Why is Ziggler STILL Being Buried?

[OYDK]

Alright, I know people are probably going to be like, "OMG SHUT UP ABOUT ZIGGLER!" "THIS THREAD HAS BEEN DONE ALREADY!" blah blah blah...

BUT with that being said, after watching what he was used for on Smackdown, I had to say something. Now I get that Ziggler opened his mouth too much about the company and was too opinionated for WWE, blah blah blah, but good God let it go.

Ziggler was used on Smackdown in order to build up the Titus-Darren match going into EC. For those of you that didn't see what happened, Ziggler was made to look like he had no chance in the match and stole the victory with a roll up after Titus was distracted by Young. Ziggler than ran from the ring like a little bitch... really.... THIS is what Ziggler is being used for before Mania? No feud? No title shot? Nothing.
I always said I wasn't going to complain about how Ziggler is used because eventually he will be in the title picture again, but its been a couple years and he has been going nowhere but down.

The question to you is, do you think WWE is still punishing Dolph or have they legitimately given up on him? Also what do you guys want to see Dolph doing after Mania?

 

[TheOneAndOnlyGOAT]

I never ever cared about Ziggler. I don't think he'll amount to anything in WWE.

Seeing him with the World Heavyweight title was the biggest joke ever.

Stop hoping Ziggler will get a push because you'll be disappointed, the whole cocky flamboyant showoff gimmick has been done a thousand times.

He is not believable as a wrestler. What is his role going to be? The cocky heel? Punk and Orton are better at it. The underdog babyface? Bryan and in the future Rollins will fit the role better.

All more talented than Ziggler.

Ziggler is best at being a human punching bag.

 

[obamartins]

When I watch Dolph Ziggler, I see a napoleon complex riddled little man who can only generate substantial crowd reactions in smarky "workrate" territories. Having good workrate is all well & good but you need to be a compelling performer on top of that.

I'm apart of the testosterone fuelled adult male demographic...what am I supposed to like about metrosexual Dolph Ziggler? he lacks size, lacks presence, lacks believability, lacks intensity, lacks charisma, has mediocre promo skills, has a girls voice, wears pink t-shirts etc. In conclusion Dolph Ziggler lacks the intangible X-factor which separates the Brock Lesnar, Batista, Randy Orton, John Cena & Roman Reigns from the Ted DiBiase Jr., Kofi Kingston, The Miz, Curtis Axel & Justin Gabriel.

The only reason Dolph Ziggler got a push in the past is because WWE had a scarcity of genuine main event talent & because they had two World Heavyweight Championships.

 

[Softcore Holly]

The funny thing is if Ziggler was a heel that kind of performance would actually be pretty good.

That being said it wasn't that bad for him. Picking up a win (even with help) is better than losing which is what Dolph has been doing lately. Titus/Young is on the EC card, so it's not surprising for WWE to want to make Titus look good before then with someone that's most likely not performing on Sunday.

As for Ziggler it hasn't been that long, it's only been like 3/4 of a year since he lost his WHC back to ADR. Is he still be punished? Probably not, (I hope) and I say this as a big Ziggler fan. Right now is a lousy time for guys like Dolph who aren't part of a big planned WM storyline, so they generally get little to no attention. Quite frankly I'll be surprised if the Titus/Young thing goes beyond EC since their priorities will be on bigger stars/returning legends. And of course Dolph makes people look good in the ring, so his TV time from now until WM will mainly be used to help guys actually on the WM card. That's not ideal sure but it's pretty much how I expect for him to be used right now.

I would also say it's a little early to say that they given up on him. He's still getting more TV time than a good chuck on the roster, so he's not that badly off. IMO all he really needs to do is keep putting on great matches, say the right things in interviews even if it means a lot of brown-nosing, and most importantly stay out of trouble. If he does all that and with enough time hopefully they'll find something better for him, granted I don't see him being WWEHC since that's way too crowded. Post WM he'll probably be paired up with the Miz, which will hopefully be entertaining.

 

[r3z0raptor]

Stop hoping Ziggler will get a push because you'll be disappointed, the whole cocky flamboyant showoff gimmick has been done a thousand times.

It is a bald assertion that he will be disappointment. Can you offer evidence as to why OP will be disappointed?

