Wrestlemania 4: A Retrospective Look

[Dagger Dias]

This is the fourth entry in my retrospective thread series on Wrestlemania. With Wrestlemania 30 approaching, I wanted to look back on all of the previous Wrestlemania events one by one. Every couple of days I will submit a new topic on a Wrestlemania event from the first up until last year's in time for the biggest show of the year in April.

In this topic we will look back on Wrestlemania 4!

Wrestlemania 4 took place on March 27, 1988. The event was held at the Trump Plaza in Atlantic City, New Jersey. There were 18,165 fans in attendance to watch this show. Let's take a look at the results of the 4th Wrestlemania:

1. Bad News Brown defeated nineteen other participants by last eliminating Bret Hart in a 20-man battle royal (10:40)

2. Ted DiBiase (with Virgil and André the Giant) defeated Jim Duggan in a first round tournament match (04:54)

3. Don Muraco (with Billy Graham) defeated Dino Bravo (with Frenchy Martin) by disqualification in a first round tournament match (04:53)

4. Greg Valentine (with Jimmy Hart) defeated Ricky Steamboat (with Little Dragon) in a first round tournament match (09:12)

5. Randy Savage (with Miss Elizabeth) defeated Butch Reed (with Slick) in a first round tournament match (05:07)

6. One Man Gang (with Slick) defeated Bam Bam Bigelow (with Oliver Humperdink) by countout in a first round tournament match (02:56)

7. Rick Rude (with Bobby Heenan) and Jake Roberts fought to a time-limit draw in a first round tournament match (15:00)

8. Tuckzilla defeated Hercules (with Bobby Heenan) in a singles match (04:29)

9. Hulk Hogan and André the Giant (with Ted DiBiase and Virgil) fought to a double disqualification in a quarter-final tournament match (05:22)

10. Ted DiBiase defeated Don Muraco (with Billy Graham) in a quarter-final tournament match (05:44)

11. Randy Savage (with Miss Elizabeth) defeated Greg Valentine (with Jimmy Hart) in a quarter-final tournament match (06:06)

12. Brutus Beefcake defeated The Honky Tonk Man (c) (with Jimmy Hart and Peggy Sue) by disqualification in a singles match for the WWF Intercontinental Championship (06:30)

13. The Islanders (Haku and Tama) and Bobby Heenan defeated The British Bulldogs (Davey Boy Smith and The Dynamite Kid) and Koko B. Ware in a six-man tag team match (07:30)

14. Randy Savage (with Miss Elizabeth) defeated One Man Gang (with Slick) by disqualification in a semi-final tournament match (04:05)

15. Demolition (Ax and Smash) (with Mr. Fuji) defeated Strike Force (Rick Martel and Tito Santana) (c) in a tag team match to win the WWF Tag Team Championship (12:33)

16. Randy Savage (with Miss Elizabeth and Hulk Hogan) defeated Ted DiBiase (with André the Giant) in a tournament final to win the vacant WWF Championship (09:27)




Now, here are some discussion questions concerning the show:


What was your favorite match on this show, and why did you like it the most? What about the worst match of this show, why did you like it the least?

If you could change a few things about Wrestlemania 4, what would it be and why?

You may only use wrestlers who were available at the roster at that time or make changes that could have realistically taken place in March 1988. Please keep in mind the situations going into the show such as who could actually have been pushed into a title match, or what songs existed back then if you wanted to change the show's theme music, and so forth.

You may only discuss Wrestlemania 4 in this thread. The other Wrestlemania events will be getting their own retrospective threads shortly, any posts regarding other events will be considered spam and you risk getting an infraction.

Discuss!

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

8. Tuckzilla defeated Hercules (with Bobby Heenan) in a singles match (04:29)

LOL....what up with that?

WrestleMania 4 was the bane of my existence. That show had one of the most awesome hooks and buildups ever, rivaling WrestleMania 3's buildup, IMO, and then fell flat on its face when it came to the actual show.

Ultimately, the problem were the lackluster matches. Coming off of WrestleMania 3's Steamboat/Savage match, there was just nothing to point to and say "That was fantastic!"

This has been discussed quite often in the past, and I like the idea of having Bret Hart in the tournament, possibly facing DiBiase and cementing a face turn for him. I think Steamboat and Savage II should've been a slamdunk natural -- a true gimmie that became a big missed opportunity. It would've injected at least a little suspense into the tournament. I think that's my biggest issue with the card: Once you got past Hogan and Andre's match, the rest was academic. At that point, it had to come down to DiBiase and Savage, and we just had to wait another 3 hours (out of a 4 hour show) to get there.

I think they could've let DiBiase/Savage run longer, as I've seen subsequent matches between the two that were better wrestled, even if they lacked the drama that the title tournament final provided them.

I think there were too many countout/DQ/double CO/double DQ finishes. I know they were time savers but still...a semi final match between Savage and Gang over a potential semi final between Savage and Rude? There were just so many more appealing matchups to be had. Throw in some more surprise finishes instead of the countouts and DQs to shorten matches, and it would've been quite a bit better.

As for my favorite match on the actual card: It's been awhile since I've watched it but I seem to recall the Demolition/Strike Force match being pretty good. The DiBiase/Savage match was probably my favorite of what was offered, however. It was a great moment for Savage and a perfect example of the "right" ending to an angle.

 

[rge2010]

Ahhhh the days of 16 matches. How on earth did they find time to plug the WWE App?

I hear this event is a winner with thew IWC. Super Hogan was left out of the Main Event in favour of Randy Savage. A 'real wrestler'.

 

[LODemolition]

I definitely wouldn't have held the entire tournament in that one night. They should've had just the semi-finals and finals that night. That would've opened up everyone else for better matches that didn't have to be rushed. Even Hogan and Andre only lasted a little over 5 minutes. The rushed matches are the reason why this is a very forgettable 'Mania other than the moment of Savage becoming new champion.

 

[Pedigree1]

The tournament aspect of the WM4 was unique. Due to circumstances on SNME on i believe FEB 4th of that year,the title was vacated due to Andre giving it away.. Overall i was happy with the WM4,it made for a long watch though would be my only complaint. 4 hours is a bit much for a PPV. My complaint is i would have Brutus Beefcake defeat Honky for the IC title that night.

