Wrestling transfers

[steveom07]

I apologise if this is in the wrong place but as I know very little about ROH and to a lesser extent TNA i'm basing this on WWE and put it here.

My question is based on what happens in football (soccer) and if it coudl work with wrestling.

I don't know how it works in MLS, NFL or NBA but when a football team wants a player they make a bid agree terms and get him, sometimes involves trades etc.

Do you think in wrestling if say WWE wanted to 'buy' AJ Styles, they would make an offer to TNA and bring him in, ready to compete straight away? It would keep all wrestling companies going money wise, keep the product fresh and the wrestlers fresh mentally.

In WWE there are wrestlers such as Tyler Reks, Zack Ryder and JTG who could do with a fresh start, would it work if WWE 'loaned' them to ROH for a set period so they could develop a character?

Also I know there are issues such as character development, especially with the 'loan' part as the company may not want to give a massive push to someone who they know is leaving. But in terms of ROH it would give them more publicity and WWE fans may tune in to see how that wrestler is getting on?

What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Captain Morgan Freeman]

So what your saying is WWE buy all the best wrestlers off the other companies on permanent deals but the just loan their young talent on temporary deals to other companies.??
If this were to happen WWE would have a monopoly on all the best talent. As soon as TNA/ROH produced a wrestler that gets over WWE would just buy him up like that and tna/roh would be left high and dry and would have to start from square one building talent all over again.
That said i dont think WWE would want to spend the large amount of money to buy talent like AJ styles/beer money. And do Tna need the money? I know Roh could do with but tna are still being bankrolled by dixie carter.

Its a decent idea in principle i just feel that WWE would puposely not sell guys to tna or just ask really high prices for them and vice versa with tna talent to WWE. Besides if a wrestler really wants to leave they can just wind down their contract and sign for another company after the no compete clause is up. Not many wrestlers are on long term contracts unless they really want to stay there for a long time.

 

[steveom07]

So what your saying is WWE buy all the best wrestlers off the other companies on permanent deals but the just loan their young talent on temporary deals to other companies.??

I just used those as examples, but lets face it unless WWE had some major injury situation or something they wouldn't need to loan from those companies.

I'm not saying this is perfect by any stretch of the imagination but as an idea I think it is good.

Plus remember although wrestlers are obviously the reason people watch there are also other things like production and stage set up which require money and the product as a whole could be improved if money was being circulated in this way.

 

[Rayne]

If the WWE was prepared to pay absolutely any price to have AJ Styles start his WWE career on Raw tonight, it would happen. If TNA, AJ Styles, and the WWE all agreed, there are no legal mechanisms which would prevent TNA from voiding AJ Styles' contract under the condition of receiving agreed compensation from the WWE. This could be in terms of money, a "like for like" deal in which wrestlers who also agreed could be transferred to TNA, agreements concerning the ways former talent can be used in their new companies, so on and so forth.

Here's why this won't happen, with AJ or any other wrestler. As far as people below main-event level, most of them are interchangeable. How much does the product really suffer if you don't have a Kaz or a Kofi Kingston? You just use someone else for the job you would have used them for; unless you're top tier, with very few exceptions (none that spring to mind, but I acknowledge the possibility) you wouldn't be terribly missed if you were gone.

With top tier stars, it becomes a "how much do you want him?" game between companies. The WWE has been locking up their biggest names into long-term deals, while they're still relatively young, in order to prevent a Hogan situation where they have to pay a rapidly escalating amount to someone as his popularity shoots through the roof. Let's say TNA wanted to buyout Randy Orton's contract. They'd be going for a signed WWE star because they'd think he'd be an exceptional help to their business. (Don't be distracted by how Orton could help TNA, it's a theoretical example.) That's the dead obvious giveaway for why TNA would pursue him, and the WWE would know that. Having all of the leverage on their side, they'd require a fee from TNA which would defy all rational sense for them to pay. The same would be true if the WWE wanted to pursue AJ Styles. TNA would immediately question the motives of the WWE's purchase, and require compensation with which they think they could do more then than they would by keeping AJ. It's much more efficient to wait for a wrestlers contract to near expiration, then try to tempt them away. (Hence why the WWE is trying to sign their big names to long-term deals, at fair money when you're a young guy, but less then you're worth after they've spent five years of a ten year contract building you. Why do you think CM Punk has cold feet about signing a new contract?)

