and Mark Henry jumping over is going to start at least 2 new feuds right there. The mid-card is dead, but that's because Raw doesn't have a mid-card. It's basically Kofi Kingston. That's right. The entire mid-card = Kofi Kingston.

But really, you can't slam Raw for not moving people up the ladder. MVP is getting moved up, Swagger and Henry are moved from ECW to start some shit. Miz was moved up as well. Kofi wasn't because someone has to anchor the mid-card. What, you want people just jammed into the main-event without getting over with the crowd? Not everyone is Brock Lesnar.

At the moment, Triple H is fueding with Randy Orton, but it seems to be dragging along with no conclusion in sight. They need to throw in some curve-balls and mix it up a little. So far, all I've seen is Batista get thrown in the mix, and that was months ago...

The Orton/Triple H feud is shit. I'll give you that. But that's because they didn't build Legacy correctly. When everyone only cares about 1 of the 3 memebers of a heel stable, the feud they're involved in won't matter.

It's also come to my attention that the writers are basically taking a shit on Batista's championship status. Look at the last 3 championships he had, all 3 of them haven't even extended 10 days. World Heavyweight Championship, World Tag Tem Championship and his first WWE Championship. It also confuses me that how come a week after Orton cost Batista his title, he's put into a match for it, that makes no sense at all.

Well. How many people have had a championship reign longer than a month or so lately? Orton? Maybe?

Orton cost Batista his title, so Batista can't get a rematch? That doesn't make sense. Unless you're saying Orton got a shot after costing Batista his championship. Then that's just Guerrero making whomever she wants Number One contender.

It's also bugging me that they are using the same people on the roster over and over for championship matches (HHH, Orton, Cena, Show, Batista). Throw in some other guys, mix it up a little, I'm not saying that they should win, but at least give them a chance to prove that they can hang with the main eventers, guy's like MVP, Kofi Kingston...

The mainevent is used to sell PPVs and tickets. You can't just start shoving mid-carders up there and expect to keep PPV sales high. They're low enough as it is with proven draws at the top. You have to do it slowly, like what WWE is doing with Miz vs. Cena. Then when Cena is done with Miz, he'll either start feuding for that title or find someone else to feud with a move them up. Probs Swagger. Unless he's still all up on the US title I hope he wins.

It also doesn't help that they are gramming RAW with all the guys with alternative gimmicks, like Hornswoggle, Festus being thrown in together rather then spred out.

Comedy angles, really. That's all Raw is. Main event promo, random match, comedy angle, hour one main event. Random match, comedy angle, Hour Two main event.

But it's not crammed to the brink with Comedy gimmicks. The Swoggle, Santino. That's about it. Goldust got moved, and Festus hasn't even on TV for longer than a one off tag match.

The reason why I'm enjoying SD! is that it's entering a new age era giving guys like Haas, Benjamin, Morrison, R-Truth, Dolph Ziggler (have you met him yet?) legitimate matches and even a couple of fueds. Plus the main event league has been shaken up, with the fued of CM Punk and Jeff Hardy which I'm really enjoying.

If you're patient, they're trying to shake up the main-event. Miz is moving up, they're probably going to add a face Mark Henry or MVP soon. Hooold on. Patience.

Plus the Jericho and Mysterio fued was great! I loved when Rey jumped from the crowd with 2 other guys who looked like him and jumped Jericho, that's the kind of thinking and curve-balls I'm talking about. Plus I hear that there are new guys like David Hart Smith and Tyson Kidd coming in, and I predict nothing but good things for these guys. Let's hope that SD! can keep it fresh, and not repetative like RAW is at the moment.

David Hart Smith and Tyson Kidd haven't even been here for 3 months, and people are already orgasming all over them. I'll never understand.


People need patience. You know, that thing where you wait for things to pan out. Judging storylines before they even start, wanting their favorite mid-carder straight into the main-event, blah blah blah. If everyone would just wait and let Raw fix their main-event, which is what Cena is doing right at the moment, then in a few months everyone will be singing the praises of Raw once more. Patience young Padawan. Seriously.

 

[GSM]

SD! at the moment is getting to the point where it's becoming more interesting then RAW. SD! are giving different storylines for midcarders and helping them climb the WWE ladder, where as RAW seems to use the same superstars with the same dull storylines.

Yes SD is more entertaining and has the better booking and fresh pairings like Jericho Vs Mysterio and hell even Khali became entertaining.

At the moment, Triple H is fueding with Randy Orton, but it seems to be dragging along with no conclusion in sight.

That storyline was meant to be THE stroyline of the year but too many matches between these two and so often isn´t really aiding that purpose. It became too fast very stale.

It's also come to my attention that the writers are basically taking a shit on Batista's championship status.

