Why did face Hogan wrestle like such a prick?

[SilverBullet1929]

Bret never had a problem with Hogan because Bret knew who was the guy who brought in the fans and thus brought in the money. Bret has admitted that. Bret has a problem with Hogan's lame way of doing business. When it came time to do Bret vs Hogan in 1993, Hogan bitched out and left. Seems like Hogan was scared of Bret, which is shocking considering who Hogan is and how popular he was and still is. Hogan is clearly the most insecure person on Earth.

 

[THTRobtaylor]

With Bret, remember that Hogan had always had a handle on how much fan mail and how popular Bret was... while Hogan was big, Bret was the choice of a lot of people, even going back to the 87 time period. While he was smaller, he had what Hulk never would, the "movie star" looks, technical ability and a full head of hair!

By the time Bret was champ, the business had changed, Hogan's type were quickly dying out and thus losing to Bret could in his eyes perhaps have irreprebly damaged his career... after all this was "small" Hogan as it was post steroid scandal... Jacked up 87 Hogan vs Bret, there is a real challenge but skinny 93 Hogan with a Black Eye wouldn't have been able to stop Bret going over if that was the plan and wouldn't have been able to look good.

The Ventura/Heenan points are well made... I remember hearing Heenan asking "Are you proud of this Monsoon?" and it ringing true, Gorilla would phrase it that the Hulk-Up was like Popeye...he'd had all he could stands... and he would then give the heels their own medicine.

At the end of the day Hogan's "dick behavior was often more to do with keeping his status than anything else... This is a guy who only really lost a title clean to Warrior... once... every other time he needed interference, a mcguffin or an excuse as to why he came up short. The biggest "dick" move was blowing off working with Rick Rude... Put Rude in that slot that Slaughter got and 91 and 92 get a lot more interesting with a Savage/Rude team/split and draw a shit load more than Sarge did...then you would have gotten Rude v Savage... an even better fued...

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

Read back what I said.

I said Hogan was afraid of facing Hart because he was afraid he would get booed out of the building, which I have no doubt he would have been at that time. This was 1993 and people had been sick of Hogan for a year plus at this stage, his pops just weren't what they used to be.

I don't disagree that Hogan's act wasn't what it once was by the early-mid 90s, I totally know where you're coming from on that. My only argument is your opinion that Hogan was "afraid of this" or "afraid of that" in regards to who he was going to wrestle in his final WWF outing. This is my opinion, we can easily look back in retrospect and say that Hogan and Hart was going to happen and should have happened. Would I have preferred a Hogan vs Hart match as opposed to Hogan and Yokozuna? You damn bet, I would have. I mean, even I scratch my head at why Hogan went and won the title from Yokozuna in that impromptu match. It was a WTF moment in some ways, I mean it doesn't offend me the way it does most people. But at least it was booked in a sense that fans (whom don't give a shit about the rumormill and only care about what they see on TV, which is how it really should be, let's be honest) saw Hogan get a lucky win, and I'm sure some of the fervent Hogan supporters thought Hogan would keep the WWF title at King Of The Ring, I was almost 11 years old at the time, and I thought that would happen.

All the while, Lex Luger was being groomed to become an ultra super heroic fan favorite in the same way Hogan had been for all those years. It was obvious that WWF's creative minds were still looking to fill that archetype even with Hogan gone. Bret Hart was coming off of a King Of The Ring win and it looked as if he was going to stay away from the title scene for a while. If there was such an urgency to get Bret Hart back into the title hunt, he could have simply taken Luger's spot to wrestle Yokozuna in a rematch. Therefore, that's why I always find the whole Hogan vs Hart scenario to be shotty. Again just my opinion, I'm not going to just presume that this is the case. But I'd rather take a stance and say I'm speculating than be so presumptuous and state that my opinion has to be fact. To be honest man, that's the feeling I'm getting from you. Not that I fault you for favoring Bret Hart because The Hitman was truly etching himself into the annals of legendary singles stardom by this time, but I think you're forgetting just what the mindset was at that time with Hogan freshly departing the scene and Luger being put into a similar role, which as we know ultimately failed.

