Wrestling fans. Love them or hate they, they pay the bills.

[wwesux]

Holy shit, no. Movies, plays, musicals, TV shows, they almost all have clear cut good guys and bad guys. Feeling sympathy for the bad guy doesn't make him not the bad guy. It makes him a sympathetic bad guy.

Wrestling is built around that. Booing John Cena was edgy in 2005, but in 2015, it's pathetic and disgusting. The professional wrestlers dedicate their lives to putting on a performance, NOT fighting, but acting and enduring dangerous spots to appease a crowd. When that crowd chants "This is awesome" or boos the wrong guy for the purposes of being edgy, they're disrespecting the entire craft. The Wrestling world is better without those people than it is with them.

When a wrestler is booked as a heel, and they get cheers, it means that they fucked up. They spend their lives honing that craft, and when you try to be cool and try to fuck up the experience for those groups of 12 year olds cause you're so edgy, you're also casting doubt and shame onto the wrestler. Cena might have risen above it, but you can clearly see the faces of wrestlers that get the wrong reaction from the fans, and you can tell, they loathe those fans that ruin their gimmick.

Fans today just think that they're so special since they can read results on the internet. They think they understand the backstage politics. They think that the know what a push is, or a burial is. Those fans are fucking stupid. If you can't watch a WWE Monday Night Raw without thinking to yourself, I really want to have an edgy opposite reaction for that guy, maybe you should reconsider being a fan.

I love Brock Lesnar. He's one of the greatest WWE stars of all time. But if I'm at a live show, and his music hits, out of respect for him and for the craft and for the entire process, I'm gonna boo the shit out of him. Because that's how it works, and THAT'S what helps the product.

WoW LOL that is the most hippocritical answer I have ever seen without fans you have no audience without audience you have no attendance and no money to pay their salaries so YES FANS are the PEOPLE IMO Bosses as well and we as fans decide, express our concerns and opinions and without internet it would be like 20 decades ago that fans would be surprised & thrilled and fans that disapproved but had no way to voice their opinion and concern now with todays technology we can "INTERNET" we can even vote who we want to see in wwe poll and 1-900 hotline news cease to exist cause we get our scoops here so yes we know backstage politics! Your last paragraph is hippocritical you love Brock Lesner and he's one of the greatest wwe/UFC star of all time why would you boo someone you love ? Boredom? Of cause of flow of fans who jeer him? I like him from 2003 when he beat the crock Johnson and still do when he destroyed John semen

 

[laodaron]

WoW LOL that is the most hippocritical answer I have ever seen without fans you have no audience without audience you have no attendance and no money to pay their salaries so YES FANS are the PEOPLE IMO Bosses as well and we as fans decide, express our concerns and opinions and without internet it would be like 20 decades ago that fans would be surprised & thrilled and fans that disapproved but had no way to voice their opinion and concern now with todays technology we can "INTERNET" we can even vote who we want to see in wwe poll and 1-900 hotline news cease to exist cause we get our scoops here so yes we know backstage politics! Your last paragraph is hippocritical you love Brock Lesner and he's one of the greatest wwe/UFC star of all time why would you boo someone you love ? Boredom? Of cause of flow of fans who jeer him? I like him from 2003 when he beat the crock Johnson and still do when he destroyed John semen

I wanted to quote this for posterity and to actually express what the typical "edgy cheer and boo for who I want to" fan looks like.

This is the problem with the WWE, they can't logically book to people that don't really give a shit about the world of pro-wrestling, but they just want to try and control the show. It's impossible to book a good guy against a bad guy if you're just going to shit on the whole thing.

 

[boywithbluehanger]

It was a lot easier "pre-comment section plagued-internet" when the opinions of fans could be easily ignored or unheard by corporations and writers. But now, whenever there's negative opinion, companies and writers often try to cater to the very loud and negative fanbase.

