Why do so many people hate ECW?

[PsychoBlack]

ECW was ok back when it first started. Slowly but surely they turned to shit though. Heyman's booking was just stupid, You give the most over guy in the company a midcard title to hold for two fucking years? That's the equivalent to Austin being Intercontinental champ from 1998 to 2000 it's just dumb. At a certain point you have to do what's right for business. They went from having excellent matches to hitting each other with frying oans it just went south in a hurry.

 

[HBKperfect23]

ECW deinitly had some compelling storylines and some great matchs. I never really dug the "hardcore" style. I think it was very bad for the future of wrestling. Cornette put it well "if you hit somebody 6x with a baseball bat and you dont kill them, your a pussy". It was such an overkill. It brought out the spot fest. For every Malenko/Eddie classic there was 25 matchs consisting of two nobodys hitting each other for real for dog shit pay. I live in Philly and have been offered free tickets numerous times and couldnt even be sold on that.

 

[Rampage Bentley]

The only people who think ECW was good are idiots. Sorry, you've outed yourself.

ECW was a rinky dink 2-bit promotion, that has been blown WAY out of proportion, both in terms of how relevant it really was and how good it was. ECW was crap. It was poorly run, poorly booked and featured poor talent. Anyone with even a SHRED of ability got out of there as soon as they could. It didn't appeal to wrestling fans, it appealed to people whose mental stability I seriously question. Anyone who thinks wrestling is about falling off of high things and hitting each other in the head with trash cans is an idiot.

Of course all of the ECW apologists will starting whining, "what about Malenko and Mysterio and Guerrero and Jericho"? Yes, what about them? They were there for a cup of coffee, and got the hell out as soon as they found another promotion who could actually offer them a decent job.

ECW was garbage, and it amazes me that people can still think otherwise.

Someone liking ECW does not make them an idiot... they're looking fondly on something from their past... I loved ECW, because I was like fourteen when I started watching it...

Was ECW good? Lord, no. But ECW's crowning achievement isn't ECW itself, it's the way it helped shaped WWE's "Attitude Era." WWE's most prolific and profitable time was, in part, influenced by ECW.

Regardless of how long they were there, ECW was a medium for guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Mysterio to get noticed. Would Chris Jericho be where he is today if not for the spotlight ECW shined on him? I like to think yes, but we really don't know. What about guys like Rob Van Dam, Taz, and Lance Storm who didn't leave ECW first chance they got?

What about Steve Austin? WWE took notice of him in ECW, without the soap box Paul Heyman gave him, who knows if "Stone Cold" would have ever happened? As talented as he is, success is limited to opportunity.

ECW's legacy and true contribution to pro-wrestling was not it's matches or even it's product at all, it's the (few good) talent it produced and influence it had on the WWE.

 

[JJ15776]

Does anybody else see the irony in SlyFox's idiocy disguised as responses?

You see, as much as he likes to run down ECW, his posts actually have a lot in common with ECW, for his posts so far have been garbage. They're poorly thought out, poorly written, and feature poor arguments. They're an alternative to intelligent, rational, mature responses. That's right, they're the gay porn/dog shit/ECW of posts.

But to respond to the OP, most people that I know that hate ECW do so because it blew. Hard. "The most talented wrestling" you had ever seen? Really? What, exactly, was the talent? You could go into any low end bar in the country and see that stuff on a typical weekend. At least there, you'd get realistic results from the weapons usage. Ok, I get that the cruiserweights had some flashy moves, but there was still no substance. That's why the talented guys that ECW had left the first milisecond that WWF or WCW saw that talent and offered them a contract. A grand total of ONE talented wrestler was still on the ECW roster the day they closed. And he was a huge pothead! Think about that for a second. What does that tell you about them? I think that says it all, in a lot of ways.

Personally, I hated ECW because they did damage to the entire industry of professional wrestling that's taken 10 years to begin the recovery. Don't get me wrong, I can tolerate a little hardcore wrestling. Thumbtacks, barbed wire, flaming tables, whatever else ECW came up with...I don't want to see that crap. And that's what ECW was forced to resort to, brecause they had to keep "pushing the limits." All that did was desensitize wrestling fans to things that used to be a big deal. Giving a guy a piledriver on a chair used to be something that had crowds ready to riot. ECW made it look like a headlock, and that had a knockdown effect on every wrestling promotion, and WWE is just now recovering from it. And they've had to resort to the PG Era, with practically no weapons at all and absolutely no blood, to do it. They've had to go to the other extreme(no pun intended) to make fans forget about what had become the norm, so that expectations can be more realistic again. That's right, I'm blaming ECW for the PG era. You may think I'm being facetious, but I'll tell you one thing. They're a hell of a lot more responsible for the PG era in an indirect way than they are the Attitude Era in a direct or indirect or any other way, and people love to give them credit for that.

People say ECW pushed limits like it's a good thing. You know what? Some limits aren't supposed to be pushed. And limits don't need to be pushed every single week. It's just not a sustainable business model. It's something people resort to when they're not talented enough to succeed any other way. Look at WWF's Attitude Era. That's pushing the limit in a reasonable, intelligent way. They didn't push the limit every single week. They pushed the limit when they needed to. That's why they were so much more successful than ECW and why they won the war with WCW.