Batista is so over he really doesn´t need a title, and right now he´s injured so it wouldn´t make sense to let him keep the title when he´s not competing in the next months.

It's also bugging me that they are using the same people on the roster over and over for championship matches (HHH, Orton, Cena, Show, Batista). Throw in some other guys, mix it up a little, I'm not saying that they should win, but at least give them a chance to prove that they can hang with the main eventers, guy's like MVP, Kofi Kingston...

So they should put in MVP and Kofi even though they don´t have to win ? That´s a little bit ... not good.
MVP and Kofi might have talent but put them in the mainevent that quick ? MVP paid his dues I admitt that but it is still too early to let him go over HHH or Cena and making him lose to them as you said is destroying the credibility they built up so far, they have to climb the ladder, ok and don´t bring up Lesnar or anything like that, he was a phenom and really much better than Kofi and even MVP.

It also doesn't help that they are gramming RAW with all the guys with alternative gimmicks, like Hornswoggle, Festus being thrown in together rather then spred out.

Well, at least they give them something to do, otherwise they would be fired and I´m not the kind of guy who says that someone should be fired just because I don´t like the performers. Are you ?

The reason why I'm enjoying SD! is that it's entering a new age era giving guys like Haas, Benjamin, Morrison, R-Truth, Dolph Ziggler (have you met him yet?) legitimate matches and even a couple of fueds.

True words, SD is making new stars and they are doing a good job, Ziggler is really a big talent and so is Morrison but Benjamin and Haas ? These guys have been around for some time and they don´t get the job done, why ? They´re boring.

Plus the main event league has been shaken up, with the fued of CM Punk and Jeff Hardy which I'm really enjoying. Plus the Jericho and Mysterio fued was great! I loved when Rey jumped from the crowd with 2 other guys who looked like him and jumped Jericho, that's the kind of thinking and curve-balls I'm talking about.

Agreed, They really are improving the mainevent booking itself, RAW really needs this kind of stuff right now. They tried to be innovative with the Orton/HHH feud but it just felt like a bad Austin/Pillman copy.

Plus I hear that there are new guys like David Hart Smith and Tyson Kidd coming in, and I predict nothing but good things for these guys. Let's hope that SD! can keep it fresh, and not repetative like RAW is at the moment.

They have a long way to go, but if they don´t screw up they might have a bright future but I said the same thing for Kenny Dykstra and where is he now ? Gone.

 

[tj177mmi]

Exactly, its an ever revolving door. It goes through cycles where WWE has to set the Main Event for the next 5-10 years. Right now is a low point for the main event scene, but given time, it will become a high point again. Its comparable to when Hogan, Nash, Hall, and them guys left, WWE had to create stars in Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, The Undertaker. You can't just thrust guys into the main event scene and make them legit. It won't get over with the fans and then the Championship effect will haunt them.

They didn't thrust Kurt Angle into the Main Event Championship scene right off. Kurt was one of the quickest risers because he played his character so well. Look at Chris Benoit. He was given the WCW Title, but came to WWE and had to build himself back up, get over, and his win was accepted. If he had come over and quickly won the WWE Title, it wouldn't have been accepted.

And that's what they are doing now. Creating stars that get over in the main event scene that are the future of the company. Its like TBK getting thrusted into that scramble match when he was on SD. No one accepted it because they didn't believe it. If you just thrust someone into the main event scene and the fans don't accept it, you basically ruin that person's career. Look at Khali, Kozlov, Mike Knox, Umaga. No one buys them very much because they were thrusted into the main event scene before they were ready, and fans resisted them as real threats.

 

[Nev]

I do somewhat agree with you, RAW is being left behind.

I also noticed the downpour in the ratings for SD! and ECW. It's time for RAW to catch up and catch on fast. I don't know what's holding the WWE back.

 

[ipswichicon80]

Thr Raw main event scene is stale. There's no getting round it. The fact Mark henry might be being moved into it doesn't excite me at all. It's just someone else who is past there peak(when henry's peak was I'm not sure, I must have blinked and missed it). How many PPV's is he going to sell?I certainly wouldn't part with my cash to see him in the main event. If they are gonna put some one who's not a draw in the main event why not make it a young guy?

Look at the tourny this week on Raw. Why couldn't the miz or MVP gone over? They could have lost in the final but at least that match would have been new and fresh. And think what a win for Miz or MVP could have done for these guy's career's. What did Hunter/Cena's wins do for them? Nothing, it'll soon be forgotton about. All it did was set up a match we've seen before to lead into another match we'll have seen before even(as I suspect) Triple H and Cena both go into the main event.

On the subject of Cena "saving" the main event scene, how? It's not fresh as he's been in the main event picture for the last four years and has had no character development since(if anything they've taken away from his character not added to it).A heel turn for Cena would certainly shake things up and encourage me to watch.