Pro wrestling is unique in that it's the only film genre where the genuine (not laugh-track) audience participation is relied upon to contribute to the show. But now that the people in the audience are cognizant that their reactions can cause changes to characters and storylines down the road, they take advantage of the "power" by sabotaging the product whenever they see fit. Sometimes it's to be a part of a chant, other times it's because they legitimately like a heel or loathe a babyface.

Since the film genre of live Pro Wrestling is so unique, we have to come up with hypothetical scenarios to compare this. This would be the equivalent of if a sitcom (Big Bang Theory, for instance) was filmed as live TV and the people in the audience intentionally laughed only at Leonard's jokes and left silence for everyone else - for the sole purpose of affecting the show's writing.

 

[laodaron]

You quote one guy whose points aren't very strong because you can't overcome the stronger arguments?

His arguments were the exact same as any other argument supporting ruining WWE live shows. They aren't stronger or weaker. He just so happened to be the last poster. I don't have time to respond to every single angsty immature show hijack supporter in this thread.

There's nothing to overcome, anyway. There's a handful of people who lack the social skills to understand acceptable behavior in specific situations that want to believe that ONLY what they want matters.

 

[#1druid]

His arguments were the exact same as any other argument supporting ruining WWE live shows. They aren't stronger or weaker. He just so happened to be the last poster. I don't have time to respond to every single angsty immature show hijack supporter in this thread.

There's nothing to overcome, anyway. There's a handful of people who lack the social skills to understand acceptable behavior in specific situations that want to believe that ONLY what they want matters.

No they weren't and his name is wwesux so the idea that his opinion would be devoid of bias is obviously untrue. Most people here are arguing cheer who you want and boo who you want. People started booing Hogan in 93 and we got the NWO out of it. People cheered Austin as a heel and we got the attitude era, people booed Rocky Mavia and we got The Rock. Don't act like not going along with the program is new, it's not. It also can work out for the best as it had in those scenarios. Where does WWE get the negotiating power to get Levi's stadium for free for WrestleMania? Hardcore fans that travel from all over the world and spend their money stimulating the local economy. The kind of fans who popped huge for ziggler as a heel cashing in, the kind of people who created one of the greatest feel good moments in mania history when Bryan won last year. No one's experience is being ruined, Cena polarity has existed for ten years if children were having a horrible time their parent's wouldn't take them. Just because some people like Reigns and you may fall in that category doesn't mean everyone else who prefers someone else in the spot is a jerk for sharing their opinion vocally.

 

[Headman]

Again, I very much disagree. You say they don't put their money where their mouth is, yet they paid to be in the building didn't they? WWE doesn't cater to anyone but themselves, which is why we're having this conversation. People don't get complacent and start doing the exact opposite of what WWE wants just because they want to hear themselves talk. That's part of it, sure. But they do it because they're not entertained, either consciously or subconsciously.

Bray Wyatt is an excellent example. People chanted Husky Harris at him when he came out, but you know what? They stopped because he entertained them so much they didn't think to do otherwise. That's what WWE's supposed to be doing. It didn't ruin the show. The casual audience had no idea what they were chanting.

WWE's job is to work people's emotions. Predict what they'll want before they know they want it. Before they get a chance to veer off chart and go into business for themselves, you have to give them a reason to do what you want. You simply can't blame a person for doing what you ask them to do. In any aspect in life. It's like asking a question you don't want the answer to and then getting mad because you got the wrong answer.

If people simply wanted to hijack the show and take over, they'd do it from the start. They'd cheer Stephanie and boo Daniel Bryan.

When I said put their money where their mouths were I meant stop giving the WWE their money. Why would the WWE ever change when these malcontents can't wait to fork over their cash for something they hate. With fans like these how could the WWE creative not get lazy?

And the fans didn't chant Husky Harris because they weren't entertained. The Wyatt family was highly anticipated by internet smarks. The Baltimore crowd thought they were smart because they remembered him from his old gimmick and decided to show their collective asses on television.

As for why they're not cheering Steph and booing Bryan to troll the WWE? Well that's simple. They're not that smart.