I was surprised that didn't happen. Brutus was a hard worker and i know Hogan's buddy but Beefcake did deserve a title run. Up till that night Honky was what a 10 month champion not a bad run.

As far as the Rick Rude Jake roberts match,i have never been a fan of a time limit draw unless its a special match. I would have had Roberts go over in that match. But it was a nice change of pace not to see Hogan in the Finals and actually have a real wrestler win the Tournament the Great Randy Macho Man Savage

 

[HeenanGorilla]

Check the WrestleMania IV Wiki site...it lists Tuckzilla. I wonder if OP even knew Warrior was the opponent, or if he just cut and pasted....

A popular opinion about WrestleMania IV is that it wasted a perfect chance to see a sequel to Steamboat/Savage. I wholeheartedly disagree with that. As has been said and said again, the matches were given very little time due to the setup of the card. A watered down Steamboat/Savage match would have been awful in such a circumstance. Part of the reason this match is still so highly regarded is because it didn't happen again. Because of weekly RAWs, too many hours of live wrestling each week, etc., we now see Wrestler A vs. Wrestler B dozens of times with no regard to storyline, history, or anything else other than being thrown together. If Ricky and Randy fought each other time and time again after WMIII, the legacy of that first match would not be what it is today. Terrible idea there.

My favorite match was Duggan/DiBiase because it set up the fact that Andre and DiBiase would be a team throughout the tournament, even though they were each in the bracket.

I thought having the popular face tag champs lose their belts (back when it mattered) by being cheated right before the tourney final/main event was an interesting choice. Why have the fans, who should we all amped for the final sit there with a bad taste in their mouths? I might have put Warrior over Herc there instead.

I think the idea of having only the semi-finals on the show is terrible as well. King of the Ring made this mistake. You would get first round KOTR matches on RAW and, quite frankly, who cared? The loser wasn't even in KOTR as far as I was concerned...it started at the PPV. This would just be a 4-man tournament as far as I'm concerned.

Having it in Trump Plaza was a horrible mistake. This mega event deserved a bigger venue and would have sold out a bigger arena. Made the thing feel smaller than it should have been.

I loved the battle royal to start things off, and the interesting finish. Got the crowd going. Gorilla was a little off early on, calling Blair "Brunzell" and insisting Steele was in the ring for introductions, when he never was. But, he came around of course.

As a kid and fan back then, instead of one title match, we had 14 men who could be champ by night's end fighting in a tournament, PLUS an IC title match, a tag team title match, a 6-man match and a battle royal. And also Warrior/Herc. That card on paper was awesome!!! It didn't live up to many people's expectations...but most of the people who complain about it weren't even born when it happened. The 20/20 hindsight IWC is quick to piss on anything that allllll the other puppets don't like.

Fortunately, as a kid who loved wrestling back then--and a person with a creative thought in his brain--I was able to enjoy it then and still enjoy it now. Matchups, bracket changes, time of matches, winners, losers, double eliminations....everyone will have their own opinion. (well, not everyone. A lot of true fans will have their own opinion. A lot of puppets will just read the popular opinion and jump on board)

Loved WrestleMania IV...got a ton of superstars on the card and did what it needed to do. Trump Plaza was a mistake, which unforgivably was made again the very next year. Glad they returned to a grand stage in Toronto afterwards!

 

[Wripple11]

The first thing that struck me after reading the card line-up was how many managers were in wrestling at that time, wow things have changed.

 

[roipdh123]

I would have canceled the title tournament.
What I would have done is a main event match between - Dibiase and Savage for the vacant title.
Then you could have had the following matches:
Andre vs Hogan
Don Muraco vs Ricky Steamboat
Greg Valentine or Rick Rude vs Jake Roberts
And have the IC title & tag title & battle royal stay the same - only have Hart winning the battle royal.

 

[The Fabulous Rougeau's]

This is one of two early Mania's (VI being the other) that I hold in high regard. As for this Mania, I have always maintained that the title tourney was a great idea. If I could rebook the tourney I would change it to 8 participants to cut down on the matches and give the actual tourney matches more time. I would keep the Hogan/Andre match as a double DQ, and still have Macho beat DiBiasi for the title. I would have made sure to have Macho beat Steamboat in the tourney as it would have been a great win for Macho on his way to the title.

My favorite match was the final match of the tourney between DiBiasi and Macho. While I wouldn't change the match I would change the ending and only have Hogan shake Macho's hand and walk away instead of celebrating with him in the ring the whole time.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

The problem with 4 came down to one thing... putting Hogan and Andre into the tournament rather than a steel cage or career match.

Their byes distorted the brackets and forced double DQ's etc to make it work. a 14 man tourney makes no sense... it has to be 4-8-16 for it to work.

That is what dragged the show down for me - they had some exciting new talent to showcase, but it still came down to Hogan and Andre...

It's hard to fault Savage and DiBiase who did their best with it (even though the wrong guy won) but at the end of the day it made very little sense how it all worked out and the whole scenario was based on politicking, be it Hogan making sure he was in the tourney and involved in the win for Savage or Honky refusing to drop the IC belt... Surely they could have stripped him or had Andre or Dynamite "talk to him" about it?

What would I change... the whole damn card!!! - Strap yourselves in you're about to get my Mania 4 with both barrels!

First off I make a fundamental shift to 16 competitors... While I disliked them being in the tourney, for reasons I will explain I am keeping them in. The show begins with the Battle Royal as originally done but with a place in the tournament up for grabs which is won by Bret Hart last eliminating Bad News... News is furious and Bret jubliant....

Round 1

Andre The Giant vs "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan - Andre wins by DQ when Duggan is caught with the 2 by 4 that Heenan throws in the ring and Andre feigns being hit with it. Duggan chases Heenan with the 2 by 4 after the match.

Hulk Hogan vs Harley Race - Strong match and Hogan bests the aging Race.

Bret Hart vs Jake Roberts - Jake never makes it to the ring as Bad News Brown simply knocks him out and takes his place... We see a version of their classic match from Stampede with Bret stealing the win with a roll up after the match Jake attacks Bad News and chases him from the arena with Damien.

Ted DiBiase v "Mystery Opponent" - DiBiase manipulates this so that Virgil is is opponent who simply stands outside the ring allowing the countout win for DiBiase, in effect a bye.

Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat - Rude wins this if it was real as Steamboat was being punished for his "paternity leave and on the outs". I'm going to go with the latter winning for reasons I'll explain later... It's a great match however when Steamboat wins he and Heenan work over Steamboat enough so he is carrying a "back injury" going forward into the tourney.

Randy Savage v Butch Reed - A solid opener with Savage picking up the win but Reed looking dangerous.

Honky Tonk Man vs Brutus Beefcake - Honky tries to use his IC champions #1 contender privilage to get into the tournament. Jack Tunney allows it but tells him that his IC title is on the line until the final. If he loses a match before then he loses his title. Honky manages to best Beefcake by interference from Jimmy Hart and the megaphone.


Bam Bam Bigelow vs One Man Gang - Bam Bam emerges the winner when Slick's interference backfires.

Round 2

Hogan vs Andre - This is the "rubber match" and the announcers tout it as such... it is a titanic effort on both men's part and as good as their prior encounters. The finish comes when Hacksaw blasts Andre with the 2 by 4 in full view of the ref causing the disqualification. Duggan is shocked and Hogan pleads with the ref to reverse the decision as Andre laughs... Duggan shocks the world by blasting Hogan from behind with the "rigged" 2 by 4, breaking it as he does so and knocking Hogan cold. Ted DiBiase laughs at the top of the ramp as Heenan, Andre and Duggan all walk back. DiBiase hands Duggan a briefcase as Hogan is stretchered from the ring... As DiBiase makes his way to the ring for his match, he is seen telling Hogan "Everybody Has A Price" and laughing.

Bret Hart vs Ted DiBiase - This is a classic near fall filled match of the type the two later had at Survivor Series 90. DiBiase wins of course but the story is it is Bret's 3rd match of the evening while DiBiase is fresh having that "win" over Virgil... Bret is defeated by the old 3 arm drop to the Million Dollar Dream, he never submits as such much as Austin didn't at WM13... his push as a singles competitor has begun while DiBiase advances to face Andre as part of his masterplan.

Steamboat vs Savage - the rematch from the prior year - a different match as Steamboat is selling the beating Rude gave him earlier in the night. After a valiant effort, Savage wins with the elbow drop. The two men shake hands and finally bury their differences after the bell.

Honky Tonk Man vs Bam Bam Bigelow - Honky is very afraid of Bam Bam and attempts to leave, only for Brutus to return and prevent the countout. Bam Bam pins Honky with the first ever moonsault in the WWF to win the IC title and advance in the tournament.

Round 3

Andre The Giant vs Ted DiBiase - Before the match begins as both competitors are in the ring, Jack Tunney makes his way to the ringside area and decrees that both men will wrestle this match cleanly or be eliminated from the tournament. This ruins the plan that Andre was, as Virgil did to just "step aside" in favour of DiBiase. DiBiase is able to beat Andre when he uses his own momentum against him into an exposed buckle and places Andre into a floor based Million Dollar Dream. As DiBiase celebrates he attempts to stuff notes into Andre's mouth - this raises the ire of the Giant whose throat instantly wraps around DiBiase's throat... Andre gets to his feet and threatens his DiBiase as Heenan tries to get in between them (this is basically their split of 2 years later, same thing "I'm the f***ing boss and the slap) Andre attacks Heenan as DiBiase and Virgil scamper away to the final.

Randy Savage vs Bam Bam Bigelow - A great semi final between the new IC champion and the man who lost that title a year before. The match ends in a countout when Honky Tonk returns and nails Bigelow with his guitar... Savage nobly tries to help Bigelow back into the ring but has to roll back in and take the win. This establishes Savage as a noble face against DiBiase's nasty character and sets up the feud with Honky and Bigelow to go on further.

The Final

Savage v DiBiase - After a night filled with controversy, Jack Tunney bars everyone from ringside on pain of a $100,000 fine and indefinite suspension and guarantees a clean win. The match must end in pinfall or submission. Virgil is furious while Savage is not happy to let Elizabeth leave... eventually security escort her from the ringside area.

The match is see saw and much as the original a great showing for both men... The finish occurs when Savage misses the big elbow and DiBiase uses the ropes for a leverage pin. Eizabeth races to the ring to plead the case that DiBiase's feet were on the ropes but the referee refuses to listen and Ted DiBiase is crowned the World Champion joined by Jim Duggan, Rick Rude, Virgil and Heenan. After DiBiase has the title and is about to stuff the notes in Savage's mouth... Hulk Hogan's music hits and he and Andre come to the ring forcing the heels to flee... However the final image is Ted DiBiase laughing with the title around his waist...

So - I have DiBiase winning sure, I have a lot of controversy and the makings of a WWF style "Rat Pack" with Duggan, DiBiase and Rude... this stable would replace the Heenan family in effect. 2 new stars are created in Bam Bam and Bret Hart and a summer of new feuds are created culminating in Summerslam's main event - Hogan, Andre and Savage vs DiBiase, Duggan and Rick Rude.

 

[HeenanGorilla]

The problem with 4 came down to one thing... putting Hogan and Andre into the tournament rather than a steel cage or career match.

Their byes distorted the brackets and forced double DQ's etc to make it work. a 14 man tourney makes no sense... it has to be 4-8-16 for it to work.

That is what dragged the show down for me - they had some exciting new talent to showcase, but it still came down to Hogan and Andre...

It's hard to fault Savage and DiBiase who did their best with it (even though the wrong guy won) but at the end of the day it made very little sense how it all worked out and the whole scenario was based on politicking, be it Hogan making sure he was in the tourney and involved in the win for Savage or Honky refusing to drop the IC belt... Surely they could have stripped him or had Andre or Dynamite "talk to him" about it?

What would I change... the whole damn card!!! - Strap yourselves in you're about to get my Mania 4 with both barrels!

First off I make a fundamental shift to 16 competitors... While I disliked them being in the tourney, for reasons I will explain I am keeping them in. The show begins with the Battle Royal as originally done but with a place in the tournament up for grabs which is won by Bret Hart last eliminating Bad News... News is furious and Bret jubliant....

