Why does the IWC care so much about wrestling ability?

[Rich the UK WWE Fan 2k14]

The IWC needs to get over themselves IMO, they have been bitching and crying and flooding Twitter and Facebook with #wewantpunk statuses for weeks! Get over it, Punk walked out, it happened, deal with it.

And the fact that they are in love with CM Punk and Daniel Bryan at the expense of almost everyone else sucks serious ass IMO.

 

[Skyeborne]

A couple of things I have noticed in this thread will be mixed into this post. This is my first discussion post here in awhile, I am trying to get back into wrestling with the new WWE Network.

First, it's ironic that people talk about how boring wrestling is today when the in ring wrestling is just as good if not better than it has been. As John Cena said WWE is close to having the best roster they have had in a long time! The in ring isn't the problem with wrestling today, its the writing. Rock vs. Austin wasn't the best in-ring wrestling match, the story made it good and your memories are what make it amazing. Taking off the rose colored glasses you can see it was the story that made it great. Today WWE gives you no reason to care.

One of the first posts was about video games. Let's look at some of the top selling video games and compare it to wrestling. The first is one of my personal favorites, The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim. It was one of the most anticipated games of 2012, and won all kinds of game of the year awards. It had a great story, great graphics, the game was beautiful. However, the game was filled with bugs. On one console you couldn't have too many game saves or too large of files. People still considered it game of the year with all the bugs. Comparing this to wrestling, the match doesn't have to be the best. There can be botches. What makes something good is the story and basically the spots.

Second we will look at arguably the best game of last year: The Last of Us. Naughty Dog showed how artistic they could be with the PS3 exclusive Last of Us. Overall it was a common story, end of the world zombie apocalypse and they mixed in very repetitive game play. Why was it one of the best then? A lot of people don't even play the game, they watch someone else play it or they just watch the cut scenes and make it a movie. The story and the way Naughty Dog makes you invest in the character makes it great.

tl;dr: Story > in-ring work

 

[WWFan79]

It's the Tough Enough generation. All the same 'chain' moves and sets, spots, etc. is what they're accustomed to.

I would say the first real proponent of cheering the guy that's good in the ring, but wasn't given their 'just' dues was Jericho fans, than Eddie, Benoit, Malenko.

A guy like Big Boss Man literally just went into the ring, with minimal training and no need to learn how to do moonsaults, and arm drags. But he was entertaining both in and out of the ring and money everywhere he went.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

WWE

World Wrestling Entertainment

Hmmm I wonder why

Wrestling is still an important component in the product. It's where the action lies and the story is further told. I am not saying technical wrestling or stuff like that but in ring work that displays a wrestler's athleticism as well as their ability to create drama from it.

Plus my belief is, especially these days, is that the wrestling match is the climax of a feud. All the promos and stories all lead to a wrestling match. And I firmly believe PPV's and House Shows live in die if fans can trust the people in the card to have good matches, if not might as well skip the PPV's and don't attend house shows and just watch RAW every week.

So yeah Wrestling ability is important. If The Rock was entertaining but had little wrestling ability, I can just watch free TV to catch his promos and catch phrases and just not order PPV's knowing that his actual in ring work is terrible.

Also keep in mind Wrestling Ability does not equal to Technical Ability only. Ric Flair is often considered one of the best in ring workers out there but he's hardly what you call a technical wrestler.

You highlighted the wrong word. It's the one word that separates "pro wrestling" from "olympic wrestling" ENTERTAINMENT. If you want to see technical wrestling, that's what ACTUAL wrestling is for. WWE is for entertainment purposes so a guy HAS to be able to talk to get over. If he can't, it doesn't matter how good he is in the ring.

 

[LoudClearVoice]

A couple of things I have noticed in this thread will be mixed into this post. This is my first discussion post here in awhile, I am trying to get back into wrestling with the new WWE Network.

First, it's ironic that people talk about how boring wrestling is today when the in ring wrestling is just as good if not better than it has been. As John Cena said WWE is close to having the best roster they have had in a long time! The in ring isn't the problem with wrestling today, its the writing. Rock vs. Austin wasn't the best in-ring wrestling match, the story made it good and your memories are what make it amazing. Taking off the rose colored glasses you can see it was the story that made it great. Today WWE gives you no reason to care.



tl;dr: Story > in-ring work

I agree but do you know what made their story great??? They both were excellent on the mic and could connect with the crowds. That's what made their feuds compelling. 95% of the current WWE can't talk on the mic and yet the writing is blamed. I do agree to some extent that at times the writing is not very good BUT for a majority of the roster, it doesn't matter how good the writing is. They have no charisma and can't talk. The script is only half of it, it's how the guy pulls off that script that really makes or breaks him.

 

[The AntMan]

Wrestling matches are entertaining to me and so are storylines and promos. CM Punk and Daniel Bryan are favorites of mine and I tend to skew smaller when it comes to my favorites. However, I do enjoy other types of wrestlers as well. For me a good storyline can be hurt by matches I don't enjoy, whereas a good match can usually be viewed out of context and still be enjoyed. A lot of times you have to watch weeks of programming to get the full scope of a storyline though.