​

Take a look at the following magazine covers, Hogan's nothing but a thumbnail at the top of the cover on the first magazine. Barely visible in comparison to the prominence Luger's got on this cover. Then for the SummerSlam 1993 recap issue of WWF Magazine, Luger is again taking center page, Bret Hart is nowhere to be seen. Not even mentioned to be honest. And we know Hogan was basically being phased out by this time as well, however there were some appearances of him in the magazine even after he stopped showing up on TV. Regardless, I think we all had a good feeling that Hogan was done after that squashing he got from Yokozuna.

​

Now take a look at this cover of the WWF Magazine, almost a year removed from King Of The Ring 1993, the WWF capitalized on the brutal defeat that Hulk Hogan, the fan favorite got from the rule breaking Yokozuna, yes it took outside interference to do it, but hey that's what heels do . Yoko couldn't even beat Bret fairly. Despite that, Yokozuna was an effective heel with his devious entourage of Jim Cornette and Mr. Fuji. And the fact that we have a cover that shows a precarious and defeated Hulk Hogan was a very effective way for Hogan to leave the WWF. And it seems like Vince was playing it safe with how Hogan went out, much like other previous face champions had. Which I am going to touch on at the end of this post. Now take a look at this magazine cover below of the WWF Magazine.

Here we have Bret Hart, coming full circle at WrestleMania and reclaiming what was his and check this amazing tidbit out, he BEAT the same guy who UNFAIRLY won the title from him the YEAR before! Could it be, is it possible that the WWF actually did some long term planning and decided that the whole rigmarole of Bret losing his title, having to get his mojo back with the King Of The Ring, while also dealing with family dissension concerning little brother Owen Hart was all part of making his awe inspiring win over Yokozuna for the World Title one year later all the more sweet a victory?

I would think so, for all we know, as far as Luger goes, he might have just been a red herring in this whole matter, and despite what rumor says, maybe there really never was any intention to make him a World Champion ever. Despite it looking that way, maybe Luger was just a way to show that the super heroic character wasn't going to work this time around, I'm really not sure. Again, I'm speculating, but I'm doing so with actual source such as those old time WWF magazine covers, that tell the story of what was going on during WWF programming, which is really what's relevant here. Not what you think you know "behind the scenes". Therefore I'm adding a weight to my argument, as opposed to you just citing what so many other members in our fellow IWC inner circle like to do.

Either way, Bret Hart found himself back on top just one year later, and back then before the internet fucked a lot of what made wrestling awesome for its fan base. I was emotionally invested in Bret Hart, and enjoyed seeing this rise back to the top unfold over a year's time. If Hogan had been involved any more than he already had been, it would have made things less memorable I think. The fact that you had two competitors in Yokozuna and Bret Hart battling each other at back to back WrestleManias was something unseen and very special then. Let's not screw up the nostalgia by gobbling up internet rumor garbage, because we honestly really don't know what was going on backstage.

Bottomline, Bret Hart got his redemption against Yokozuna, and Hulk Hogan looked less invincible hence the way he left WWF and lost his then-final WWF Title.

 

[TheHitMark-SirJoseOle]

At the end of the day Hogan's "dick behavior was often more to do with keeping his status than anything else... This is a guy who only really lost a title clean to Warrior... once... every other time he needed interference, a mcguffin or an excuse as to why he came up short.

Guess who else only lost the WWF title fairly on only one occasion and you could even put an asterisk on that? Bret Hart. Reign 1 ended via salt to the eyes from Mr. Fuji, Reign 2 ended when Helen Hart threw Bret's towel in for him, and keep in mind it was supposed to be Davey Boy Smith that threw the towel in but since he was knocked out, he couldn't. Owen had to feign a concern and regret for his enmity with Bret to lull their mother into doing this. Reign 3 you could question as well, the Iron Man match was only supposed to be 60 minutes, instead it went into sudden death and Shawn Michaels got the only fall outside of the original 60 minutes to win the match. Reign number 4 came at an end thanks to Steve Austin. Reign 5, well we all know about that, the Montreal Screwjob. Love Bret to death but let's be honest, if the screwjob was actually legit, what nonsense. My money still says a work, just because of how conveniently everything played out.