Round 1

Andre The Giant vs "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan - Andre wins by DQ when Duggan is caught with the 2 by 4 that Heenan throws in the ring and Andre feigns being hit with it. Duggan chases Heenan with the 2 by 4 after the match.

Hulk Hogan vs Harley Race - Strong match and Hogan bests the aging Race.

Bret Hart vs Jake Roberts - Jake never makes it to the ring as Bad News Brown simply knocks him out and takes his place... We see a version of their classic match from Stampede with Bret stealing the win with a roll up after the match Jake attacks Bad News and chases him from the arena with Damien.

Ted DiBiase v "Mystery Opponent" - DiBiase manipulates this so that Virgil is is opponent who simply stands outside the ring allowing the countout win for DiBiase, in effect a bye.

Rick Rude vs Ricky Steamboat - Rude wins this if it was real as Steamboat was being punished for his "paternity leave and on the outs". I'm going to go with the latter winning for reasons I'll explain later... It's a great match however when Steamboat wins he and Heenan work over Steamboat enough so he is carrying a "back injury" going forward into the tourney.

Randy Savage v Butch Reed - A solid opener with Savage picking up the win but Reed looking dangerous.

Honky Tonk Man vs Brutus Beefcake - Honky tries to use his IC champions #1 contender privilage to get into the tournament. Jack Tunney allows it but tells him that his IC title is on the line until the final. If he loses a match before then he loses his title. Honky manages to best Beefcake by interference from Jimmy Hart and the megaphone.


Bam Bam Bigelow vs One Man Gang - Bam Bam emerges the winner when Slick's interference backfires.

Round 2

Hogan vs Andre - This is the "rubber match" and the announcers tout it as such... it is a titanic effort on both men's part and as good as their prior encounters. The finish comes when Hacksaw blasts Andre with the 2 by 4 in full view of the ref causing the disqualification. Duggan is shocked and Hogan pleads with the ref to reverse the decision as Andre laughs... Duggan shocks the world by blasting Hogan from behind with the "rigged" 2 by 4, breaking it as he does so and knocking Hogan cold. Ted DiBiase laughs at the top of the ramp as Heenan, Andre and Duggan all walk back. DiBiase hands Duggan a briefcase as Hogan is stretchered from the ring... As DiBiase makes his way to the ring for his match, he is seen telling Hogan "Everybody Has A Price" and laughing.

Bret Hart vs Ted DiBiase - This is a classic near fall filled match of the type the two later had at Survivor Series 90. DiBiase wins of course but the story is it is Bret's 3rd match of the evening while DiBiase is fresh having that "win" over Virgil... Bret is defeated by the old 3 arm drop to the Million Dollar Dream, he never submits as such much as Austin didn't at WM13... his push as a singles competitor has begun while DiBiase advances to face Andre as part of his masterplan.

Steamboat vs Savage - the rematch from the prior year - a different match as Steamboat is selling the beating Rude gave him earlier in the night. After a valiant effort, Savage wins with the elbow drop. The two men shake hands and finally bury their differences after the bell.

Honky Tonk Man vs Bam Bam Bigelow - Honky is very afraid of Bam Bam and attempts to leave, only for Brutus to return and prevent the countout. Bam Bam pins Honky with the first ever moonsault in the WWF to win the IC title and advance in the tournament.

Round 3

Andre The Giant vs Ted DiBiase - Before the match begins as both competitors are in the ring, Jack Tunney makes his way to the ringside area and decrees that both men will wrestle this match cleanly or be eliminated from the tournament. This ruins the plan that Andre was, as Virgil did to just "step aside" in favour of DiBiase. DiBiase is able to beat Andre when he uses his own momentum against him into an exposed buckle and places Andre into a floor based Million Dollar Dream. As DiBiase celebrates he attempts to stuff notes into Andre's mouth - this raises the ire of the Giant whose throat instantly wraps around DiBiase's throat... Andre gets to his feet and threatens his DiBiase as Heenan tries to get in between them (this is basically their split of 2 years later, same thing "I'm the f***ing boss and the slap) Andre attacks Heenan as DiBiase and Virgil scamper away to the final.

Randy Savage vs Bam Bam Bigelow - A great semi final between the new IC champion and the man who lost that title a year before. The match ends in a countout when Honky Tonk returns and nails Bigelow with his guitar... Savage nobly tries to help Bigelow back into the ring but has to roll back in and take the win. This establishes Savage as a noble face against DiBiase's nasty character and sets up the feud with Honky and Bigelow to go on further.

The Final

Savage v DiBiase - After a night filled with controversy, Jack Tunney bars everyone from ringside on pain of a $100,000 fine and indefinite suspension and guarantees a clean win. The match must end in pinfall or submission. Virgil is furious while Savage is not happy to let Elizabeth leave... eventually security escort her from the ringside area.

The match is see saw and much as the original a great showing for both men... The finish occurs when Savage misses the big elbow and DiBiase uses the ropes for a leverage pin. Eizabeth races to the ring to plead the case that DiBiase's feet were on the ropes but the referee refuses to listen and Ted DiBiase is crowned the World Champion joined by Jim Duggan, Rick Rude, Virgil and Heenan. After DiBiase has the title and is about to stuff the notes in Savage's mouth... Hulk Hogan's music hits and he and Andre come to the ring forcing the heels to flee... However the final image is Ted DiBiase laughing with the title around his waist...

So - I have DiBiase winning sure, I have a lot of controversy and the makings of a WWF style "Rat Pack" with Duggan, DiBiase and Rude... this stable would replace the Heenan family in effect. 2 new stars are created in Bam Bam and Bret Hart and a summer of new feuds are created culminating in Summerslam's main event - Hogan, Andre and Savage vs DiBiase, Duggan and Rick Rude.

Wow! A very creative post! I like the Honky Tonk point of his title being on the line throughout the tourney and the battle royal winner earning a spot. A lot of really creative and fun thoughts.

But, your theory on Andre/Hogan was so wrong that it kind of took away from the rest of your post, including the highly entertaining and creative Duggan heel turn. You start by saying that 14-men tournaments don't make sense...and that 16 would have been better. You also say that Hogan and Andre's byes ruined the bracket. You then have Andre and Hogan win anyway--putting them right where they were in the actual bracket: facing each other in round two. That makes absolutely no sense and I'm surprised that this escapes you, as the rest is really well thought out.