In credit to WWE creative at least the miz and MVP looked competitive in thier matches. But a win for one of them would have really shown me WWE were serouis about creating new stars not protecting old ones.

 

[fktizle]

When you have Cena, Triple H, and Orton on the same damn show, your always going to have the same main events. I really only watch RAW at this point. I have to much to do on Tuesday or Friday, not including I work, but as far as RAW, it's not going to get better unless Cena turns heel, or someone is moved to a different show. I damn sure would love to see Orton vs. Edge, Orton vs. Punk, and Orton vs. Hardy. I would watch SD! if he went over there. As for RAW, if someone needs a push, it's MVP. The guy is damn sure ready for the belt. All he needs is one more impressive feud. Cena needs to stay feuding with younger talent, and Triple H needs to do the same, even if they are also in the title hunt.

 

[Razor]

Thr Raw main event scene is stale. There's no getting round it. The fact Mark henry might be being moved into it doesn't excite me at all. It's just someone else who is past there peak(when henry's peak was I'm not sure, I must have blinked and missed it). How many PPV's is he going to sell?I certainly wouldn't part with my cash to see him in the main event. If they are gonna put some one who's not a draw in the main event why not make it a young guy?

Because Henry gets a reaction. Did you hear the crowd shake last Monday? That was Henry working it with Orton. That's the big difference between Henry and MVP/Miz. People give a bigger shit about him.

Look at the tourny this week on Raw. Why couldn't the miz or MVP gone over? They could have lost in the final but at least that match would have been new and fresh. And think what a win for Miz or MVP could have done for these guy's career's. What did Hunter/Cena's wins do for them? Nothing, it'll soon be forgotton about. All it did was set up a match we've seen before to lead into another match we'll have seen before even(as I suspect) Triple H and Cena both go into the main event.

Because no one would have believed that Miz could seriously beat Cena. He'd go on to face Triple H this week, and no one would believe it. Cena did what he could to get Miz over, and still win in the end.

It comes down to the fact that Triple H and Cena are former world champions. They are not going to be beaten by upper mid-carders in some one-off match. There's gotta be a feud behind it. You know, like with what Cena is doing with the Miz right now.

On the subject of Cena "saving" the main event scene, how? It's not fresh as he's been in the main event picture for the last four years and has had no character development since(if anything they've taken away from his character not added to it).A heel turn for Cena would certainly shake things up and encourage me to watch.

I said that. Name's Razorback. How do ya do?

Another "Cena needs 2 turn heelz" argument. /facepalm

Cena is saving the main event by doing what needs to be done. Building the newest addition, Miz, and making the crowd think Miz is main-event material. What would have happened if the Miz just popped into the main event? The crowd wouldn't have given half a shit. But this feud with Cena will end with everyone knowing that Miz gave Cena a run for his money and can hold it with the big dogs.

If you don't believe me, see Swagger's match with Cena. No one knew who the fuck Swagger was, honestly. In that match Cena made everyone instantly think Swagger was a threat. Because Cena is that damn good.

In credit to WWE creative at least the miz and MVP looked competitive in thier matches. But a win for one of them would have really shown me WWE were serouis about creating new stars not protecting old ones.

You want wins that make no sense.

Miz, a tag team champion only, going over Cena, a former world champion? Bullshit.

MVP, a mid-card champion, going over Triple H, a former world champion? Bullshit.

You have to have feuds that build up Miz and MVP as legitimate main-event before they can go over Cena or Triple H. Miz will get the pin on Cena at the end of their feud. MVP needs a main-event heel to feud with that isn't fucking around with Triple H though. My money's on Big Show.

 

[Sasori]

I agree 100%. RAW is getting extremly stale at this point. And they are taking a dump on guys like Kofi and Miz. But think about this, RAW now has Jack Swagger, Evan Bourne, and Mark Henry! And I heard rumors about Henry becoming a top baby face, and Jack Swagger should obviously be a main eventer sooner or later, and Evan Bourne can have some really good matches, so watch RAW for a couple of weeks, and than say its stale please. And I like Smackdown better too, Jeff Hardy looked like a ******ed dumbass when he faked that injury LOL 'MAH EYE!'

 

[SinCityBlitz]

If you don't believe me, see Swagger's match with Cena. No one knew who the fuck Swagger was, honestly. In that match Cena made everyone instantly think Swagger was a threat. Because Cena is that damn good.

What?!? Anyone who was into wrestling already knew who Swagger was. The only people who didn't know about him were the ones who didn't watch ECW . The guy was already being billed as a future main eventer.


BTW Cena is not that damn good. Which is why a lot of fans can't stand him.

 

[ipswichicon80]

Because Henry gets a reaction. Did you hear the crowd shake last Monday? That was Henry working it with Orton. That's the big difference between Henry and MVP/Miz. People give a bigger shit about him.