 

[klunderbunker]

Why do I hate ECW? I hate it because everyone thought it was cool so everyone tried to emulate it and it messed up wrestling for a very long time. All of a sudden we've got Brian Knoobs and Hak and Raven having "hardcore" matches in WCW. Why? Because the WWF had a hardcore division. Why? Because they were trying to incorporate more adult stuff (the older hardcore matches that is, not Al Snow vs. Road Dogg). Why? Because WCW was dominating them with the NWO. Why? Because Bischoff wanted to be more adult like ECW was being. Why? Because Eric Bischoff hasn't had an original idea in roughly 20 years in wrestling so he steals them from other people and reuses them with different logos and slogans on t-shirts while claiming he came up with all this stuff. Why did ECW have more adult oriented storylines? Because no one wanted to see Don Muraco and Jimmy Snuka having old folks conventions in 1993.

Let's see. Why else don't I like ECW? Probably because they introduced guys like New Jack (yes I know about SMW), Sandman, Tommy Dreamer with his "I MISS ECW" schtick, and all of the people that like to think that they're cashing in on things by bringing back ECW guys for a tribute show like Hardcore Justice two years ago.

In short, it's because people WON'T SHUT UP ABOUT IT. It was a niche product with guys that weren't good enough to get jobs elsewhere and the ones that did get such offers left, probably because Heyman couldn't pay them or they got tired of having to have chairs in every match they were in. Yeah a lot of talent was there, but a lot of talent has been in a lot of small companies. Where's OVW's tribute thread? Where's their PPV?

Instead we have to hear from a bunch of people whose blood lust isn't fulfilled by wrestling because it's not edgy enough for them anymore so they go on long rants about how exciting ECW was and how hard hitting it was. You know who else was hard hitting and took a bunch of crazy bumps and was in ECW? Chris Benoit, the guy whose brain was so bashed in that he went on a killing spree. But hey, the fans got to hear some REALLY hard shots to the head with weapons right?

But Benoit is an isolated case. I mean, other than him, its not like a bunch of ECW guys have died young. I mean it's not like a ton of drug addicts worked there and died since it closed or anything. And it's not like there are now a bunch of imitation companies like CZW and all kinds of ultra violent companies that have a bunch of kids that have no idea how to properly take half of these moves but are willing to have a light tube broken over their heads and might know how to do a headlock so they call themselves professional wrestlers.

Was there good wrestling in ECW at times? Yes there was. Was it the focus of it? No it wasn't and using it as an argument that ECW was good is ridiculous. It was a small portion of the company, which you can tell by looking at the name: EXTREME Championship Wrestling.

I dislike ECW because it featured a bunch of people that weren't talented enough to make it elsewhere but were in front of a bunch of people that thought they were too smart to watch WWF and WCW so they got behind an indy company and kept demanding more and more from it until it overextended and went out of business. Then you have to hear all the time about how Heyman was this ultra genius and how he's the only person that can save wrestling. What exactly it would be saved from has yet to be explained but apparently it needs saving.

So yeah, that's why I dislike ECW: it wasn't that good, you have to hear about how great it was every five minutes, and it ruined a lot of wrestling for a very long time because for some reason, mainstream companies decided it was cutting edge and brilliant when all it was was different.

Oh and before you bother quoting me and explaining why I'm an idiot and don't get it, I likely won't bother replying because most ECW fans are irrational and there's little point to arguing with them. Also quit reporting people that disagree with you. It's not flaming.

 

[mdj2010]

I guess it all comes down to what your understanding of 'wrestling' is. Take Rey Mysterio, one of the finest in ring performers of all time, yet there were people who couldn't stand his work in WCW, they simply didn't get it. There was no ring psychology, no story told, just a bunch of acrobatics. There are many pro wrestlers who would consider this to lack the true art of professional wrestling.
I guess the same goes for what ECW once was and we all have our line.
Personally,I think ECW did some great stuff, but like any wrestling promotion, they had their fair share of crap. I also have a line where I struggle to see the entertainment - ever seen any of the Necro Butcher's matches? Nuff said!

 

[Richard Blonoff]

I've stated my opinion once but I'd like to state how much I agree with the first half of KBs argument. To this day you still have some of the originals trying to hold reunion shows so they can make a quick buck. Part of it may be because they really miss ECW but part of it is because they have little to no actual skill other than taking big bumps and no other legit promotion will give them work.

And I get so tired of Tommy Dreamer. You miss ECW? Maybe if you had developed some form of actual wrestling skills and moves over the years other than a DDT, a Death Valley Driver, a piledriver and the ability to take chair and kendo stick shots you could find regular work

 

[GoShtate]

ECW was fun at the time. As a 3rd promotion option it was fantastic. A lot of guys who would midcard WCW and WWF events were really born in ECW. The Dudleyz gimmick, Rhyno, RVD, etc were all born there. They were over. The crowd bought into anything. One thing no one can deny is that the drama in that building was incredible almost every night. A lot of people who couldn't cut it else where busted there ass in ECW while they were there. I don't know why anyone doesn't at least respect it.

I mean, sure the company was a sinking ship and made no money but it never effected the shows.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

ECW was fun at the time. As a 3rd promotion option it was fantastic. A lot of guys who would midcard WCW and WWF events were really born in ECW. The Dudleyz gimmick, Rhyno, RVD, etc were all born there. They were over. The crowd bought into anything. One thing no one can deny is that the drama in that building was incredible almost every night. A lot of people who couldn't cut it else where busted there ass in ECW while they were there. I don't know why anyone doesn't at least respect it.

I mean, sure the company was a sinking ship and made no money but it never effected the shows.

They did bust there ass and like I said earlier ECW was sort of fun for a short while in my early teens. I think the reason they don't get the respect is that almost anyone can go out and take those weapon shots and blade and fall from the scaffold. There isn't much skill in that.