 

[Navi]

And the fans didn't chant Husky Harris because they weren't entertained. The Wyatt family was highly anticipated by internet smarks. The Baltimore crowd thought they were smart because they remembered him from his old gimmick and decided to show their collective asses on television.

And that shows that maybe most of the crowd isn't made up if IWC fans as has been previously suggested. Listen I hate chants at WWE shows, they are ridiculous and stupid, and half the time they don't make sense. Half the crowd doing it just join in because it's something to do. Like lemmings off a cliff.

The only ones who seem to get it right is the NXT crowd at Full Sail. They are great and wouldn't be caught dead in a regular RAW group of fans. I still say though you pay you money, you take your chances at these shows.

 

[multiverseman.com]

When I said put their money where their mouths were I meant stop giving the WWE their money. Why would the WWE ever change when these malcontents can't wait to fork over their cash for something they hate. With fans like these how could the WWE creative not get lazy?

If WWE has no impetus to change anything and things are going swimmingly and according to plan, why are we having this conversation?

And the fans didn't chant Husky Harris because they weren't entertained. The Wyatt family was highly anticipated by internet smarks. The Baltimore crowd thought they were smart because they remembered him from his old gimmick and decided to show their collective asses on television.

And the result was....what exactly? Do you still hear Husky Harris chants? Is he not in a WM match with Undertaker?

As for why they're not cheering Steph and booing Bryan to troll the WWE? Well that's simple. They're not that smart.

You seem to want it both ways. You wanna give these so-called anarchists credit for not only all having the exact same opinion, but being clever and organized enough to plan mass hijackings of WWE shows night in and night out across the country, booing people they're supposed to like Roman Reigns. Yet they're too stupid to have their own opinions and express them as they're being asked to.

 

[PeaceLove&Y2J]

Here's my two cents on the ordeal with wrestling fans:

I don't think fans necessarily ruin the shows. At times, they can when their antics are taken too far, but having opinions on a wrestler regardless of alignment is a modern norm. People don't hate Roman Reigns because he's terrible. They despise the decisions made that led to his win, namely Daniel Bryan being eliminated early. Some of the reaction was overboard, some of it was right.

As someone else said, you can't expect fans to see what happens in the ring as black and white. It's too clear that wrestling is scripted. Fans cheer for good workers; they like Bray Wyatt because he's a good bad guy. They like Damien Sandow because he's a solid worker. Fans boo Cena because the character is stale, not evil or too good. We express opinions about the ones involved in the product.

To the point of the thread, the WWE should embrace the modern fan. No, they shouldn't let the fans run the show, but they should realize how much of an impact they make on their product. Look at Daniel Bryan; he was the industry's most over face last year, and probably will be again soon, once he's over this IC title nonsense that's going on. Fans are up with the times. The WWE showed in the past that they can be as well (Austin, Rock, D-Bry), so why not adhere to it?

 

[Blade]

It's just a combination of factors that has led to this point. The dismantling of kayfabe during the ECW and Attitude Era plays a huge part.

As talented as Paul Heyman is, he did do a lot of damage to pro-wrestling. In the Rise and Fall of ECW, he talked about breaking kayfabe because he respected the audience's intelligence. Umm, what? Surely if you respect the audience's intelligence you should NOT break kayfabe, because they should be smart enough to know it's just goddamn entertainment. And the WWE did their fair share of damage as well, allowing DX to break kayfabe a lot of the time. Did they make a lot of money during this time? Sure they did. But now they're dealing with the consequences of that.

But above and beyond all that, the main problem is professional wrestling's greatest strength and greatest weakness: It's a completely unique form of entertainment, that you can't compare to any other form of entertainment. Because of that, there doesn't seem to be any set of rules for how to view this product. In pro-wrestling, people cheer for bad guys all the time and it just seems to be accepted. If you talked about how much you love Scar from Lion King, people see you as a goddamn monster! What is it about pro-wrestling that allows the audience to get away with this stuff?