Claiming something has been done 1000 times, and supposing it's true, doesn't have any direct reflection on whether that something will sell or not. This is an appeal to numbers, and your second logical fallacy.

He is not believable as a wrestler. What is his role going to be? The cocky heel? Punk and Orton are better at it. The underdog babyface? Bryan and in the future Rollins will fit the role better. All more talented than Ziggler.

He is not believable as a wrestler? Bald assertion number 2. Well. He is a wrestler. I believe he is a wrestler. There. Debunked. It is possible to believe Ziggler is a wrestler. I think you meant to say something along the lines of "his character doesn't connect with people on an emotional level" or something. Please clarify what you meant to say, please.

Are you aware that you are deeming Ziggler unfit to play characters that you have never seen him play? Even worse. You are assuming that and then you are calling other people better at it, adding more bald assertions to your bald assertion collection.

Some of the things you have said may be true, but the problem is that you haven't demonstrated it. As far as disagreeing with someone, you should either do your best to take a hard negative and show why their claims are not true OR take a contrary positive position yourself. Neither call for a collection of bald assertions. The negative calls for shedding doubt in your opponents arguments/assertions. The positive calls for evidence that your contrary claim is correct.

Ziggler is best at being a human punching bag.

Bald assertion, again.

 

[OYDK]

When I watch Dolph Ziggler, I see a napoleon complex riddled little man who can only generate substantial crowd reactions in smarky "workrate" territories. Having good workrate is all well & good but you need to be a compelling performer on top of that.

I'm apart of the testosterone fuelled adult male demographic...what am I supposed to like about metrosexual Dolph Ziggler? he lacks size, lacks presence, lacks believability, lacks intensity, lacks charisma, has mediocre promo skills, has a girls voice, wears pink t-shirts etc. In conclusion Dolph Ziggler lacks the intangible X-factor which separates the Brock Lesnar, Batista, Randy Orton, John Cena & Roman Reigns from the Ted DiBiase Jr., Kofi Kingston, The Miz, Curtis Axel & Justin Gabriel.

The only reason Dolph Ziggler got a push in the past is because WWE had a scarcity of genuine main event talent & because they had two World Heavyweight Championships.

See where you're coming from man. To me it seems like he is similar to Shawn Michaels in the way you either hate him with a passion or you stick by him no matter what.

Personally I have always liked Ziggler because it just seemed to me like he has passion for the business and he USED to wrestle the best match on the card nearly every week.

IMO Ziggler has absolutely NO confidence left in himself due to his booking (exactly what WWE wants btw) and that is why he has fallen off so much, but get him back in the title picture and I guarantee he will show you something. I still have hope only because he has been buried for a while now and people still give him huge pops...

Only disagreement I have with your argument is that he gets substantial crowd reactions... I feel his pop was second only to Punk and Bryan at RR and he wasn't doing shit at that PPV.

 

[JoeFromTomsRiver]

1) Not every person on the WWE roster can be pushed. Just look at all the threads on this board about why certain guys aren't being pushed or are being "buried" (Ziggler, Sandow, Ryback, DREW F'N MCINTYRE). For every guy who is being "de-pushed', that means there is someone BEING pushed. Make sense?

2) For a guy that is supposed to be some arrogant, cocky, "show-off", he has zero personality and a horrible speaking voice. He's an athletic guy who takes great bumps, but outside of the ring he's severely deficient.

 

[jholcomb22]

I've heard rumors that WWE was planning on teaming him up with The Miz, which is the main reason why Miz is only being used to make random appearances during matches to bitch. It would make sense that both men can complain that they are former Champions and are not getting their proper respect. Miz is by far a better tag team wrestler, and I think this would be a good way to get gold around Zigglers waist and put them both in some relevant matches.

 

[L@RISANO]

As many have said, not every one can be pushed.

Dolph Ziggler having that cash-in moment, gave him some type of popularity that has lasted somewhat until today. Thus, WWE has been able to use him as a Glorified Jobber of sorts, whilst due to his slight popularity, if a push is in sight, it can be done more easily than for some others.