The only thing that could *possibly* work is a talent loan to smaller companies, and that would be if they were interested in building their brand by promoting a larger company's wrestlers. ROH could get a few more viewers by bringing in Chris Masters and the like a few times a month, but what kind of conditions would WWE or TNA place on them? TNA allows most of their lower-card wrestlers to work for other non-televised promotions as it is, as they are trying to keep the independent contractor line as blurry as possible. (They attempt to own the rights on the characters the actors portray, while keeping themselves away from liability should the wrestlers injure themselves or other people. This Daffney lawsuit is about a LOT more then whether she gets money for being hurt working for TNA- this is about whether wrestlers can be considered independent contractors.) The WWE has a similar arrangement, but since they are on tour so often, and since their wrestlers are paid much more then TNA's, it's unheard of for a WWE wrestler to do indy work. (This is how the WWE is able to treat their wrestlers as independent contractors- that, and the fact that any wrestler who has standing to sue the WWE also knows that if he does, he'll never work there again, ever, and any other televised company is going to look at him suspiciously.)

For TNA/WWE to "loan" out their talent, they'd have to admit they completely own the rights to them, which is a HUGE increase for their liability. The only reason I say a talent loan arrangement could be worked out is if Daffney is successful in her lawsuit. Her winning that would inevitably (although probably not immediately) result in the dismantling of the independent contractor system.

TL;DR version: It would be nice but the legal costs of such would be so high that it wouldn't happen unless the major wrestling companies were forced to it, and that would only happen in the shadow of much larger changes to the industry.

 

[steveom07]

If the WWE was prepared to pay absolutely any price to have AJ Styles start his WWE career on Raw tonight, it would happen. If TNA, AJ Styles, and the WWE all agreed, there are no legal mechanisms which would prevent TNA from voiding AJ Styles' contract under the condition of receiving agreed compensation from the WWE. This could be in terms of money, a "like for like" deal in which wrestlers who also agreed could be transferred to TNA, agreements concerning the ways former talent can be used in their new companies, so on and so forth.

Here's why this won't happen, with AJ or any other wrestler. As far as people below main-event level, most of them are interchangeable. How much does the product really suffer if you don't have a Kaz or a Kofi Kingston? You just use someone else for the job you would have used them for; unless you're top tier, with very few exceptions (none that spring to mind, but I acknowledge the possibility) you wouldn't be terribly missed if you were gone.

With top tier stars, it becomes a "how much do you want him?" game between companies. The WWE has been locking up their biggest names into long-term deals, while they're still relatively young, in order to prevent a Hogan situation where they have to pay a rapidly escalating amount to someone as his popularity shoots through the roof. Let's say TNA wanted to buyout Randy Orton's contract. They'd be going for a signed WWE star because they'd think he'd be an exceptional help to their business. (Don't be distracted by how Orton could help TNA, it's a theoretical example.) That's the dead obvious giveaway for why TNA would pursue him, and the WWE would know that. Having all of the leverage on their side, they'd require a fee from TNA which would defy all rational sense for them to pay. The same would be true if the WWE wanted to pursue AJ Styles. TNA would immediately question the motives of the WWE's purchase, and require compensation with which they think they could do more then than they would by keeping AJ. It's much more efficient to wait for a wrestlers contract to near expiration, then try to tempt them away. (Hence why the WWE is trying to sign their big names to long-term deals, at fair money when you're a young guy, but less then you're worth after they've spent five years of a ten year contract building you. Why do you think CM Punk has cold feet about signing a new contract?)

The only thing that could *possibly* work is a talent loan to smaller companies, and that would be if they were interested in building their brand by promoting a larger company's wrestlers. ROH could get a few more viewers by bringing in Chris Masters and the like a few times a month, but what kind of conditions would WWE or TNA place on them? TNA allows most of their lower-card wrestlers to work for other non-televised promotions as it is, as they are trying to keep the independent contractor line as blurry as possible. (They attempt to own the rights on the characters the actors portray, while keeping themselves away from liability should the wrestlers injure themselves or other people. This Daffney lawsuit is about a LOT more then whether she gets money for being hurt working for TNA- this is about whether wrestlers can be considered independent contractors.) The WWE has a similar arrangement, but since they are on tour so often, and since their wrestlers are paid much more then TNA's, it's unheard of for a WWE wrestler to do indy work. (This is how the WWE is able to treat their wrestlers as independent contractors- that, and the fact that any wrestler who has standing to sue the WWE also knows that if he does, he'll never work there again, ever, and any other televised company is going to look at him suspiciously.)

For TNA/WWE to "loan" out their talent, they'd have to admit they completely own the rights to them, which is a HUGE increase for their liability. The only reason I say a talent loan arrangement could be worked out is if Daffney is successful in her lawsuit. Her winning that would inevitably (although probably not immediately) result in the dismantling of the independent contractor system.