Giving Hogan and Andre byes, where they meet each other in Round 2 is THE SAME THING as a 16-person tourney where both advance, except they don't have a Round 1 match. The outcome is still the same and the "need" for double DQs and draws IN NO WAY becomes any different. The double DQs and draws had to do with time, not because the 14-man bracket made it uneven.

Otherwise, again, great idea. You are just WAY off base with the 14 vs. 16 and Hogan/Andre issue.

 

[AnthonyM4]

A lot of people say WM 4 and 5 were boring, but they're two of my favorite wrestlemanias. Probably because the late 80s was such a great wwf period imo. Favorite match was the Battle Royal because it had a lot of good workers in it. Can't say the same for the tournament. Speaking of which Duggan vs Bravo and Gang vs Bigalow are my two least favorite matches. Man was Bravo a bad worker and the ending to the other match was lame. I would have put better workers like Bret Hart in the tournament and Savage vs Steamboat should have happened in the 2nd round with Savage winning of course.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

Wow! A very creative post! I like the Honky Tonk point of his title being on the line throughout the tourney and the battle royal winner earning a spot. A lot of really creative and fun thoughts.

But, your theory on Andre/Hogan was so wrong that it kind of took away from the rest of your post, including the highly entertaining and creative Duggan heel turn. You start by saying that 14-men tournaments don't make sense...and that 16 would have been better. You also say that Hogan and Andre's byes ruined the bracket. You then have Andre and Hogan win anyway--putting them right where they were in the actual bracket: facing each other in round two. That makes absolutely no sense and I'm surprised that this escapes you, as the rest is really well thought out.

Giving Hogan and Andre byes, where they meet each other in Round 2 is THE SAME THING as a 16-person tourney where both advance, except they don't have a Round 1 match. The outcome is still the same and the "need" for double DQs and draws IN NO WAY becomes any different. The double DQs and draws had to do with time, not because the 14-man bracket made it uneven.

Otherwise, again, great idea. You are just WAY off base with the 14 vs. 16 and Hogan/Andre issue.

Maybe... There is an argument as I said to remove Hogan and Andre completely but. the way I booked it above gives Hogan and Andre's match a bearing in creating some new storylines going forward rather than simply just being a filler rematch without a real finish (which in effect it was in real life.)

By having the Duggan turn and Andre and Hogan wrestle first round matches it makes things more rounded as a tournament as a card (Harley v Hogan for example...dream match in the first round far better than no match..

The concept of the "bye" was still used, but for DiBiase who could pay an opponent to "step aside" and make it more interesting as something the heel was manipulating rather than the "they used to be champs so they get a bye which made little sense" and forced a pointless double countout of Rude and Jake/OMG bye later in the tourney.

You could easily replace Warrior with Hogan and Hercules with Andre... 16 is right because it's a full bracket... 14 means either a triple threat somewhere, which they didn't do or you are guaranteeing byes later in the tourney which to me ruins it...

 

[HeenanGorilla]

Maybe... There is an argument as I said to remove Hogan and Andre completely but. the way I booked it above gives Hogan and Andre's match a bearing in creating some new storylines going forward rather than simply just being a filler rematch without a real finish (which in effect it was in real life.)

By having the Duggan turn and Andre and Hogan wrestle first round matches it makes things more rounded as a tournament as a card (Harley v Hogan for example...dream match in the first round far better than no match..

The concept of the "bye" was still used, but for DiBiase who could pay an opponent to "step aside" and make it more interesting as something the heel was manipulating rather than the "they used to be champs so they get a bye which made little sense" and forced a pointless double countout of Rude and Jake/OMG bye later in the tourney.

You could easily replace Warrior with Hogan and Hercules with Andre... 16 is right because it's a full bracket... 14 means either a triple threat somewhere, which they didn't do or you are guaranteeing byes later in the tourney which to me ruins it...

Well your ideas are definitely cool to think about! I just think the bracket is causing you some confusion. Picture the bracket we had at WMIV. You realize that by making it 16, the second round still looks the way it did right?

Let's say Hogan vs Herc and Andre vs. Warrior in round 1, ok? and the rest of the bracket is the same...with me so far? (not being sarcastic, you are just missing this major point and I want to explain it) Now, let's say Hogan wins and Andre wins. You STILL get Hogan vs. Andre, DiBiase vs. Muraco, Savage vs. Valentine and Gang getting a bye---all in Round 2. The OMG bye had nothing to do with lopsidedness. He could have faced Rude, for example, and won and moved on to Round 3. Hogan/Andre--whether it was double DQ or one of them won--either Dibiase gets a bye or the winner would face Dibiase and Savage would face Gang. The byes were for saving time and relieving the audience from another match. Bracket lopsidedness has NOTHING to do with it because IT DIDN'T EXIST. Do you get it now? I really can't believe you don't see this.

Are you a basketball fan? If in the NCAA tourney, the #1 seeds got byes into the second round, the rest of the tournament would go on as usual. There wouldn't be a lopsided bracket. Instead of beating someone to get to the next round, you would get a bye. Same as Hogan and Andre. 16-man tourney or 14-man with two byes....EITHER WAY you get 4 matches in the second round. Yes, there only 3 because OMG got a bye himself....but that was not about fixing the bracket. Again, had he beaten Jake or Rude, Round 3 still has 2 matches (though again, one was a bye) and the final round pits the last two against each other. You HAVE TO see it now, right??

As to your creative side, which is in much better shape than your logical/mathematic side (haha), I might suggest not turning Duggan, but turning Jake instead. Sub Jake for Duggan in your DiBiase/Heenan/Andre angle and then have Jake turn face on Andre and they can go on to square off at WMV, as they did. Just a thought...but good job there!

Now go read the bracket again...you'll understand it now and maybe that will give you some more creative ideas. Good job!

 

[JoeyJoeJoe]

The 14 vs. 16 didn't bother me so much...all it meant was that Hogan and Andre would get a bye, and then their double disqualification would mean DiBiase would also receive a bye. That was the only draw type situation necessary in my opinion. I think there were ways to save time elsewhere on the card.