I mean storylines were added to wrestling to enhance the matches, not the other way round.

 

[TheT]

IWC are people that never had attention in school.

So they hate everyone that gets attention and became mainstream.

That's IWC psychology. It's hate for them who get's loved and attention.

Because the random IWC are lonely man behind a computer.

Hate is self reflection from within.

So true.

IWC looks like that on things. They hate when their favourites became to mainstream. They can't relate to it. They are sad human beings behind the computare. Sad.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

well I'm a Indy wrestler...i was trained by a former WWE wrestler, not Billy bob lol. Technical wrestling, the way actual wrestlers use the term, just means that someone can make moves look devastating while keeping his opponent completely safe. This is most likely what Bret meant when he said Orton was the best technical wrestler. I agree 100% with what you said about the technical wrestlers just being a type of character. I've only been wrestling for 3 years and I bet that I can do any chain grappling or submission that Daniel Bryan can do. Its just a term the commentators use to try to get guys over. The IWC is mostly full of idiots that dont understand anything about putting on an actual match, but talk as if they know everything about the business. The IWC thinks that chain grappling for 15 minutes followed by 30 minutes of 3000 random high impact moves is a great match....u know ROH style. IMO its all about entertainment, the best entertainers are the best wrestlers. I always thought Bret Hart was boring as hell and I hate almost all of his matches but thats a matter of opinion.

Then you're rare lol. There is sooo much to it that people don't notice. Spacing, selling properly (when to bump, when to stumble, etc). I agree with you about the IWC thinking the basic chain grappling followed by headdrops and killing each others finish is technical. One thing I've learned from my (basic) training is to watch a guy's head. The head should always be protected.

I also feel like there is an art to making something look like a struggle. Alex Shelley can do a 12 step submission in 3 seconds and it looks really cool, but it looks fake as hell. Daniel Bryan can (especially in an intimate indy environment) make an arm wringer look like the most painful thing in the world. Which one is the better wrestler? The one that did the choreographed bullshit or the one who made you cringe?

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

Admin delete this post, it's a duplicate.

 

[TWJC: The Beginning]

I disagree with you slightly, I know amateur wrestling, and I think that Kurt Angle has great technical skill. Plus, it's pretty simply defined by the difficulty of the moves plus how seamlessly a performer executes said move, and how it fits into the wrestling match properly.


Well for one it is a little ridiculous to call Orton the best when the Angle is around. Whether you believe there is a real definition for it or not. I think that I've given a pretty descent one. BTW Cena's always been a great wrestler. Maybe not the most technical guy but his transitions and how he controls matches is truly remarkable.


Agreed, but that doesn't mean you take all the skill out of it just because he's big.


I believe that is part of a technical match. The transitions, how believable it is, and how the performers execute the match.


I see what you're saying, but I personally wouldn't. It all has to come together, and those matches don't and I doubt anyone even those people who praise it would call it a technical masterpiece




Yes it's a work, but it's still a performance, and if an actor sucks horrible and is awful in a scene people will remember that and say it sucks.

Dude, amateur wrestling technique and pro wrestling technique are complete opposites in mindset. Angle even says so in his book. In amateur wrestling it's about leverage, being faster than your opponent, doing it fast, being instinctive, etc. In pro wrestling, it's a cohesive act, slowing it down, and making it look good, and thinking about what you're going to do. Being able to execute basic amateur moves in a pro wrestling setting isn't that hard.

This is something I really hate actually. Kurt Angle is an olympic gold medalist in wrestling. This does NOT mean he's the most technical pro wrestler in the world and it doesn't mean he has to be even in the consideration. Many pros have said he is, so I believe them (probably has more to do with being a world class athlete). Too many in the IWC say "well this guy has an amateur background, thus, technical". No, not actually. As a gimmic? Yes, definitely push that. It makes sense to a layman. However it doesn't actually make sense if you think about it. Would LeBron James be the best actor in a basketball movie? No, he may be able to execute realistic basketball moves. However, emoting, dialogue, all the other things that go into being an actor means he probably won't be the best actor. Just good at a small portion of what it takes to make the movie.

Gymnists and other people with a high level athletic background generally make good pro wrestlers too. It has more to do with athletic ability and coordination than anything else. It's just that if you're a high level amateur wrestler, they make that part of your gimmick.

 

[Max K]

This is more of a WWE question, but in a lot of ways it could apply to TNA and the indy promotions as well.

Why does the IWC care so much about whether or not one guy is more talented in the ring than someone else? And in what way does that somehow make the show more entertaining?

WWE has a specific set of moves they allow every performer to use, and outside of the occasional surprise, this is all we see of them in the ring. It makes absolutely no difference whether that's all they've been trained to know or not. Even I've been critical of wrestling ability from time to time, but it's usually in the case of someone like The Great Khali or Eva Marie, who simply put, can't move in the ring AT ALL. Even a 3 year old fan in a Cena shirt could see they don't know what they're doing, and only then does it affect the show. Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

I've also noticed that most of the best wrestlers in the current WWE locker room are also the worst entertainers in the company. Natalya was trained in the Hart dungeon, but has a nonexistent character, terrible acting, and the personality of a cardboard box. Antonio Cesaro is a beast in the ring, but I cringe every time the guy opens his mouth to talk...or in some cases, yodel. I don't care about his 5 different languages, being very European, or even a real American. Tyson Kidd, Jack Swagger, Seth Rollins, etc. etc. - all superb in the ring, but as stale as leftover bread where it actually counts.