The fans... Well see, wrestling fans are seriously fucked up people. They're in this strange state of Stockholm Syndrome, where they repeatedly acknowledge that they dislike what they're watching. Yet they'll still watch every week and pay money for tickets. Then they'll go to shows and boo WWE's chosen guys because they want to feel cool and voice their discontent. Isn't that utterly ridiculous? Again, it's the way the audience was conditioned by the Attitude Era, giving them this weird sense of entitlement that they can do what they want and disrespect the performers.

To the "We pay the money, we can boo and cheer who we want!" crowd: No. Fuck you, assholes. Booing John Cena does not send a message to Vince McMahon. It just disrespects a man who works his ass off to entertain. You know what would send a message to McMahon? Stop watching. Stop buying tickets. Stop buying t-shirts and video game and all the other merch. Is that so goddamn difficult to understand? The "hardcore" older fans make up 10-25% of the crowd depending on the city. And that number increases at Pay Per Views. But hey, 10-25% of WWE's revenue could be taken away if you fans were strong enough to walk away from WWE. But you can't, can you? WWE will treat you in a way you feel is unfair, and yet you'll still get into bed with them on a Monday night, whispering "I wish I knew how to quit you" softly in their ear.

So while WWE (and ECW) did ignite the problem in the 90's, it's the fans that have made it worse. WWE and ECW told them it was okay to boo and cheer who they wanted, and now it's stuck with the crowd. A crowd who believe the show is theirs, and so they can do what they want. A crowd who are either too weak or to stupid to just stop watching if they don't like what they see.

Humanity is wonderful, ain't it?

 

[d_henderson1810]

I think the problem with a lot of heels is that they don't do enough to make themselves booed.

I watched a DVD recently on Randy "Macho Man" Savage. Here was a guy who was a talented worker, always entertained, was a cool wrestler, and even had a hot woman by his side. Yet he was heavily booed. Why? Because he knew how to play a heel.

Savage mistreated his valet. He cheated. He took unfair advantages. He injured one of the most popular wrestlers at the time (Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat). He did everything to get people to boo him, and they did. He was heinous, your typical archaetypal bad guy.

Today, a lot heels play to the crowd. Because of political correctness, you can't have a heel mistreat a woman, or pull tights or have their manager throw a weapon to them behind the ref's back.

However, Triple H and Stephanie had heat. They are booed, even though they are brilliant at what they do. Why? Because they act like assholes. They target popular guys (Daniel Bryan, Dolph Ziggler, Sting). So fans want to see Tripper and Steph get what they deserve. That is why people popped when the Authority lost their jobs at SS. They got booed because they deserved to get booed. They MADE the audience hate them.

It also helps when the heel goes after a popular face. If someone attacks Cena, a lot of you aren't disgusted. But Randy Orton or Triple H take out Daniel Bryan, you hate them for it, because you care about the face they attacked.

NWO caused the change, when they made heels "cool" and stole away the focus. This is where being a heel was a cool thing.

Also, look at commentators. Where is the ultra-heel commentator (e.g. Jesse Ventura)? Even JBL has toned down his heel commentator role.

So wrestling needs a vile, disgusting heel who fans can't cheer, and a heel commentator to defend their indefensible actions.

 

[d_henderson1810]

Another example of what I mean.

Bret Hart was a heel, yet spat at Vince in Montreal, and people cheered the heel and booed Vince.

Vince then used the fans' turning on him to become Mr McMahon, who used his wealth and power to crush his enemies, including the popular "Stone Cold" Steve Austin.

You were meant to cheer Austin and boo Vince. You didn't have the fans decide "Well, Mr McMahon is a heel, but I will cheer him anyway". The fans instead WANTED Austin to give Vince a Stunner.

Why? Because Austin was a popular face, and people didn't like to see a guy, especially one who typified the type of rich asshole they hate, pulling all the strings to deprive the fan favourite from his rightful place as champion.