The Battle Royale, for example, could've been moved off the main card to a WWE Superstars. THTRobTaylor has suggested in the past that the winner of the battle royale would automatically be the 14th participant of the tournament. I like that idea a lot because again it would've added some uncertainty. The "free match" on Superstars would've also been great to whet people's appetites for the card the following day or week. Again, I'd have put Hart in there instead of Brown.

The person who this bumps from the tourney in this case would be Muraco. Hart would face Bravo, and pin him with a rollup around the 4:00 mark, and go on to lose to DiBiase.

For the matter of time, this would've eliminated the 10 minute battle royale from the card. Valentine Vs. Steamboat would've been the 4:00 match that it should've been, with Steamboat going over. I think the rematch with Savage would've been worth it.

Roberts and Rude also wouldn't have gone the distance. Instead, you get a tight match that ends at about the 8:00 mark with Rude using dirty tactics to beat The Snake. This lets Rude be the main villain of the lower half of the bracket instead of Gang. Gang, a truly overrated brawler with all the threatening demeanor of the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man, would've lost to Bigelow in a quick squash in my perfect world, setting up Rude/Bigelow with again Rude escaping after a beating. This would've set up Rude and Savage, which again would've been a nice 7 or 8 minute match with Savage winning to advance to the final. Savage will have been put through the ringer by the time he fought DiBiase, having faced Reed, Steamboat, and Rude.

So same big picture results in the end: Hogan and Andre get DQ'd, Savage goes over DiBiase in the final, but the rest of the card wouldn't have felt so much like filler with Steamboat and Rude making things interesting for Savage, and a more talented opponent in Hart to allow DiBiase to shine a bit more as well.

 

[The Brain]

Just want to point out I type up my response a few days ago. I just haven't been on line to post it since this thread went up. Here are my original thoughts but I'll read through the rest of the thread tomorrow and respond to some posts.

WrestleMania IV was an interesting show with the winner of a 14 man tournament getting the vacant world title. The WWF needed something big to follow Hogan vs. Andre from the year before and no one match was going to cut it. The tournament gave mania the big feel it needed that year. The problem was the same as with most tournaments. They’re a fun idea on paper but they don’t usually deliver on action. Most of the time the wrestlers just go through the motions to get to the finals and that’s what happened here.

Picking a favorite match is difficult for WM4. It wasn’t bad but nothing really stood out at all. I guess I’ll pick Strike Force vs. Demolition as my favorite. Demolition got off to a bit of a slow start in the WWF but by the end of 1987 you could tell they were about to break out. I really liked Strike Force at the time and hated Demolition so I was worried Demolition was going to take the titles. It was a decent match and the beginning of Demolition’s record title reign. My least favorite match was Bam Bam Bigelow vs. One Man Gang. It was very short and had a bogus count out finish. I say bogus because the ref counted Bigelow out while Gang was hitting him on the apron. It just looked awkward and like Bigelow got screwed by the ref, which was not the intent. I think Bigelow may have been working through an injury which is probably why the match was so short but he was one of the few that had a legit chance of winning the tournament so having him go out so quickly and easily was a disappointment.

A while back I wrote a thread creating an entirely different card for WrestleMania IV without the tournament. I think I came up with a good card but I don’t know if that’s the way I would have gone. You can read about that here if you like. http://forums.wrestlezone.com/showthread.php?t=246469

Without making such a drastic change there is one change I would make while keeping the tournament. You longtime readers know where I’m going with this as I’m about to type it for the 100th time. Ricky Steamboat should have defeated Greg Valentine in the first round of the tournament. This would have set up Steamboat vs. Randy Savage in the second round in the most perfect scenario possible. People were still talking about how awesome their match was at WrestleMania III and the tournament gave WWF an opportunity to give us a rematch by ‘luck of the draw.’ Just picture it. Exactly one year later we get an epic rematch of what was considered to be the greatest match in WWF history. This time it’s for a bigger prize and both guys are face. Steamboat got the win in the first match and this time Savage would get the win on his way to the title. Steamboat was leaving the WWF right after mania and this would have been the perfect way to go out. As I mentioned above this mania didn’t have any real strong matches and this would have given us that mania classic. Steamboat shakes Savage’s hand after the match and leaves the WWF on a high note after a loss. It’s so simple it’s brilliant. Did no one see the perfect story they had right in front of them? I know Steamboat wasn’t on Vince’s best side after taking time of shortly after WM3 and was leaving the company right after WM4 but it wouldn’t have hurt him to give Steamboat a win over Valentine. It would have been well worth it to put Savage over even stronger than he was.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

I get the analogy of the Basketball but I simply don't like the double countouts/eliminations. To me WWE should have not had the double eliminations and the 16 KOTR brackets... I am not a fan of double eliminations etc in "fake wrestling", to me if the people involve deserves a spot in the tourney then give the match an outcome. Sure you might want to keep both strong but then use a countout where it's not their fault or a DQ... Rude and Jake would have been better replaced with Warrior and Herc if you were going to do it as WWE did...

Hey horses for courses (and yes I do have a severe head injury/disability so maths can sometimes not work right) but to me I just don't like how they used 14 over 16...just as you wouldn't use 6 instead of 8 for KOTR.

 

[The Brain]

A popular opinion about WrestleMania IV is that it wasted a perfect chance to see a sequel to Steamboat/Savage. I wholeheartedly disagree with that. As has been said and said again, the matches were given very little time due to the setup of the card. A watered down Steamboat/Savage match would have been awful in such a circumstance. Part of the reason this match is still so highly regarded is because it didn't happen again. Because of weekly RAWs, too many hours of live wrestling each week, etc., we now see Wrestler A vs. Wrestler B dozens of times with no regard to storyline, history, or anything else other than being thrown together. If Ricky and Randy fought each other time and time again after WMIII, the legacy of that first match would not be what it is today. Terrible idea there.

Have to disagree with you here. The circumstances were just right for a rematch, especially since it wouldn't have been advertised and they just happened to meet in the second round by chance. WM4 needed a match like this. I agree a short and watered down version wouldn't have done any good but they could have gotten about 15 minutes to deliver a great match. There were other ways to save time on the card. WM4 doesn't have a stand out match and this could have been it. Almost every mania has at least that one match you look forward to when you pop in the dvd for some nostalgic viewing. What is that match for WM4? It's not there. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy WM4 as it takes me back to the carefree days as an eight year old in 1988. The show as a whole is fun but nothing really stands out above anything else. Savage vs. Steamboat could have given the show a needed boost. The only problem I see with it is WWF rarely did face vs. face in those days but considering it was a tournament and Steamboat's last night with the company I think it was a perfect opportunity.