WWE is sports entertainment company, and they are all examples of terrible sports entertainers. The casual fans usually don't care about how good or bad someone legitimately is, so why should we?

I can't speak for the IWC. Even though I'm on the net, I find that my opinions are not popular here. It use to be that wrestling ability was all someone had to get them over. That and maybe the occasional old school (read: Good) promo. I think those were the better days. Most people hate me for this but I blame The Rock for destroying that. Now wrestlers have to lower themselves to spitting out lame catchphrases to garner the attention of listless assholes who don't give a shit about wrestling. These people that you mentioned Natalya/Cesaro have traveled the world and worked for years entertaining actual wrestling fans only to get called up to WWE and find out that everything they lived for isn't worth shit to most of the bums who buy WWE tickets and walk around in XXXL John Cena shirts. Cesaro himself could open up a school with all the people who have trained under him and Natalya has trained not only in the dungeon but in Japan as well. Both of them are capable of putting out classic promos but WWE has forgone that in favor of live promos in front of a bunch of jeering idiots. Nobody can get over in that situation unless WWE puts their full force behind them (which they don't).

As far as why do I care about wrestling ability? Because I'm a wrestling fan. Something clicks in my head when Cesaro deadlifts someone and carries them around like a rag doll before performing a flawless gutwrench suplex. Something clicks in my head when Natalya holds her opponent perfectly still in the midst of a vertical suplex only to start doing squats before she ultimately drops her opponent to the mat.

I often wonder the opposite. What's so entertaining about watching bodybuilders talk on a microphone, pausing every ten seconds so a bunch of idiots can say "What"?

If you ask me many of these people aren't wrestling fans. It's like me putting an F1 style wing on my grandma's front wheel drive civic and calling myself a racing fan.

 

[Robert Roode Fan]

Here is the thing you do not need to have technical ability to have a great match , you need to just have ability. Let us look at a guy like Randy Orton shall we, since he was mentioned.

Randy does not have the best technical ability in the world, but he knows how to put on a good brawl style wrestling match, which is used by guys like austin, rock, hogan, warrior. They were all able to tell a great story in the ring. So were guys like hart, angle, and hbk who have the technical ability. If you have technical style match that does not mean you don't know how to tell a story.

In the end it does not matter how good you are in the ring, but if you cannot tell a story, then you cannot wrestle, that is how I see it.

Guys like Jack Evans and Teddy hart suck horribly because they cannot tell a story in the ring, they are just spot monkeys. Which for people out there, just because someone like Daniels does some spots during a match does not mean he is a spot monkey, same with aj. Spot monkeys are a lot of the people in Mexico, those guys just plain suck, dont know how to tell a story.

Your favorite wrestler the Miz should not be depushed, why because he can tell a story, I would much rather watch a miz match than a jack evans match.

Also many wrestlers need to have mic skills. Some can get away with it, if they can tell a story in the ring(orton), but if they cannot well they are not going to get pushed.

 

[jc_ultimate]

I guess I find this to be a curious question. If professional wrestling was only about who is the best actor then honestly why would anyone even watch it?

The best actor of all time that was a professional wrestler was without a doubt the Rock. Is Mr. Johnson a great actor in the pantheon of actors? Well, with all due to respect to those who are fans of the Fast series or the Tooth Fairy, I would submit that he absolutely is not.

If I want to see great Hollywood acting on TV then I'll turn to the Bryan Cranstons, Peter Dinklages, and Joe Hamms of the world long before I ever will the Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold Steve Austins and Hulk Hogans.

If you ask me part of the problem with the current professional wrestling product is that they are asking the performers to be actors rather than wrestlers. To me the bottom line is that Dolph Ziggler will never be Daniel Day Lewis or Leonardo DiCaprio, so asking him to be such by reciting a scripted promo is ridiculous. Most of these guys who are given a few seconds to say a line or two, you can actually see them in their mind be like crap what is my line hope I don't screw this up. If they had a few bullet points and were given time to say what they felt it would come across much better in my opinion.

If you don't like great matches, be they either in a brawling, high flying, fast paced, or slow dramatic style then well... all I can say is that you are a fan of bad acting and pretty awful scripts. The best story lines in wrestling history are basically what? Some guys switched companies and thought this new company sucked (nWo) and my boss tried to screw me over (Austin/Vince). Groundbreaking story telling there.

 

[Royal12]

Smarks/IWC the real ugly ones, hate when people get to mainstream.

So you should have wrestling ability - before charisma.

It's like in all music, sports etc they hate when their band get to much mainstream.

Then they drop them and move on.

The real IWC got so much hate in their body that they feed of hate 24/7.

They are sad and lonely.