 

[Honkey_Kong]

If you guys ever look at the ages of the people who typically hate on ECW, they're usually not old enough to have remembered watching it. Let's face it, in most markets it was on way after your bedtimes (if you were even alive then). Through most of ECW's years, I lived in Los Angeles where it was on at 3am on Thursday nights. So you got a bunch of douches on here, who never watched the product when it was on the air, parroting what some other idiot loud-texted mark says about how lame ECW was (those guys they're parroting probably never watched the show during it's time) just because they want to sound "internet cool."

Was every match in ECW good? No, but name one promotion where from opener to main event on every card there was fantastic wrestling? What the did have was compelling angles, appealing to our prurient interests (Francine, Kimona, Dawn, Tammy, etc), brutal violence, and some great matches.

There was also a sense of believability in their product. The fans didn't use ******ed words to describe their liking of the product such as "entertaining." That's one of the problems with wrestling today, WWF in the 80's and WWF/WCW for the first half of the 90's. They worked such ******ed gimmicks, angles and their matches were so sterile for the most part, nobody would could honestly suspend disbelief. Now a days, the same shit goes on and to justify the fact you can't reasonably believe in their product you have to call it "entertaining." Wrestling isn't supposed to be "entertaining," it's supposed to make you believe it's as real as a heart-attack (even if you really know it's not) and captivated in the product. And that's what ECW was about.

On top of that, ECW was copied by WWF/E and WCW relentlessly. Not just the gimmick "hardcore" match, but also the angles. Don't believe that? Look at when Stone Cold got crucified on Undertaker's symbol. I wonder where they got that idea from?

 

[rkovoices]

I've stated my opinion once but I'd like to state how much I agree with the first half of KBs argument. To this day you still have some of the originals trying to hold reunion shows so they can make a quick buck. Part of it may be because they really miss ECW but part of it is because they have little to no actual skill other than taking big bumps and no other legit promotion will give them work.

Well yeah, of course they're out to make a quick buck. Half of them left ECW with months of unpaid work.

And I get so tired of Tommy Dreamer. You miss ECW? Maybe if you had developed some form of actual wrestling skills and moves over the years other than a DDT, a Death Valley Driver, a piledriver and the ability to take chair and kendo stick shots you could find regular work

I agree. Maybe if he did develop some skill and more moves, he'd be on tv somewhere. Maybe. Only being good for spots will only get you so far. But, I have to respectably disagree as well. There's been wrestlers with little to no skill and have yet to stretch they move pool make it far into the business. I mean, Hogan did the same moves his whole career. He had very little skill outside the mic and only reason he went anywhere was cuz he "had the look." Another good yet popular and cliche example, John Cena. Sure, he can work the mic when he wants, can get the crowd to react, and rarely uses other moves out of his comfort zone. But that's it. His movepool has drastically shrunk since his early days. Oh, he also "has the look." Other than that, nothing.

 

[Richard Blonoff]

Well yeah, of course they're out to make a quick buck. Half of them left ECW with months of unpaid work.



I agree. Maybe if he did develop some skill and more moves, he'd be on tv somewhere. Maybe. Only being good for spots will only get you so far. But, I have to respectably disagree as well. There's been wrestlers with little to no skill and have yet to stretch they move pool make it far into the business. I mean, Hogan did the same moves his whole career. He had very little skill outside the mic and only reason he went anywhere was cuz he "had the look." Another good yet popular and cliche example, John Cena. Sure, he can work the mic when he wants, can get the crowd to react, and rarely uses other moves out of his comfort zone. But that's it. His movepool has drastically shrunk since his early days. Oh, he also "has the look." Other than that, nothing.

Hogan is a terrific example of a guy who got over without skill. I would even argue, that aside from getting people pumped about Hulkamania, he had little mic skills. Cena is a decent example as well. I have no doubt in my mind that Dreamer isn't a nice guy outside the ring. I'd probably like to have a drink with the guy. It does suck that he can't find consistent work in the business and he was owed a couple hundred thousand dollars when ECW went under but ultimately he dug a good portion of his own grave

 

[My Couch Pulls Out But I Don't]

ECW was a mixed bag for me.

I wasn't really a fan of the "bash you with a chair over and over again" style of wrestling. But when they had the likes of Chris Jericho, Eddie Guererro, Chris Benoit, Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio and all of the luchadores etc... you were able to see come classic match ups. These guys would put on a clinic but it was way overshadowed with the over-the-top hardcore matches that ended in tons of bloodshed. Heyman was a genius for finding these guys and giving them air time. He was also an idiot for not adapting to what was more mainstream and cutting down on the "hardcore extreme" to get a TV deal, make money, and keep them around.

If you go back and watch the tapes of ECW, most of the matches that would be 5-star, either contained these guys and/or didn't have a drop of blood shed at all. Why this wasn't emphasized more, I will never know.

The fan base was rabid and it had a very, very loyal cult following. Personally, I think that fan base is one of the reasons it went under. They wanted more extreme, hardcore, bloody brawls and with that kind of action going on from first bell to last bell, no network would put it on TV. The lack of exposure ended up costing Heyman. That and his inability to use a budget.

Don't get me wrong, Paul Heyman was an excellent booker but he was also a very, very poor business man. I'd like to think this is why none of those guys stuck around long. He wasn't able to promote very well and we all know how the promotion ended.

When your talent gets a much higher offer from WWF, and tells you that all it would take to stay is a $1 raise (Dudleys) and you can't do that...it's pretty much the end of the line.