So Miz isn't booed out the building almost every time he appears? He gets a big reaction.Will people giving a shit about henry long term? It remains to be seen. As A heel Miz gets a far bigger reaction then henry ever has in over ten years.

Because no one would have believed that Miz could seriously beat Cena. He'd go on to face Triple H this week, and no one would believe it. Cena did what he could to get Miz over, and still win in the end.

Why wouldn't people believe it? What Cena did to help Miz get over was have Miz dominate most of the match,people seemed to buy that. Is it that much of a jump to buying him winning with a roll up or small package. It doesn't need to be a descicive win. It would still give the Miz something to crow about.

It comes down to the fact that Triple H and Cena are former world champions. They are not going to be beaten by upper mid-carders in some one-off match. There's gotta be a feud behind it. You know, like with what Cena is doing with the Miz right now.

Another "Cena needs 2 turn heelz" argument. /facepalm[QUOTE}

I'm not saying Cena NEEDS to turn heel. He doesn't need to do anything. He is clearly over with WWE's target audience and could probaly stay over with the same character for years to come. IMO it would just give more new and interesting creative possibilities. Surely even Cena himself would welcome a fresh challenge?

If you don't believe me, see Swagger's match with Cena. No one knew who the fuck Swagger was, honestly. In that match Cena made everyone instantly think Swagger was a threat. Because Cena is that damn good.

I'll youtube it and get back to you.

You want wins that make no sense.

Miz, a tag team champion only, going over Cena, a former world champion? Bullshit.

MVP, a mid-card champion, going over Triple H, a former world champion? Bullshit.

You have to have feuds that build up Miz and MVP as legitimate main-event before they can go over Cena or Triple H. Miz will get the pin on Cena at the end of their feud. MVP needs a main-event heel to feud with that isn't fucking around with Triple H though. My money's on Big Show.

So Miz going over Cena would be bullshit on the grounds he is only a former tag champ and Cena is a multi time world champ, correct? Then is Miz going to win the world title inbetwen now and the end of his fued with Cena to justify him getting the pin you predict. If not then surely that result would be..well bullshit!

MVP a former US champ going over someone, who the night before competed in a gruelling 3 stages of hell match is Bullshit. Again it could have been a roll up or inside cradle. THe fact is any sort of win over Hunter at this stage would be a great thing to have on his(MVP's) CV. The fact is nethier Cena or Hunter would have been hurt by a loss on Monday, because they ARE, main eventers and fromer world champs. They're reputations can't be harmed from one non PPV loss. I admit it didn't hurt Miz or MVP to lose but it wasn't of much benifit to Cena or Triple H ethier. It would have greatly benifited MVP or Miz though.

Just a thought on people saying that Hunter or Cena NEEDS to be in the main event to sell the PPV. Why? Edge and Y2J are big draws they'll be on the card. Rey as IC champ will sell PPV's and Jeff vs CM punk will also sell PPV's(not least because it is likely to be Hardy's last night in the company,at least for a while). So I would argue this would have been a perfect PPV to try someone untested in the main event spot. Are you really telling me people are going to really shell out to watch yet another PPV match between Orton and Triple H? With Cena in the title match it's more likely,as,whilst it's not new,it hasn't been done to death and looked like the two men were at a simaliar level of ability as opposed to the Orton/Hunter fued.

 

[Razor]

So Miz isn't booed out the building almost every time he appears? He gets a big reaction.Will people giving a shit about henry long term? It remains to be seen. As A heel Miz gets a far bigger reaction then henry ever has in over ten years.

They boo him, sure. But that's when he's facing Cena. Put against any other face, and see if he pulls the same reaction. He wasn't on ECW, I can tell you that.

Why wouldn't people believe it? What Cena did to help Miz get over was have Miz dominate most of the match,people seemed to buy that. Is it that much of a jump to buying him winning with a roll up or small package. It doesn't need to be a descicive win. It would still give the Miz something to crow about.

No, they wouldn't. Because Miz was just squashed that Sunday before. Like, 24 hours before that match, Miz was SQUASHED. Go ahead, have a win after that. No one would ever believe it.

They believed Cena vs. Miz on Raw because Cena told them too. After that match, Miz will be believed as a true contender against Cena. But before that match? No way in hell.

I'm not saying Cena NEEDS to turn heel. He doesn't need to do anything. He is clearly over with WWE's target audience and could probaly stay over with the same character for years to come. IMO it would just give more new and interesting creative possibilities. Surely even Cena himself would welcome a fresh challenge?

You so completely did:

A heel turn for Cena would certainly shake things up and encourage me to watch.

If that's not asking for a Cena heel turn, then what is?