I put Dolph and Kofi in the same boat. Two Glorified Mid-Carders who are used to make other guys who are being pushed essentially look good and relevant. With such guys, WWE books them to beat Randy Orton(like Kofi did recently) one week, and the next week, they'll be the jobber in a 6-man tag, or job out to a Del Rio, because they have no program, whilst the other guy does and needs a win vs a credible opponent.

Just the way it is.

 

[Creepy Old Man]

I'm baffled by the support for Ziggler. He has zero presence, no charisma and abysmal mic skills, and ain't over outside the smarky territories. He has a bad case of Napoleon complex, constantly telling us how he's great and deserves things. Pretty sure the real greats just went out there and TOOK it.

 

[Mongoose McQueen]

He's awful. What's so great about him? if anything, I cannot actually think of a reason why shouldn't be buried. He sucks.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

It's because he was always borderline to begin with and then he or those around him just kept fucking up over and over.

1) The Barrett Botch - Blame it on Show as much as you like, it isn't true. Dolph tried to move midair so it looked like his head hit... you can see him twist to do so mid air, Wade had to adjust or it would have hit at full speed and killed him. Zig only got his push cos of this moment, it was Barrett's before this so there will still be some hangover from that, as he hurt someone who has been affected in ring ever since (Wade's arm is clearly an issue these days, probably the main reason he isn't in the ring).

2) His brother was a dick when released - Briarpatch Pierce or whatver his name was got release with some other guys from NXT, some of whom made serious accusations against Bill DeMott... one of the guys who "backed them up" was Pierce, who talked about it when he should have kept quiet in WWE's eyes. not much came of the accusations but Nemeth Jr.s copybook was blotted forever and his brother no doubt took quite a lot of heat for it.

3) The movie - There is a protocol for guys in WWE who appear in movies, they are either part of a WWE Films production or it goes through certain channels (Vince) and more oft than not they get some kind of "in association" or exec producer credit for Mr. McMahon. WWE then announce and hype the casting etc, especially if it's for a big name director... there are issues over the names etc. Dolph got announced in the cast of Max Landis' new film with a Twitter pic of the whole cast by the director... now while this might not be contractually wrong, if he didn't go through channels (i.e. showed up for the photoshoot and got announced before actually clearing it with Vince) or there it was presented as an "I'm doing this.. sorry" then it puts WWE in a bad position. They can't force him out of the film as it reflects badly, but it would add heat to Ziggler and if Vince ain't getting his credit he likes, then that could be a major fire under Ziggler - especially as at some point they have to write him off TV to go film the thing.

4) The interviews - Zig is not backwards in coming forwards about not liking how things are done and his disdain of Cena... more heat.

5) The concussions/safety concerns - This is twofold.. one his safety is suspect, as evidenced in the Barrett incident but even in the EC match he was in, he was taking ridiculous bumps on the steel that didn't actually add anything. There are clearly concerns from Barrett that he can sometimes hurt people by his overselling but he can also damage himself... add to this the concussions, he is now very much a guy WWE has to manage very carefully. Christian had 4 months off for one concussion, Dolph has had 2 in a year, one more and they have to pretty much retire him, which his style is likely to mean cos he is so damn reckless at times.

6) Maybe they realised that his name just flat out sucks... Dolph Ziggler screams "PHONEY WRESTLER NAME" to the world before he shows them anything... if he was going to be pushed it could and should have been under a different name if not his own...

Others make valid points but these 6 things combined mean Dolph is probably gonna remain buried for a long time... Hell look at poor A-Ry or Zack Ryder...

 

[Aquaman6686]

Ziggler is one the top 3 all-around full-time stars in WWE today. He's not being pushed because of politics and how outspoken he is about his frustrations in WWE. Vince and Triple H are both vindictive ego-maniacs and because of their personal dislike for Ziggler, odds are he will never get anything near a main event push again. If he's lucky they might give him a run with the WWE Tag Team Championship or the United States Championship, but unfortunately Ziggler will almost certainly never be allowed to touch the WWE World Heavyweight Championship, despite being more talented than 99.9% of the WWE roster.

 

[Kiri]

Firstly, let me mention that there is no flaw to Ziggler's ability but one. It's his connection with the crowd. His ability in the ring cannot be questioned. He put on great matches with CM Punk throughout 2012 and matches with the likes of Cesaro, Langston and Alberto Del Rio throughout 2013. He's athletic in the ring but his USP is when he takes bumps like no other in the company - only Seth rivals him to that.