I will give credit to their "stars" that stuck around until it closed (Dreamer, Sandman, Sabu, Rhyno [I think]). Nowadays if a company was going under and everyone knew it, they would be jumping to the nearest ship possible. For that I respect them. For all the bloody, chair swinging, ladder spinning, barbedwire wrapping, table breaking...I'll go ahead and pass my respect to someone else.

 

[I Heart Cena]

I was just browsing over some topics here on the forums and I have heard it outside these forums before also. Why do so many people hate the fact that ECW used to be around?

The first time I saw ECW, I was probably 11 years old, I was flipping through late night tv one night and landed on ECW. I asked myself, what is this? It looks like some cheap budget indy wrestling. I decided to take a chance and what I saw was purely amazing. I was still watching WCW at the time and started following ECW also. I loved it, these guys were taking it to the limit, it was honestly the most talented wrestling I had ever seen. The cruiserweights and how they would move around the ring, the technicality of the bigger men who could move and put on a show and of course the hardcore side of things, men taking punishment like no other.

I got my feel from ECW that I could not get from WCW or at the time, the occasional watched WWF. ECW amazed me and the fans were the most fucking loyal fan base I had ever heard and seen on the television. As a wrestler for ECW, you knew the fans always had your back and would defend you to the bone.

After reading all the comments about how ECW was "garbage wrestling" or "pathetic" or blah blah blah, I really wanted to puke. I guess people just can't see amazing when it is there.

In your opinion, what did you think?

I agree with you 100%. Actually, I discovered it the same way and had the same reaction you did.

I can't stand these wannabe smarks that don't like the real ECW. Good thing I've hardly seen any. There are weirdos on youtube who think of the WWE version of ECW as ECW. Which is kinda sad.

ECW was simply amazing. I wish WWE never tried to "revive" it. Just let it stand as is, to be forever enjoyed on tapes and DVDs. Heyman should always be revered for what he did with that promotion. Indy wrestling at its absolute best.

 

[Aquaman6686]

I agree with you 100%. Actually, I discovered it the same way and had the same reaction you did.

I can't stand these wannabe smarks that don't like the real ECW. Good thing I've hardly seen any. There are weirdos on youtube who think of the WWE version of ECW as ECW. Which is kinda sad.

ECW was simply amazing. I wish WWE never tried to "revive" it. Just let it stand as is, to be forever enjoyed on tapes and DVDs. Heyman should always be revered for what he did with that promotion. Indy wrestling at its absolute best.

The WWE version of ECW wasn't ECW at all. WWECW was actually good, and not garbage wrestling. The original ECW was a second-rate indy promotion that was extremely lucky to last as long as it did. Everyone with half a brain got out as soon as they could and went to either WCW or WWE. The original ECW had great matches on rare occasions, but their "extreme" matches took attention away from their few legitimate talents. Only Rob Van Dam actually had talent and was dumb enough to stay. Jericho, Benoit, Malenko, Guerrero, and the Dudleyz all got out earlier and made out better than they would have otherwise. If RVD had left ECW in 1997 or 1998, he would have been a much bigger star than he turned out to be.

 

[Shotaro]

I enjoyed it for what it was, but at that point I was a teenager, i doubt I would enjoy it now since my tastes have changed dramatically. I have fond memories of it, but I would not watch it now and in all honesty I wish it hadn't existed, look at the crap it has spawned. CZW is a disgrace, it is just blood for the sake of blood. Can blood add something to a match? Absolutely. Do you need it for most matches? No way in hell. Ric Flair went OTT far too often and for me it has ruined a lot of his old matches.

ECW was great at the time for teenagers, now it just seems crass and vulgar. Also WWEs attempt to "bring it back" sucked!

 

[Барбоса]

Much of the appeal of ECW was as a counter-culture to the Big Two of WWF and WCW for wrestling wise it was very much a mixed bag. Heyman and co. could expose new/underused talents and different styles to a wider audience, several of which caught on within the Big Two. However, for every Austin, Malenko, Jericho, Benoit and Foley that has given a chance to shine, there was a New Jack turning wrestling into a complete abomination perhaps only one step above backyard massacres.

People tend to look back at ECW with rose-tinted glasses. For all the good stuff, there was also a lot of rubbish and when all that rubbish was stripped away, what did you get? What was the best exponent of what people think ECW was?

One Night Stand 2005

 

[ECW Dan Selby]

The only people who think ECW was good are idiots. Sorry, you've outed yourself.

Very ignorant. Climb out of your backside for a moment.

ECW was very unique. Did it damage the sport long-term? Quite possibly.

Did it help shape the Monday Night Wars? Of course it did! The high-octane style was something that both WWF and WCW clearly recreated (or ripped off, depending on your outlook on business).

ECW changed professional wrestling whether you like it or not. You can't undo what happened and what was learnt.

Also, yeah, Jericho and the likes were there for a 'cup of coffee'. But Bischoff/Vince picked this guys up FROM ECW. There's no guarentee WWE/WCW would have ended up with these guys if it wern't for the exposure in ECW.

It does look rather dated now, but no one can deny how far they got given their tiny budget (which, incidentally, was smashed no end).

 

[Hollywood Naitch]

I enjoyed ECW. Not all of it, but some of it.

The really extreme matches like the Tapai Death Matches I don't want to see. But give me the RVD vs Jerry Lynn matches, give me Guerrero v Malenko, give me The Eliminators and The Dudleyz, Raven and Dreamer, Tanaka and Awesome and I am loving it.