So Miz going over Cena would be bullshit on the grounds he is only a former tag champ and Cena is a multi time world champ, correct? Then is Miz going to win the world title inbetwen now and the end of his fued with Cena to justify him getting the pin you predict. If not then surely that result would be..well bullshit!

Oh my god. Pay attention to what I fucking post, please.

I said:

You have to have feuds that build up Miz and MVP as legitimate main-event before they can go over Cena or Triple H. Miz will get the pin on Cena at the end of their feud. MVP needs a main-event heel to feud with that isn't fucking around with Triple H though. My money's on Big Show.

Miz will be believable as a wrestler who can defeat Cena at the end of this feud. But not before. He's only ever been a tag-team champion, and he's going against a former World Champion. He needs a feud with Cena that communicates to the crowd he CAN defeat Cena. Which is happening right at the moment.

MVP a former US champ going over someone, who the night before competed in a gruelling 3 stages of hell match is Bullshit. Again it could have been a roll up or inside cradle. THe fact is any sort of win over Hunter at this stage would be a great thing to have on his(MVP's) CV. The fact is nethier Cena or Hunter would have been hurt by a loss on Monday, because they ARE, main eventers and fromer world champs. They're reputations can't be harmed from one non PPV loss. I admit it didn't hurt Miz or MVP to lose but it wasn't of much benifit to Cena or Triple H ethier. It would have greatly benifited MVP or Miz though.

For Triple H to lose to MVP, a former US champ, is ludicrous. Was Triple H even really worn out by those 3 Stages of Hell? He was looking rather good to me at the end of that PPV. Posing and all that stuff.

Just a thought on people saying that Hunter or Cena NEEDS to be in the main event to sell the PPV. Why? Edge and Y2J are big draws they'll be on the card. Rey as IC champ will sell PPV's and Jeff vs CM punk will also sell PPV's(not least because it is likely to be Hardy's last night in the company,at least for a while). So I would argue this would have been a perfect PPV to try someone untested in the main event spot. Are you really telling me people are going to really shell out to watch yet another PPV match between Orton and Triple H? With Cena in the title match it's more likely,as,whilst it's not new,it hasn't been done to death and looked like the two men were at a simaliar level of ability as opposed to the Orton/Hunter fued.

Yes. They've been doing it for months already. They'll keep doing it.

Yes, they do. Because Hardy and Punk and Edge are the top stars of a show that is carried by a handful of tv providers at best. Raw is the main carrying force behind the WWE machine. So, it'd clearly follow that their top stars would be on the PPV. Just so happens, that's basically Orton/Triple H/Cena right now. HBK when he comes back. and soon Miz once Cena gets done making the crowd believe he's good enough for the main-event.

What?!? Anyone who was into wrestling already knew who Swagger was. The only people who didn't know about him were the ones who didn't watch ECW . The guy was already being billed as a future main eventer.

How many people watch ECW? I rest my case.

But to argue further, he'd been around how long? 5 months at the most? When you've spent 5 months on ECW, you're relatively unknown.

BTW Cena is not that damn good. Which is why a lot of fans can't stand him.

A lot of fans can't stand him? Where? When? When they're buying those tickets to see him? Watching Raw for him? Oh, you must mean when they're buying the PPVs he's on.

 

[Watsonation]

raw should've moved either:
orton
cena
or HHH in the trade.
bring in swagger and boom!
you can have swagger & orton as heels
and cena & henry as faces..
i think swagger will start to carry raw before to long...
before the year is over...
i think, the face or raw will be swagger,
smackdown will be run by morrison,
and ecw will have christian..
with edge out now, this opens up a HUGE gap in smackdown, that can easily be filled by ziggler, morrison, r-truth, or one of the hart dynasty members..WITH TIME.
smackdown is number one by far, ecw is pretty good to have nothing now, and raw has all that you'd need but still isn't getting the job done..

 

[ipswichicon80]

They boo him, sure. But that's when he's facing Cena. Put against any other face, and see if he pulls the same reaction. He wasn't on ECW, I can tell you that.

He got that reaction when he came out and mocked Goldust and Hornswaggle. I'm not denying the association has helped Miz,but working with main event talent will elavate anyone get more of a reaction. It doesn't mean Miz isn't a big part of the reaction he gets.


No, they wouldn't. Because Miz was just squashed that Sunday before. Like, 24 hours before that match, Miz was SQUASHED. Go ahead, have a win after that. No one would ever believe it.

They believed Cena vs. Miz on Raw because Cena told them too. After that match, Miz will be believed as a true contender against Cena. But before that match? No way in hell.

So the Miz gets no credit at all for his more aggressive style and good in ring showing. It was all down to Cena?