Their byes distorted the brackets and forced double DQ's etc to make it work. a 14 man tourney makes no sense... it has to be 4-8-16 for it to work.

As HeeanGorilla pointed out having 14 guys in the tournament did not ruin the brackets considering Hogan and Andre got first round byes. It worked perfectly fine. I'll give you points for creativity in your post but it's not very realistic. That's ok though. I personally prefer to make minor changes that don't effect more than the actual mania card. Your changes effect the entire direction of the company for months or maybe even years to come and seem to be based more on personal preference than what makes sense for the company. Again, nothing wrong with that. Nice to see a lot of thought put into a post and fun to read. Just not realistic.

 

[8thwotwATG]

This wrestlemania was pretty ambitious in what it tried to accomplish. A round robin tournament to determine the "undisputed" WWF champion, complete with just about every major talent in the organization at that time participating. Looking back at this event, I think that it more or less accomplished what it wanted to accomplish. A great deal of time was put into setting up the storylines that would come to their fruition at WMIV. First you had the return of Andre at the first ever Survivor Series, and had his team, and he personally being the sole survivor over Hogan's team,reestablishing his menace as the monster heel, then on to the two SNME's where of course Macho turned face, and Andre, DiBiase, and a twin referee jobbed hogan out of the strap.(I think he was getting ready to film No Holds Barred at the time,hence dropping the strap). Of course this all served to set the stage for this tourney.
At four hours in length, it was bit longer than usual, but I recall thinking
that I was getting my money's worth. As far as my favorite match, I gotta say that DiBiase and Savage put on a pretty good show to close out the event, though there weren't any matches that really stood out. Andre's physical decline is even more evident here than from the previous years main event, and he clearly is in great pain during his match with Hogan, kinda making it not fun to watch. Honestly, it would have been impossible to top WM III's impact, but all in all, WMIV was an entertaining event.

 

[thebarber]

What was your favorite match on this show, and why did you like it the most?

The opening battle royal was my favourite match. As the contestents got introduced, I had never heard of Bad News Brown before, so I picked him to win the thing, and JYD to be last man out. I was close, Bret Hart got a minor push in this battle royal and was the commencement of his stop start singles run.

What about the worst match of this show, why did you like it the least? Honkytonk Man vs Brutus. I thought Beefcake should have won the IC Title, but after the WWE Title and tag belts changed hands, I guess somebody had to retian. Plus, the rumours of Honky refusing to drop the belt to Savage, then Beefcake was no chance of winning.

If you could change a few things about Wrestlemania 4, what would it be and why?

Id have had the title tourney as 16 men. They could have put Ultimate Warrior and Hercules in the brackets and had 16 men, to 8, to 4 to 2. Have Andre beat Hogan instead of the double elimination, then forfeit his match to DiBiase would have worked, setting the odds up higher against Savage.

 

[MMK]

I LOVE the idea of a Tournament for the Title. Great idea on paper, but the execution was flawed.

A 14 man tournament is too much. First of all, 14 is just an odd number to go with. And secondly, half the guys in this match are just filler. An 8 man tournament would have made a lot more sense. Here's how I would have booked the tournament. Have a 16 man tournament with qualifying matches taking place on Saturday Nights Main Event over the course of the weeks leading up to mania, with the final 8 men advancing to the event.

Ted Dibiase vs Bret Hart

Why Bret you ask? Bret turned babyface at this event, but the way he did it was not very effective. He and Bad News Brown formed an alliance to win a battle royal together, only to have Brown betray Bret. But it's a battle royal, it's supposed to be every man for himself. Bad News never did anything wrong really. So by smashing Browns trophy post match, Bret wasn't being heroic he was just throwing a hissy fit.

A better way to turn Bret face would have been for he and Ted to open the show with a wrestling clinic similar to the match they had at Survivor Series 1990. The match starts with a confident Dibiase putting a wad of cash in Jimmy Hart's pocket and trying to buy his way out of wrestling Jimmy's client. Jimmy Hart smiles and excepts the money, then tells Bret to head back to the locker room. But Bret refuses. Much to Jimmy Hart's dismay, Bret throws the money to the crowd and wrestles Dibiase.

After Bret loses the match, Jimmy Hart slaps him across the face then tries to run only to turn around and find himself face to face with The Anvil. The Hart Foundation then perform their patented signature clothesline on Jimmy and leave to thunderous applause.

Jake Roberts vs Rick Rude: DRAW
I would keep this match exactly as it was.

Randy Savage vs Honkytonk Man
Instead of Honky defended the IC title against Brutus Beefcake, I think a Wrestlemania blowoff match between Honky and Savage would have been the better way to go. Just as Savage goes up for the elbow, Honky hightails out of the ring, and deliberately gets himself counted out. Opting to take his IC title and go home rather than risk a further beating from Savage.

Hulk Hogan vs Andre: DOUBLE DQ
Again, this match stays as it was.

Now Savage and Dibiase both get a buy to the finals where they have more time and energy to put on a higher quality match they were both more than capable off.

Wrestlemania 4 should have had less quantity, more quality.

 

[spaldoni]

I never liked the tournament. It was just to watered down. The two biggest changes I would make would be scrap the tournament and change the venue. Trump Plaza was a horrible place for WrestleMania. The non wrestling crowd killed the event. I think I would of booked it in a great wrestling venue like the Spectrum in Philly. You would of gotten a hot crowd with a grittier feel. I would do the same angle with Dibiase buying the title from Andre. Dibiase brings in his top lawyers and the decision stands. I think that would of given him mega heat going into Mania. I mean the guy would of pulled it off! He would of been despised by fans. He defends against Savage. For added heat they could of played an angle where Dibiase wants to buy the services of Elizabeth as his valet. This would of drove Savage nuts and the fans in Philly would of been all over this. Hogan would face Andre in the cage to blow off their feud. Hogan beat Andre at Mania 3, Andre was the sole survivor at Survivor Series then beat Hogan on national TV. Mania 4 in the cage would of been the perfect place to settle their feud. I would of put Bam Bam against Honkytonk Man for the IC title. Bam Bam just destroys Honkytonk. Honkytonk then just runs away taking the count out loss. The Philly crowd would of booed him out of the building, so Honky gets a lot of heat and Bam Bam looks like a beast. These two intense main events combined with a hot crowd and solid undercard would of made an epic WrestleMania 4.