ECW did take the violence too far, with guys like New Jack and Sandman who have no wrestling skills and relied on simply smashing people's faces in, but there was alot of stuff for people to enjoy on the shows, depending on what sort of things you enjoy.

I watch old ECW shows a hell of a lot more than I watch old clips of 80s or early 90s WWF/WCW because it entertains me more. I like seeing RVD's creativity, Taz detroying everyone and the controversial storylines like Raven stealing Sandman's family, or the long-running Raven and Dreamer angle. It's great stuff.

It's true that most of the wrestlers got out of ECW as soon as one of the big 2 offered them a deal, but why wouldn't? Many of those guys are extremely grateful for the opportunity that Paul Heyman gave them, such as Stone Cold, who was furious at the way WCW treated him and used his anger to get himself over in ECW and earn himself a spot in WWE, Chris Jericho- who still praises ECW to this day, Rey Mysterio who was able to showcase his high-flying in ECW before heading to WCW full-time and guys like Taz, Raven and many others who just were not given a chance anywhere else.

Thats what Heyman did, he gave wrestlers who noone else wanted a chance, and it payed off for alot of them as they moved on to bigger and better things.

ECW filled a gap in the market in the 90s, it was relevant and fresh at the time. Now, a promotion like that wouldn't be successful or ground-breaking, but ECW was. But it's time to move on. I don't want to see any more of these "ECW reunion shows" with guys far past their prime trying to cling on to memories. We have DVDs and YouTube for that.

But, if you never liked ECW...don't watch ECW clips. There is space in the world for fans of ECW to enjoy their memories, and same for fans of old WWF and WCW to re-watch their favourite matches.

 

[JJohns]

The problem with ECW (I was in my late teens to early-20s during ECW's heyday and fall) was the fact that for every match that would today be considered a dream match to a wrestling fan, that they had three or four matches that were, in effect, garbage. This was a company that catered to one sect of the wrestling fanbase for the most part.

Take a look at the guys that were there for years, and then take a look at the guys that were only there for a cup of coffee. The guys that were there for years either burned bridges with World Championship Wrestling or were guys that weren't considered good enough to make the jump to the World Wrestling Federation.

ECW benefited from the fact that Vince had a minor interest in them. Look at the wrestlers that would make appearances from time to time there, you would have the Hardys in their early days, after being WWF jobbers, going to ECW and then the Funkin' Dojo for seasoning. Jerry Lawler was cutting scathing promos in ECW that only benefited them.

But at then end of the day, ECW was a promotion that was built along the lines of Sex, Violence and dropping as many profanities as you wanted. There was no censor in that promotion, and not only was that the reason that it had it's cult following, but it was also why it ultimately failed. It got too big for it's niche and could not properly expand.

 

[Slyfox696]

I go to bed roughly 8 hours ago, and the idiotic statements come crawling out of the woodwork.

Someone liking ECW does not make them an idiot

In regards to pro wrestling, it does. Only idiot wrestling fans would think ECW was good. Anyone who understands anything about pro wrestling would understand ECW was garbage.

I loved ECW, because I was like fourteen when I started watching it...

And as a 14 year old, you probably knew nothing about pro wrestling. Kind of proving my point here.

Was ECW good? Lord, no.

This statement saved you from me having to insult your intelligence...

But ECW's crowning achievement isn't ECW itself, it's the way it helped shaped WWE's "Attitude Era." WWE's most prolific and profitable time was, in part, influenced by ECW.

...which is good, because this statement is ridiculous.

ECW didn't shape the Attitude Era. The nWo shaped the Attitude Era. WCW ripped the idea of the nWo from a company in Japan. The Attitude Era existed because WCW proved there was an 18-34 year old male fanbase who was willing to pay money for the product. Had that never happened, Attitude Era would never have happened. It's that simple.

Regardless of how long they were there, ECW was a medium for guys like Jericho, Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, and Mysterio to get noticed.

Except they had already been noticed. As I mentioned, Benoit already had worked for WCW, as had Mysterio. Do you really think the name "Guerrero" wasn't known by WCW before Eddie went to ECW Really?

Would Chris Jericho be where he is today if not for the spotlight ECW shined on him? I like to think yes, but we really don't know.

Yes, we do know. The spotlight was also on Mike Awesome, but he wasn't good enough to do anything with it.

That's the difference between Jericho and ECW guys. Jericho was going to be a star, regardless of where he spent a brief amount of time before going to WCW. Jericho made himself known to wrestling fans across the country in WCW, and made himself a main-eventer in the WWE. ECW had nothing to do with it, most wrestling fans didn't have the first clue who Jericho was before his time in WCW.

What about guys like Rob Van Dam

What about him? He was a terrible worker.

Taz, and Lance Storm who didn't leave ECW first chance they got?

What about them? They never got over in front of a national wrestling audience. Who cares about them? Get back to me when they got over in front of a national audience and weren't horrible in-ring workers.

What about Steve Austin? WWE took notice of him in ECW

Yes, those years he spent in WCW working as a United States champion and half of a very good tag team had nothing to do with it.

Steve Austin was going to the WWF at some point. He worked in ECW because he needed a paycheck while he was healing from his injury. Once Austin was healthy, he was going to the WWF.

ECW's legacy and true contribution to pro-wrestling was not it's matches or even it's product at all, it's the (few good) talent it produced and influence it had on the WWE.

But it didn't. Like KB says later in this thread, OVW produced guys like Orton and Cena...are we going to say OVW was a great promotion with a great legacy? Of course not. Just like Guerrero and Jericho, Orton had a known family member and Cena was so talented he made himself a main-eventer.