You so completely did:

Oh my god pay attenion to what I fucking post please!
I never wants stated that he NEEDS to turn heel. I said IMO it would open more doors and make ME want to watch. However I am not the target audience,I'm a very small portion of it in fact. So Cena does not need to turn heel. It's just something I personally would like to see.

Oh my god. Pay attention to what I fucking post, please.

I said:

Miz will be believable as a wrestler who can defeat Cena at the end of this feud. But not before. He's only ever been a tag-team champion, and he's going against a former World Champion. He needs a feud with Cena that communicates to the crowd he CAN defeat Cena. Which is happening right at the moment.

Yes but before that you said:

Miz, a tag team champion only, going over Cena, a former world champion? Bullshit.

The fact you changed your mind half way though your post and realised that statement was foolish is your fault not mine.

For Triple H to lose to MVP, a former US champ, is ludicrous. Was Triple H even really worn out by those 3 Stages of Hell? He was looking rather good to me at the end of that PPV. Posing and all that stuff.

Sigh. And as WWE keeps reminding us he is superman!(not getting at you btw more WWE).
However the commentaters did refer to his condition due to said match at the end of his MVP match(I didn't see it personally,due to that segment of Raw being MIA on youtube,just the end,which is also where I heard it was a hard fought match.

Yes, they do. Because Hardy and Punk and Edge are the top stars of a show that is carried by a handful of tv providers at best. Raw is the main carrying force behind the WWE machine. So, it'd clearly follow that their top stars would be on the PPV. Just so happens, that's basically Orton/Triple H/Cena right now. HBK when he comes back. and soon Miz once Cena gets done making the crowd believe he's good enough for the main-event.

I do take your point on this. It's just the "night of champions" thing means WWE are limited as to what they can put on.They could have featured a match(invovling Hunter and Cena) in as the main draw, and still tried an untested guy in the title match but they were boxed in by there own rules.
I do understand the big stars need to be on the PPV to sell to the masses,It's just...Would you have rather seen a Big Show/Hunter/Cena/Swagger 4 way match for the number 1 contenders position at the next PPV or the Divas title defended? The concept of the PPV sucks.

Also I watched Cena vs Swagger(on a extremly poor quaility youtube vid) and whilst I never believed Swagger could win he did look competitive. I'd love to see them given more time at a later date as they have the poteniel for a classic.

 

[Razor]

He got that reaction when he came out and mocked Goldust and Hornswaggle. I'm not denying the association has helped Miz,but working with main event talent will elavate anyone get more of a reaction. It doesn't mean Miz isn't a big part of the reaction he gets.

Oh, so he got that reaction from going against two faces who are beloved by the crowd as well. You can't tell me Goldust and The Swoggle aren't over. He's a heel pushing around a Leprechaun and a big gold man, he's going to get booed. And now he's fucking with Cena, a man who the crowd loves infinitely more than him. Most of that reaction for Cena, not Miz. Miz is helping, but it's mostly the fact that he's feuding with Cena.

You can't honestly say that's all Miz until he has a feud that isn't with the biggest face on Raw.

So the Miz gets no credit at all for his more aggressive style and good in ring showing. It was all down to Cena?

Miz was SQUASHED the night before. The crowd only believed Miz could do anything against Cena because Cena made them believe Miz could. Cena looked like he was getting beat. I'm not saying Miz just sat there while Cena told everyone what was going on, but that entire match's story was based upon Cena selling correctly. Which he did.

Oh my god pay attenion to what I fucking post please!
I never wants stated that he NEEDS to turn heel. I said IMO it would open more doors and make ME want to watch. However I am not the target audience,I'm a very small portion of it in fact. So Cena does not need to turn heel. It's just something I personally would like to see.

OK, so we're arguing semantics. You say you'd "like to see him turn heel, but not really." I say that's the same as saying he should turn heel. Oh well.

Yes but before that you said:
Miz, a tag team champion only, going over Cena, a former world champion? Bullshit.

The fact you changed your mind half way though your post and realised that statement was foolish is your fault not mine.

You're not reading again. I never once changed my mind. I said, in that post, that right at the time of that championship tourney the Miz wouldn't be believable with a win over Cena because he had been squashed the night before, and Miz was only ever really a tag team champion. What they need to make him believable is, oh i don't know...a feud with a main-event talent where he proves he can do just that. And oh ma gawd, that's his feud with Cena.

How saying "Miz is only a mid-card champion, him winning a match Monday against Cena would be unbelievable because he's not built yet" and later saying "He needs to finish the feud with Cena before people will believe Miz as a valid competitor to Cena" is changing my mind, I'll never know.

Also I watched Cena vs Swagger(on a extremly poor quaility youtube vid) and whilst I never believed Swagger could win he did look competitive. I'd love to see them given more time at a later date as they have the poteniel for a classic.