TL;DR version: It would be nice but the legal costs of such would be so high that it wouldn't happen unless the major wrestling companies were forced to it, and that would only happen in the shadow of much larger changes to the industry.

I liked your respose to this and you bring up a lot of interesting points. I must admit I hadn't considered the whole independant contracter side of things, and I admit in the short term (0-5 years) the astronomical fees which would have to be paid would not make business sense.

HOWEVER everything has to start somewhere, in terms of the Daffney situation that lawsuit (although I admit I dont know all the details) could change the way wrestlers in general are viewed and they may even be given more freedom within the schedule.

In soccer there have been people Jean-marc Bosman which changed the whole way footballers could move around to clubs. A system could be put in place which makes business sense to everyone.

Like we both stated the business sense for these deals is almost non exsistant, but try to look at it long term and I think maybe some sort of system could be worked on where the wrestler's commercial value/contract and of course thier willingness to move companies is taken into account and a value taken from there.

 

[jholcomb22]

While it could work in theory, it probably wouldn't work in real life.

When trades happen in sports, both teams agree to the trades, the league approves that the trades are fair, and then they are permanent.

In regards to the soccer "loaning" thing, because wrestling is fixed, it makes no sense for a company like WWE to take someone from TNA, turn them into a bigger star, and then ship them back to TNA after the loan was over. The thing that would probably happen, is WWE would use that person, sell their merchandise, and then bury them for the last few weeks they had them.

 

[VABurghman]

It would work if WWE were a real sport and all of wrestling fell under a higher banner. i.e. AFC / NFC are two basic different entities that fall under the NFL banner. But wrestling is not set up that way and being that it is more entertainment than sport, it doesn't matter anyways.

 

[Jericaholics_anonymous7]

I actually like the idea, its like with proffesional Footballers (Soccer to the yanks), its a transfer fee... the player is only worth as much as the other business are prepared to offer/pay, but you take into consideration their contract, are they integral to their business, are they a rising talent?

the loan system would work if WWE didnt already have OVW etc... BUT, once again, in theory, a good idea. But once gaining any credibility in ROH - competing at a decent level but in wwe as a low mid carder... then your devaluding ROH/TNA as your saying the wwe talent on loan is better than their main eventers.

Some stars would flourish, some would dwindle....

 

[masonwade313]

Real Talk..rather anybody know it or not WWE has done this in the past in a way...back when Paul E. ran ECW he would always get help from WWE/WWF in terms of talent to help bring up the company.. WWE let ECW use/borrow Jerry the King Lawyer and Al Snow while they both was still under WWE contracts.

 

[akrassikauda]

Real Talk..rather anybody know it or not WWE has done this in the past in a way...back when Paul E. ran ECW he would always get help from WWE/WWF in terms of talent to help bring up the company.. WWE let ECW use/borrow Jerry the King Lawyer and Al Snow while they both was still under WWE contracts.

Yes agree 100% Mick Foley a.k.a. Cactus Jack was on loan to ECW from WCW. RVD was on loan to the WWF he was Mr. Monday Night. Also some low level talent went back and forth as someone posted earlier football ( soccer to us yanks ) does this all the time. David Beckham plays for the L.A. Galaxy and Euro teams in the same calender year

 

[Rayne]

Real Talk..rather anybody know it or not WWE has done this in the past in a way...back when Paul E. ran ECW he would always get help from WWE/WWF in terms of talent to help bring up the company.. WWE let ECW use/borrow Jerry the King Lawyer and Al Snow while they both was still under WWE contracts.

If it's ever in both companies interests, then absolutely. ECW thought that by helping to promote WWE wrestlers, they could give their own brand a boost. The WWE was interested in helping to promote ECW in order to give wrestlers more credibility when they jumped over to the big two. (Which worked excellently.) The stars aligned and the conditions existed where it was in mutual interest to share talent.

Today, it's different. The WWE doesn't need to use ROH as a talent farm as they were using ECW, because they have FCW now. TNA doesn't appear to have anything to gain from promoting ROH that they don't have already. Contracts are structured differently, thanks to Ted Turner's raids on talents signed to handshake agreements; wrestlers are now locked down into contracts with non-compete agreements, and those contracts are more important due to the independent contractor fight that's grown in importance to the industry since the ECW days.

It could still happen, but right now no one has it in their interest to do it.

 

[sinisterscotsman]

In theory it sounds like a good idea, but in practise it would only widen the gap between the WWE and everyone else. Such a system needs competition, where buying power is equal for a number of company's which would increase excitement as who knows what could happen.

 

[PileDriver]

It's not a good idea at all.
Look what this process did to the soccer-world: Transfer-fees and salaries getting absurdly high. Getting almost all soccer-associations in finacial trouble.