ECW's legacy to pro wrestling is fooling a bunch of Internet fans into thinking it actually had a legacy worth remembering. And I blame the WWE for that as much as anyone. If it hadn't been for the Rise and Fall of ECW DVD, ECW would be just a bleep on most wrestling fans' radar.

Does anybody else see the irony in SlyFox's idiocy disguised as responses?

You see, as much as he likes to run down ECW, his posts actually have a lot in common with ECW, for his posts so far have been garbage. They're poorly thought out, poorly written, and feature poor arguments. They're an alternative to intelligent, rational, mature responses. That's right, they're the gay porn/dog shit/ECW of posts.

Tough words from someone to scared to actually debate any of the points I made.

But to respond to the OP, most people that I know that hate ECW do so because it blew. Hard. "The most talented wrestling" you had ever seen? Really? What, exactly, was the talent? You could go into any low end bar in the country and see that stuff on a typical weekend. At least there, you'd get realistic results from the weapons usage. Ok, I get that the cruiserweights had some flashy moves, but there was still no substance. That's why the talented guys that ECW had left the first milisecond that WWF or WCW saw that talent and offered them a contract.

Wait wait wait...let me see if I have this right. You say my posts are garbage, and then you agree with almost everything I said. Think about how stupid that makes you look.

Why do I hate ECW?

Because your IQ is in the triple digits.

I guess it all comes down to what your understanding of 'wrestling' is. Take Rey Mysterio, one of the finest in ring performers of all time, yet there were people who couldn't stand his work in WCW, they simply didn't get it. There was no ring psychology, no story told, just a bunch of acrobatics. There are many pro wrestlers who would consider this to lack the true art of professional wrestling.

Wait, what?

If you think Mysterio matches have no psychology and don't tell a story, either from his WCW days or his WWE days, you obviously have no idea what psychology or telling a story is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm proud of you for recognizing the crap which came out of ECW, but your statement is flat out wrong. I'm HOPING your statement is reflective of what you've heard other people say about Mysterio, and not actually your own opinion on the matter.

I think the reason they don't get the respect is that almost anyone can go out and take those weapon shots and blade and fall from the scaffold. There isn't much skill in that.

That's definitely a major part of it, though it doesn't address the real problem.

Yes, anyone can do those things which means there isn't much skill in it...which is proof it's terrible pro wrestling. Great wrestlers are incredibly skilled at what they do. Pro wrestling is an art. Now when I say that, most people will immediately think to the different types of holds and moves a wrestler does, but that's not what I'm saying. The art in pro wrestling is being able to make people care about YOU, not what you do.

John Cena is the greatest pro wrestler in America, without question, and arguably the greatest in the world. Why? Because people care about John Cena. They don't care about the Attitude Adjustment, they don't care about the top rope legdrop...they care about John Cena. Cena is so good in the ring, he can make the audience do what he wants. He can turn an audience that is booing him into his best friends (see last week and his comments on Eve Torres). He can play the babyface, and still do it in a way to make people hate him (see his match at One Night Stand against RVD). John Cena can make people care about him.

The guys ECW was known for? Fans didn't care about THEM, they cared about the moves and the nonsensical violence. As long as someone was getting hit over the head with a stop sign, they didn't care who it was. As long as someone was bleeding, the fans didn't care who it was. An idiot can go out, throw himself in barbwire, and get ECW fans to say "he's hardcore". Heck, it was documented on the Rise and Fall DVD the moment Dreamer got over with the ECW crowd was when he took shot after shot with a cane to his back. Fans didn't care about Tommy Dreamer, they just cared he was willing to be the victim of violence.

That, as much as anything, is why ECW is so overrated. They didn't create characters people cared about, they just found guys who were willing to take violent shots and do flips. People cared about Hogan, they cared about Austin, they care about Cena. That's why the WWE is the undisputed #1 wrestling promotion, and ECW went out of business in less than 10 years.

If you guys ever look at the ages of the people who typically hate on ECW, they're usually not old enough to have remembered watching it.

Unfortunately for you, I DO remember watching it.

So the rest of your post about people following parrots is rendered irrelevant.

There was also a sense of believability in their product. The fans didn't use ******ed words to describe their liking of the product such as "entertaining."

Wait, what?

Describing why you enjoy pro wrestling as "entertaining" is ******ed? How do you figure that? Do you watch pro wrestling for reasons other than being entertained? Or did you just say something stupid, and need me to point it out to you?

That's one of the problems with wrestling today, WWF in the 80's and WWF/WCW for the first half of the 90's. They worked such ******ed gimmicks, angles and their matches were so sterile for the most part, nobody would could honestly suspend disbelief.

Yes, those piles of cash McMahon slept on every night of Hulkamania...clear indicators no one bought into what the WWF was selling.

Get out of here with that nonsense. Hulkamania is still the most important era in pro wrestling history, even more so than Attitude. People believed it, and were entertained by it.

Now a days, the same shit goes on and to justify the fact you can't reasonably believe in their product you have to call it "entertaining."

It's pro wrestling, a TV show. Everyone knows it isn't real. So their job IS to be entertaining.

Wrestling isn't supposed to be "entertaining," it's supposed to make you believe it's as real as a heart-attack (even if you really know it's not) and captivated in the product.

That's ridiculous. I don't watch the NFL because it's as real as a heart-attack, I watch the NFL because it entertains me.

I think you made a serious mistake in which word you used to explain your disgust with quality pro wrestling.