Personally, I've found his one flaw is his connection with the crowd. He was a great heel but it is harder to be a face than a heel - I'm sure one wrestler said this but can't remember who. As a babyface, I found it hard to be able to connect to his character but it was just not interesting. He just didn't have a 'thing'. For example, Daniel Bryan's character isn't bigger than life but whats going for him is that he's connecting with the crowd because of that underdog persona.

http://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=2515&page=22"

The above are statistics of Dolph Ziggler's match statistics on a year by year basis. Even though WWE is kayfabe, you should take these for what it's worth. They show how the WWE has been treating Ziggler and it shows he's had a better win ratio than the last two years and they've been increasing. My prediction is that he'll get back to better position past WM30.

http://www.profightdb.com/wrestlers/dolph-ziggler-450.htm

The above is the history of Ziggler's matches in the WWE. If you look carefully, he lost to big time WM players. There's a trend where you can see that he's lost to people who are going to have a more pivotal role at WM. Simply put, he's not in the WWE's WM plans and I don't blame him or them. He's simply not connected with the audience yet and he's better off working his way back to the main event after WM when the main event is less crowded. However, I do believe it will be some time before WWE start pushing him again since there is only 1 title with so many others waiting in the wings for a crack at the title.

 

[Logisticalbooker86]

rez0raptor
Bald assertion, again.

Normally, I try not to be a nitpicker, but BALD ASSERTION IS NOT A PHRASE! It is called a bold assertion. If you are going to attempt turning a phrase three times, please do so correctly.

As for Ziggler, he has not found a way to connect to the casual fan yet. He dotes on his ability to sell moves like a champion but that is certainly not a form of character development. Find something else besides shaking your behind like a creeper, yelling OHHHH like a moron and flipping your hair.

Even refining all of his spastic gyrations, Ziggler must find a way to captivate the audience beyond making the opposition look good.

 

[Bythedockofthebay]

Honestly, he's not being buried, no more than dean malenko or others of that ilk where "buried". I don't like the guy at all but I do see a bit of the appeal. He can have descent matches and has an okay follow but overall he's not a top tier guy. He's an average WWE at best and he's exactly where he should be.

 

[johnchampcena]

Because Ziggler sucks?

He's no fun to watch, he's just another PG Product out there. Just another generic wrestlers who try to act cool on a homo-level(no homo and nothing against them)

But his gimmick is just corny as hell.

 

[Барбоса]

It is hard to come up with anything other than that "he just isn't all that good."

He can have good matches with the right opponent but he can also have some borderline abortions with even middling talent. He oversells too much and has still yet to demonstrate any real understanding of ring psychology.

On top of that, he has failed to make any real personal connection with the crowd and has relied heavily on his female managers to give him any kind of heat.

The highest he should be is the mid-card, challenging for IC/US/tag titles and occasionally being promoted to face the champion in a throwaway TV match.

 

[Messiah]

No, YOU need to let it go.. Who cares if he's being buried? How does that have any effect on you? People spend too much time worrying about people's success and failures in WWE.

WWE has every right to bury Ziggler if he opened his mouth, or they don't think he can draw money. There are so many talented guys in WWE, you can't expect all of them to be main-eventers or even mid-carders. How is Ziggler any more talented than guys like Randy Orton, Daniel Byan, John Cena ect... He's not, he's nowhere close to their level.


So just let it go. Ziggler being buried is really not a big deal... Believe me, It's not... You'll live OP, don't worry.

 

[Messiah]

It is a bald assertion that he will be disappointment. Can you offer evidence as to why OP will be disappointed?

Claiming something has been done 1000 times, and supposing it's true, doesn't have any direct reflection on whether that something will sell or not. This is an appeal to numbers, and your second logical fallacy.




He is not believable as a wrestler? Bald assertion number 2. Well. He is a wrestler. I believe he is a wrestler. There. Debunked. It is possible to believe Ziggler is a wrestler. I think you meant to say something along the lines of "his character doesn't connect with people on an emotional level" or something. Please clarify what you meant to say, please.