 

[Judah's Lion]

as a rule, I try not to be too hard on the wrestling industry. I try to be a fan first and an analyst second. still, I've been enjoying this thread series and while I don't have much to complain about as it relates to Mania 4, I do see some missed opportunities that I might have changed if I were running things.

gotta keep the tournie for the theme of the show. the build up and the idea were really great and it was a unique way to sell the event and differentiate it from Mania 3. others have stated that on this and many other threads before and I agree wholeheartedly. and I like starting the show with a battle royal and defending all the titles on the card. so now for my changes...

battle royal: winner gets a spot in the tournament. I'd have Bret Hart win. as others have suggested, this would be an ideal place to begin both his face turn and singles career. let him win and take that last spot in the tournament.

Tag Title match I'd leave exactly the same. I like Demolition and this is the start of their legendary run. and the split between Strike Force was a nice little extra addition. in fact, this would have to be match of the night for the actual Mania 4 that we got. the match itself, the Tag Titles changing hands and the start of a new feud all made this worth watching. so keep this as is.

the IC Title match I'd also keep but I'd let Beefcake win. he was enjoyable enough as a character and decent enough as a worker. give him the belt here.

Rude/Roberts is another good match. I can't remember if they were feuding before or after this Mania, but I loved this feud with Jake's wife involved. so that's a good match for this Mania card. only give a clear winner, and I think it has to be Rude here since you've already got some faces winning in the other matches.

instead of giving them bye rounds in the tournament, I'd give Hogan/Andre one more match. a rubber match. and I'd make it a career match with Hogan going over. Andre was already well on his way out with no more good matches in him. and maybe since it's a career-ending rubber match between two icons, throw in a gimmick like a no DQ or steel cage. either way, these two have one final rematch and the tournament goes on without them.

as for the tournament itself, I'm not sure who all was healthy, leaving the company soon or had beef with Vince, etc. I'm not sure who the company was high on or mad at, etc. so I'll just stick with who and what I know and what I'd like as a fan.

instead of 14 men, I'd go with 8. you're gonna get some better matches if you keep it down to 8 guys that might actually have a chance of winning and can wrestle for more than 5 minutes. food for thought there. besides, with a battle royal, IC and Tag Title matches plus Hogan/Andre, you're already getting a pretty stacked card.

the way I see it, Brain and company are absolutely right in that Steamboat/Savage 2 has to happen here. whether that's planned up front in the first round or happens by chance by both men advancing, this must happen. maybe so this doesn't look like Mania 3, part 2, what with having Hogan/Andre already involved in a rematch, we have Steamboat/Savage happen by chance when both advance. so let Steamboat go over Valentine and Savage go over any other top heel, maybe Harley Race, to set up the Steamboat/Savage rematch for the next round.

Dibiase/Hart is a great match that we got to see later at Survivor Series, but I think it would have been fitting here and really cemented Hart as the babyface he was turning into at the beginning of the night after the battle royal.

if I'm not mistaken, and I totally could be, but Warrior was on this Mania card, as was Dino Bravo, and they had a forgettable feud around this time. put them as the final two entrants into the tournament and let Warrior advance.

to summarize, my final Mania 4 card would look as follows, though in no particular order:

Battle Royal: Bret Hart wins to earn the final spot in the World Title Tournament.
Grudge Match: Rude beats Jake the Snake (again, assuming this was during the feud that involved Jake's wife Cheryl).
Tag Titles: Demolition beats Strike Force to win the belts. Strike Force splits up afterwards to begin their singles feud.
IC Title: Beefcake beats Honky Tonk Man to become the new champion.
Hogan vs. Andre in a career-ending match, possibly with a gimmick stipulation such as no DQ or steel cage match. Hogan wins and Andre calls it a career.
Savage beats Harley Race to advance.
Steamboat beats Valentine to advance.
Dibiase beats Hart to advance.
Warrior beats Bravo to advance.
Savage beats Steamboat to advance.
Dibiase beats Warrior to advance.
Savage beats Dibiase to win the vacant World Title.

looking forward to the rest of this series.

 

[Wrestlingaholic]

Judah's Lion: easily done since we are taking an event nearly 20 years ago, but you're confusing this with 5 - Strike Force split up a year later!

Also it occurs to me that DiBiase is the only heel to win a match in your tournament. The key to a successful tournament is to build up several potential winners and therefore several potential challengers, and remember we are discussing an era where face v face was unheard of.

I also disagree with the poster above who first reduces the tournament to 8 men then has two countouts, further reducing (and demeaning) the tournament to just 3 matches. And if the Honky Tonk Man was in the tournament, why would he walk out on his opportunity to be WWE Champion? Doesn't make sense in afraid.

 

[WWFan79]

It confused the hell out of me as a kid. I had not idea who was to fight who after each match since they didn't explain the bracket system well.

Worst Match: The Snake vs Rude draw match really tired me out. It was alot of long holds, alot of effort and no result. I would have changed that to something quicker and more energetic. A double count out or something.

Favorite Match: Hard to say. Maybe Savage vs Dibiase given all the characters involved and end posedown. Real genuine emotion there, including commentating by Jesse and Gorilla. But probably actual match, it was Savage vs Butch Reed. The way Savage hit that elbow quick, after getting beat down was awesome.

I would have made the tournament shorter, or with less participants. That venue and the people at the front with Donald Trump reeked of 80's Yuppie gawdiness.

I wished they had much more or even a separate tape of the behind the scenes event and stuff that happened. Especially the casino they kept touting. How awesome would it have been if there were vignettes of those guys walking through the casino. The first real Wrestlemania weekend.

Elizabeth probably looked the most gorgeous during her whole career, and each time, she did look better. Especially the main event, along with Savage's robes. Thinking about it, if they had made a special tape specifically of Elizabeth, it would have been a huge success.