Look at when Stone Cold got crucified on Undertaker's symbol. I wonder where they got that idea from?

Jesus of Nazareth? Just a guess though...

There's been wrestlers with little to no skill and have yet to stretch they move pool make it far into the business. I mean, Hogan did the same moves his whole career. He had very little skill outside the mic and only reason he went anywhere was cuz he "had the look." Another good yet popular and cliche example, John Cena. Sure, he can work the mic when he wants, can get the crowd to react, and rarely uses other moves out of his comfort zone. But that's it. His movepool has drastically shrunk since his early days. Oh, he also "has the look." Other than that, nothing.

You obviously are joking or know nothing about wrestling if you think Hogan and Cena have little skill.

Hogan is a terrific example of a guy who got over without skill.

Yes, unless you count things like psychology, storytelling, selling, charisma, workrate...then suddenly Hogan becomes arguably the greatest wrestler in history.

But only if you count the important things. I'm guessing you're more of a "if he doesn't perform 435407637987389 different offensive moves, he sucks" kind of person. You know, someone who knows nothing about pro wrestling.

I agree with you 100%. Actually, I discovered it the same way and had the same reaction you did.

I can't stand these wannabe smarks that don't like the real ECW.

I would argue the "wannabe smark" label falls much more easily across the shoulders of people who try to tell others ECW was anything other than garbage.

Heyman should always be revered for what he did with that promotion.

Absolutely. I know I ALWAYS revere the guy who ran a company so poorly they go out of business in less than ten years during one of the most financially successful eras in history, both in the industry he's working in and across the country as a whole.

Very ignorant. Climb out of your backside for a moment.

No, very accurate. Try to keep up.

ECW was very unique.

Absolutely...until you remember they stole their business model from FMW. And that there have been hardcore promotions before and after ECW.

So, really, not unique at all. The fan base was unique, the promotion was not.

Also, yeah, Jericho and the likes were there for a 'cup of coffee'. But Bischoff/Vince picked this guys up FROM ECW. There's no guarentee WWE/WCW would have ended up with these guys if it wern't for the exposure in ECW.

Yeah there is. WCW and WWF/E have picked up a lot of talent that WASN'T in ECW. That's the whole point of minor league promotions. The big boys take what they want and leave what they don't. That's the whole point of minor leagues.

 

[ShinobiMusashi]

The only people who think ECW was good are idiots. Sorry, you've outed yourself.

ECW was a rinky dink 2-bit promotion, that has been blown WAY out of proportion, both in terms of how relevant it really was and how good it was. ECW was crap. It was poorly run, poorly booked and featured poor talent. Anyone with even a SHRED of ability got out of there as soon as they could. It didn't appeal to wrestling fans, it appealed to people whose mental stability I seriously question. Anyone who thinks wrestling is about falling off of high things and hitting each other in the head with trash cans is an idiot.

Of course all of the ECW apologists will starting whining, "what about Malenko and Mysterio and Guerrero and Jericho"? Yes, what about them? They were there for a cup of coffee, and got the hell out as soon as they found another promotion who could actually offer them a decent job.

ECW was garbage, and it amazes me that people can still think otherwise.

I'm an MMA guy. I loved ECW back in the day, and when they went under I stopped watching wrestling altogether.

Being a person who appreciates real wrestling(like Randy Couture, Rulon Gardner, Mark Kerr, Kurt Angle's 96 olympic run)I think it is funny how pro wrestling people try to say that the ECW wasn't wrestling. None of pro wrestling is wrestling. Choreographed, assisted lift slams, open fisted punches, stomp kicks. You can tell me "It isn't fake it's predetermined, and there is a big difference!" all you want, but at the end of the day pro wrestling is fake. Take some real punches to the face, a real german suplex, and a few soccer kicks and then tell me the difference between fake, and predetermined.

The same people who say that real wrestling is too boring, are the same people who say that ECW wasn't wrestling. It's just funny to me when you step back and look at it.

ECW was doing Lucha Libre in America when nobody else would give it a real chance to shine. WCW followed their lead. ECW gave technical wrestlers 30 minute matches when nobody else would without some goofy ass gimmick. Chris Jericho stuck around for more than a cup of coffee, and the ECW was responsible for discovering him. Mic Foley seen him perform in Japan, and told Paul Heyman that he needed to bring him over asap, and Paul brought him in and gave him the time in the ring to showcase his skills without some goofy gimmick shoved down everyone's throat. ECW wrestlers were tougher than any other federation. They could take bumps, and put on intense matches without getting injured.

As far as it being overrated, and overhyped, or just the idea that wrestling purists hate it, I don't really care. I was there to live through it, and I don't really care what other people think about it. It was a good time, and I will always look back on the ECW with fond memories. I'm not going to argue with anybody because I don't really care who else likes it or not. I'm willing to bet that the people who hate the ECW probobly hate all of the other things that I love, like Pantera, The Friday the 13th movie series, and Sega video game consoles.

It really doesn't bother me at all. ECW was for me, and if you didn't/don't like it who cares? As far as insulting me for liking it, you are just making yourself look bad. Me personally, I would never insult someone for liking something, or question their mental stability. Kind of rude really.

Some of you guys have just been listening to Jim Cornette too much. He is just jelous because nobody ever talks about Smoky Mountain(which was awesome imo).

ECW never had a Steamboat vs Savage, but they were better than the WWF, and WCW from late 95 to 99 in my opinion. Nobody was better than the Rock, or Steve Austin, but as a whole, ECW was better. That is just my opinion. If you don't agree that is ok. I'm not going to question your mental stability, I'm better than that.