Thank you. Swagger was the champion of ECW, but honestly. It's the ECW title. So him going against a former World Champion, no one expected him to win. So what happened? Cena and Swagger put on a show, and Cena sold it like he was about to lose to Swagger. Swagger was all the better for it. More dominant, even without the win.

Sorta like..you know...Miz and Cena now. Miz wasn't believable as a challenger to Cena. Right up until that Raw match that is. Cena sold Miz' offense like Cena was about to straight up lose that bitch. And the crowd ate it up. Now Miz is all the better for even stepping foot in that match. He's more dominant after that loss than he was 24 hours before, and that's a fact.

 

[Nev]

To further my opinion here...

WWE completely acknowledged they are in a rebuilding period and wanted to build new stars. They also admitted that it would cause a decline in ratings temporarily (the same stuff Linda said back in 2002 after the brand split).

Now, it's pretty obvious Smackdown will never hit a 2.8 to a 3.2 rating like it did 2 years ago.

ECW, if you can bare the name of the show, is obviously a place to see building and future stars.

RAW seems to be the only brand to be lacking in ratings. It's the WWE's flagship show and the management, it seems, are pretty cautious into pushing younger talent for some reason. I guess it's because they feel that if RAW plunges in the ratings, it puts the company in a tough spot.

In other words, ECW & SD! is the safety blanket for the WWE. They can test things out there. Especially ECW.

The WWE team is a bit to afraid to test things out on RAW, because if something backfires, which it usually does, the entire product as a whole can get hurt badly.

 

[YoYoYumba]

Smackdown is definately better at the moment, Raw has been very stale for quiet some time now because like a few people in here have said before, there hasn't been too much changing lately. I honestly can't sit through an entire Raw show now, I only really just watch bits and pieces of it and that's pretty much enough to see whats going on, given the fact that they always have replays of what happened earlier in the night and the commentators letting you know as well. Smackdown just have the better talent, even though they've tried to really put alot of their big stars on Raw. That Trump thing not long ago kinda had me interested but nothing really eventuated from it. To me it seems like something big just has to happen to really make Raw more interesting and I think the WWE really owe it to the fans to try to build up for that something big to happen. I don't know why but I kinda get the feeling that this PG rating has kinda put a block on something major happening and yes I'm not happy with it but I know its going to be around for a while still.....damn it I do agree though with what a few people in here are saying about maybe Cena turning heel, that would be pretty big but I seriously doubt it'll happen. No way Vince would want to jepordise all the merch Cena is selling to alot of the kids who are basically the main target audience for the WWE now. Anway I really hope Raw gets better.

 

[ipswichicon80]

Oh, so he got that reaction from going against two faces who are beloved by the crowd as well. You can't tell me Goldust and The Swoggle aren't over. He's a heel pushing around a Leprechaun and a big gold man, he's going to get booed. And now he's fucking with Cena, a man who the crowd loves infinitely more than him. Most of that reaction for Cena, not Miz. Miz is helping, but it's mostly the fact that he's feuding with Cena.

You can't honestly say that's all Miz until he has a feud that isn't with the biggest face on Raw.




Miz was SQUASHED the night before. The crowd only believed Miz could do anything against Cena because Cena made them believe Miz could. Cena looked like he was getting beat. I'm not saying Miz just sat there while Cena told everyone what was going on, but that entire match's story was based upon Cena selling correctly. Which he did.






OK, so we're arguing semantics. You say you'd "like to see him turn heel, but not really." I say that's the same as saying he should turn heel. Oh well.




You're not reading again. I never once changed my mind. I said, in that post, that right at the time of that championship tourney the Miz wouldn't be believable with a win over Cena because he had been squashed the night before, and Miz was only ever really a tag team champion. What they need to make him believable is, oh i don't know...a feud with a main-event talent where he proves he can do just that. And oh ma gawd, that's his feud with Cena.

How saying "Miz is only a mid-card champion, him winning a match Monday against Cena would be unbelievable because he's not built yet" and later saying "He needs to finish the feud with Cena before people will believe Miz as a valid competitor to Cena" is changing my mind, I'll never know.





Thank you. Swagger was the champion of ECW, but honestly. It's the ECW title. So him going against a former World Champion, no one expected him to win. So what happened? Cena and Swagger put on a show, and Cena sold it like he was about to lose to Swagger. Swagger was all the better for it. More dominant, even without the win.

Sorta like..you know...Miz and Cena now. Miz wasn't believable as a challenger to Cena. Right up until that Raw match that is. Cena sold Miz' offense like Cena was about to straight up lose that bitch. And the crowd ate it up. Now Miz is all the better for even stepping foot in that match. He's more dominant after that loss than he was 24 hours before, and that's a fact.