Now that's not to say that I didn't like Bret Hart's story lines involving those losses, there was great stuff going on, it led to great things. But if you're going to call out Hogan for only losing the title clean on one occasion, let's also not shirk other facts such as Bret Hart's title wins all ending in controversial circumstances in regards to storyline. Bret was pretty well protected on many of those booking moves, let's be honest. Need the proof?

Bret Hart Vs Yokozuna - WWF WrestleMania IX

Bret Hart vs Bob Backlund - WWF Survivor Series 1994

Bret Hart vs HBK - WWF WrestleMania XII

Bret Hart vs Sid - WWF Monday Night RAW - February 17, 1997

Bret Hart Vs Shawn Michaels- WWF Survivor Series 1997

The fact that Hogan lost the title cleanly as a face is saying something, even if it was once and against another face. Bob Backlund as a face never lost the title cleanly, he was protected and Bruno Sammartino's second reign ended with Billy Graham putting his foot on the ropes. Pretty much all faces are going to be protected. Period. And of all the people we're bantering about, Hogan and Sammartino were the only two baby faces I can think of out of the four I just discussed that lost a title cleanly at least once. Sammartino's first title loss came as a result of an upset from Ivan Koloff. Backlund's only clean title loss came as a heel, playing the tried and true role of the transitional champion when Diesel beat him three days after Survivor Series 1994.

If you need the proof, here you go:

Bruno Sammartino Vs Billy Graham - WWWF Championship Match - WWWF in Baltimore - April 30, 1977

Bob Backlund Vs The Iron Sheik - WWF Championship Match - WWF at MSG - December 26, 1983

On a side note, a Rude vs Hogan program would have been awesome but again who knows the real reasons why it never happened. Like comrade_mario, you're passing speculation off as fact. You or I really don't know, maybe Hogan dismissed Rude, maybe he didn't. It's all speculation, but again, I'm more than aware that I'm speculating…nothing more nothing less. But I'm providing substance with that speculation. I'm backing my points up, sure we know that Bret Hart's style is a more athletic one than Hulk Hogan, that's a no shit sherlock statement. However, you're going to need to do a lot better than that to convince us how that holds too much merit, when we are after all talking about an endeavor that yes requires physical endurance, prowess and capability but is predetermined. I loved wrestling as much as the next chap, but let's stop talking about this like it's an actual competition as opposed to an exhibition.

Basically, I'm a Hogan mark, I won't lie, I also was a fervent Bret Hart supporter back in the day too, but I am not going to kid myself and think that these people don't have egos, and I'm not just talking about Hogan. If we're going to blame Hogan for this, let's not forget he has some company. It's always easy to want to point the figures solely at him. But let's be honest he can't be the only guilty party. Just think about that for a second.

P.S. Here is a face Bret Hart complaining about his 60 minute Iron Man match becoming a 62 minute Iron Man match, again I can bend and flex with this angle a bit more in the argument, because it did eventually pave a way to Bret having that memorable heel run. But just the same, Bret's reigns were protected, even more than Hogan's.

Bret Hart Interview In Germany After WrestleMania XII

 

[dWs]

Sammartino wasn't exactly a clean cut babyface. Look at his match against Larry Zbyszko at MSG in 1980. Larry kept cheap-shotting, so Bruno finally snapped, threw the rule book out the window and decided to beat the tar our of Larry. But in that case, it was justified.

The problem with Hogan was he would result to rule-breaking tactics even if the other guy didn't. The common excuse we were supposed to swallow was : "oh, the bad guy would've done that to Hogan, so turnabout's fair play". So the problem, to me, wasn't necessarily that Hogan would choke, bite, scratch, etc, but that he did it WAY too often and without provocation.

I just slammed Mr. Wonderful, now I'll SCRATCH him! Doesn't work so well.

 

[SilverBullet1929]

Sammartino wasn't exactly a clean cut babyface. Look at his match against Larry Zbyszko at MSG in 1980. Larry kept cheap-shotting, so Bruno finally snapped, threw the rule book out the window and decided to beat the tar our of Larry. But in that case, it was justified.

The problem with Hogan was he would result to rule-breaking tactics even if the other guy didn't. The common excuse we were supposed to swallow was : "oh, the bad guy would've done that to Hogan, so turnabout's fair play". So the problem, to me, wasn't necessarily that Hogan would choke, bite, scratch, etc, but that he did it WAY too often and without provocation.