 

[Slyfox696]

I'm an MMA guy. I loved ECW back in the day, and when they went under I stopped watching wrestling altogether.

Being a person who appreciates real wrestling(like Randy Couture, Rulon Gardner, Mark Kerr, Kurt Angle's 96 olympic run)I think it is funny how pro wrestling people try to say that the ECW wasn't wrestling. None of pro wrestling is wrestling. Choreographed, assisted lift slams, open fisted punches, stomp kicks. You can tell me "It isn't fake it's predetermined, and there is a big difference!" all you want, but at the end of the day pro wrestling is fake. Take some real punches to the face, a real german suplex, and a few soccer kicks and then tell me the difference between fake, and predetermined.

That's quite the rant...unfortunately, you're missing the point.

I never once said pro wrestling was the same thing as freestyle or Greco-Roman wrestling. They are completely different, I'm well aware of that fact. But ECW wasn't pro wrestling. That's what I've been saying.

The same people who say that real wrestling is too boring, are the same people who say that ECW wasn't wrestling. It's just funny to me when you step back and look at it.

Now that you understand what I'm saying, is it still really that funny?

ECW was doing Lucha Libre in America when nobody else would give it a real chance to shine. ECW gave technical wrestlers 30 minute matches when nobody else would without some goofy ass gimmick. Chris Jericho stuck around for more than a cup of coffee, and the ECW was responsible for discovering him. Mic Foley told Paul Heyman about him, and Paul brought him in and gave him the time in the ring to showcase his skills without some goofy gimmick shoved down everyone's throat. ECW wrestlers were tougher than any other federation. They could take bumps, and put on intense matches without getting injured.

I'm sorry, I just get the feeling you're serious here. I sure hope not, Mr. MMA.

As far as it being overrated, and overhyped, or just the idea that wrestling purists hate it, I don't really care. I was there to live through it, and I don't really care what other people think about it. It was a good time, and I will always look back on the ECW with fond memories.

Well, then I know how to categorize you.

I'm willing to bet that the people who hate the ECW probobly hate all of the other things that I love, like Pantera, The Friday the 13th movie series, and Sega video game consoles.

Haven't listened to much Pantera, but have enjoyed what I heard, and I still play Sega games from time to time.

Sorry, Mr. MMA, you're not really that unique. You just have poor taste in pro wrestling.

As far as insulting me for liking it, you are just making yourself look bad. Me personally, I would never insult someone for liking something, or question their mental stability. Kind of rude really.

If you think ECW was good, you're an idiot. It's okay to like terrible things (I still watch Saved by the Bell, for example), but if you think it was high quality you're an idiot.

Some of you guys have just been listening to Jim Cornette too much.

I've never once heard Jim Cornette speak on ECW. Pretty certain that isn't it.

He is just jelous because nobody ever talks about Smoky Mountain(which was awesome imo).

You mean the promotion Jericho worked in with Lance Storm before ECW? Weren't you trying to tell me before ECW discovered Jericho? Let's review:

ECW was responsible for discovering him

Yup.

So despite the fact Jericho and Storm both worked for Cornette in Smokey Mountain Wrestling (Cornette, of course, being a Hall of Fame caliber manager in the NWA for years, and had worked with both the NWA and WWF), ECW was the one to discover Jericho?

Yeah, I'm going to have to go ahead and say you're wrong. And that's not even getting into Jericho's work in Mexico and Japan.

ECW never had a Steamboat vs Savage

Or someone even half of their quality.

but they were better than the WWF, and WCW from late 95 to 99 in my opinion.

That's why the WCW and WWF were making money hand over fist, and ECW was busy going bankrupt. This is what I'm talking about when I say only idiots think ECW was good.

That is just my opinion.

It's a really terrible opinion. Sometimes, it's downright false.

If you don't agree that is ok. I'm not going to question your mental stability, I'm better than that.

Or you know you're wrong. That's what I'm guessing.

 

[AndThat'sTheBottomLine]

I was too young to watch ECW in its heyday so I youtubed it and can honestly say it was horrible. I like hardcore but there is such a thing as too much hardcore. Then there's the ECW "originals" that whined to WWE and then TNA about wanting to bring it back. Yea see Hardcore Justice and WWECW. Both sucked as bad as the original. The so called ECW "originals" are about as talented as a bag of shit. RVD is the most talented of them and even he sucks as a worker. Trust me we still would've had SCSA without ECW because after WCW fired him ECW AND WWF called him up but he chose ECW because they offered him more. Same with guys like Jericho and Mysterio and Eddie. Then they saw how bad it was and got the hell out. Can't say I blame them. You saw what happened to Beniot after all those bumps to the head. I rest my case.

 

[rkovoices]

You obviously are joking or know nothing about wrestling if you think Hogan and Cena have little skill.

I'm both joking and not. I put mic skills, charisma, working the crowd, story telling, and anything similar all into the same category. If I say anything along those lines, it's usually all that. Now, I was never really a Hogan fan so my comment was somewhat biased. I will say that he could do all those things, but when it came to the wrestling department I thought he lacked. Same goes for Cena. I will say that I was a Cena fan once, long time ago. But, I stopped being a fan of his once I noticed his matches got very repetitive. I still think he does great in working the crowd but, in my eyes, his wrestling skill has kind of diminished from his early days in the WWE. Overall, I think they are/were better on the mic and in promos and with the crowd than they are and/or were in the ring.