RE: Cena/Miz. I get your point now. A competitive feud with Cena will build Miz to show he can compete with top line talent. And if there's one thing Cena does well it's sell. It's just your "bullshit" statement made it sound like the only factor in decideing who goes over should be what titles they have worn in the past. Now I understand what your saying.

I still feel however, that you don't give the Miz enough credit. Look again at that hornswoggle segment(I'm not going to argue with you that they are beloved by the crowd, sad as I think that is). See how arrogant,disrespectful and how much of an ******** MIz made himself look. Give the guy credit for playing the heel role well please!

On Cena turning heel. He doesn't NEED to.I'm not argueing semantics with you this time. What Cena Does need is some sort of attitude. His 2003 persona(which, remember is what got him over) has been stripped away and replaced with nothing. He's so bland and boring. I noticed the other day a post where some one claimed he was a guy who "always did the right thing". Really? Blackmailing Vicki to get himself in the mania main event and when she gave him what he wanted he told her secret anyway? (On the subject of logic after Cena sold Vicki out,why did she not remove him from the main event? Oh well never mind). I have no idea what he stands for and think this is something WWE should address.

 

[SJM12492]

Ipswichicon80 and Razorback,

Will you STOP quoting each other about what you both said over and over again. Neither of you are going to win this thing, just because you both might accidently type the wrong thing and jump down each other's throats for it! Keep onto the DAMN thred!

 

[YoYoYumba]

I actually found one thing that Ipswichicon80 to be very true.

On Cena turning heel. He doesn't NEED to.I'm not argueing semantics with you this time. What Cena Does need is some sort of attitude. His 2003 persona(which, remember is what got him over) has been stripped away and replaced with nothing. He's so bland and boring.

.

This is exactly why I like many others do not like Cena and can't stand him. When Cena first came out I actually liked him because he did have some attitude and they the sorta superstars I find entertaining. I understand Cena was turned into a Face but honestly he really did become very boring and really started to suck up to the fans far too much (even for a face) so after a while I just couldn't stand him. I've never seen a guy who is supposed to be a face get booed in so many arena's and lets not forget about how he was treated at the Hall of Fame when he made a speech a while back. I'm not trying to insult you for liking him Razorback but just letting you know that Cena is not as great as you think and there alot of people who don't like him. When you talk about why are people buying tickets to see him and buying pay per views, don't forget there are other stars who the people want to see. I'm sure Cena himself wouldn't even say that everyone just comes to WWE events just to see him and buys pay per views just to see him. Everyone has their own preferences of who they like and what they believe makes someone a great wrestler to watch. Cena is a great entertainer obviously to many people but not everyone. His made alot of money for the WWE and has done his job very well so I'm not arguing that at all. Anyway like I said before, I'm not trying to bash on all the Cena fans here, if you like him, that's fine, enjoy him...his gonna be around for a while..

 

[ipswichicon80]

Ipswichicon80 and Razorback,

Will you STOP quoting each other about what you both said over and over again. Neither of you are going to win this thing, just because you both might accidently type the wrong thing and jump down each other's throats for it! Keep onto the DAMN thred!

So I kinda thought the point of these forums was to say your opinion and say why you think it and to debate and banter with people who disagree. My mistake.

So back to the DAMN thread. I think the main diffrence's between ECW/Smackdown and Raw are:
1.) More wrestling on ECW/SD. Longer, normally better quailty and more of them on ECW/SD.
2.)Fresher main event talent on ECW/SD.
Look at the main event talent on Raw. Cena/Hunter/Orton/. However you rate them as performers they have all been in and around the main event scene for years. And we have seen Triple H vs Orton sooo many times now it doesn't really matter what sort of stip they give it still seems old and stale IMO. I'm willing to bet that two people have never faced each other as many PPV's as these two(Even if you don't count the 6 mans and tag matches).

And it's not like the fueds even competitive. To memory the only time Ortons beaten hunter it's been in tags,with the help of Ted and Cody and when Hunter had already fought twice in one night. How many times has Hunter won clean in one on one matches? I've lost count. Even a definitive win for Orton now can't repair the damage. Fans will always see him as inferoir to Triple H. The problem is Vince apprantly see's Orton as the future(along with Cena) and he's more or less been buried in this fued.

Compare that to Smackdown and ECW. On Ecw you have Jeff and Punk fueding for the title. Jeff is only realetivly new to the main event scene as is Punk. Also you have Y2J and myseterio who have dabbled in the main event scene but never stayed there for longer than a few months. And the prospects for fresh matches and not seen before(or at least not for a while)
fueds! As well as guys like John Morrison! On ECW's main event scene you have Christian(who's been away for a few years, and Dreamer(I'm not really a big fan but again it's a fresh,if old face in the main event scene) and lots of new up and coming talent. WWE does seem to be trying to make new stars on Raw like the Miz,Swagger and MVP but really they should have been doing this a long time ago.