So, bag the McMahons as you do, but admit that they have the heel persona down pat. They are SO good, in fact, that people think that they are as evil in real life as on screen.

It is a vicious circle actually. Vince was SO detested as a heel, that people now hate him for real and bag any decision he does. They think that Mr McMahon runs WWE, not Vince McMahon, and think that keeping Bryan from a WM main event is part of a storyline.

 

[Headman]

If WWE has no impetus to change anything and things are going swimmingly and according to plan, why are we having this conversation?



And the result was....what exactly? Do you still hear Husky Harris chants? Is he not in a WM match with Undertaker?



You seem to want it both ways. You wanna give these so-called anarchists credit for not only all having the exact same opinion, but being clever and organized enough to plan mass hijackings of WWE shows night in and night out across the country, booing people they're supposed to like Roman Reigns. Yet they're too stupid to have their own opinions and express them as they're being asked to.

I seriously mean no offense by this, but it was hard to read this while rolling my eyes. I think you want so hard to argue whatever point it is you're trying to argue that you're inferring too much. Here's what I said...

People who pay for something they hate are never going to change anything no matter how vocal they are because it all comes down to money. Please read carefully so that you don't misunderstand again. The only power a fan has is to walk away. If they want change they will change the channel until the WWE is forced to cater to them. As of now, they're easy money.

Second, I never said Wyatt was damaged. I said the Baltimore crowd looked like a bunch of morons. They got a lot of ridicule on this very forum. The Husky Harris chant is an example of fans collectively wanting to get themselves over. If you think that requires intelligence I would simply have to disagree.

Why are we having this conversation you ask? Because some random person on the internet offered their opinion. This isn't Meet the press. We're talking wrestling on a wrestling forum. You're not having this conversation with Vince Mcmahon. You haven't been invited to the bargaining table. You're just making false assumptions and misinterpreting the words and opinions of a random dude who shared his opinion on one of many topics I will discuss today. I'm sure the WWE will take notice that you are clearly winning the internet and will soon cave in to all of your demands.

Last. I think I was pretty clear in isolating the malcontents from the genuinely dissatisfied yet otherwise reasonable customers. There are people on this forum complaining about Wrestlemania 31 as if it were a terrible show. Any fair minded person knows it wasn't a terrible show. Fair minded people on both sides of the fence shouldn't take these people seriously. There's no coordination involved in stealing a show or hijacking an internet forum. Somebody just starts a chant or spams a mindless opinion and people go with it. I'm pretty sure I even said I was fine with people booing and cheering who they want. So I'm not sure where you get the "Want it both ways" bit.

 

[d_henderson1810]

The funny thing with the malcontents is that they think that they are in control of what they like and what they don't like, and that WWE can't manipulate them into thinking their way. There are fans here who want to say it is raining when WWE says that it is sunny.

But the fact is, you are led by the nose. If you totally didn't buy into anything that WWE did, and thought that they didn't do anything right, then the fans wouldn't have bought into Hulkamania, Wrestlemania or the Attitude Era.

Do you think that anything that the WWE does right in your eyes happened purely by accident? No, they manipulated you to like them. They got you to think their way. You don't have so much power now, do you?

You are no different to any wrestling fan. You wouldn't watch it if you didn't like it. Otherwise you are a fool, and WWE is manipulating you most of all, since you are paying them money for something you don't even like, just so you can comment on a message board and show us all how much smarter you are (how insecure).

How about giving WWE credit when it is due? If you don't like a lot of things they are doing, then maybe your expectations are too high. Expect less, and either WWE will meet those expectations or surpass them.

 

[Headman]

The funny thing with the malcontents is that they think that they are in control of what they like and what they don't like, and that WWE can't manipulate them into thinking their way. There are fans here who want to say it is raining when WWE says that it is sunny.

But the fact is, you are led by the nose. If you totally didn't buy into anything that WWE did, and thought that they didn't do anything right, then the fans wouldn't have bought into Hulkamania, Wrestlemania or the Attitude Era.