I just slammed Mr. Wonderful, now I'll SCRATCH him! Doesn't work so well.

Exactly this. Hogan seemed to do it beyond just a face having to occassionally pull a dirty trick. He also wasn't like Flair who was supposed to be a notoriously dirty player even as a face. Hogan was a noble never do wrong hero, who apparently had his fingers crossed behind his back.

Going back to my original post, him spitting across the ring at his opponents at the very start of his match at the 1989 Survivor Series pretty much summed it up. There's no provocation there cuz the match hadn't even gotten under way yet. And how would spitting give him any type of advantage? It wouldn't. Its just cheap and disgusting from a guy who's supposed to be the nicest of the nice.

 

[FlairFan2003]

It isnt uncommon for a clear, hero or face character to employ some brawling tactics, etc against clear villains, fans always embrace seeing the bad guy get a taste of his own medicine. Dusty Rhodes did many of the same things in the 80s, Randy Savage clearly pulled the tights for leverage to pin Ric Flair at WrestleMania 8.

Hogan's character back then promoted many admirable personal qualities (much like the early champion days of Brett Hart or John Cena, the guy who basically is the Brett Hart of the new millenium). He didnt back down from the heels and showed he wasnt imtimidated by them by being willing to fight on their terms. Again, fans always like seeing the bad guy get a taste of his own medicine.

With regards to Royal Rumble 92, I think WWE made the mistake of thinking fans would naturally boo anyone percieved as going against Hogan. The appeal of The Royal Rumble match however is the idea that teammates and friends may have to break alliances and go through each other to win, its what draws fans to that match the most. In fact earlier in that match Hogan had already brawled with Roddy Piper though the two were on good terms storyline wise and Flair had battled Undertaker, one of his main allies leading into the match. Sid Justice, seeing Hogan distracted by Flair during the bout's finish, did exactly what fans expected, he dumped Hogan, the way the match was promoted and structured it didnt appear Sid did anything wrong (no one cared a few minutes earlier when Flair kneed Sid from behind which helped eliminate Savage as the battled). Hogan's post elimination temper tantrum and subsequent argument with Sid which lead to his elimination and Flair's title win didnt make sense to fans and came across as a heel like sore loser move by Hogan which caused him to be booed, it didnt look at all like a turncoat or villainess move by Sid which I think is what WWE had intended but executed very poorly.

 

[thebarber]

Hogan acted that way as this was the way he was booked.
Do people in 2013 still not realise the business is an entire "work" and wrestlers/entertainers do as the agents who map out the matches tell them to do.
Each match is supposed to be a story from the second they step through the curtain.
The reason Heenan and Ventura called Hogan on his heelish moves is because they were heel colour commentators, they are supposed to draw heat to bounce off the face play by play guy. Hogan used to also rake his nails down opponents backs also.

 

[MrMojoRisin]

In kayfabese, Hogan wrestled as a heel because he was the guy that was going to fight the bad guys on their terms and come out on top. The guys that would fight him had already gone through all the other good guys who did play by the rules, so when they got to him, he was going to go an eye for an eye to show them the error of their ways.

In reality, I think it's a lot more simple. Hogan spent the first several years of his career as a heel. His formative years. The years where he learned how to work. His act got over while he was working as a heel, and he simply stuck with what worked. What the fans obviously wanted from him.

Plus to a lesser degree, Hogan (while better than he's given credit for), was never considered a great 'worker'. I don't think he actually knew how to work as a clean cut babyface, and considering how over he was being a babyface that used heel tactics, I doubt he ever saw the need to try and learn how to work clean cut.

Why mess with something that's working?

 

[Christian Faith]

I had planned to start a new thread but I am glad I found this.

I personally still to this day do not understand why Hogan was made to look a hero for his actions in the 1992 Royal Rumble.

It was every man for himself and was for the freakin title yet when Sid eliminated Hogan we were meant to buy that Sid had just betrayed Hogan so Hogan was justified in acting like a bitch and pulling Sid over the top rope??

How the fuck did Sid "betray" Hogan? If anyone acted like a heel in that Rumble it was Hogan himself.

I really hated that Royal Rumble moment.