Are you aware that you are deeming Ziggler unfit to play characters that you have never seen him play? Even worse. You are assuming that and then you are calling other people better at it, adding more bald assertions to your bald assertion collection.

Some of the things you have said may be true, but the problem is that you haven't demonstrated it. As far as disagreeing with someone, you should either do your best to take a hard negative and show why their claims are not true OR take a contrary positive position yourself. Neither call for a collection of bald assertions. The negative calls for shedding doubt in your opponents arguments/assertions. The positive calls for evidence that your contrary claim is correct.




Bald assertion, again.

You're just a Ziggler mark, so everything you say is irrelevant. Wrestling fans are the most biased fans in the world. They won't dare say anything negative about their favorite wrestler, and bitch at the people who do

He's only going to be used to put over talents, because he's a "great seller", and from what i heard, that's ALL he's good at. Maybe if he developed more skill, other than just being able to "sell", he would get a push... Until then, quit whining about him.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

rez0raptor
Bald assertion, again.

Normally, I try not to be a nitpicker, but BALD ASSERTION IS NOT A PHRASE! It is called a bold assertion. If you are going to attempt turning a phrase three times, please do so correctly.

As for Ziggler, he has not found a way to connect to the casual fan yet. He dotes on his ability to sell moves like a champion but that is certainly not a form of character development. Find something else besides shaking your behind like a creeper, yelling OHHHH like a moron and flipping your hair.

Even refining all of his spastic gyrations, Ziggler must find a way to captivate the audience beyond making the opposition look good.

I...or rather Hulk Hogan begs to differ...and thus I guess Vince cos all Hogan brings IS bald assertions... DZ has not and never has sold like a champ but a guy trying too hard to overcompensate... it's called ragdolling for a reason...cos it's disposable

If your selling is noticeable and a trait...you're kinda missing the point, it's supposed to be the unnoticed thing, everyone else who ever got the title/over managed it... He couldn't

 

[BaconBits]

Dolph is on TV regularly, right?

That's not buried.

People like JTG are buried.

He's not on TV regularly, if at all.

Your thread fails.

 

[lil steroid meat]

Hopefully he'll be able to use that proposed Miz tag Team to his advantage to get over.

But if he wants to be the focal point of a company he might be better off going to TNA, ROH, Chikara or NJPW. WWE's main event scene looks very crowded for the next few years.

Definitely talented and maybe he will prove his worth to the WWE brass with the Miz tag team.

 

[HBKistheHOF]

As a long time Dolph Ziggler fan & supporter, the biggest issue I've had with him for awhile now is that he simply doesn't back up what he says. He constantly talks about how he is the best guy out their & he works harder than everyone else but the simple fact is that he isn't & he doesn't or else he wouldn't be in the spot he is in currently.

Don't get me wrong, Ziggles has tons of potential still & should be booked a helluva lot better than he is being booked right now. But there is a plethora of great new talent in the WWE & if Ziggler doesn't really step up his game he will continue to fall back in line. Even guys I wouldn't say are better than him or guys that I don't necessarily like better like The Usos or Titus O'Neil are much more captivating & entertaining right now with what they are given (although what a superstar is given by creative always plays a crucial role).

The promo Ziggler gave a few weeks ago on the WWE App was great & showed the kind of fire that I really want to see from him moving forward. I don't see Ziggler entering the WWE WHC Title picture anytime soon but maybe a solid feud with a guy like Randy Orton after he drops the title could be good for Ziggler post-Mania. Almost anything would be better than how he is used currently... except for teaming with The Miz, that would just be a nightmare & more or less the end of DZ's career.

 

[Sabutage]

I'm a fan of his wrestling style, look ( although I wish they had stuck with his short hair make over a few years back instead of ditching it so quickly) and his mic work. I think he's talented to be given a much more substantial role or storyline in WWE right now, especially this time of year. Unfortunately the competition is fierce and not everyone can get that opportunity. Dolph had a good run a while back which was cut short and people like DB and Rollins are hotter right now so obviously they will go with them.

It sucks for his fans, myself included, but its something that I have learnt to accept while following WWE all this time. I'm still hopeful he'll get bigger opportunities again in the future.