Do you think that anything that the WWE does right in your eyes happened purely by accident? No, they manipulated you to like them. They got you to think their way. You don't have so much power now, do you?

You are no different to any wrestling fan. You wouldn't watch it if you didn't like it. Otherwise you are a fool, and WWE is manipulating you most of all, since you are paying them money for something you don't even like, just so you can comment on a message board and show us all how much smarter you are (how insecure).

How about giving WWE credit when it is due? If you don't like a lot of things they are doing, then maybe your expectations are too high. Expect less, and either WWE will meet those expectations or surpass them.

I agree. If somebody continues watching even though they don't enjoy the product they are indeed a fool. I'm not saying someone can't enjoy somethings while disliking others. All of us feel that way. But for the fans who will not allow themselves to be entertained? Those people are wasting their time.

 

[Navi]

I agree. If somebody continues watching even though they don't enjoy the product they are indeed a fool. I'm not saying someone can't enjoy somethings while disliking others. All of us feel that way. But for the fans who will not allow themselves to be entertained? Those people are wasting their time.

I would agree as well, but the difference is that the WWE offers so many characters that it's almost impossible not to find someone to like and support. I'm not a fan of Wyatt and a few others, but others do and I would never try to stop their enjoyment of watching them. Just like I appreciate it when they don't stop my enjoyment. If you watch wrestling and can't find any redeeming qualities in it, then you are wasting your and everyone else's time.

 

[Jack-Hammer]

Whether or not you agree with them giving crap to the main event, though I can't say I blame them as a whole because not only was it a predictable main event, but it was also a main event featuring three of the most generally disliked guys on the roster among a lot of smarks: Roman Reigns, Big Show & Kane.

However, I thought the chants they were doing during the six Diva tag team match was completely disrespectful. A lot of these same fans are the ones who claim to want WWE to do more with the Divas, yet the chants they used weren't just over the line and disrespectful, they were pretty damn hypocritical. For Nikki, they chanted "you suck Cena", for Brie they chanted "you suck Bryan" and for Natalya they chanted "you suck Tyson." I'd almost forgotten about those chants until I spoke with my brother earlier today and their treatment of the women here is a perfect example of why I don't subscribe to the "I paid my money, so I'll do/say whatever I feel like" a good deal of the time. The main event jeering was understandable, but the chants towards the women were completely uncalled for in my opinion.

 

[Navi]

Whether or not you agree with them giving crap to the main event, though I can't say I blame them as a whole because not only was it a predictable main event, but it was also a main event featuring three of the most generally disliked guys on the roster among a lot of smarks: Roman Reigns, Big Show & Kane.

However, I thought the chants they were doing during the six Diva tag team match was completely disrespectful. A lot of these same fans are the ones who claim to want WWE to do more with the Divas, yet the chants they used weren't just over the line and disrespectful, they were pretty damn hypocritical. For Nikki, they chanted "you suck Cena", for Brie they chanted "you suck Bryan" and for Natalya they chanted "you suck Tyson." I'd almost forgotten about those chants until I spoke with my brother earlier today and their treatment of the women here is a perfect example of why I don't subscribe to the "I paid my money, so I'll do/say whatever I feel like" a good deal of the time. The main event jeering was understandable, but the chants towards the women were completely uncalled for in my opinion.

And I totally agree that chants like that are unwarranted and uncalled for. These girls don't deserve that kind of treatment and the fans doing it should be utterly ashamed of themselves.

There is a huge difference though between fans that chant that crap, and fans that chant "this is awesome" or "Luc ha Luc ha". I'm not a fan of chanting myself, and never do it, but as long as they aren't directly hurting anyone with what they're saying or being disrespectful, then I don't see a problem with it. Some will cross the line but not all fans that attend these shows are like that, and it's a shame to lump them all in together.

 

[PeterSellersSTL]

when you allow fans to hijack shows you step foot on a slippery slope, I don't know why anybody is surprised to see assholes being assholes. OTOH the WWE should know better by now with the six person tags.